How to make stealing more fun

[Kol]

Elves don't  RP.

FTFY

[chrisdcoulombe]

Wants to make an elf now.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I find myself agreeing with pretty much everything BadSkeelz has to say on this matter, so far.

Players have overwrought attachments to their items, but also their sense of entitlement for being treated "respectfully."

^ That is absolutely at the heart of this issue (and many, many others) to me. I think every character starts at a realistic spot on the social ladder - you're broke, you don't know anybody important, and your skills are basically worthless. You have an appropriate sense of pride, which is to say "none." Then something extraordinary happens about the time you get a couple skills to Journeyman, and have a working report with half a dozen characters - you become too important to roll with the everyday, mundane happenings of Zalanthas. If you're caught stealing a flimsy bone knife from a first day character, he might complain, but that's about it. If you get caught stealing the same knife from the same day five player, suddenly him and all his buddies will have a personal vendetta against you. They'll probably even warn complete strangers to tighten their belts every time you walk into the bar.

From the idealistic RP perspective, that's ridiculous. This is Zalanthas. It's a third world country full of destitute, hungry people with no social permeability, and almost no economic means. Theft is common. Crime is everyday. You're having your pocket picked right now.

From the realistic playability perspective, that's also why I disagree with your assertion that "stealing is not fun." It's right up there with PKilling for me. My heart is pounding, my hands are shaking. If someone walks into the room in the middle of it and asks me what I'm doing, I grunt unintelligibly and swat at them like Big Foot fielding questions on Larry King Live. This is a (probably somewhat) rare moment that can have huge, long-lasting effects to both you and the players around you. Sure, stealing from NPCs is routine, but from PCs, it's a rush. If it ain't, don't play a thief. 

I don't think the "stealth invisibility cloak" (play a fucking class with scan and shuddup) needs removed, because the field is stacked heavily enough against the thief to begin with. We've all seen it - an item goes missing, and all the PCs know exactly who it was. Regardless of whether the code says "Someone, you don't see who..." or whether it was a complete success and you only noticed it after the fact by typing "eq" when you saw someone's "... walks past you." emote. Hell, even if the thief snuck in, hid, succeeded on stealth, and snuck back out all without being seen by a single soul, most players will realize on an OOC level that it could only have been one of about a half dozen viable candidates in their play area. And I'm sorry, but because of the quote from BadSkeelz above, I simply don't trust the average player to keep that info where it belongs - OOC.

As noted before, most attempts to steal from PCs are meant personally to stick it to the character/player. It's easy and safe enough to earn a living off of NPCs, that there's no need to target PCs unless there's a greater reason. I mean, don't get me wrong, as a thief you technically should be mixing it up a bit, but still, I think a good number of PC pickpocket attempts are meant to be personal.

As for the idea of common steal echoes - I like it. Why shouldn't there be NPC pickpockets hanging around in areas like the Allanaki Bazaar? Tuluki Tribal Market? The main roads leading into and out of cities. Sure, a lot of them have echoes to the effect of "You feel someone pulling on your cloak" but those are instantly identified as just that - echoes. Especially if it's not the first time you've read them. They do not at all match with the echoes that we all know mean that a PC is stealing from us. And as such... they're usually just ignored. We don't take the time to respond to them everytime. If they matched the real PP echoes, we probably actually would. We would at least stop and type "eq".  It would make for a more realistic and immersive world, and would give the PC thieves of the game safer zones to operate in.

The psychological problems for why petty crime descends in to hack-and-slash are more difficult to address, but we can at least loosen the code so that more petty crime and counter-crime can exist. If crime was more common (or noticeable) and less of a big deal, people might react to it in a more reasoned manner.

I wonder if part of the problem might be that items in Zalanthas are both very expensive and also practically indestructible. People are used to buying all their sweet gear and then never needing to replace it. If armor and weapons wore out more, people would need to replace it more, Merchants wouldn't need to charge so much for it, and thievery would become part of a more natural attrition rate.

I love both of these ideas - may have to disqus on another thread to avoid derail.

[yousuff]

I briefly brought up the idea of an increase im armour wear and weapons shattering on the RAT, but it went unnoticed I do think it would really add to the game's economy

[CodeMaster]

Great post jack.

As noted before, most attempts to steal from PCs are meant personally to stick it to the character/player. It's easy and safe enough to earn a living off of NPCs, that there's no need to target PCs unless there's a greater reason. I mean, don't get me wrong, as a thief you technically should be mixing it up a bit, but still, I think a good number of PC pickpocket attempts are meant to be personal.

I don't know if it's personal as much as realistic.  PCs tend to have waaaay nicer stuff than NPCs.  If you're very lucky, a random NPC will have a lousy dagger on his belt, maybe some coins, and a couple nicknacks courtesy of some kind builder who went the extra mile and put a five sid bracelet in its inventory.  Meanwhile, your average PC is carrying around dozens if not hundreds of coins, gear and weapons that sell in the hundreds, and a variety of other genuinely useful and/or imported items.  There's just no comparison!

That said, it's probably a good thing that you have to face the prospect of interacting with another PC when you're making the steals that count.

As for the idea of common steal echoes - I like it. Why shouldn't there be NPC pickpockets hanging around in areas like the Allanaki Bazaar? Tuluki Tribal Market? The main roads leading into and out of cities. Sure, a lot of them have echoes to the effect of "You feel someone pulling on your cloak" but those are instantly identified as just that - echoes. Especially if it's not the first time you've read them. They do not at all match with the echoes that we all know mean that a PC is stealing from us. And as such... they're usually just ignored. We don't take the time to respond to them everytime. If they matched the real PP echoes, we probably actually would. We would at least stop and type "eq".  It would make for a more realistic and immersive world, and would give the PC thieves of the game safer zones to operate in.

I was against this earlier (imagine how infuriating it would be if the game gave you random 'you are thirsty' messages), but perhaps if they were NPCs that people could beat the crap out of it wouldn't be so bad.  Urchins who try to steal things from people passing through dark alleys, and so forth.

[CodeMaster]

I briefly brought up the idea of an increase im armour wear and weapons shattering on the RAT, but it went unnoticed I do think it would really add to the game's economy

I noticed it yousuff.  I'd love it - should've chimed in.  I'd also love it it boots wore out from walking around in them.  Then elves would actually have a need to steal people's boots.

[Rokal]

I briefly brought up the idea of an increase im armour wear and weapons shattering on the RAT, but it went unnoticed I do think it would really add to the game's economy

I noticed it yousuff.  I'd love it - should've chimed in.  I'd also love it it boots wore out from walking around in them.  Then elves would actually have a need to steal people's boots.

Not to go entirely off topic.
I agree with this idea entirely- if things start to wear out, and requires repairs more often, instead of lasting so long, it'd create a much more flowing economy and a supply and demand. The only items I ever see wear out all that quick are shields. I've seen some chars go with the same spear for IC months, fighting with it despite it made of bone, and it not ever wearing out or growing dull! (Which I think should be a thing: comon weapon maintenance to keep weapons sharp!)

and I also can understand the ongoing conversation about how people react so violently? (for lack of a betterword) towards anything being stolen. Armageddon is not the only RP community i've been part of, oh no, I've been part of plenty.

And the same thing happens in them that it does in arm, from what i'm hearing here. You could steal a little nicknack worth very little from a PC and before you know it'd you would have many people on your PCs  tail trying to get it back/murderize you into a bloodsplat on the floor.

It's a issue that plagues RP on an online outlet in general.

That said, I'm entirely with jack on the idea of thieves and their actions, and the victims keeping such knowledge where it belongs - OOC. I sometimes feel like people take even the most of minor thievery actions as an OOC affront or insult more then an IC inconvenience, It IS sort of a skill to learn and practice to keep IC and ooc seperate, and it is harder for some and easier then others, thus items wearing out more often on one end, would have people put less value in their items.

I, think- in the end I think it just falls down onto the players to be good sports, when a pickpocket steals from you, and its a valuable item, or something of sentimental value, I like to think of it as being an -RP- opportunity instead of starting a whole vendetta; You could do a lot of things, ask around about if you saw anyone with the item in question, keep an eye out, maybe your PC has the listen skill? Listen about, eavesdrop. Some thieves might brag. RP about it, feel about it, think about it.  Maybe even visit NPC shop keepers, asking if they had anyone come by selling an item of such a nature, be involved, Involve others. And maybe ask "Is it worth it to kill off this thief? he/she pulled a fast one on me? Maybe If I catch them I can blackmail." Theres all sorts of possibilities! Make what you can of the situations that come to you. Thats what I think, anyway.

When a pickpocket or burglar, steals from you, it gives you something to -do-, and any roleplayer should love an opportunity like that!

That said, to make stealing more fun, it should be thought that it requires both sides, the victim and the thief to allow opportunities. Be it the thief doing hemotes or semotes while shadowing a mark, or while snatching the item, or even fleeing or hiding, or trying to deflect blame while in a very busy area like the markets after being caught! Make it interesting. Maybe if you fail a thieving attempt and someone notices, you RP falling over, trying to cover it up, do whatever.

The more involved the victim and the thief are, the more fun it is.  

[Patuk]

I think the wearing/breakage thing would have been implemented already if armor repair were to actually work decently. It uh, doesn't.

[Case]

Just give hooded PC's the sdescs of their hoods/facewraps/whatever upon being wayed. Problem solved.

I still like my idea of letting people choose their way desc. Or even just showing the description based on the keyword they used.


I think hide/sneak as a super invis is a bit janky. I don't mind it being good, but hide in plain sight bullshit is silly. And scan itself is silly. There are alternative models for hiding which could be implemented that reduce it being all or nothing for both sides.

[Patuk]

I'd not mind a stealth nerf/rework so much if the same happened to scan. It's a very low-effort way of rooting out sneakies.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Just give hooded PC's the sdescs of their hoods/facewraps/whatever upon being wayed. Problem solved.

I still like my idea of letting people choose their way desc. Or even just showing the description based on the keyword they used.

I'm not a fan of letting people simply choose a seperate way desc, because some players would choose a waydesc that looks nothing like their mdesc. Some. I believe this because I've seen more than a handful of players over the years who've written sdescs / mdescs which only share the word "the" and are in general ill-matched (or the sdesc is uselessly simple, like "the tall, dark-haired man.") Usually these same guys will get in game, give themselves a new name via addkeyword and completely for get the one they app'd under, then find a hood, raise it, and pop the "L,O,W,E, and R" keys from their keyboard.

Now, I'm not generally a fan of saying "because a small minority abuse it, we should take it away", but I just don't see any other use for this feature besides way sniffing. It would likely negatively effect honest transactions (who's that guy that was in the bar the other day trying to sell me that kank? I need to find his mind, I got the sids now!), more than dishonest ones.

[RogueGunslinger]

Eh? There's nothing stopping you from "contact hooded.figure".

I'm not really seeing the potential abuse there. The whole point is that the way sdesc is different from the main sdesc.

[Patuk]

What terribly important things do you need that people can't use pseudonyms? That describes 80% of the game's celves/rinthers.

[MeTekillot]

There are people who never tell tgeir true name because they think it gives them one over on magickers and psions

[Patuk]

I realise that. Who cares?

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Eh? There's nothing stopping you from "contact hooded.figure".

I'm not really seeing the potential abuse there. The whole point is that the way sdesc is different from the main sdesc.

Maybe I'm the one not getting it? Not sure if the "waydesc" was fleshed out elsewhere and I missed it, but my assumption is that waydesc != sdesc.  So, when I "contact hooded.figure" I see "You contact the muscular, blue-eyed man", but when I pass you on the street I see "the sinewy, sapphire-eyed man"?

If that's the correct assumption, then I posit that it's abusable. And apart from that, I honestly don't see the point in it. It would confuse your friends more than it would circumvent your enemies, and it serves no legitimate purpose.

[Delirium]

The more I've thought about the Way-desc issue, the more I think this solution works best:

You do not see who you have contacted UNTIL you send them a message. Their image does not "solidify" (reflecting the tenuous bond) until they contact you back.

This gets rid of the only major and consistent complaint regarding the current Way scenario: anonymous sdesc sniffing.

If you want to sniff someone, fine, but you'll have to give yourself away in the process.


>contact Malik
You contact someone's mind through the Way.

>psi Malik, that you?
You send a telepathic message to the wavering image of a stocky, clean-shaven man:
    "Malik, that you?"

> A foreign presence contacts your mind.

>The stocky, clean-shaven man sends you a telepathic message:
    "Hey, Amos."

>psi Oh hey buddy.
You send a telepathic message to the stocky, clean-shaven man:
    "Oh hey buddy."


(Malik sees, as would happen currently:

A foreign presence contacts your mind.

The tall, muscular man sends you a telepathic message:
    "Malik, that you?"

The only real change would be from the sniff-er's point of view.)

[chrisdcoulombe]

I would steal from you regardless of your way-desc...

[Is Friday]

So many mis psis to NPCs lol....

[Delirium]

Heh, I should have paid better attention to which thread I was responding to, but it was in regards to assassins/etc having a difficult time because people way-sniff their sdesc.

Mispsis are good. It's kind of the whole point - making the Way a bit more unreliable.

[Is Friday]

Yeah I think that'll get annoying for staff, though. Bwahaha.

[CodeMaster]

Regarding the Way, it would be cool if it worked a bit like "backtracing" phone lines does in police movies.  If you spend more than 5 to 10 seconds in contact with someone, the sdescs get resolved (maybe on both sides?); otherwise it's anonymous.

Back on topic, it would be cool if you could retaliate against thieves without them giving themselves away.

Say you get the message:

Code Select Expand


You feel someone's hands in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.


Once you get this message (or perhaps even immediately after a successful steal that you got no message about), a timer begins, counting to 5 seconds or something like that.  During this period, say, if you "hit thief", you get a chance to do some damage to the thief via something resembling the brawling code:

Code Select Expand


> hit thief
You strike out at someone, cuffing him solidly in the head. [-15 hp for the thief]
[thief remains unexposed]

> hit thief
Nobody recently tried to steal from you, that you're aware of.

You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.
> hit thief
> You strike out at someone, cuffing him solidly in the head.
The figure in a dark cloak stumbles to the ground.
[thief is exposed; maybe he tried again while he was injured from previous cuff]




[edit: some small modifications/variations on the above]

Code Select Expand


You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.

> hit thief
You strike out your thief, but he gets away.
You didn't get a good look at him, but caught a glimpse of a bone-studded cap.


You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.

> hit thief
You strike out your thief, cuffing him solidly in the head. [-50% stun?]
You didn't get a good look at him, but caught a glimpse of a dark cloak.


You feel someone's hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.

> hit thief
You strike out your thief, cuffing him solidly in the head.
The figure in a dark cloak stumbles to the ground. [precently stunned thief is exposed]


[MeTekillot]

Reintroduce trap and let me trap my worn containers to stab a dude with a poisoned needle.

[Qzzrbl]

bet if the ideas outlined http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,44616.msg721274.html#msg721274 and http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,34854.msg436225.html#msg436225 were implimented, combined with properly-done mdesc-hiding equipment, petty crime would become as common as it should be

probably more fun too

because you likely wouldnt have to have a massively skilled up character that you're afraid to lose because of time investment to give crime a try

[CodeMaster]

I like both ideas.  Poison needle traps to thwart pickpockets sounds downright brutal -- in a good way.  You'd really have to have your hate on for pickpockets.  Qzzrbl's idea would be awesome; but it seems like it would be a relatively large coding project if done server-side, with hooks everywhere in the code.  Client-side I think it would be relatively straight-forward, in most cases.

I thought some more about what I suggested earlier, and I think an even simpler system might be something like the following:

Code Select Expand


You feel a hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit.
You catch a brief glimpse of the thief, who is wearing a bone-studded leather cap.

Your pouched belt feels lighter.
You catch a brief glimpse of the thief, who is wearing a dark, hooded cloak.


Just think about all the cool consequences:

Pickpockets would have a simple way to disguise themselves: if they know bits of their equipment are going to be revealed at random, they have a disincentive to wear fancy/unique items, and so better resemble a poor person (as they should).  They also have an incentive to switch what they're wearing every once in a while, to switch cloaks and hats and so on.

Repeat pickpocket attempts are implicitly discouraged, because they start to divulge more and more information to the victim.

Victims get a hint about who they should be watching out for.  So if they're in a room with five other people and one of them is stealing from them, they have a hope of being able to identify the (unhidden) pickpocket by using the 'look' command -- assuming the pickpocket isn't hidden.