How to make stealing more fun

[nauta]

So, stealing is kind of boring, for both parties. 

First, for the thief: stealing is super risky even with max steal, because on a fail, even a partial fail, everyone will OOCly know it was -you- even if the echo says it was someone ruffling with your jewels or whatever.

Second, for the thieved, since successful steals don't give any echo, often people don't know if they were stolen from for quite a while, and by the time they do, they aren't sure if it was a thief or just a misplacement. (I've quite a few cases where I've stolen from someone and then lurked, and, first, it took weeks for them to notice it was missing, and then they were like: meh, whatever, musta misplaced it.  My poor thief was heartbroken.)

I think the solution is to implement random NPC/VNPC steal attempts, which will almost always fail (but give echoes). It solves the first problem, because then you won't know if it was a random NPC/VNPC steal attempt or that other PC in the room with you.  It solves the second problem, because such echoes would have you check your inventory / stealable locations more often.

[Fujikoma]

Did you steal from me or something?

Best way to grief thieves: Ah well, wasn't that important anyway.

[Narf]

Actually, having "failed steal" messages as a rare echo for certain rooms rather than actual VNPC steal attempts might do the trick and be easier to code (as in there wouldn't be any coding involved).

Be a little weird that everyone in the room gets the same echo at the same time though, but I can imagine selected echos might make the coding more difficult.

[whitt]

Oh I was hoping this would go in the other direction...

1- nerf Sneak so it's not as good as invisibility
2- de-criminalize subduing anyone that fails at a steal check for some period of time
3- pummel speed walkers who are back to safety twenty rooms away before the PCs present can even parse that someone failed at stealing and type a response.

[Patuk]

Oh, poor you, you once had twelve sid stolen off you. Armageddon's criminal element is woefully difficult to play already.

- Due to the number of PC's generally being quite small and people playing multiple PC's, it's really hard to be a scammer, con artist, swindler or snake oil salesman. As soon as you're exposed, word is gonna spread.
- Zealous soldiers are zealous. Stick a hand in someone's cloak in the Gaj? Instasoldierganksquad. Try to bash someone's face in outside a tavern? SUFFER THE HIGHLORD'S FURY
- Stealth outside the realm of coded invisibility is not very useful. Even if you're gonna fail and show an echo once every ten steps, shadowing becomes an impossibility.
- People running off after they were noticed by everyone and their mother after an attempted theft? PREPOSTEROUS

[BadSkeelz]

Nerf stealth invisibility cloak. Nerf the Seal Team 6 Militia Tactical Response Units who zipline down from the rooftops to own your ass for anything against the crimcode (Alternatively, make it so this only happens to things like sorcerers). Allow citizen subdues. And most importantly, players on both sides need to be more responsible.

Thief PCs get ganked by players so much because they're played in an annoying fashion and can't be countered by the vast majority of PCs. Thieves need to show some moderation in what, where, and how they steal items; the rest of us need to be more moderate in our responses. No thousand-sid bounties for stolen goods worth a quarter of that. When that kind of coin gets thrown around, the Templarates should start asking WHERE all that coin is coming from. Unless the thief is one of those annoying "Rah rah fight the powah" types, they don't need to be thrown in to the arena. Well, maybe they do, but they don't need to be put up against Bonesaw the MachoMul. Let them get out with a good ass kicking. And thieves (and other criminals), when you're released by the templarate, don't go on some idiotic revenge power trip against Authority. All this does is make it all the more likely the next thief who gets caught is going to get ganked.

[Asanadas]

Giving hide a five second, obvious tell delay,

"The tall, muscular man attempts to hide from sight!"

Would be nice. It's been very jarring to find someone was there and then they activated the cloak field and completely vanished.

As far as making stealing more fun: don't steal important things, and it won't be deemed very important. Steal something important to a person, and expect retaliation of some degree.

[HavokBlue]

When someone vanishes from sight with Hide I usually just imagine them pulling a Batman.

When gith vanish from sight...

[BadSkeelz]

I've always appreciated those who actually throw in an emote justifying their disappearance, more so than the Batdwarfs of the game.

[RogueGunslinger]

Emoting you're about to hide is problematic. It's like saying "Hey, don't let me do this." I prefer Hemotes.

I like the idea of hide giving off an automatic hemote though. That would be perfect.

[nauta]

I agree with badskeelz that both sides need to RP things in proportion, but that's awfully hard to do, for both sides.  The thief could toss out an emote that someone had bumped the victim, and so risk the outrageously OOC retaliation.   The thieved could try to resist acting on the OOC knowledge they have that, roughly, if stolen from, must be PC.

Frankly, I think this has a negative effect on the thief: I know that I rarely have any desire to actually steal something since the reward is vastly outweighed by the risk (even if I have max hide/sneak/steal).  You can't sell the stuff, or brag about it, and honestly with the economy as it is, there's no reason to steal, even for a rinther.

By introducing more NPC/VNPC echos (or even universal echoes as suggested above), we'd at least move in a direction toward making the identification of the thief less obvious.

[whitt]

Nerf stealth invisibility cloak. Nerf the Seal Team 6 Militia Tactical Response Units who zipline down from the rooftops to own your ass for anything against the crimcode (Alternatively, make it so this only happens to things like sorcerers). Allow citizen subdues. And most importantly, players on both sides need to be more responsible.

Thief PCs get ganked by players so much because they're played in an annoying fashion and can't be countered by the vast majority of PCs.

QFT.

Frankly, I think this has a negative effect on the thief: I know that I rarely have any desire to actually steal something since the reward is vastly outweighed by the risk (even if I have max hide/sneak/steal).  You can't sell the stuff, or brag about it, and honestly with the economy as it is, there's no reason to steal, even for a rinther.

By introducing more NPC/VNPC echos (or even universal echoes as suggested above), we'd at least move in a direction toward making the identification of the thief less obvious.

NPC/VNPC echoes won't change the lack of need to steal because... rich.  Nor is anything you steal going to become any more valuable because of echoes.  Nor will it dial down the desire to PWN the thief you did catch...

...because, at the end of the day, this boils down to if a PC thief is stealing from a PC victim, they're doing it to get one over on the player of that PC and folks tend to respond irrationally to that.

[Inks]

Let the code sort it out. The crime code response is so rapid that I never begrudge folks using the code to escape.

What Patuk said, basically. Also it's just digital possessions on an OOC level but some players just act outrageous. Some are very good but unless you are bored of your character then it can be hard to take that risk.

I think seeing a PC thief stealing from you because he is trying to get one over you entirely the wrong attitude. Play your PCs the way you want.

Sometimes I feel the people really bashing on stealthies are the ones who barely ever play them. For instance, warrior bash is like running up to someone at the speed of light and bowling them over, yet I never feel like it is an abuse of the code when it happens without someone emoting charging at the PC.

Code I would like implemented is a "You notice X is missing" with a time based on wisdom for the victim.

[whitt]

I think seeing a PC thief stealing from you because he is trying to get one over you entirely the wrong attitude. Play your PCs the way you want.

Are they doing it to set up a scene?

Enhance the victim's RP experience?

Add to the atmosphere that stuff just gets stolen?

How do they react when things are stolen from them?

I'm going to guesstimate, in 80% of the cases, the reason is because stealing from NPCs is too easy and offers no thrill of what happens if they get caught.

Sometimes I feel the people really bashing on stealthies are the ones who barely ever play them. For instance, warrior bash is like running up to someone at the speed of light and bowling them over, yet I never feel like it is an abuse of the code when it happens without someone emoting charging at the PC.

Can't disappear in front of a crowds eyes and walk around like the invisible man with any other skill.  Even magic has a -very- noticeable effect before and as it happens and can be detected 100% of the time with certain counters.  That's the problem I see with it, regardless of it I use it or not.

[Patuk]

Magic also actually works 100% of the time people notice it.

Stealth getting noticed means it's an intrinsic failure. It's a dumb comparation to make. A krathi getting noticed in slinging his fireballs loses much less than a spy missing a hide check.

[whitt]

Magic also actually works 100% of the time people notice it.

Stealth getting noticed means it's an intrinsic failure. It's a dumb comparation to make. A krathi getting noticed in slinging his fireballs loses much less than a spy missing a hide check.

Ok, so what would you say *is* a fair comparison to Sneak?  Which allows you to vanish from in front of a room full of people with no echo to anyone? Magick might be the only even close comparison.  And to your point, it's not close.  Sneak is that much better.

Want to make Stealing more fun?  Give both parties a way to react to it.

[nauta]

Can't disappear in front of a crowds eyes and walk around like the invisible man with any other skill.  Even magic has a -very- noticeable effect before and as it happens and can be detected 100% of the time with certain counters.  That's the problem I see with it, regardless of it I use it or not.

I'm not sure on the statistics or whatever, but here's something to keep in mind:

There's a huge risk involved in hiding and shadowing someone.  If you shadow them somewhere and you get revealed, you are pretty screwed.  Nothing worse than shadowing someone, going off for a coffee, and coming back inside their LOCKED apartment or barracks, oops, heh.  Sneaks often will, as a result, scope out their victims and ensure that the victim's "eyesight" isn't that good, but even so, there's always a chance you will fail, and I've had it happen in some rather precarious situations, even maxed out.  (I believe hide "wears out" over time, although, again, no real way to tell.) I do know that when I'm shadowing someone, even maxed out, I'm on the edge of my seat most of the time, in fear they will discover me.

tl; dr: I think the hide code is pretty ok.

I do agree that some places should be flagged NOHIDE (smallish apartments, well lit hallways), but I try my best to always think "I'm hiding here - what does that mean" and semote something and change ldesc.  Often with shadow you don't have time, and are along for the ride, even if it is over the shield wall or into the maws of the pitchcloaks.

I agree that the idea here is to brainstorm a way to make stealing more fun.  As it stands it's kind of a worthless skill that doesn't really have neat RP opportunities.  At least with SAP and BACKSTAB you have the failure and delay and then that awkward: um, why you do that? moment.

[Fujikoma]

Hide code is fine. Magickers get a lot of things sneakies don't, along with faster development. Comparing magickers and pickpockets is like comparing ginkas to kzul, and therefor I fail to see your argument, Whitt.

An expert thief has spent their entire life learning to soundlessly slip into a crowd with any number of possible distractions, vanishing, for all practical purposes.

[BadSkeelz]

An expert thief has spent their entire life learning to soundlessly slip into a crowd with any number of possible distractions, vanishing, for all practical purposes.

All the more reason to gank 'em while they're young.

I'll post a more reasoned response when I get home. Maybe. GDB's not very interesting when I'm at home among my other toys.

[CodeMaster]

Nauta - the way you describe steal makes me think it's perfect!  The high risk factor associated with stealing from PCs makes it anything but boring to me (it's such a nailbiter).  And the fact that your past victims didn't notice until later is completely realistic.

Actually, having "failed steal" messages as a rare echo for certain rooms rather than actual VNPC steal attempts might do the trick

Some version of this already exists in the Allanaki bazaar, where you occasionally get echoes about your cloak being tugged on, etc.  Some other places occasionally give echoes about elves bumping past you.

It would be interesting to make these types of messages indistinguishable from the coded steal-fail messages, rendering the bazaar a great hideout for newbie pickpockets.  But it would also serve just to harass the (majority of) players who aren't playing pickpockets, so I don't know whether this would be a "fun" change overall.


As for people inexpicably disappearing with hide: I absolutely agree this can be annoying.

But I'll play devil's advocate and mention the flip-side of the coin: people rarely roleplay being distracted (me included - something I can improve).

There is a partial remedy for both sides of the coin: religious use of 'watch'.  I read some old threads describing 'watch' when it was first introduced, and it was described as a game changer - but I feel like more people would make use this interesting skill if it were a little easier to deploy.

For example, it would be really cool if the last person you looked at, used "tell" on, or otherwise interacted with in the last few seconds could be autowatched with a single command -- even if they were hidden:

Code Select Expand


> look elf
You look up at the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
A handsome elf with a bright future ahead.
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak is in excellent condition.
<about body>   a dark, hooded cloak

> tell figure Got my eyes on you, dirtbag...
Nobody here by that name.

> autowatch
That person moved into hiding.

(or)

> autowatch
You begin watching a tall shadow.


Or maybe:

Code Select Expand


> look elf
You look up at the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
A handsome elf with a bright future ahead.
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak is in excellent condition.
<about body>   a dark, hooded cloak

> tell figure Got my eyes on you, dirtbag...
Nobody here by that name.

> autowatch
You notice the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak just snuck to the north.
You are now watching the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.


Or if you waited too long:

Code Select Expand


> look elf
You look up at the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
A handsome elf with a bright future ahead.
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak is in excellent condition.
<about body>   a dark, hooded cloak

> tell figure Got my eyes on you, dirtbag...
Nobody here by that name.

> autowatch
Too much time has passed; you have no idea where they went.


[nauta]

...the rest of us need to be more moderate in our responses. No thousand-sid bounties for stolen goods worth a quarter of that. When that kind of coin gets thrown around, the Templarates should start asking WHERE all that coin is coming from. Unless the thief is one of those annoying "Rah rah fight the powah" types, they don't need to be thrown in to the arena. Well, maybe they do, but they don't need to be put up against Bonesaw the MachoMul. Let them get out with a good ass kicking. And thieves (and other criminals), when you're released by the templarate, don't go on some idiotic revenge power trip against Authority. All this does is make it all the more likely the next thief who gets caught is going to get ganked.

Actually, there are IC consequences to overzealous reactions, so I don't tend to think this is as much of a problem as others seem to.

I guess to reword my initial idea a bit: I'd like it if people noticed that they were stolen from more often.  Maybe thieves should just plant more than they steal.  That vibrating strapon surely wasn't in my hand when I went into the Gaj, was it?

[Talia]

This thread has tended to almost discuss recent IC events quite a bit. Please don't do that. This kind of skirting the edges of discussion of actual IC happenings is not a good practice; everyone involved ends up getting hints about things. (Not to mention people are outing themselves as player-of-Amos.)

[BadSkeelz]

I stand by my position that most thieves aren't played very well.

Planting could definitely lead to some fun shenanigans, but also potential griefing in Allanak where spice can draw NPC attention. I think we can all agree that crime is funnest when it's PC to PC and isn't liable to immediately descend in to murder.

Let the code sort it out. The crime code response is so rapid that I never begrudge folks using the code to escape.

Do you LIKE being romperstomped by NPCs, or by PCs that have grown tired of people taking advantage of code? Outrageous actions by both sides are driven by a vicious cycle of overpowered code (Stealth and crimcode) and OOC considerations. It's not just people who are stolen from who over-react; I've seen enough player criminals over the years react to being caught by pursuing suicidal vendettas against authority that it's better to just kill new PCs outright. Players have overwrought attachments to their items, but also their sense of entitlement for being treated "respectfully."

The psychological problems for why petty crime descends in to hack-and-slash are more difficult to address, but we can at least loosen the code so that more petty crime and counter-crime can exist. If crime was more common (or noticeable) and less of a big deal, people might react to it in a more reasoned manner.

I wonder if part of the problem might be that items in Zalanthas are both very expensive and also practically indestructible. People are used to buying all their sweet gear and then never needing to replace it. If armor and weapons wore out more, people would need to replace it more, Merchants wouldn't need to charge so much for it, and thievery would become part of a more natural attrition rate.

[RogueGunslinger]

Having played on both sides of the fence, for every stupid ass thief who over reacts to being caught and seeks suicide, there is an equally stupid ass suicidal soldier chasing thieves into the labyrinth because they lost their jade-pommeled obsidian saber. I don't think poor play is limited to thieves.

I think the problem is not with the code but with how people act when it's used. I don't really think things need to be changed on the coded side of things. Making items cheaper and more prone to breaking is interesting, but I don't think it will make people any less pissed off about thieves. People don't hate thieves because they're attached to their items, they hate them for the same reason a thief hates being caught and beat up by soldiers.

They take it as a personal affront. "How dare you steal from me!?" And things escalate from there.


I like the idea of making crime more common and less of a big deal, but I honestly don't know how you would do that codedly. Going to jail isn't really a big deal as it is. Stealing is only dangerous because of PC's, not the crime-code which can easily be avoided.

[Twilight]

Pretty sure there used to be a NPC in Nak's bazaar that would attempt to steal from people, every once in a while.  Haven't seen it in at least a decade now, though.

[Patuk]

I think weapons breaking would be a good start. Bone and obsidian weaponry would break all the time, and even wood would crack after regular use.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not really seeing hit.

[BadSkeelz]

People don't care as much when inexpensive or more readily replaceable things are stolen. Heck, a lot of the time they might not even notice. When valuable items are stolen, people tend to take it more personally. Part of it is because the time you invested in getting the sid, getting the item (possibly having to go through PCs over RL days and weeks), has just now essentially become wasted. What I'm proposing is that we make items in the game more disposable, so people don't freak out so much at the thought of replacement, or feel so violated when the items are suddenly taken from them. Our characters should treat items like we treat our characters: cherished, protected, but also resigned to the loss and replacement thereof.

Right now you can go through an entire character's life using only a single weapon. Weapons breaking in combat are the exception, not the rule. Someone who "knows" this can reasonably expect to be using that weapon forever... so when that weapon is suddenly stolen, it's a much bigger sense of loss and outrage. It's ratcheted up from "Damn, I hope I can get that sick sword back and also tweak the nose of the thief who stole it, but I better move on to a replacement" to "They have stolen my cherished 800 sid heirloom sword THEY SHALL PAY WITH THEIR LIVES."

This doesn't mean I think the burglar who steals your 2700 'sid couch out of your apartment just because he can is doing it right, either.

[nauta]

I'm not really seeing hit.

Assuming 'hit' means 'it', me neither.  

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

[Inks]

I love Skeelz's idea about weapon/ item breakage.

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe after storing characters with entire sets of rare, powerful gear multiple times I've just come to already not see items as valuable. I do see your point though, Badskeelz. I'm just not a fan of item degradation in any game.

[CodeMaster]

I'm not really seeing hit.

Assuming 'hit' means 'it', me neither.  

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

Just to recap and re-rail us: I like the idea about echoes, but I think it would end up being an OOC drag for players more than adding fun to the game.  Imagine if the game randomly gave you false "you are thirsty" messages -- it would be enraging!

But that's my opinion, and I have to say I genuinely agree with the idea of making stealing more engaging for both parties.  So I'll spitball a bit more:

Regarding (a): couldn't you just emote (perhaps even while hidden, so not a hemote or even semote) that you tugged on your target's cuff or something as you passed him/her through the crowd?

Also note that if the stolen item is heavy enough, and the victim has his/her encumbrance in his/her prompt, the game is going to tell him/her something's up.

However, I DO agree it would be cool from a gameplay perspective if you got some kind of (cryptic!) indication that someone stole from you.  Maybe the victim could lose a single stun point when it happens to indicate that someone successfully distracted you.  Hard to notice, and it shouldn't knock the victim out () but definitely tangible.


Regarding (b), there are numerous complementary skills that will enable you to steal unnoticed and unseen.  I won't go into the specifics, but a master pickpocket is exactly that, and there comes a point in each master pickpocket's career at which he is basically letting people keep their belongings out of charity.

[whitt]

None of the above addresses the two responses to being the victim of a theft:
a) I don't care.
b) I will hunt you to the ends of the Known for daring to steal from me.

... open up a non-lethal avenue for RP between thief and victim, if you want to make stealing more fun.  Right now it's

A) Boring
or
B) Fatal
for the thief.

and
A) An ignorable distraction
or
B) An unwanted hassle
for the victim.

That's the dynamic that needs to change - it's not the skills or the items involved or the economy.  It becomes more fun when the action actually opens doors to more RP options for all parties involved.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't know what thieves you've been playing, but stealing from a PC has never really be boring for me. Then again I've never had master-steal. I usually start sweating and get the shakes, which is funny because combat doesn't really do it for me.

[CodeMaster]

... open up a non-lethal avenue for RP between thief and victim, if you want to make stealing more fun.  Right now it's

A) Boring
or
B) Fatal
for the thief.

I have to agree with RogueGunslinger that I was never bored when I was doing the pthief thing.  But just in case you do get bored, there's lots of roleplay activities that'll make the act more exciting:

- Brag about it to one of your friends, turn it into a fun story to tell over the campfire
- Ransom the item to its original owner, maybe by proxy
- Buy favor by giving the item to another PC and letting him/her be the one to return it
- Plant the item at the scene of a murder

But I agree with you that it sucks if it has to be fatal to the thief.

Honestly, if I knew who the master pickpocket who stole from me was, I would bend over backwards to get him on my payroll.    My enemies wouldn't know a moment of peace.

and
A) An ignorable distraction
or
B) An unwanted hassle
for the victim.

That's the dynamic that needs to change - it's not the skills or the items involved or the economy.  It becomes more fun when the action actually opens doors to more RP options for all parties involved.

Fair enough, and I agree with this point.  Being pthiefed from probably isn't going to be an awesome experience for the victim, but neither are murder and betrayal -- the hope is that the whole affair ends up stitching itself into a wider storyline, and I think the responsibility is ours (the players') to strive to use these skills to this end.

[chrisdcoulombe]

There are alot of ways to steal, Try a con.  Start with an easy one. 

Npcs are generally pretty easy to get away from imo, and if you do get caught, just go to jail.

"A simple trick dating back hundreds of years, the Pig in a Poke involves selling an item on the street, but switching the container so the buyer ends up with nothing. Originally, this involved convincing the gullible customer that a bag contained a delicious pig, when it actually contained a worthless cat. Though it seems archaic, versions of this trick are still practiced today. The street seller shows the mark their product, but exchanges the package after the sale is made."

From http://brainz.org/10-most-devious-street-cons-and-how-avoid-them/

Look up others.  There are a million of them and there is always someone who will go along with it even if they know what is going on for the sake of role play.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the thread was meant for the coded steal skill.

[Fujikoma]

I think a disguise skill for sneakies would be GREAT, items like a false mustache could grant bonuses (silly as it would be, I think it would be hillarious), with a chance to see through it with high-level watch or scan, except at master level disguise. Could set a command like ddesc, which would be seen instead of your mdesc, and something like sddesc to overwrite your sdesc...

However, this would likely still be vulnerable to way-sniffing and keywords... hmmm, probably too complicated but fun to think about.

[Patuk]

Just give hooded PC's the sdescs of their hoods/facewraps/whatever upon being wayed. Problem solved.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I think the thread was meant for the coded steal skill.

Oh I thought it was How to Make Stealing More Fun. 

[RogueGunslinger]

I could see how one would think that had they not read the thread, but the OP talks about the steal skill explicitly. And they also came back and said this:

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

Don't get me wrong, your post is great advice for thief types, especially for elves. Scamming can be tons of fun.

[Chettaman]

Might I steal a suggestion already given?

You're sitting at the bar. No one comes in. No one leaves. You've been there for ten minutes. When suddenly...
"You notice your pockets are lighter."  || when this message comes up you can OOCly think, "Dammit." you can ICly think "DAMMIT!", check all your pockets and scramble to find any suspicious people.

You're sitting at the bar. No one comes in. No one leaves. You've been there for... - just a moment
"You notice the dood with hair's hand in your pocket!" || when this message comes up, another message is prompted...
"incriminate the dood with hair? Yes or no?" or maybe the character being stolen from is just able to use the incriminate command. -- anyway. After you type "yes" your character will automatically shout "Thief!" like an npc and the other guy will be incriminated. In the case of "no" nothing will happen. In this time, the thief can run or you know... stay. In this light, there would be a delay to the thief in a failed steal.

____
I also want to say hide does echo. Sneak also echoes. Use watch. Use listen. Use scan. Pick guilds to beat sneak-thieves if you don't like them.
____

Now for the rp aspect. Doods. Dooddettes. You're already taking a huge chance when you use the steal command. Just emote bumping into someone. Point at something that's not really there and then use the command when they emote looking that way. throw ale in their face, dust in their eyes, work with a partner. Who cares if someone uses OOC knowledge? What are they gonna do if you're successful? Get angry at you? Plot against you for life? What are they gonna do if they catch you? Know how to react when you failed? Want you dead or in jail? The guards want that since you failed too. Just emote, doods.

Of course being stolen from is annoying. The point is someone used you to gain something. Of course it's annoying.
No one noticed you stole from them? Someone /did/ notice their items were gone, but didn't care? That's like getting mad at someone for not finding you attractive. Why not, (while staying in line with your character) do something like follow them home and take more of that person's items specifically - since they didn't care so much. Why not have your character /really/ take offense to that?
I guess, though, if you're bored OOCly it's up to you.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I could see how one would think that had they not read the thread, but the OP talks about the steal skill explicitly. And they also came back and said this:

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

Don't get me wrong, your post is great advice for thief types, especially for elves. Scamming can be tons of fun.

Yeah I read that,  I just don't think the code is gonna get changed, but there are alot of things to make stealing fun.  Some of my favorite characters were criminals.  Robbed a Mul as an elf once.  Through intimidation, I am surprised the character didn't die right then. 

[CodeMaster]

Might I steal a suggestion already given?

You're sitting at the bar. No one comes in. No one leaves. You've been there for ten minutes. When suddenly...
"You notice your pockets are lighter."  || when this message comes up you can OOCly think, "Dammit." you can ICly think "DAMMIT!", check all your pockets and scramble to find any suspicious people.

Interesting thought, but is this really any different than "you feel a hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit?"  [I guess it would be a message that you get when someone succeeds a steal on you, but what kind of success is that? ] Note you can put your encumbrance in your prompt if you want to pay extra close attention to it.  It won't help you catch everything, but could help you catch something.

Just emote bumping into someone. Point at something that's not really there and then use the command when they emote looking that way. throw ale in their face, dust in their eyes, work with a partner.

I recommend checking out some youtube videos of pickpockets in action - it can be illuminating.  Pickpockets don't draw attention to themselves by throwing ale or dust in people's faces or playing "made you look".  They operate in crowded, noisy places and prey on distracted people.

But working with a partner is a great idea and is also very realistic - good suggestion.  If you can get your mark's attention on your partner (or anyone else for that matter) then stealing is going to be a heck of a lot easier.  I believe this is reflected in the code, as per hints you see in threads about the 'watch' skill.

Who cares if someone uses OOC knowledge?

I do.  We can do better than that.

[Fujikoma]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

[chrisdcoulombe]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

Punishment isn't death.  Make a few throw aways and figure it out.  Nosave arrest is the command you need to play with.  Good luck.

[Fujikoma]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

Punishment isn't death.  Make a few throw aways and figure it out.  Nosave arrest is the command you need to play with.  Good luck.

... try playing a Nakki elf. Perhaps this will change in the future. I've found out IC from watching others find out IC. Fart wrong and the punishment is death, or at least missing a hand.

[Chettaman]

xD Don't worry, Code master. I was (mostly) joking about throwing dirt in people faces.
Fact: People get rings and watches stolen during hand shakes. Necklaces during hugs.

But don't rule out "the ole made you look"... it's the oldest trick in the book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUpbS92WrLQ

_____
Fear not punishment ooc or ic!
Play your characters and get ready to die.
You took the time to imagine this character and everything they would do.
Take a deep breath and do it.

[chrisdcoulombe]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

Punishment isn't death.  Make a few throw aways and figure it out.  Nosave arrest is the command you need to play with.  Good luck.

... try playing a Nakki elf. Perhaps this will change in the future. I've found out IC from watching others find out IC. Fart wrong and the punishment is death, or at least missing a hand.

IDK what you are talking about.  Maybe the current Templars are jerks.  I can tell you how all my nakki c-elves, with max steal, that went to jail multiple times died.  Never lost a hand.   Try cutting deals.  Lie, cheat, steal and play a criminal.  If you sit back and let a Templar take your hand, so be it.  One less hand is an rp tool. 

Tell Templar (groveling on the dirty floor of the jail cell)  Don't take my hand, please Lord Templar Trouteater,  I have information for you, I am just so hungry...Please some rat tail soup.  I will tell you whatever you want to know.

[BadSkeelz]

Elves don't deserve RP.

[Kol]

Elves don't  RP.

FTFY

[chrisdcoulombe]

Wants to make an elf now.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything BadSkeelz has to say on this matter, so far.

Players have overwrought attachments to their items, but also their sense of entitlement for being treated "respectfully."

^ That is absolutely at the heart of this issue (and many, many others) to me. I think every character starts at a realistic spot on the social ladder - you're broke, you don't know anybody important, and your skills are basically worthless. You have an appropriate sense of pride, which is to say "none." Then something extraordinary happens about the time you get a couple skills to Journeyman, and have a working report with half a dozen characters - you become too important to roll with the everyday, mundane happenings of Zalanthas. If you're caught stealing a flimsy bone knife from a first day character, he might complain, but that's about it. If you get caught stealing the same knife from the same day five player, suddenly him and all his buddies will have a personal vendetta against you. They'll probably even warn complete strangers to tighten their belts every time you walk into the bar.

From the idealistic RP perspective, that's ridiculous. This is Zalanthas. It's a third world country full of destitute, hungry people with no social permeability, and almost no economic means. Theft is common. Crime is everyday. You're having your pocket picked right now.

From the realistic playability perspective, that's also why I disagree with your assertion that "stealing is not fun." It's right up there with PKilling for me. My heart is pounding, my hands are shaking. If someone walks into the room in the middle of it and asks me what I'm doing, I grunt unintelligibly and swat at them like Big Foot fielding questions on Larry King Live. This is a (probably somewhat) rare moment that can have huge, long-lasting effects to both you and the players around you. Sure, stealing from NPCs is routine, but from PCs, it's a rush. If it ain't, don't play a thief. 

I don't think the "stealth invisibility cloak" (play a fucking class with scan and shuddup) needs removed, because the field is stacked heavily enough against the thief to begin with. We've all seen it - an item goes missing, and all the PCs know exactly who it was. Regardless of whether the code says "Someone, you don't see who..." or whether it was a complete success and you only noticed it after the fact by typing "eq" when you saw someone's "... walks past you." emote. Hell, even if the thief snuck in, hid, succeeded on stealth, and snuck back out all without being seen by a single soul, most players will realize on an OOC level that it could only have been one of about a half dozen viable candidates in their play area. And I'm sorry, but because of the quote from BadSkeelz above, I simply don't trust the average player to keep that info where it belongs - OOC.

As noted before, most attempts to steal from PCs are meant personally to stick it to the character/player. It's easy and safe enough to earn a living off of NPCs, that there's no need to target PCs unless there's a greater reason. I mean, don't get me wrong, as a thief you technically should be mixing it up a bit, but still, I think a good number of PC pickpocket attempts are meant to be personal.

As for the idea of common steal echoes - I like it. Why shouldn't there be NPC pickpockets hanging around in areas like the Allanaki Bazaar? Tuluki Tribal Market? The main roads leading into and out of cities. Sure, a lot of them have echoes to the effect of "You feel someone pulling on your cloak" but those are instantly identified as just that - echoes. Especially if it's not the first time you've read them. They do not at all match with the echoes that we all know mean that a PC is stealing from us. And as such... they're usually just ignored. We don't take the time to respond to them everytime. If they matched the real PP echoes, we probably actually would. We would at least stop and type "eq".  It would make for a more realistic and immersive world, and would give the PC thieves of the game safer zones to operate in.

The psychological problems for why petty crime descends in to hack-and-slash are more difficult to address, but we can at least loosen the code so that more petty crime and counter-crime can exist. If crime was more common (or noticeable) and less of a big deal, people might react to it in a more reasoned manner.

I wonder if part of the problem might be that items in Zalanthas are both very expensive and also practically indestructible. People are used to buying all their sweet gear and then never needing to replace it. If armor and weapons wore out more, people would need to replace it more, Merchants wouldn't need to charge so much for it, and thievery would become part of a more natural attrition rate.

I love both of these ideas - may have to disqus on another thread to avoid derail.

[yousuff]

I briefly brought up the idea of an increase im armour wear and weapons shattering on the RAT, but it went unnoticed I do think it would really add to the game's economy

[CodeMaster]

Great post jack.

As noted before, most attempts to steal from PCs are meant personally to stick it to the character/player. It's easy and safe enough to earn a living off of NPCs, that there's no need to target PCs unless there's a greater reason. I mean, don't get me wrong, as a thief you technically should be mixing it up a bit, but still, I think a good number of PC pickpocket attempts are meant to be personal.

I don't know if it's personal as much as realistic.  PCs tend to have waaaay nicer stuff than NPCs.  If you're very lucky, a random NPC will have a lousy dagger on his belt, maybe some coins, and a couple nicknacks courtesy of some kind builder who went the extra mile and put a five sid bracelet in its inventory.  Meanwhile, your average PC is carrying around dozens if not hundreds of coins, gear and weapons that sell in the hundreds, and a variety of other genuinely useful and/or imported items.  There's just no comparison!

That said, it's probably a good thing that you have to face the prospect of interacting with another PC when you're making the steals that count.

As for the idea of common steal echoes - I like it. Why shouldn't there be NPC pickpockets hanging around in areas like the Allanaki Bazaar? Tuluki Tribal Market? The main roads leading into and out of cities. Sure, a lot of them have echoes to the effect of "You feel someone pulling on your cloak" but those are instantly identified as just that - echoes. Especially if it's not the first time you've read them. They do not at all match with the echoes that we all know mean that a PC is stealing from us. And as such... they're usually just ignored. We don't take the time to respond to them everytime. If they matched the real PP echoes, we probably actually would. We would at least stop and type "eq".  It would make for a more realistic and immersive world, and would give the PC thieves of the game safer zones to operate in.

I was against this earlier (imagine how infuriating it would be if the game gave you random 'you are thirsty' messages), but perhaps if they were NPCs that people could beat the crap out of it wouldn't be so bad.  Urchins who try to steal things from people passing through dark alleys, and so forth.

[CodeMaster]

I briefly brought up the idea of an increase im armour wear and weapons shattering on the RAT, but it went unnoticed I do think it would really add to the game's economy

I noticed it yousuff.  I'd love it - should've chimed in.  I'd also love it it boots wore out from walking around in them.  Then elves would actually have a need to steal people's boots.

[Rokal]

I briefly brought up the idea of an increase im armour wear and weapons shattering on the RAT, but it went unnoticed I do think it would really add to the game's economy

I noticed it yousuff.  I'd love it - should've chimed in.  I'd also love it it boots wore out from walking around in them.  Then elves would actually have a need to steal people's boots.

Not to go entirely off topic.
I agree with this idea entirely- if things start to wear out, and requires repairs more often, instead of lasting so long, it'd create a much more flowing economy and a supply and demand. The only items I ever see wear out all that quick are shields. I've seen some chars go with the same spear for IC months, fighting with it despite it made of bone, and it not ever wearing out or growing dull! (Which I think should be a thing: comon weapon maintenance to keep weapons sharp!)

and I also can understand the ongoing conversation about how people react so violently? (for lack of a betterword) towards anything being stolen. Armageddon is not the only RP community i've been part of, oh no, I've been part of plenty.

And the same thing happens in them that it does in arm, from what i'm hearing here. You could steal a little nicknack worth very little from a PC and before you know it'd you would have many people on your PCs  tail trying to get it back/murderize you into a bloodsplat on the floor.

It's a issue that plagues RP on an online outlet in general.

That said, I'm entirely with jack on the idea of thieves and their actions, and the victims keeping such knowledge where it belongs - OOC. I sometimes feel like people take even the most of minor thievery actions as an OOC affront or insult more then an IC inconvenience, It IS sort of a skill to learn and practice to keep IC and ooc seperate, and it is harder for some and easier then others, thus items wearing out more often on one end, would have people put less value in their items.

I, think- in the end I think it just falls down onto the players to be good sports, when a pickpocket steals from you, and its a valuable item, or something of sentimental value, I like to think of it as being an -RP- opportunity instead of starting a whole vendetta; You could do a lot of things, ask around about if you saw anyone with the item in question, keep an eye out, maybe your PC has the listen skill? Listen about, eavesdrop. Some thieves might brag. RP about it, feel about it, think about it.  Maybe even visit NPC shop keepers, asking if they had anyone come by selling an item of such a nature, be involved, Involve others. And maybe ask "Is it worth it to kill off this thief? he/she pulled a fast one on me? Maybe If I catch them I can blackmail." Theres all sorts of possibilities! Make what you can of the situations that come to you. Thats what I think, anyway.

When a pickpocket or burglar, steals from you, it gives you something to -do-, and any roleplayer should love an opportunity like that!

That said, to make stealing more fun, it should be thought that it requires both sides, the victim and the thief to allow opportunities. Be it the thief doing hemotes or semotes while shadowing a mark, or while snatching the item, or even fleeing or hiding, or trying to deflect blame while in a very busy area like the markets after being caught! Make it interesting. Maybe if you fail a thieving attempt and someone notices, you RP falling over, trying to cover it up, do whatever.

The more involved the victim and the thief are, the more fun it is.  

[Patuk]

I think the wearing/breakage thing would have been implemented already if armor repair were to actually work decently. It uh, doesn't.

[Case]

Just give hooded PC's the sdescs of their hoods/facewraps/whatever upon being wayed. Problem solved.

I still like my idea of letting people choose their way desc. Or even just showing the description based on the keyword they used.


I think hide/sneak as a super invis is a bit janky. I don't mind it being good, but hide in plain sight bullshit is silly. And scan itself is silly. There are alternative models for hiding which could be implemented that reduce it being all or nothing for both sides.

[Patuk]

I'd not mind a stealth nerf/rework so much if the same happened to scan. It's a very low-effort way of rooting out sneakies.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Just give hooded PC's the sdescs of their hoods/facewraps/whatever upon being wayed. Problem solved.

I still like my idea of letting people choose their way desc. Or even just showing the description based on the keyword they used.

I'm not a fan of letting people simply choose a seperate way desc, because some players would choose a waydesc that looks nothing like their mdesc. Some. I believe this because I've seen more than a handful of players over the years who've written sdescs / mdescs which only share the word "the" and are in general ill-matched (or the sdesc is uselessly simple, like "the tall, dark-haired man.") Usually these same guys will get in game, give themselves a new name via addkeyword and completely for get the one they app'd under, then find a hood, raise it, and pop the "L,O,W,E, and R" keys from their keyboard.

Now, I'm not generally a fan of saying "because a small minority abuse it, we should take it away", but I just don't see any other use for this feature besides way sniffing. It would likely negatively effect honest transactions (who's that guy that was in the bar the other day trying to sell me that kank? I need to find his mind, I got the sids now!), more than dishonest ones.

[RogueGunslinger]

Eh? There's nothing stopping you from "contact hooded.figure".

I'm not really seeing the potential abuse there. The whole point is that the way sdesc is different from the main sdesc.

[Patuk]

What terribly important things do you need that people can't use pseudonyms? That describes 80% of the game's celves/rinthers.

[MeTekillot]

There are people who never tell tgeir true name because they think it gives them one over on magickers and psions

[Patuk]

I realise that. Who cares?

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Eh? There's nothing stopping you from "contact hooded.figure".

I'm not really seeing the potential abuse there. The whole point is that the way sdesc is different from the main sdesc.

Maybe I'm the one not getting it? Not sure if the "waydesc" was fleshed out elsewhere and I missed it, but my assumption is that waydesc != sdesc.  So, when I "contact hooded.figure" I see "You contact the muscular, blue-eyed man", but when I pass you on the street I see "the sinewy, sapphire-eyed man"?

If that's the correct assumption, then I posit that it's abusable. And apart from that, I honestly don't see the point in it. It would confuse your friends more than it would circumvent your enemies, and it serves no legitimate purpose.

[Delirium]

The more I've thought about the Way-desc issue, the more I think this solution works best:

You do not see who you have contacted UNTIL you send them a message. Their image does not "solidify" (reflecting the tenuous bond) until they contact you back.

This gets rid of the only major and consistent complaint regarding the current Way scenario: anonymous sdesc sniffing.

If you want to sniff someone, fine, but you'll have to give yourself away in the process.


>contact Malik
You contact someone's mind through the Way.

>psi Malik, that you?
You send a telepathic message to the wavering image of a stocky, clean-shaven man:
    "Malik, that you?"

> A foreign presence contacts your mind.

>The stocky, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
    "Hey, Amos."

>psi Oh hey buddy.
You send a telepathic message to the stocky, clean-shaven man:
    "Oh hey buddy."


(Malik sees, as would happen currently:

A foreign presence contacts your mind.

The tall, muscular man sends you a telepathic message:
    "Malik, that you?"

The only real change would be from the sniff-er's point of view.)

[chrisdcoulombe]

I would steal from you regardless of your way-desc...

[Is Friday]

So many mis psis to NPCs lol....

[Delirium]

Heh, I should have paid better attention to which thread I was responding to, but it was in regards to assassins/etc having a difficult time because people way-sniff their sdesc.

Mispsis are good. It's kind of the whole point - making the Way a bit more unreliable.

[Is Friday]

Yeah I think that'll get annoying for staff, though. Bwahaha.

[CodeMaster]

Regarding the Way, it would be cool if it worked a bit like "backtracing" phone lines does in police movies.  If you spend more than 5 to 10 seconds in contact with someone, the sdescs get resolved (maybe on both sides?); otherwise it's anonymous.

Back on topic, it would be cool if you could retaliate against thieves without them giving themselves away.

Say you get the message:

Code Select Expand


You feel someone's hands in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.


Once you get this message (or perhaps even immediately after a successful steal that you got no message about), a timer begins, counting to 5 seconds or something like that.  During this period, say, if you "hit thief", you get a chance to do some damage to the thief via something resembling the brawling code:

Code Select Expand


> hit thief
You strike out at someone, cuffing him solidly in the head. [-15 hp for the thief]
[thief remains unexposed]

> hit thief
Nobody recently tried to steal from you, that you're aware of.

You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.
> hit thief
> You strike out at someone, cuffing him solidly in the head.
The figure in a dark cloak stumbles to the ground.
[thief is exposed; maybe he tried again while he was injured from previous cuff]




[edit: some small modifications/variations on the above]

Code Select Expand


You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.

> hit thief
You strike out your thief, but he gets away.
You didn't get a good look at him, but caught a glimpse of a bone-studded cap.


You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.

> hit thief
You strike out your thief, cuffing him solidly in the head. [-50% stun?]
You didn't get a good look at him, but caught a glimpse of a dark cloak.


You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.

> hit thief
You strike out your thief, cuffing him solidly in the head.
The figure in a dark cloak stumbles to the ground. [precently stunned thief is exposed]


[MeTekillot]

Reintroduce trap and let me trap my worn containers to stab a dude with a poisoned needle.

[Qzzrbl]

bet if the ideas outlined http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,44616.msg721274.html#msg721274 and http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,34854.msg436225.html#msg436225 were implimented, combined with properly-done mdesc-hiding equipment, petty crime would become as common as it should be

probably more fun too

because you likely wouldnt have to have a massively skilled up character that you're afraid to lose because of time investment to give crime a try

[CodeMaster]

I like both ideas.  Poison needle traps to thwart pickpockets sounds downright brutal -- in a good way.  You'd really have to have your hate on for pickpockets.  Qzzrbl's idea would be awesome; but it seems like it would be a relatively large coding project if done server-side, with hooks everywhere in the code.  Client-side I think it would be relatively straight-forward, in most cases.

I thought some more about what I suggested earlier, and I think an even simpler system might be something like the following:

Code Select Expand


You feel a hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.
You catch a brief glimpse of the thief, who is wearing a bone-studded leather cap.

Your pouched belt feels lighter.
You catch a brief glimpse of the thief, who is wearing a dark, hooded cloak.


Just think about all the cool consequences:

Pickpockets would have a simple way to disguise themselves: if they know bits of their equipment are going to be revealed at random, they have a disincentive to wear fancy/unique items, and so better resemble a poor person (as they should).  They also have an incentive to switch what they're wearing every once in a while, to switch cloaks and hats and so on.

Repeat pickpocket attempts are implicitly discouraged, because they start to divulge more and more information to the victim.

Victims get a hint about who they should be watching out for.  So if they're in a room with five other people and one of them is stealing from them, they have a hope of being able to identify the (unhidden) pickpocket by using the 'look' command -- assuming the pickpocket isn't hidden.

[Riev]

Reintroduce trap and let me trap my worn containers to stab a dude with a poisoned needle.

Reintroduce trap and let me trap my worn containers

Reintroduce trap and let me trap

Reintroduce trap

[Jingo]

trap buried artifacts

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Reintroduce trap and let me trap my worn containers to stab a dude with a poisoned needle.

Reintroduce trap and let me trap my worn containers

Reintroduce trap and let me trap

Reintroduce trap

[Inks]

I really love CodeMaster's idea.

[Rokal]

I like both ideas.  Poison needle traps to thwart pickpockets sounds downright brutal -- in a good way.  You'd really have to have your hate on for pickpockets.  Qzzrbl's idea would be awesome; but it seems like it would be a relatively large coding project if done server-side, with hooks everywhere in the code.  Client-side I think it would be relatively straight-forward, in most cases.

I thought some more about what I suggested earlier, and I think an even simpler system might be something like the following:

Code Select Expand


You feel a hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.
You catch a brief glimpse of the thief, who is wearing a bone-studded leather cap.

Your pouched belt feels lighter.
You catch a brief glimpse of the thief, who is wearing a dark, hooded cloak.


Just think about all the cool consequences:

Pickpockets would have a simple way to disguise themselves: if they know bits of their equipment are going to be revealed at random, they have a disincentive to wear fancy/unique items, and so better resemble a poor person (as they should).  They also have an incentive to switch what they're wearing every once in a while, to switch cloaks and hats and so on.

Repeat pickpocket attempts are implicitly discouraged, because they start to divulge more and more information to the victim.

Victims get a hint about who they should be watching out for.  So if they're in a room with five other people and one of them is stealing from them, they have a hope of being able to identify the (unhidden) pickpocket by using the 'look' command -- assuming the pickpocket isn't hidden.

i totally support this.