Re: Zalanthan nobility

[RogueGunslinger]

Every time someone talks about these sorts of issues it always come down to a player numbers problem. Not enough nobles = not much fun for nobles. Too many nobles = not enough lower politick stuff getting focus.


I say we just eliminate a major city and then have enough people to fill all walks of a cities structure. Force everybody closer together and you force the different classes to interact with each-other leaving less of a "nobles do their noble thing, commoners do their commoner thing."

[Beethoven]

Some of my most memorable scenes in the game were with PC nobles: being oppressed, being forced to do humiliating things, being railroaded into execution, and having their superiority rubbed in my face. I would hate to have that dynamic and tension taken away.

I fully understand the challenges (and boredom) that players of nobles face, believe me, and they are very real problems. Nonetheless, I would hesitate to respond to those issues by adding nobles to the growing list of unplayable roles.

[Desertman]

Every time someone talks about these sorts of issues it always come down to a player numbers problem. Not enough nobles = not much fun for nobles. Too many nobles = not enough lower politick stuff getting focus.


I say we just eliminate a major city and then have enough people to fill all walks of a cities structure. Force everybody closer together and you force the different classes to interact with each-other leaving less of a "nobles do their noble thing, commoners do their commoner thing."

I wouldn't mind seeing smaller areas of civilization, but I don't want to see one city wiped out with one city remaining. I like the idea of two powers going to war from time to time. I love wars.

I would love wars between three or four outposts about the size of Redstorm even more though.

Allanak and Tuluk take a fall and a few Redstorm sized/Luir's Outpost sized villages pop up as the new dominant world powers.

Oh yes plz.

It would make the entire game so much more gritty and it would make the overbearing "hand of God" some organizations have less omnipotent and crushing.

I would trade cutthroat merchant barons at war with each other for nobility and god-level sorcerer kings any day.

That's a personal taste thing though. It may very well ruin the game for everyone else.

[wizturbo]

I would trade cutthroat merchant barons at war with each other for nobility and god-level sorcerer kings any day.

My hope is that in a few years there are established PC created and PC lead organizations that fulfill this role of merchant barons, while still framed underneath the power of respective sorcerer-kings.

To take the nobles and sorcerer-kings out of Armageddon would kill the setting for me.

[Desertman]

Edited out because I realized that is mostly just hypothesized speculation on my part that could be wrong. 

[RogueGunslinger]

Every time someone talks about these sorts of issues it always come down to a player numbers problem. Not enough nobles = not much fun for nobles. Too many nobles = not enough lower politick stuff getting focus.


I say we just eliminate a major city and then have enough people to fill all walks of a cities structure. Force everybody closer together and you force the different classes to interact with each-other leaving less of a "nobles do their noble thing, commoners do their commoner thing."

I wouldn't mind seeing smaller areas of civilization, but I don't want to see one city wiped out with one city remaining. I like the idea of two powers going to war from time to time. I love wars.

I would love wars between three or four outposts about the size of Redstorm even more though.

Allanak and Tuluk take a fall and a few Redstorm sized/Luir's Outpost sized villages pop up as the new dominant world powers.

Oh yes plz.

It would make the entire game so much more gritty and it would make the overbearing "hand of God" some organizations have less omnipotent and crushing.

I would trade cutthroat merchant barons at war with each other for nobility and god-level sorcerer kings any day.

That's a personal taste thing though. It may very well ruin the game for everyone else.

That's like the opposite of what I want. A bunch of mid-sized cities would spread everyone out too much and was one my major problems with the proposed Arm2.0. I think MUDs do large scale 1000vNPC and 40+ player battles very poorly, which any war between Allanak and Tuluk would have to turn into. I think cold-war style spying, with blood spilled in back-alleys and in the Arena through champions and political maneuvers, is much more intriguing than that massive war spam-fests. And it can all be done within the playable sphere of one another. 

You take away one city(lets be real here, it'd be Tuluk) and then I imagine both Storm and Luirs would see a surge of players. Those two can go to war with each-other over spice or something, and that I think would work very well. They could have allegiances to different Nobles houses in Allanak with both vying for the favor of the Templarate. But they wouldn't be so far removed from the game like Tuluk tends to be.

With more people filling out nobles houses we already have and more people in the commoner class as well, they can go to war with one another for a multitude of reasons. Ever seen Spartacus? Many noble houses all vying for position, power, and glory. All within one city, with plenty of bloodshed, and intrigue, encompassing everyone from slaves to nobles, to kings.

[Desertman]

I could get behind that as well. Though I would still prefer three to four Luir's/Redstorm sized areas with less all powerful established rulers.

I could also get behind an Allanak with no sorcerer king and only noble and merchant houses fighting for tentative control. They all know they have to at least put up a front of "law and order" or everything collapses and there won't be anything to rule, but they are all also competing with each other against each other for control.

No great overlord ruler of god-power...just a bunch of backstabbing power hungry/blood thirsty Houses all working with and against each other all at once.

(Drow cities basically.)

[wizturbo]

The thing to keep in mind is that the player-created organizations in question are really only going to be puppet-extensions of already established organizations.

They have to get the approval of and favor of an already established organization in order to even exist. That means they have to bend a knee to them. That means they are basically just a vassal to that larger power.

This is how they begin, yes.  What's to say that's how they'll always be though?  The status quo cannot be challenged unless you have a foothold in the world.  No start up business is built without outside help, be it financial, social or political.  The same is true in the real world.

What happens after these Houses become established is where things get interesting.  What happens when a House changes hands to its heirs, and those heirs don't agree with the status quo?  These are all interesting questions I hope to see the answers to in the coming years.

[CodeMaster]

I'm not well versed in playing nobility, but I'd agree with Delerium too.  It strikes me that a trusted, high-level aide could accomplish a large subset of the things a junior (i.e., PC) noble could.  Running and choreographing arena events, planning and organizing parties, etc.

If I were given the choice to be a Tor noble or be a Tor lieutenant/equivalent, I'd go with the lieutenant in a heartbeat.  It's also self-serving, but I'd rather have a Tor lieutenant/captain/whatever in the game than a Tor noble, if I had to choose between the two.

At the very least, it would be an interesting experiment to conduct to see if some noble houses could be run without a noble PC, but with a couple of high-level aides at the wheel.

[edited to add: n.b., this is essentially the model the Byn runs on; the players are sergeants.  They get to lead PCs around and choreograph plots, but they also get to be commoners and continue to live in a harsh, low-technology desert world]

[Rathustra]

I'm not well versed in playing nobility, but I'd agree with Delerium too.  It strikes me that a trusted, high-level aide could accomplish a large subset of the things a junior (i.e., PC) noble could.  Running and choreographing arena events, planning and organizing parties, etc.

If I were given the choice to be a Tor noble or be a Tor lieutenant/equivalent, I'd go with the lieutenant in a heartbeat.  It's also self-serving, but I'd rather have a Tor lieutenant/captain/whatever in the game than a Tor noble, if I had to choose between the two.

At the very least, it would be an interesting experiment to conduct to see if some noble houses could be run without a noble PC, but with a couple of high-level aides at the wheel.

[edited to add: n.b., this is essentially the model the Byn runs on; the players are sergeants.  They get to lead PCs around and choreograph plots, but they also get to be commoners and continue to live in a harsh, low-technology desert world]

House Tenneshi has not had a noble in... six months? Likely more. It is entirely active and its current highest ranked PC is involved in the politics of the city. All Northern Houses are now set up to be sustainable without noble PCs. Noble PCs make things easier and have more agency, however.

[CodeMaster]

House Tenneshi has not had a noble in... six months? Likely more. It is entirely active and its current highest ranked PC is involved in the politics of the city. All Northern Houses are now set up to be sustainable without noble PCs. Noble PCs make things easier and have more agency, however.

That is awesome!

[montarion]

You take away one city(lets be real here, it'd be Tuluk) and then I imagine both Storm and Luirs would see a surge of players. Those two can go to war with each-other over spice or something, and that I think would work very well. They could have allegiances to different Nobles houses in Allanak with both vying for the favor of the Templarate. But they wouldn't be so far removed from the game like Tuluk tends to be.

Oh man, this is perfect.

You still get the warring factions that provide a narrative for conflict, but now you also have an uninvolved third faction that serves as a central mingling place, with politics getting more complicated as the higher-ups among all three factions jockey for position, with commoners, tribals, and mercenaries getting swept up into war that isn't quite such a pitched battle (and loyalties aren't quite so divinely mandated).

[Rathustra]

You take away one city(lets be real here, it'd be Allanak) and then I imagine both Morin's and Luirs would see a surge of players. Those two can go to war with each-other over spice or something, and that I think would work very well. They could have allegiances to different Nobles houses in Tuluk with both vying for the favor of the Templarate. But they wouldn't be so far removed from the game like Allanak tends to be.

[Eyeball]

I'd like to see nobles given some special powers involving the direction of NPCs.

For example, a Tor noble with a few military units to position and give directions to (e.g. blockade an entrance).

A Borsail noble with some slave-taking raiding parties to send out (e.g. harass grebbers in the north).

A Fale noble with a NPC quartet of musicians that can be set playing, or a NPC comic trouple that can be set frolicking down a preset path, making announcements and dispensing candies or something.

Give these characters tools, and they will use them to maneuver politically and make the game more interesting.

NPCs in general could be made more capable and interesting, for that matter.

Now of course someone will come on here and say they can use PCs to do that, which misses the point entirely.

[RogueGunslinger]

You take away one city(lets be real here, it'd be Allanak) and then I imagine both Morin's and Luirs would see a surge of players. Those two can go to war with each-other over spice or something, and that I think would work very well. They could have allegiances to different Nobles houses in Tuluk with both vying for the favor of the Templarate. But they wouldn't be so far removed from the game like Allanak tends to be.

I'm glad we're agreeing in principle to the idea of consolidation It's a great start!

As for Allanak Vs Tuluk, I think it's pretty obvious which would upheave the playerbase more.


And, with that I'll get off my soap box. Sorry for the mini-derail.

[Rathustra]

You take away one city(lets be real here, it'd be Allanak) and then I imagine both Morin's and Luirs would see a surge of players. Those two can go to war with each-other over spice or something, and that I think would work very well. They could have allegiances to different Nobles houses in Tuluk with both vying for the favor of the Templarate. But they wouldn't be so far removed from the game like Allanak tends to be.

I'm glad we're agreeing in principle to the idea of consolidation It's a great start!

As for Allanak Vs Tuluk, I think it's pretty obvious which would upheave the playerbase more.


And, with that I'll get off my soap box. Sorry for the mini-derail.

The only fair choice is Steinal.

[Patuk]

y u no ptar ken

[Barsook]

House Tenneshi has not had a noble in... six months? Likely more. It is entirely active and its current highest ranked PC is involved in the politics of the city. All Northern Houses are now set up to be sustainable without noble PCs. Noble PCs make things easier and have more agency, however.

I had a feeling why this PC was able to do this in the North.  It's just not that common in this day and age (in real life and in game) to see high ranking aides like they were back in 2004-2006, if I'm not mistaken.  <--- Don't know why I said that.

When was this set up to be like this though, about when House Tenneshi lost it's Chosen and this PC was left?

[nauta]

As someone who is sort of persuaded by the 'consolidation' arguments, I have a question:

The phrase 'I love Tuluk' appears ambiguous from the discussion.  Is it:

a. You love Tuluki RP (whatever that amounts to, but the higher-order stuff, involving tea, subtlety, and bards).

b. You love Tuluk and its environs (as distinct from the RP)

c. You don't think the two could be separated and so you love both.

If (a) it seems like you might be able to just 'ramp up' the higher-order stuff amongst the nobles in Allanak.

[valeria]

Don't take my nobles.  I will cut you.

[Barzalene]

I think we don't need less nobles, but a political process for nobles to participate in.

[Delirium]

What do the people who enjoy playing nobles enjoy about the role?

Not at all a snarky question. I am curious.

[Barzalene]

What do the people who enjoy playing nobles enjoy about the role?

Not at all a snarky question. I am curious.

I always lik the opportunity to provide situations that include others (I don't always succeed, but I like to try.)

I like emphasizing the grittiness by incorporating an awareness of the schism between have and have nots.

[Cutthroat]

What do the people who enjoy playing nobles enjoy about the role?

Not at all a snarky question. I am curious.

For me, there's a mix of IC and OOC challenges and goals that keep noble roles interesting. ICly, they're in a delicate place - it's a balance between living a lavish and privileged lifestyle relative to almost everyone else in Zalanthas, legitimizing the templarate and the noble-templar relationship through your existence, and having a specific set of duties depending on your House and your city. As a noble, you can be a trendsetter in the playerbase by reinforcing the themes of the world or the particular area you're in. OOC wise, it's the challenge of designing plots that both make sense for your character to pursue and also serve your purpose as a sponsored role by involving as many PCs as possible in them. The gratification from playing a noble comes as much from other players seemingly enjoying their PCs as it does enjoying your own noble PC.

[Gimfalisette]

What do the people who enjoy playing nobles enjoy about the role?

-- Leading minions.
-- Making powerful enemies (templars and nobles in my city-state).
-- Making weak enemies (commoners in my city-state, templars and nobles elsewhere).
-- City politics, personal politics.
-- Embodying the ideal of the relevant culture (both city and clan).
-- Sparking plots.