Elf racial running

[BadSkeelz]

Elf riding docs are available to the public, including all City Elves. Delf pride docs are not. So there's no real reason you NEED to play to those docs.

[Nyr]

It hasn't changed.  It has been there since the website was updated in April 2013.  Almost two years now.  We have a public city elf roleplay page and a public desert elf roleplay page.

[Fujikoma]

It hasn't changed.  It has been there since the website was updated in April 2013.  Almost two years now.  We have a public city elf roleplay page and a public desert elf roleplay page.

Hrmmmm, explains it, I started playing around back then. Probably read it and it stuck with me the whole time. Still, why is it city elves get the shitty documents? I suppose it makes sense from a survival standpoint, but then, so does riding (because let's face it, this whole sticking to one city, while being condemned to being criminals, guilty or not, is kinda, no. which is why there's hardly ever any elves in allanak, because the predictable happens), I'd say not stealing every damn thing but sometimes that can aid survival, if you're smart about it...

Just, what exactly determines what is playable and what is not? I suppose, not being bound by the documents any longer to pursue such slights, in a way, is kind of a relief, but in another way kind of wimpifies an already wimpy race further, which, as I've found, in Allanak, is pretty much just a way to insure future ass-whippings of increasing intensity. Truly, I thought in some ways I was breaking the (old) docs by my willingness to let things go, although, grudgingly, and only after great deliberation. It's not fun, it's not interactive, and it's not really feasible to play the prime suspect in everything that ever goes wrong ever, when you are so hampered by your ability to pick up and move to, you guessed it, another city or village. Maybe not your own home town, but something, with walls, and shops, and things similar to what you grew up around. About the only place you can go is the rinth, and stay there, for fucking ever, even if no one is around and it's boring, or you can fuck off, get tired out on the sands, and die of thirst because a full waterskin weighs thirty tons, or get eaten by something because your wimpy legs can't carry you further and you really don't have a supply of a certain consumable that could help you get through it because it's illegal in your city.

Further, the two clans you CAN join typically travel, or, well, one patrols and is stuck in an outpost that is frequently empty, and your inability to journey long distances makes you even MORE resented (if that were possible) in the Byn, and in Kurac, it gets you stuck in the outpost as everyone else moves on to do all kinds of fun, clanny stuff you can't join in on because you're nothing but a fucking joke who can't go anywhere without a goddamn tent. You can't join a clan that might be more fun to play in if you were say, stuck in one place, such as Salarr (which strangely hires breeds, durh), or Kadius (which, not my cup of tea, but some of you enjoy it), you have no fucking tribes you can join to give you any kind of buffer against the social pressures that attempt, quite frequently, to smash you out of existence because you're the one elf around. You can try to work around it, but when your contacts die, which they will, you're left with nothing, and the new crowd is going to be as stubborn and ornery as the old crowd, if not more so. You can keep it up for a little while, but unlike great merchant houses, you have no virtual backing that's respected anywhere.

It's a pain in the ass to play, and I really, really tried to make it work, parts of it were fun, but the real issue is, no other elves to RP with hardly. Breeds are annoying (seriously, fuck breeds) to deal with and your only real potential source of RP, and you can't trust a goddamn soul, ever, not that you can as a human of course, but you have some pretty solid actions that can be fallen back on pretty fucking easy. A human can take a shit on a rug and everyone wants to slap a medal on them and give them a promotion, along with an attendance trophy. An elf tries to offer you a great bargain on something for only a tiny amount of profit and "Oh, musta stole it, sound the alarms!", instead of, hey, I can get this thing on the cheap and have a few more sids to spend on whiskey and hookers.

[HavokBlue]

Since staff have already commented that they have no plans to codedly adjust city-elves and are in the (lengthy) process of working on fixing the clan situation, maybe we should focus the discussion on what could be done to fix the issues faced by the closed city-elf clans.

I never played in the Akai S'jir but my first PC was taken under the wing of LoD and his merry band of Jaxa Pah elves (in the clan's infancy, I think). Coincidentally, it was stupidly hard to codedly join the clan, and you couldn't app in outside of sponsored calls, so I'm not fully familiar with their documentation either.

[MeTekillot]

Are family role-call city elf tribes allowed to recruit? I mean, I guess they can't really since they aren't coded, but you know what I mean.

[HavokBlue]

I think the answer to that was 'no' and when I brought up the fact that coded city-elf tribes could recruit, the answer was still 'no'.

[MeTekillot]

Try to get you and however many family members you roll up with really skilled before all the other PCs stomp you into dust? Hope for some lucky strength rolls if you all don't pick pickpocket.

[solera]

Don't leave the 'rinth except on biz?

[i love toilets]

How do elves even survive in the rinth in the first place?

[Rathustra]

Elves don't need to change - the cities and their places in them do. Also I think to a much lesser extent that player attitudes and projections onto city elves need to change.

Something that constantly comes up in discussions about c-elves is their inability to ride, to join clans and go out and adventure in the wastes. I had never really considered any of these things as my concept/understanding of the race from being a player was that elves are, for the most part, married/tied to their territory and environment. I saw the intense fear of confined spaces, crowds and the city environment that d-elves experience naturally having a reflection in city elves being incredibly uncomfortable in wilderness/open environments. Where a desert elf can be stressed to unconsciousness by the sea of in-elven bodies and closed space of the Gaj (thanks for that animation, 'Looonsh), a city elf can be put to breaking point by the wide open horizons and lack of hiding places presented by the wastes.

It made sense to me that where a desert elf tribe is acutely aware of the ins and outs of their home turf - the cycles of the various plants and animals that live there, the best routes, choice safe spots and general intimate lore of their land, so to would a city elf tribe be at home in surviving entirely inside a city. Understand the flow of crowds, the location of resources and how to manage them, the various hidden routes and safe places.

This is what I refer to when I say the cities need to change. Not massively - I think currently enough is in place where c-elf PCs can and do exist. But making cities entertaining enough places to base a PC out of for humans and elves is obviously a prime objective.

I don't think the ride or desert run is needed, nor should be implemented because I don't think elves should be wandering between the various settlements in the game. I don't think the majority of players should either. But in both the case of elves and humans this is mostly done by indies and currently elves tend to just be indies, so the temptation to play a 'citizen of the known' PC can be quite strong.

[Flying Erdlu]

What Rathustra said.

This isn't a whole lot different of a debate that the one that has happened for the last 25 years. (holy crap, it's been that long since I first played this game?!?). There are always those who want to play the exception. I want an dwarf who's focus is to not have a focus. Or a noble who loves commoners. Or a half-giant who is smart. Or a gith who likes humans. (yes, the gith were a playable race for awhile, back in the day). Or a Fale who isn't an inbred foppish flake. Or a vegetarian halfling. (yes, also once playable).

This debate about wanting c.elves to be able to run in the sands isn't any different. We have racial guidelines for a reason. If everyone were allowed to play the exception, then why have races at all? You want an elf that can run in the sands, play a d.elf. You want one that likes the cities, play a c.elf. You want one that likes cities -and- likes to run in the sands...no, that isn't the way Zalanthan elves are.  You want a city elf that doesn't mind riding a kank beetle, no, because that isn't the way Zalanthan elves are. Don't like the way Zalanthan elves are, then find another race to play, because that is the way Zalanthan elves are.

At one point, there was not c.elf and d.elf difference. There was only Elf. The separation of the two made far more sense then, and still does. IMO.

[Fujikoma]

Elves don't need to change - the cities and their places in them do. Also I think to a much lesser extent that player attitudes and projections onto city elves need to change.

Something that constantly comes up in discussions about c-elves is their inability to ride, to join clans and go out and adventure in the wastes. I had never really considered any of these things as my concept/understanding of the race from being a player was that elves are, for the most part, married/tied to their territory and environment. I saw the intense fear of confined spaces, crowds and the city environment that d-elves experience naturally having a reflection in city elves being incredibly uncomfortable in wilderness/open environments. Where a desert elf can be stressed to unconsciousness by the sea of in-elven bodies and closed space of the Gaj (thanks for that animation, 'Looonsh), a city elf can be put to breaking point by the wide open horizons and lack of hiding places presented by the wastes.

It made sense to me that where a desert elf tribe is acutely aware of the ins and outs of their home turf - the cycles of the various plants and animals that live there, the best routes, choice safe spots and general intimate lore of their land, so to would a city elf tribe be at home in surviving entirely inside a city. Understand the flow of crowds, the location of resources and how to manage them, the various hidden routes and safe places.

This is what I refer to when I say the cities need to change. Not massively - I think currently enough is in place where c-elf PCs can and do exist. But making cities entertaining enough places to base a PC out of for humans and elves is obviously a prime objective.

I don't think the ride or desert run is needed, nor should be implemented because I don't think elves should be wandering between the various settlements in the game. I don't think the majority of players should either. But in both the case of elves and humans this is mostly done by indies and currently elves tend to just be indies, so the temptation to play a 'citizen of the known' PC can be quite strong.

Ok, I'll shut up about adventures on the sand and agree with this whole-heartedly and enthusiastically. Although I don't necessarily agree with Flying Erdlu's follow-up post.

[Harmless]

How do elves even survive in the rinth in the first place?

Basically the same way/reason they refuse to ride. They have natural skills/talents that allow them to. ...the problem is, they actually only have those "natural" elven skills/talents if their players(!) know what guild and subguild to pick, i.e., how to avoid the classic dangers of city life.

Being hunted? Hiding out is the only effective way to do this, and the only effective way to hide is to have the hide skill, in a city.

Need to exact revenge or coerce? Lethal threat is the only effective way to this, which means you need to be lethal somehow. With elven strength, poison is really the only effective way to do this.

Need to bribe someone? Making a lot of money is the only way to do this, etc etc etc.

But can a city elf do all these things alone? Of course not (unless they are just really that tireless of a player, which I have seen, but meh, fuck that), they need a TRIBE to do this.

So, in short, c elves survive in the rinth the same way any group of Zalanthans would -- by the skin of their fucking teeth, relying on each other for help.. assuming they even can.

So, being powerless as they are codedly, because so few dangerous c elf PCs actually exist, they actually DON'T survive in the rinth. In actuality, they get slaughtered like animals.

[Nyr]

I think the answer to that was 'no' and when I brought up the fact that coded city-elf tribes could recruit, the answer was still 'no'.

The answer to that was 'no'.  If the fact was brought up that coded city-elf tribes could recruit, the fact should have been (and as I recall, was) dismissed as irrelevant for several reasons.  We closed all open city-elf tribal groups.  They had problems.  One of those problems as reviewed by staff would be recruiting.  We have ideas for fixing city-elf tribes and new ones.  Having a full staff team makes it easier to get this accomplished more quickly.

This conversation has occurred several times in the past few months.  This is starting to feel like an "in one ear, out the other" kind of thing.  If you are passionate about elves, it would help to obtain some familiarity with the documentation on them before commenting on that documentation.  If you are passionate about discussing their tribal issues and how to fix them, it would help to understand and review previous threads.  You might have even been involved in them! 

For reference for anyone in this thread:

City-elf race page -- to get here, go to Characters, Races, then City Elf
City-Elf Roleplay -- to get here, go to Characters, Racial Roleplay, then City Elves.  This page has some differences from the Desert Elf page.  The Desert Elf page explains why at the top.
Desert elf race page -- to get here, go to Characters, Races, then Desert Elf
Desert elf roleplaying -- to get here, go to Characters, Racial Roleplay, then Desert Elves.



Previous threads discussing city elves and tribes in general, complete with staff input.

Allanaki City Elves (starts October 2013, drags on until a few months prior to the next thread on a similar subject)
Lots of argument around actual numbers (which, now that I have time, brings me to a project to review demographics stuff as it relates to tribes and cities). It is mentioned there that we don't allow tribe calls for players, and even some discussion then about how tribes should be able to recruit, and there's even a player mentioning how the notion of a tribe "recruiting" is a bizarre notion IC.  Jokes ensue about how there's no tribes for elves and you can't even make your own and if you could you totally would.  (We've discussed tribes more in-depth, recently--see below.)  This thread stretches on for months; we get a few months break before the next one.

City-elves and stuff. (September 2014, reviewing city-elves in general)

Key quotes and links:

We have discussed this issue before staff-side and there has even been some more recent talk about solutions. 

However, we've also discussed the issue of revealing things before their time, and this is one of those areas where (unfortunately) all you would really get to see from us is an acknowledgement that yeah, this sucks at this time.

What happened to Jaxa Pah and Akai Sjir?
More specifics on Jaxa Pah and its problems


More jokes about no tribes.  (Don't get me wrong, I love the meme, just pointing out that we have this, and then within a month, you can make your own.  No one has yet, by the way.)  Also closing off with a mention that this is on Welda's radar with regards to city-elves and them being a priority.  Not top priority, but up there.

Discussion of Tribal roles (October 26, going over changes allowing players to do player-created tribes provided they are approved)

We loosened up the restrictions because we felt that with some borders around what players could and should do with a tribe, it wouldn't reach the levels of abuse we saw in years past.  Even there, we have questions about what this changes, because apparently, tribes can't recruit.

Adhira's response about tribes.
Nyr's reply about why we did not just jam the pedal to the floor.
Nyr's response about how tribes work, ICly.

In short, it's probably safe to say city-elves would be easier to play with a tribe--see the docs, they start out saying that to an elf, tribe is key.  There are no city elf tribes open now.  Create one, then.  If you are not interested in that, you will need to exercise some patience and wait for one (or some) to be set up using the lessons we've learned from tribes that did not work out well.  We also had some staffing shortages up to and near the holidays (both due to holidays, RL circumstances, etc--which is why we did a staffing call, woo!) and we're back up to speed now.

[Patuk]

I should probably just put in an app for a tribal role call and stop procrastinating and floundering about with shortlived idiots.

[Fujikoma]

I don't really understand the distinction between a merchant house and an elven tribe. Both will rob you blind, both will murder you if you get in their way or step on their toes wrong, other than the latter being more cohesive with less betrayal as far as their insiders, I'm not sure what the point on the Akai being closed was, then again, I -did not- play in Tuluk very much when they were open, I've never been a member and I've not participated in any events that may have lead to their closure. I've also never had the experience of seeing the Jaxa Pah in action, aside from one or two elderly elves still kicking it from time to time. At the same time as I can see there could have been some issues, I feel like I really missed out on a number of interesting playing experiences.

I vote that after the elven tribes re-open, all the fucking merchant houses get closed for a documentation revamp to streamline their processes and look at what really doesn't work and doesn't fit into the setting, because fuck all humans, and revenge is sweet. After that, noble houses, then militias.

[Patuk]

I have played a year longer than you have and so actually got to play an Akai(which was fun,) and I'm not quite certain either. That said, the Akai are inexplicably wealthy, look down on violence, and are in deep with the tuluki templarate. Those last three points coupled with Liratheans still being a thing made it a little hard to do much else than rob people and tell them to pay up if they wanted it to stop.

[Rathustra]

I don't really understand the distinction between a merchant house and an elven tribe. Both will rob you blind, both will murder you if you get in their way or step on their toes wrong, other than the latter being more cohesive with less betrayal as far as their insiders, I'm not sure what the point on the Akai being closed was, then again, I -did not- play in Tuluk very much when they were open, I've never been a member and I've not participated in any events that may have lead to their closure. I've also never had the experience of seeing the Jaxa Pah in action, aside from one or two elderly elves still kicking it from time to time. At the same time as I can see there could have been some issues, I feel like I really missed out on a number of interesting playing experiences.

I vote that after the elven tribes re-open, all the fucking merchant houses get closed for a documentation revamp to streamline their processes and look at what really doesn't work and doesn't fit into the setting, because fuck all humans, and revenge is sweet. After that, noble houses, then militias.

One is run by humans and the other is run by elves.

[nauta]

Elves don't need to change - the cities and their places in them do. Also I think to a much lesser extent that player attitudes and projections onto city elves need to change.

(more stuff that's spot on)

Just anecdotal, but over a six month period playing in the rinth, I noticed a lot of c-elves come and go -fairly quickly- (they were probably all Patuk and Fuji having mad mudsex twinkfests with twitchy spicers).

It was a bit disappointing, since eastside seemed to not have something westside had, and in thinking about it I might propose that one issue was that there weren't too many ways to interface with the rest of the city, thus limiting the number and KINDS of plots available - the usual being the cat-and-mouse game with the AoD via stealing (which tires quickly, usually because people just stop caring if you are clever or you get caught if you aren't, not because the AoD took anything like an active stance of mega-overreaction that some people talk about but because you will get caught if you try to sell the items or talk about it).

The rest of the rinth had the guild clan and the guild clan has been associated with the AoD clan historically and there -was- nice cross-pollination of plots.  The guild clan also offered a more direct staff representation, several PCs that operated as "leaders", and so a kind of continuation to plots unavailable to unclanned people.

The poor elf PCs had nobody, not even themselves since they hated each other (which was pretty much awesome at times).  In terms of getting hooked on plots in a clan-like way, I don't think they got very much, and couple this with those oh-so-tempting rinthi NPCs and you had a massive turnover in the c-elf population.

[Malken]

I have played a year longer than you have and so actually got to play an Akai(which was fun,) and I'm not quite certain either. That said, the Akai are inexplicably wealthy, look down on violence, and are in deep with the tuluki templarate. Those last three points coupled with Liratheans still being a thing made it a little hard to do much else than rob people and tell them to pay up if they wanted it to stop.

They sorta re-did the Akai docs and it's not the way you describe it anymore.

I must say I'm not a big fan of the new Akai docs, it's like they don't really know (Staff) where to put them in the grand scheme of Tuluk and its still finding its place (if there's one to be found).

I think we can all agree that Akai was a terrible mistake and maybe just move on.

[Fujikoma]

I don't really understand the distinction between a merchant house and an elven tribe. Both will rob you blind, both will murder you if you get in their way or step on their toes wrong, other than the latter being more cohesive with less betrayal as far as their insiders, I'm not sure what the point on the Akai being closed was, then again, I -did not- play in Tuluk very much when they were open, I've never been a member and I've not participated in any events that may have lead to their closure. I've also never had the experience of seeing the Jaxa Pah in action, aside from one or two elderly elves still kicking it from time to time. At the same time as I can see there could have been some issues, I feel like I really missed out on a number of interesting playing experiences.

I vote that after the elven tribes re-open, all the fucking merchant houses get closed for a documentation revamp to streamline their processes and look at what really doesn't work and doesn't fit into the setting, because fuck all humans, and revenge is sweet. After that, noble houses, then militias.

One is run by humans and the other is run by elves.

Yes, exactly. Close all human clans for over a RL year so they can share in this wonderful experience.

[Patuk]

I'd be interested to see how they were revised, but that's a moot point now anyway. I think if Tuluk were to get a celf tribe again, they'd be best served with a new tribe.

[Down Under]

I think both city-states would benefit from a smattering of city-elf tribes (2-3) that they can use as a origin. When the elf chooses that tribe, they are automatically clanned into it when they point to their city. Other members of that elf tribe can recognize members of their tribe by looking at them. Let the shenanigans ensue.

As far as racial running goes, last I checked running around the city as a city elf isn't half-bad. You don't lose any stamina in places like the Labyrinth.

I'd rather see the dichotomy split mentioned earlier in the thread -- I think we would see a marked increase of functional city-elves if they could actually ride mounts. I weighed the pro's and con's in my head -- Having the RP flavor of more city elves around because they are more functional and capable of 'keeping up' with the rest of the player base I think far outweighs whatever RP benefit comes from generationally deciding they are too good for mounts, when they aren't.

[Fujikoma]

Seriously, tribeless elf roles can get more isolated than gemmer or rogue magicker roles, as well as more socially disadvantaged. At least gemmers will congregate amongst themselves, and have a respectable degree of protection provided them by the government, and a rogue magicker can pass relatively unnoticed if they are careful. But being tall, pointy-eared and skinny is very difficult to hide.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I've honestly always questioned why the two elf flavors are coded and treated so differently to begin with. Are they really 2 separate races? I highly doubt it. So it doesn't make sense then that city elves' legs would be THAT MUCH weaker than those of desert elves. Looking at the docs, we can tell that Allanak is about 1300 years old and Tuluk 1200, so before that all elves would be considered D-elves. I'm not expert, but I'm fairly certain 1300 years isn't enough time to devolve your 2nd heart, or enlarged achillies tendon, or whatever other fan-favorite theory lies behind the secret to D-elf running. Granted there would be environmental differences in the two, but that wouldn't make or break the trait so drastically.

The other question I have is; why is it totally inconceivable / taboo / off limits for a desert elf to either not have a tribe, or to be a member of a virtual tribe... but for a city elf (and any subguild_nomad for that matter) it's practically the expectation? How many thousands of orphaned virtual tribes are there in the game world at this point? Is that realistic?

Personally I feel like both flavors of elf have suffered in the 10 years I've played, to the almost whimsical (for lack of a better explanation) decisions to close this tribe, annihilate that tribe, combine these 3 tribes into this one sucky tribe and then close it. It's to the point that I can't even remember the last time I saw a desert elf in the desert. (Outside of the Tablelands, anyways.) For being the 2nd most populace race in the world, elves are seriously under-represented and under-loved. And it's not just a lack of a desert option for city-elves that does it.

Honestly, I think player role calls for tribal c-elves should be more of a thing. OR, have a few open tribes that players could just app into, the way Desert Elves used to work. No need for coded tribe HQs or special message boards. Just apply, log in, and play. Meet your tribe mates as you go. It might sound a bit awkward in this day and age, but it used to work out okay for Desert Elves. You know, back when they were around.