Leadership Taxicab Confessional

[palomar]

We do have fears of PCs having as much power as a staff member in terms of influencing plot and the rest of the game without the same oversight that staff have, so they generally won't (i.e. no Red Robes or their equivalent, no senior nobles).

Why? Those sorts of PCs are as powerless as any other sort to influence the world, since it still takes staff to as much as tweak a room description or add an NPC or whatnot. But their presence would at least add to the smoke and mirrors of PC actions mattering somewhat to affect more than just other PCs - ultimately, pof a Red Robe would still have to ask staff for things.

I imagine it is also very difficult to properly represent the power of PCs with a lot of non-coded influence. Great Lord Templar Hardnoose would have immediate access to resources that are largely virtual and only available to Blue robes through requests/work etc, which would require a lot of staff hours put into supporting one PC. Allowing high ranked PCs and leaving them with just the existing coded benefits and none of the often largely virtual perks would feel kinda meh and result in watering down the importance of the role. At least in my opinion.

I'm still glad to hear adjusting upwards mobility is being discussed because the prospect of clan rank is sometimes very compelling.

[Desertman]

Palomar, you page rolling so and so!!!

[Nyr]

We do have fears of PCs having as much power as a staff member in terms of influencing plot and the rest of the game without the same oversight that staff have, so they generally won't (i.e. no Red Robes or their equivalent, no senior nobles).

Why? Those sorts of PCs are as powerless as any other sort to influence the world, since it still takes staff to as much as tweak a room description or add an NPC or whatnot. But their presence would at least add to the smoke and mirrors of PC actions mattering somewhat to affect more than just other PCs - ultimately, pof a Red Robe would still have to ask staff for things.

Sure, for building.  I was referring to a specific thing:  influencing plot and the rest of the game without the same oversight or even self-imposed restrictions that staff members would have.  But I don't want to sound like a broken record, either, here's what was written about it before.

Recently:
Related to sorcerers / the glass ceiling / Templars /etc
part 2
part 3


Many things have changed since this time, but here's an older thread and some posts regarding it:
Policy discussion / 2011
part 2
relevant part 3, from Adhira

As is, a person can roll a ranger, have them be able to earn more money through a few hours of salting than a junior noble's stipend for an RL week, get combat experience (and skills) far more quickly than most clanned military-type PCs are allowed to, and probably join in with or form a crew that can quite easily end up more powerful than the PC element of either city's militia, gemmed and groups of rogue magickers notwithstanding.

So if that is your thing, feel free to roll with it, that's absolutely fine.  Staff will animate and empower the virtual world as appropriate to ensure that said group is not, in fact, more powerful than virtual groups that are more powerful. 

The rest of the examples provided seem hyperbolic though.  Nobles aren't poor (we revamped their pay in the past couple of years), a veteran soldier does indeed probably have more skill than a 2 month hunter, and there would indeed be multiple steps along the path to promot-a-storage, especially if you start helping at the beginning of someone's career.

[Down Under]

I've posted it before and I'll post it again.

I really don't see the problem with glass ceilings. You can still exceed them functionally if not codedly.

If your Blue Robe Templar is so influential, successful, and powerful that you would be promoted to a Red Robe without the issue of the glass ceiling, you WILL be able to do pretty much anything a Red Robe PC would be able to do anyways, minus the stuff that would require staff intervention (which is why the glass ceiling is there to begin with).

A Blue Robe might not be able to call up an army like a Red Robe could if staff were online and willing to help them call up said army. Anything outside of that, I don't see the issue.

If your Blue Robe is strong enough and influential enough to be promoted to a Red Robe in practice, then you will still get the same respect and command the same power over other PC's you would with the coded rank anyways.

The only thing Armageddon is, is player to player interaction. Your player to player interactions determine your level of power up until the point that staff steps in to animate NPC's from higher ranking organizations.

If you are playing a Byn Sergeant that WOULD be promoted to a Lieutenant without the glass ceiling, and you've earned that promotion in game, you are going to get the same respect in game from other players as if you had already earned that rank.

The only difference is staff can still animate Lieutenants or above to dick you or help you. As for your PC to PC interactions, there really won't be any difference if you have actually earned that promotion even if you don't codedly have it.

If you are playing a noble who has earned the prestige, rank, and notoriety that would otherwise allow you to be a Senior Noble without glass ceilings, you are going to get the same respect from other players as if you were a Senior Noble.

The only difference is staff can still animate Senior Nobles to either dick you or help you. If you have earned the accolades required to get the promotion, you will get the respect as if you did have it from the other players in the game.

Basically, the glass ceiling rule only affects your PC to NPC interactions and your ability to change/affect the static game world which would require staff assistance anyways. It doesn't really affect your PC to PC interactions in my opinion because PC's are still going to give you as much respect, fear, and loyalty as you have earned regardless of your coded rank.

I've absolutely interacted with some nobles that I feared a lot more than other nobles and gave a lot more respect to than other nobles because of what they had accomplished and achieved. For any meaningful PC interactions, they were Senior Nobles in practice, if not in rank. The same goes for some Templars I have known. The list goes on an on for pretty much every organization with a glass ceiling cap on the rank structure.

I agree with the sentiment of this post -- Player to Player interaction is key, and existing within the virtual construct of the world as well. Samos is looked back on as 'pretty awesome', but it also presented quite a few problems. First and foremost, just that you could/would have to interact with a Red Robe on a (potentially) daily basis. It demystifies the power of the Red Robe, when you see them hanging out at a tavern. Secondly, that decisions they make are reviewed by peers, not by superiors. I like the system of checks and balances -- I like having Staff get the final say, and have a conversation with me about what is possible, what isn't. The game wouldn't function well if a bunch of us had PCs that could do whatever they wanted. Sorry, I wouldn't even want to play a game inhabited by PC Red Robes and Senior Nobles. In a world of "I Me Mine", I fear that people just want those positions so they can say they got them, and then they would store in 2 weeks after they realized how boring it was.

[palomar]

Palomar, you page rolling so and so!!!

Hah!

I gotta say I agree with a lot of what you wrote about being able to do stuff and that it's mostly PC/NPC interaction where the coded rank and ceiling plays in.

I'd like to add that even with accomplishments and non-coded influence, it can be difficult to get that through to others PCs (players). My point being that sometimes people, and not always the uninformed, treat the 1-day PC and the 100-day PC the same because they have the same "general" rank in the organization.

[Aruven]

Nyr ; By ostracize, as in something like;

'We wouldn't want a Precentor/Black-robe because you'd be isolated, it wouldn't make sense for you to be around regularly as a player." --> Disregard if you already knew i meant it in this fashion.

You make a good example, the player created clans. Just keep in mind that when I was playing regularly, I literally e-mailed you specifically about something similar. Probably more than once, and not just to you but to all my clan staff ;
My response, was not staff support and a GDB update, it was a lot of back and forth that amounted to ; (Merchant houses will kill them. And then you will be in trouble.) I was actually okay with this after I threw some tantrums at my computer desk at the time.
But now? Now we've got it! its structured and everything I don't even have to figure it out how it will work its mapped out for me.

I bring this up because I'm sure I wasn't the only person to ever think or talk about that idea, and I am quite sure I certainly wasn't the first. However, if it had been allowed earlier because a PC leader was trusted to try it out as they were long-standing, functionalism might have given us that awesome game addition long ago, not just recently.  
There seems to be a trend where players consistently want to see something over a long period, and the staff ultimately make those changes.

Desertman ; I agree with you on many of the things you said.

However, qualms ;

-Rank doesn't matter because influence comes from recognition regardless -> I do not agree.

Things like ranks can lead to plot, competition, murder. Nobles fighting over singular titles. Shit like that.

Also, I'm super high so this should be friendly banter, if this sounds like a gripe or picking a bone I am not articulating well enough to let on I am under the impression we are having a friendly conversation.

[Nyr]

There seems to be a trend where players consistently want to see something over a long period, and the staff ultimately make those changes.

There's another trend where staff consistently want to see something over a long period, it requires vetting and work on top of normal, existing staff duties, and staff ultimately makes those changes.  I personally think the two trends are related. 

[Aruven]

There seems to be a trend where players consistently want to see something over a long period, and the staff ultimately make those changes.

There's another trend where staff consistently want to see something over a long period, it requires vetting and work on top of normal, existing staff duties, and staff ultimately makes those changes.  I personally think the two trends are related.  

[RogueGunslinger]

There seems to be a trend where players consistently want to see something over a long period, and the staff ultimately make those changes.

There's another trend where staff consistently want to see something over a long period, it requires vetting and work on top of normal, existing staff duties, and staff ultimately makes those changes.  I personally think the two trends are related. 

There's also a third trend where people ask, beg and plead for things and those things never happen.


ALL I WANT IS MY MASTERCRAFT FONDUE SET, NYR!!

[Delusion]

The rest of the examples provided seem hyperbolic though.  Nobles aren't poor (we revamped their pay in the past couple of years), a veteran soldier does indeed probably have more skill than a 2 month hunter, and there would indeed be multiple steps along the path to promot-a-storage, especially if you start helping at the beginning of someone's career.

I chose ranger and said that because that was pretty much my experience of playing a ranger not too long ago. That character could rake in enough money to put a current noble's stipend to shame, but I stopped because it felt silly. That character was also capable of - sometimes literally - eating things for breakfast that longer-lived, clanned PCs kept warning were very dangerous. The same character even bailed longer-lived, clanned PCs out of somewhat sticky situations on a couple occasions.

I really don't have the energy to debate anything more subjective, but I did do the above with a character without even fantastic stats. Coded power's wobbling off at a tangent from this thread, I guess.

[Semper]

Generating enough player-vs-player conflict that will not end up destroying the other party or getting some crazy backlash out of no-where. OR, even finding enough PCs to generate that kind of conflict. Or getting the resources (or minions) to put up any kind of fight...

When it gets hard for me, eventually I just have to rely on player vs environment interaction and that's not usually possible with a staff-sponsored role.

[Nyr]

There seems to be a trend where players consistently want to see something over a long period, and the staff ultimately make those changes.

There's another trend where staff consistently want to see something over a long period, it requires vetting and work on top of normal, existing staff duties, and staff ultimately makes those changes.  I personally think the two trends are related.  

There's also a third trend where people ask, beg and plead for things and those things never happen.


ALL I WANT IS MY MASTERCRAFT FONDUE SET, NYR!!

FYI really means "fondue-it-yourself" except like "fondue-yourself-it" or something

be the change

[Riev]

Piggybacking on Delusion's part of the debate.... That is part of the clanned vs non-clanned problem, and I'm sincerely hoping that current staff are looking into their implementation to make these roles a little more juicy.

As mentioned, an indie ranger can muck up coin and influence and combat skill, go create their own Minor House based on selling old artifacts to interested History Buffs, but a clanned Merchant can barely make 10% off sales, and only has the path to House Coin-Op, or "Master Crafter" which, by the time they reach that, it holds little meaning (due to many other factors).

However, more on topic for leadership...

Desertman has it right that part of the game is player interaction. Some may argue its the ONLY part of the game (except that would make us a MUSH). It is unfortunate that as part of a "Sponsored" role, leaders often do not feel sponsored at all. Aruven mentioned anecdotally that his staff wasn't on board with him getting the role.

Sponsored means to introduce and support (someone in this chosen role) but I don't know that the support is entirely fleshed out. How many templars have told underlings to "go question that NPC Merchant, find out who sold that Military-only weapon" only to find out it takes more than a wish, and about 2 RL weeks worth of question requests in the system?

I understand "everyone is a volunteer" except you didn't just volunteer, you went through a rigorous process of proving yourself over years playing the game to earn trust from current staff to do a JOB. If I volunteered for the Red Cross, and never went out for emergency response and used the excuse "Well, I'm a volunteer, so I don't always have time" they would fire my ass.

[Semper]

I imagine staff as volunteer firemen. They aren't always running around putting out fires, they also have jobs and family and lives too. But they volunteered to be Firemen even if it's a very demanding job because they love what the job entails.

[BadSkeelz]

Maybe I was just lucky with playtimes, but I found staff much more available than not for animating things like "the NPC merchant who's selling a militia weapon illegally." Usually when I had underlings along that I was trying to get involved, but sometimes even just for my own self. Sometimes I'd have to file a report to set up larger things like an apartment raid, but harassing a merchant or beggar could usually be accomplished with a Wish command and some patience.

Maybe staff didn't just want me continuing to murder NPCs who got on my PC's bad side. When beggars started dropping the random items they picked up because they heard my PC was coming, I was admittedly flattered.

Or maybe Staff were just willing to do favors like this for me and my clan because I rarely asked for anything else. I had the advantage of being a mid-tier leader with PC leaders over me who I could rely on to cook up crazier RPTs. I focused my leadership mostly on just playing a character and trying to bring the world around us alive. Having things like goals and plots always seemed like a hassle; keeping the clan a decent size to foster interaction was hard enough.

[Aruven]

Whatever happened to My 2 sids ? Talked about player-created clans in 2006 that one did. A prize needs be arranged.

[valeria]

Something about the idea of a leadership PC makes people feel like they should be able to accomplish bigger, better, more with that PC than with other PCs.  I feel like the eyes of a lot of leaders start with eyes that are bigger than their stomachs.  It's only natural to enter a role with a list of things you think would be cool to do.  But there is a gap between "this is what I want to do" and "this is what it is possible for me to do given the amount of time and energy I've devoted to trying to get it done."

My advice for wanting to "do" things in leadership roles:

1) What do you want to do?  What would it take realistically to get it done?
2) Is it a major change or a minor change?  As a general rule, asking to have anything added to the game, or change any existing game structure, is probably going to be a major change.

3) If it's a minor change, does it require staff support?
4) If not, tell staff that you're going to do it, and then do it.*  Take IC consequences if they come.
5) If so, think about how much time you think it will take to do it, multiple that number by 5 or so, and then consider yourself doing well if you're half way done when you thought you would be done.  If at all possible, try to avoid things that need staff support.

6) If it's a major change, work out exactly what you need from staff and what you can do yourself. 
7) Tell staff what you think you need from their end. Expect staff to tell you 'no' if you ask them out of the blue if you can have something or present them with an idea that you haven't really thought through.*
8 ) Decide whether it would be IC for your character to pursue your major change (anyway, if you've already asked and been told no).
9) Tell staff that you want to pursue it (anyway, if you've already asked and been told no).  Pursue it to the extent you can without staff support.  Keep staff updated about what you're doing.
10) Visit or revisit the issue after you've put a significant amount of work into it.  Staff might decide that it is worth putting the work in if you've already put the work in yourself.

*) Any time you think staff are telling you not to do something, ask them whether they are really telling you not to do it in an OOC sense, or if they are just telling you that it will be hard to do or that there may be consequences for doing it.  Unless staff tells you that you absolutely should not do something for some game documentation reason, do whatever your character would do.  Try to have fun doing it.

Overall, I've found that staff are very receptive to helping with small things when I'm willing to put the work in, have clearly established and realistic expectations for what I need, and I'm willing to be patient and flexible.  The more thought and in-game hours I've put into an idea, the more supportive staff is.

I don't usually try to make major changes though.  I've been shot down and frustrated plenty.  Still, I've found that "I want this thing" is a lot less persuasive than "look at all this work I've done toward this thing, what else would you need to make it happen."  Zalanthas is pretty much in a medieval stasis enforced by sorcerer kings anyway, so it sort of makes sense why change isn't embraced and doesn't happen that often.  That's what I tell myself, anyway, and I'm sticking to it. 

[Kryos]

Just want to jump in and keep it as brisk as possible, and direct as possible.  I get Nyr's perspective on the glass ceiling topic.  I really do.  But from a PC perspective, glass ceilings: SUCK.  At least this player's.  

Its rare that someone does well enough to hit the ceiling, as most of the world really is out to get you.  But getting to don that Red Robe, or <sekrit stuff>, is a kind of knock your socks off experience that sticks with people for life when they're involved in a hobby they love.

[ShaLeah]

Just want to jump in and keep it as brisk as possible, and direct as possible.  I get Nyr's perspective on the glass ceiling topic.  I really do.  But from a PC perspective, glass ceilings: SUCK.  At least this player's.  

Its rare that someone does well enough to hit the ceiling, as most of the world really is out to get you.  But getting to don that Red Robe, or <sekrit stuff>, is a kind of knock your socks off experience that sticks with people for life when they're involved in a hobby they love.

I agree.

I really feel like there SHOULDN'T be caps on players reaching high level, influential, powerful PCs because, unlike the days of high level PCs all being STAFF AVATARS and subject to *gasp* OOC corruption (think Ishahn and Pearl era), we're a different group of players and staff alike.  A player who's a fuck up and twink isn't going to be able to get to Red Robe, even if Nyr/Morg/Adhira/ness like them, why? Because they're not like that which means everyone below them will be caught/questioned if THEY do, be it favor or persecute a player.

Back when Tuluk was liberated an aide I played got seduced by a noble. I (the player) wasn't aware of that new no noble/commoner hoopla, the player of the noble WAS and even informed staff in reports BEFORE doing my PC. My PC fled Tuluk with their Capitan of the Guard and they were both assassinated right after getting to Allanak. That noble wasn't force stored after doing that and yet there's a black mark on MY account notes about it, and I didn't even KNOW about that rule. That noble lived a while after that as far as I know.
Now Chosen/Templars get immediately force stored when they break that rule. I agree with THAT %100 cause you know the limitations going INTO the role. 

Not too long ago there was a player driven sorcerer that got uber powerful. In my opinion that sorceror's longevity, influence and game world power were too much and probably led to the changes in the sorceror guild which RUINED that guild for anyone playing it from here on out. Now, having been involved in a plot with that group of scoundrels I can tell you first hand that there is no fucking way just anyone playing that sorcerer guild could have gotten away with half the shit that PC got away with.  He lived too long, in my player opinion, giving thought to the reality of the game world I don't know that the BIG powers that be would allow a potential threat to even get close.


You have the people who codedly get to the max mechanical wise with their PCs, you have players who twink and take advantage, you have people who dance the line but I really think forcibly retiring PCs because they can't get any higher is sad. I'd rather be bitchslapped/killed/shamed IC'ly (like happened not so long ago to a pc that got a bit too big for their britches that TONS of players were able to watch and participate in - how awesome was THAT?!) than to disappear into the estate/heart/temple/sands as an unremarkable.

At the end of the day it's what's best for the game. I would just rather HAVE the chance to really impact the game rather than be denied the chance because some assholes in the past took advantage/weren't stopped in time.

There is ALWAYS someone above you and that's always gonna be staff, no matter what rank you reach as a player. Always.

It'd be nice for the trust to be individually based. Not past transgressions based.

[Rokal]

Just want to jump in and keep it as brisk as possible, and direct as possible.  I get Nyr's perspective on the glass ceiling topic.  I really do.  But from a PC perspective, glass ceilings: SUCK.  At least this player's.  

Its rare that someone does well enough to hit the ceiling, as most of the world really is out to get you.  But getting to don that Red Robe, or <sekrit stuff>, is a kind of knock your socks off experience that sticks with people for life when they're involved in a hobby they love.

I agree.

I really feel like there SHOULDN'T be caps on players reaching high level, influential, powerful PCs because, unlike the days of high level PCs all being STAFF AVATARS and subject to *gasp* OOC corruption (think Ishahn and Pearl era), we're a different group of players and staff alike.  A player who's a fuck up and twink isn't going to be able to get to Red Robe, even if Nyr/Morg/Adhira/ness like them, why? Because they're not like that which means everyone below them will be caught/questioned if THEY do, be it favor or persecute a player.

Back when Tuluk was liberated an aide I played got seduced by a noble. I (the player) wasn't aware of that new no noble/commoner hoopla, the player of the noble WAS and even informed staff in reports BEFORE doing my PC. My PC fled Tuluk with their Capitan of the Guard and they were both assassinated right after getting to Allanak. That noble wasn't force stored after doing that and yet there's a black mark on MY account notes about it, and I didn't even KNOW about that rule. That noble lived a while after that as far as I know.
Now Chosen/Templars get immediately force stored when they break that rule. I agree with THAT %100 cause you know the limitations going INTO the role. 

Not too long ago there was a player driven sorcerer that got uber powerful. In my opinion that sorceror's longevity, influence and game world power were too much and probably led to the changes in the sorceror guild which RUINED that guild for anyone playing it from here on out. Now, having been involved in a plot with that group of scoundrels I can tell you first hand that there is no fucking way just anyone playing that sorcerer guild could have gotten away with half the shit that PC got away with.  He lived too long, in my player opinion, giving thought to the reality of the game world I don't know that the BIG powers that be would allow a potential threat to even get close.


You have the people who codedly get to the max mechanical wise with their PCs, you have players who twink and take advantage, you have people who dance the line but I really think forcibly retiring PCs because they can't get any higher is sad. I'd rather be bitchslapped/killed/shamed IC'ly (like happened not so long ago to a pc that got a bit too big for their britches that TONS of players were able to watch and participate in - how awesome was THAT?!) than to disappear into the estate/heart/temple/sands as an unremarkable.

At the end of the day it's what's best for the game. I would just rather HAVE the chance to really impact the game rather than be denied the chance because some assholes in the past took advantage/weren't stopped in time.

There is ALWAYS someone above you and that's always gonna be staff, no matter what rank you reach as a player. Always.

It'd be nice for the trust to be individually based. Not past transgressions based.

This is well said, and while im still a newb, i couldn't agree more. In the Rp  i come from aside arm, there was no such thing as foricibly retiring a character - they kept going until they died.  I don't know too much about force stores, but for infracions like you said, that sure makes sense, but for achieving something - honestly, if that happened to me, i'd be dissapointed! not just becuase the char's story is over, but because of how that could effect the other PCs they knew. Just dissapearing like that can have a huge effect on a character.

[Talia]

We don't "force store" PCs for achievement. But we don't allow certain high-ranking roles to be playable, either. Sometimes when a PC has lived a long time and done a lot, we allow the player to store their PC (because they don't want to play the PC anymore) and we give them a promotion at that time. The PC has not been "force stored;" they have been stored at the player's choice, and gotten a promotion at the same time.

Very high-ranking roles are not playable because they imbalance the game for other players, not because we don't trust players with them. One Red Robed templar in a city is more powerful than all the Blue Robes and junior nobles put together, and therefore can squash anything that they don't want to have happen. A Red Robe could execute junior nobles with impunity for the most part (at least the first couple), and they could make sure that junior nobles or Blues never got to do a single thing plot-wise. Does that sound fun? Not really. And that's why we don't allow roles like Red Robes and senior nobles to be playable. In addition, high-level roles of this kind tend to be extremely boring for the players, because they no longer have any peers and no one can challenge them. Good players who have the capability to be promoted to these roles want to have enemies and peers, but inherently these roles don't allow for that. No one fucks with a Red Robe, and that's just boring.

[Armaddict]

Very high-ranking roles are not playable because they imbalance the game for other players, not because we don't trust players with them. One Red Robed templar in a city is more powerful than all the Blue Robes and junior nobles put together, and therefore can squash anything that they don't want to have happen. A Red Robe could execute junior nobles with impunity for the most part (at least the first couple), and they could make sure that junior nobles or Blues never got to do a single thing plot-wise. Does that sound fun? Not really. And that's why we don't allow roles like Red Robes and senior nobles to be playable. In addition, high-level roles of this kind tend to be extremely boring for the players, because they no longer have any peers and no one can challenge them. Good players who have the capability to be promoted to these roles want to have enemies and peers, but inherently these roles don't allow for that. No one fucks with a Red Robe, and that's just boring.

That's kind of a strange way to see it.  They could also be acting oversight for all said junior nobles and blue robes, the same way junior nobles and blue robes are oversight for those below them.  They don't have to be actively plotting anymore, they're the ones that are getting things passed through them, and discovering the crooked things that aren't being passed through them and making sure that doesn't happen again.  MAYBE they'd just start executing junior nobles, but I've never seen a PC red robe go to those extremes without staff discussion anyway.

Senior nobles, I can be more on the level with that mentality, since they come with an inherent bias and will tip the scale.  A templar, however, comes with the inherent bias that is -accurate-.

Either way, I never planned on having one.  However, I think the upper end of society is very lacking as far as merit/achievement is concerned.  If PC noobles and templars have an entire lifetime of achievement after achievement, of successful project after successful project, maybe they -should- have a little more weight to throw around instead of depending on Jack the New Blue Robe, etc, etc, to recognize it over and over again.

[Talia]

Either way, I never planned on having one.  However, I think the upper end of society is very lacking as far as merit/achievement is concerned.  If PC noobles and templars have an entire lifetime of achievement after achievement, of successful project after successful project, maybe they -should- have a little more weight to throw around instead of depending on Jack the New Blue Robe, etc, etc, to recognize it over and over again.

We already have a system of lateral or sub-senior progression for the majority of noble houses in Allanak and Tuluk. There is also a rewards or progression system for both templarates.

They don't have to be actively plotting anymore, they're the ones that are getting things passed through them, and discovering the crooked things that aren't being passed through them and making sure that doesn't happen again.

This ends up being fun for the player of the senior noble or templar, and completely un-fun for the players of juniors. New juniors come on the scene and find they cannot engage in murder, corruption, and betrayal without the specific and explicit permission of a higher-ranked PC. We don't animate NPCs to stomp these kinds of plots out, nor do we want PCs doing it.

We've gone around and around on this discussion in the past so that's all I'm going to say about right now. I posted so that a newer player could understand the staff perspective, not to re-hash it.

[Patuk]

I can see how having a PC red robe/high templar would mess up things for in-city politics. Every Red robe has a dozen or so blues below him, and I imagine High templars are similarly high ranked. You can't mess with that kind of person. Armaddict makes a good point at least in saying that such people are going to be very unbiased in the sense that they are so above the normal city politics that they can't quite be swayed by them at all.

If Red robe-tier templars are too high of rank for in-city politics and just can't do shit without squashing people, what I think would be the best solution is for said templar to be the go-to person where it comes to plotting actions against the rival city-state. It could be great, if they wouldn't get overzealous and kill everyone who failed a sneak check half the world away instantly. I think there would be many people who'd like playing secret agents and engage in high-level subterfuge under the command of people who really can't functionally play inside their own city anyway.

Or I could be wrong. But next time you say red robes would have nothing to do at all, consider it at least. It could be fantastic.

[Talia]

If Red robe-tier templars are too high of rank for in-city politics and just can't do shit without squashing people, what I think would be the best solution is for said templar to be the go-to person where it comes to plotting actions against the rival city-state. It could be great, if they wouldn't get overzealous and kill everyone who failed a sneak check half the world away instantly. I think there would be many people who'd like playing secret agents and engage in high-level subterfuge under the command of people who really can't functionally play inside their own city anyway.

These things can already be done by PCs at currently playable levels. Maybe they are being done already? Find out IC!