Re: Zalanthan nobility

[Beethoven]

Yeah. Well, that is a very real problem.

[Down Under]

These are pretty flimsy generalizations.

I think Noble Houses do fine with 1-2 employees, either in Allanak or Tuluk.

I think Nobles that rely on others to have fun become bored and store. Those that are self-starters and have real characters behind the vending machine tend to stick around. The more Nobles and 'upper crust' there are around to interact with, the more likely they are to stick around, because they aren't sitting in a bar by themselves doing nothing.

A lot of what makes those roles fun is up to the person playing them. There are 'real problems' and 'perceived problems', and I think this one is the latter.

As a Leadership PC in either a Noble or Templar position, I let people come to me. I don't seek out aides or employees to make my life easier -- If the person is seeking me out, to me it OOCly means they want the job, as well as ICly. I think there is plenty of room in Allanak, and Tuluk, for non-affiliated Commoners and people just being regular joes.

[Delirium]

I would rather see those self-starters in other roles, for all the reasons I've previously stated. I did clarify that self-starters can make something out of these roles, that doesn't invalidate my point that I think the TYPE of role is ultimately damaging to the game's atmosphere and we'd be better off without it.

I expected this to be an unpopular viewpoint, though. I'm not expecting people to agree with me.

[Down Under]

People might agree with you if you had stronger arguments for why those self-starters are better suited to non-Noble positions.

I've seen 'High End Aide' roles in Tuluk and Allanak, and they inevitably end up being a courier between Staff and other PCs, because they don't have someone legit to talk to. That sounds like a pretty boring job to me. I'd rather be playing the person ordering a High End Aide around, and making decisions that might alter the direction of my House or the game-world around me.

[Delirium]

You realize that you're calling high-end aide roles boring for the same reason I'm calling noble roles boring?

Seems kinda flimsy to me.

The point is that the aides would fill the gap left by the nobles, but would be able to interact with a broader portion of the playerbase while raising less OOC eyebrows.

[Down Under]

No, I am calling high end Aide roles boring because they act as courier between Staff and the Playerbase, while the Noble can just interact with Staff and the Playerbase and accomplish far more than an Aide can.

I think it's speculative to say 'aides would fill the gaps left by Nobles'. Not by a long shot, in my opinion.

Also speculative to say 'be able to interact with a broader portion of the player base while raising less OOC eyebrows'. Whose eyebrows are raised?

Playing a Noble requires interaction with Staff -- If you interact with Staff and sell them on your ideas, you have enough virtual backing/power to make things happen. As an Aide, you don't have that gravitas virtually, and ultimately are just a lackey of 'The Man'. You don't have the gravitas to speak with your superiors candidly about ideas or concepts, because you're just a servant, receiving marching orders and doing.

They're completely different roles, especially from an RP sense, and also an OOC standpoint.

[Dresan]

I think the staff may have made a subtle change to the way a couple organizations hire people that should make things more interesting. Particularly in the north, where its always seemed like there were more people hiring then there were people to actually hire.


Hopefully I'm right about the change, and hopefully it is a permanent one. Thinking it might just be a trail period to see how things work out so far so good from what i am seeing though.

[Patuk]

Afaik, staff don't butt in on hiring practices in most clans, and I doubt noble houses are an exception.

[Delirium]

It seems to me like you're taking this kind of personally.

I'm not saying current players are doing a bad job. I'm sure they're doing the best they can with what they're dealt.

I do think you're discounting what a high-end aide could accomplish if they were essentially acting with their noble's authority. Nobles have similar block-points after all; their own superiors.

In the end, I'm just pie in the sky wishing for a gameworld that was focused on the lower echelons.

[KankWhisperer]

Get rid of all the 'high' parts of the game.

Make it actually low magick, low politic, without deus ex machina Kings and too big to be defeated organizations.

[Down Under]

Oh no, not personally at all.

I just don't agree with you.

A commoner aide 'empowered by their Noble to act on their behalf' is still a commoner Aide. They don't interact with the Upper Crust in the same fashion, and that Upper Crust RP appeals to plenty of people that play Armageddon. It seems (to me) like doing all of the things a Noble does, without the perks of being of 'noble birth' and being better than everyone else, and all the cultural stuff that comes along with it.

I think if you don't want to play Upper Crusts, then there's no reason to!

But I don't think that means the Upper Crust is inherently broken. It seems plenty of people are enjoying it currently with no (tangible) issue, in both Allanak and Tuluk. Sure there are little problems, as with many of the roles in ArmageddonMUD, but they don't constitute it being broken, IMHO.

[Patuk]

Re: Tuluk seeming to be way more noble-heavy than Allanak is;

Allanak has a lawless area with a mobster clan in it, whereas Tuluk instead has a collective of clans that focus on art and history. Additionally, Allanak has an entire class of people who are hated by most anyone and have a really hard time getting anywhere socially.

Which sounds like the more top-heavy atmosphere?

[Down Under]

Allanak also has an oppressor Caste that basically can 'do what they want' within reason (sometimes without reason).

They also have a Caste of Nobility that can 'do what they want' within reason, to other Nobles and Commoners.

Tuluk has a restraint that holds those 'powers that be' back to a certain extent. I think that balances the Top Heavy nature of Tuluk, against the lack of restraint that can be exhibited in Allanak.

By example, in Allanak, a Noble could tell a Commoner to take off their pants and take a shit on a table, and the Commoner would basically (under pain of death), have to do so. Other Nobles might even give that Noble a high-five, because fuck commoners.

In Tuluk, a Noble would never do something like that, and if they did, all of their Noble buddies would probably not invite them to any fancy parties or for tea-time anymore. They wouldn't not do it because, also, fuck commoners, but it'd be gauche, and way beneath them to exhibit power so brazenly.

[Narf]

Get rid of all the 'high' parts of the game.

Make it actually low magick, low politic, without deus ex machina Kings and too big to be defeated organizations.

I don't want to get rid of the politics, but I'd like the politics to be less about grand noble machinations and more about which beggar controls which street corner.

[BadSkeelz]

An important role nobles in both cities fill is kick-starting shenanigans that are just too involved, complicated, expensive, or balls-out-insane for commoners of any stripe to come up with.

[Patuk]

That affects RP with the PC's that are already there, not the PC's that go to play there in the first place. Where an Allanaki thief might be tossed into the dung pile inside the stables or get tossed of the whiran tower and magically healed thrice, the same thief in Tuluk is more likely to get punished away from the public eye, and in a less humiliating fashion.

And that's all well and good, but it does nothing to encourage people playing dirty commoners in Tuluk.

Another point is that the approachability of nobles in Tuluk makes it way easier and more likely for people to somehow end up in their grasp. If you're some nobody in Allanak, a noble has good reason to pay you no attention whatsoever. A nobody in Tuluk may have to interact with high class PC's way more.

[Down Under]

Different flavors, one taste.

[Barzalene]

Delerium, I hear what you're saying about focusing more on the lower echeleos. Its persuasive. The reason I cannot agree is because nobles done well can often really highlight the dichotomy between have and have nots.That can be really compelling.

I do wish aides were less silky. I mean once someone becomes an established high level servant, that's different, but... Ok this is my bias. I just ... You know. Let's all remember our place in the scheme of things.

[nauta]

I think part of the problem is there are two different claims being made:

1. That nobles as a kind aren't playable (or, if playable, aren't healthy for the gameplay experience of everyone) in principle.

2. That nobles as a kind (...) not in principle but granted the low playerbase (since although [1] is false, those noble kickstarter PCs would best be out there kickstarting in a role that has a lot more of a chance to improve the gameplay experience).

I'm inclined to agree with (2), and I've always been fond of the notion of consolidating this part of the game by moving all the playable nobles into one city.

[MeTekillot]

Don't get rid of nobles, how will my teenageppickpocket make a living withoutsstealing 300+ coins per steal attempt without their bulging coin sacks

[wizturbo]

Noble roles are a bit of a catch-22. 

There's a certain critical mass required for noble politics to function, but opening up enough roles to reach that critical mass will depopulate other areas of the game.  It also increases the ratio of noble/noble-affiliated PCs in respect to the rest of the player base...which makes the cities feel overly saturated with nobility. 

Increasing the size of our player base would certainly help solve this, but until then, I think we just need to deal with the bloated ratios of noble/noble-affiliates to the lower echelons.  Armageddon without active noble houses would be missing something that's essential...removing them would be a cure that's worse than the disease.

[Dresan]

Get rid of all the 'high' parts of the game.

Make it actually low magick, low politic, without deus ex machina Kings and too big to be defeated organizations.

Maybe someday. 

Its going the right direction in terms of player power levels, with the old sorcerer class gone, just needs to go in the same direction virtually as well. Immortal all knowing omnipotence turns what would other wise be great story lines and events into so much cheese.

[wizturbo]

I don't mind the "high" parts of the game.  I'd just like them to be fleshed out, and have more weaknesses to balance out their strengths.

[Inks]

I agree with delirium.

[Barzalene]

We probably need a thread. But I'm at work and can't. I don't mind the power imbalance. I would like them to have more meaningful content, things that they could do from day one that had clear value. Reasons to pursue power in a way more quantifiable.

I had some really clear ideas back in 05, but they didn't have legs.