Leadership Taxicab Confessional

[Patuk]

I know they're being done just fine, and even partook in such things a few times, I just think a red robe would have a far easier time focusing on them. And find out IC really, really overused.

[Tetra]

Isn't off-the-richter promotional storage a reward, in a certain sense?  Your PC has reached a level of influence that has them stepping off stage, but they have basically 'won'.

I would much rather see my successful PC be stored, than meet a death that I think might be beneath what they deserved.  But what to do I know.

[Down Under]

Isn't off-the-richter promotional storage a reward, in a certain sense?  Your PC has reached a level of influence that has them stepping off stage, but they have basically 'won'.

I would much rather see my successful PC be stored, than meet a death that I think might be beneath what they deserved.  But what to do I know.

I agree.

[HavokBlue]

I think there are a very small number of PCs to which this ever becomes an issue.

[Down Under]

As with many 'issues' on the GDB, there are people who will get butthurt about pretty much anything.

[MeTekillot]

Your reward for game that you play is to. . . stop playing that game in the way you were playing?

[Down Under]

By the time you get to that 'Senior Position', you really should consider moving on to a new PC.

Murder, Corruption, Betrayal. Not 'live until you're 90 and win the game by being a Red Robe'.

[Patuk]

No my good sir, I am the most righteous catholic, look at how humble I am, I would never dare wish to even go to haven or sit with the Lord.

Maybe we should do a tangent about characters with low stats being the best thing evar and playing crippled mutant celf warriors being the epitome of RP next.

[MeTekillot]

i think you should store if you get more than one combat skill to master because obviously all you want to do is train up instead of murder corruption betrayal

[HavokBlue]

Rough circle is roleplaying

[Tetra]

If the point of the game is betrayal, corruption, and murder, getting stored means you outmaneuvered all of your peers.  If you didn't get stored, you're bound to get stabbed in the back eventually.  Not sure what else people expect from the way the game is laid out.

[Armaddict]

If the point of the game is betrayal, corruption, and murder, getting stored means you outmaneuvered all of your peers.

That's not the point of the game, that's the slogan of the game, describing the world your character lives in.  Just thought I'd throw that out there before you continue to use it as a basis for...whatever...it is you're saying.

Edited to add, more in line with the thread:

I wasn't trying to re-argue the glass ceiling thing, it was more just a comment about how the state of the leadership role feels and appears to me, in its current state.  I don't think powerful PC's is bad.  I mostly agree with Desertman's sentiments, but the problem comes in that leadership roles are seemingly having a pretty high turnover rate, which makes it very hard to establish one's self the way those sentiments require.  Structure helps with that problem.  A rule-enforced 'level playing field' doesn't.  Scrabbling your way to the top of the heap is what makes said slogan necessary, and without actual benefit, there's simply too much risk involved in most cases for people to make the actual cutthroat politics.

Or something.  Mostly just a meandering thought process based off of current, arbitrary thoughts.  So there.

[valeria]

I don't know why so many people are worried about the glass ceiling.  The number of leadership characters I've seen live long enough to run up against it is ridiculously small compared to the number of leadership characters that store (or occasionally die) in less than a year.

[Tetra]

That's not the point of the game, that's the slogan of the game, describing the world your character lives in.  Just thought I'd throw that out there before you continue to use it as a basis for...whatever...it is you're saying.

Your tone seems very pointed right now. 

If the world your character lives in is based on a harsh setting where permanent death is inevitable, it's fair to assume that outliving and outlasting everyone around you to a point of storage is a sign of succeeding in just that --- survival.  You have to let go eventually.  If I have to pick between dying and storage, I pick storage.

[MeTekillot]

Storage is not desirable. Storage is a band-aid on the fact that there's no coded incentive to rise higher in the ranks

[ShaLeah]

I don't know why so many people are worried about the glass ceiling.  The number of leadership characters I've seen live long enough to run up against it is ridiculously small compared to the number of leadership characters that store (or occasionally die) in less than a year.

You're right, RIDICULOUSLY small is an excellent way to put it.
And because they are ridiculously small those people, those proven leaders should be rewarded in game, by his/her seniors in that character's story lines.

No one but you should tell you when your character's been around long enough. Staff ultimately can/should/will tell someone it's time to go. In the case of that sorcerer the end came way too late (just mho). I don't know of any long lived characters personally that were told it's time to retire by staff so I won't make assumptions.
Guess for ME that whole "you won the game, nothing more to do here" leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Not that I'll every get there mind you, all my characters die lol.

[Majikal]

Very high-ranking roles are not playable because they imbalance the game for other players, not because we don't trust players with them. One Red Robed templar in a city is more powerful than all the Blue Robes and junior nobles put together, and therefore can squash anything that they don't want to have happen. A Red Robe could execute junior nobles with impunity for the most part (at least the first couple), and they could make sure that junior nobles or Blues never got to do a single thing plot-wise. Does that sound fun? Not really. And that's why we don't allow roles like Red Robes and senior nobles to be playable. In addition, high-level roles of this kind tend to be extremely boring for the players, because they no longer have any peers and no one can challenge them. Good players who have the capability to be promoted to these roles want to have enemies and peers, but inherently these roles don't allow for that. No one fucks with a Red Robe, and that's just boring.

This is why I always assumed the glass ceiling exists. If it's not one bitch about it, it's another. People whine because it exists, but then when it doesn't you no longer have murder/corruption/betrayal you have I win I'm promoted. Things as they are promote plot lines better and keep things in a balance that's easier for players and staff to control. Maybe when your icly reach that glass ceiling you can start up an argument on your own behalf and approach it from that angle, but just wanting it removed in general.. blech. It serves a purpose.

[Riev]

Having been friends with a pretty OP sorceror (and maybe even one or a precursor to one Shaleah is talking about) I can say that... alright. While on the one hand, yes, this happens to so few people its not a huge problem, but its also incredibly shortsighted to think that "Who cares about the needs of the few" in this instance.


If you feel there's little incentive in clans other than "being virtually supported by a group that doesn't give a shit about you in the third place", what is the incentive to wanting to be a Sergeant? A Lieutenant? Why would you want to rise up the ranks, if you know that rising up only leads to a ceiling that says "You might be too powerful"? In the case of Templars, there is (supposedly) now some more lateral advancement, but in the past its basically been "try something and see if staff let you do it" which... really... is pretty dismal. This leaves leadership positions either for the newbies who havn't had any real leadership experience yet, or oldbies who (lets admit) have a tendency to sit in a position and do very little because most oldbies don't have time like they used to.

On storage: Staff won't force store your character, but what they will say is "If you choose to continue down this path (that you've been going down for a couple RL months now) you will get that promotion and be unable to play this character anymore". Force-stored? No. Given the option? Yes. I'll leave it to you how you'd feel about "That plot you're pursuing is completely acceptable, and will end with you being stored."

Leaders are already hard to come by. The staff are volunteers and put up with a pretty good number of requests from players, other staff, and real life combined. This makes it hard for them to support Leaders the way many first/second time leaders think they deserve. And if one staff is REALLY active with the Byn, players begin to expect that behavior in the future. When it isn't a possibility due to new staff, less time, etc. people get rightly disillusioned and cranky. I know I tend to get cranky, and shy away from roles that would, in any way, require staff attention because... frankly... I know I can't trust there to be support when I do need it. Thats not to take away from the staff, thats just to say that I know from my personal history, that they won't always be there.

[Majikal]

If you feel there's little incentive in clans other than "being virtually supported by a group that doesn't give a shit about you in the third place", what is the incentive to wanting to be a Sergeant? A Lieutenant? Why would you want to rise up the ranks, if you know that rising up only leads to a ceiling that says "You might be too powerful"?

Enjoy the journey, not the destination.

I personally feel like if your only ooc goal in making a leadership pc is to blow through the "glass ceiling" and reach the tip top of promotional bad-assery you should re-evaluate your drive for being a leader. Icly, pursue those goals and expect pitfalls, expect difficulties and know oocly that the chance of you reaching it is slim to none (this is how it should be icly anyway). This doesn't stop you from icly having that drive for promotion.

[Riev]

Not saying specifically I feel that way, Tony, just saying that there seems to be similar voices saying "Clans suck" as the ones saying "The glass ceiling in clans is the worst".

I'd even be alright if, as an Officer in any clan, other non-Officers (or vNPC officers) are jockeying for your position. Who WOULDN'T want to be over the First in Tuluk? Or the Seventh Sabers in 'Nak? Prominent units, those.

[Aruven]

There's always been a disconnect here. At this very moment right here. We agree Glass Ceilings aren't the end all be all but people like the idea of them maybe not being there.

[KankWhisperer]

Confession:
I hate reports.

[Bushranger]

Confession:
I hate reports.

I love reports, when they're finished and submitted.
I hate reports, when I'm looking at a black notepad and have to begin writing them!

[KankWhisperer]

I use linux a lot so I have a habit of using middle mouse button for pasting. Of course I do it by habit and that freaks out request tool, effectively deleting anything I've done.

[wizturbo]

Here's my thought on the glass ceiling debate:

I hate glass ceilings, but for very different reasons than most of the posts on the subject.  

This isn't about the PC who got promoted to Red Robe. Sure, it's a big achievement to have managed to claw your way up to Red,  but lets be real here...  Anyone who plays a Templar who managed to distinguish themselves enough to warrant the promotion must have had one wild ride.  They're already happy.

No, this isn't about the one, rare and exceptional PC.  The promotion isn't for them.

It's about Amos the private, who saved that would-be Red Robes life during a battle, and now by this stroke of fate has a fucking Red Robe who owes them one.  

It's about the junior noble who helped this Red Robe ascend to their station, and is now eager to bask in all the influence and favor (or lack of gratitude) that comes with that.  

It's about the Templar's aide, that was with them for 10 years when they were only a Blue, and effectively gets an increase in status as well by being brought along for the ride.

It's about the indie merchant who applies to have their trade company ascend to a Lesser Merchant House, and the Templar they bribed for two decades speaks on their behalf in the Senate, now wearing a Red Robe.  

It's about a bitter rival cowers,  fearing for their life, when the woman they tried to out maneuver for all those years ascends to power.

It's about the feeling normal commoners get when they see this Red Robe stride into Red's Retreat, and the entire room goes silent and falls on their knees, and the feeling the players gets when they know this Red Robe is not a staff animation.  That this character must've done something BIG, and maybe, someday, they could do something big too.

Glass ceilings limit the imagination of the player base far more than they protect us from abuse, or protect their single player from a potentially boring role.  Not only that, they limit the world for all the people who help (or try to hinder) these exceptional people come to power.