How to make stealing more fun

[Patuk]

I think weapons breaking would be a good start. Bone and obsidian weaponry would break all the time, and even wood would crack after regular use.

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not really seeing hit.

[BadSkeelz]

People don't care as much when inexpensive or more readily replaceable things are stolen. Heck, a lot of the time they might not even notice. When valuable items are stolen, people tend to take it more personally. Part of it is because the time you invested in getting the sid, getting the item (possibly having to go through PCs over RL days and weeks), has just now essentially become wasted. What I'm proposing is that we make items in the game more disposable, so people don't freak out so much at the thought of replacement, or feel so violated when the items are suddenly taken from them. Our characters should treat items like we treat our characters: cherished, protected, but also resigned to the loss and replacement thereof.

Right now you can go through an entire character's life using only a single weapon. Weapons breaking in combat are the exception, not the rule. Someone who "knows" this can reasonably expect to be using that weapon forever... so when that weapon is suddenly stolen, it's a much bigger sense of loss and outrage. It's ratcheted up from "Damn, I hope I can get that sick sword back and also tweak the nose of the thief who stole it, but I better move on to a replacement" to "They have stolen my cherished 800 sid heirloom sword THEY SHALL PAY WITH THEIR LIVES."

This doesn't mean I think the burglar who steals your 2700 'sid couch out of your apartment just because he can is doing it right, either.

[nauta]

I'm not really seeing hit.

Assuming 'hit' means 'it', me neither.  

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

[Inks]

I love Skeelz's idea about weapon/ item breakage.

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe after storing characters with entire sets of rare, powerful gear multiple times I've just come to already not see items as valuable. I do see your point though, Badskeelz. I'm just not a fan of item degradation in any game.

[CodeMaster]

I'm not really seeing hit.

Assuming 'hit' means 'it', me neither.  

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

Just to recap and re-rail us: I like the idea about echoes, but I think it would end up being an OOC drag for players more than adding fun to the game.  Imagine if the game randomly gave you false "you are thirsty" messages -- it would be enraging!

But that's my opinion, and I have to say I genuinely agree with the idea of making stealing more engaging for both parties.  So I'll spitball a bit more:

Regarding (a): couldn't you just emote (perhaps even while hidden, so not a hemote or even semote) that you tugged on your target's cuff or something as you passed him/her through the crowd?

Also note that if the stolen item is heavy enough, and the victim has his/her encumbrance in his/her prompt, the game is going to tell him/her something's up.

However, I DO agree it would be cool from a gameplay perspective if you got some kind of (cryptic!) indication that someone stole from you.  Maybe the victim could lose a single stun point when it happens to indicate that someone successfully distracted you.  Hard to notice, and it shouldn't knock the victim out () but definitely tangible.


Regarding (b), there are numerous complementary skills that will enable you to steal unnoticed and unseen.  I won't go into the specifics, but a master pickpocket is exactly that, and there comes a point in each master pickpocket's career at which he is basically letting people keep their belongings out of charity.

[whitt]

None of the above addresses the two responses to being the victim of a theft:
a) I don't care.
b) I will hunt you to the ends of the Known for daring to steal from me.

... open up a non-lethal avenue for RP between thief and victim, if you want to make stealing more fun.  Right now it's

A) Boring
or
B) Fatal
for the thief.

and
A) An ignorable distraction
or
B) An unwanted hassle
for the victim.

That's the dynamic that needs to change - it's not the skills or the items involved or the economy.  It becomes more fun when the action actually opens doors to more RP options for all parties involved.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't know what thieves you've been playing, but stealing from a PC has never really be boring for me. Then again I've never had master-steal. I usually start sweating and get the shakes, which is funny because combat doesn't really do it for me.

[CodeMaster]

... open up a non-lethal avenue for RP between thief and victim, if you want to make stealing more fun.  Right now it's

A) Boring
or
B) Fatal
for the thief.

I have to agree with RogueGunslinger that I was never bored when I was doing the pthief thing.  But just in case you do get bored, there's lots of roleplay activities that'll make the act more exciting:

- Brag about it to one of your friends, turn it into a fun story to tell over the campfire
- Ransom the item to its original owner, maybe by proxy
- Buy favor by giving the item to another PC and letting him/her be the one to return it
- Plant the item at the scene of a murder

But I agree with you that it sucks if it has to be fatal to the thief.

Honestly, if I knew who the master pickpocket who stole from me was, I would bend over backwards to get him on my payroll.    My enemies wouldn't know a moment of peace.

and
A) An ignorable distraction
or
B) An unwanted hassle
for the victim.

That's the dynamic that needs to change - it's not the skills or the items involved or the economy.  It becomes more fun when the action actually opens doors to more RP options for all parties involved.

Fair enough, and I agree with this point.  Being pthiefed from probably isn't going to be an awesome experience for the victim, but neither are murder and betrayal -- the hope is that the whole affair ends up stitching itself into a wider storyline, and I think the responsibility is ours (the players') to strive to use these skills to this end.

[chrisdcoulombe]

There are alot of ways to steal, Try a con.  Start with an easy one. 

Npcs are generally pretty easy to get away from imo, and if you do get caught, just go to jail.

"A simple trick dating back hundreds of years, the Pig in a Poke involves selling an item on the street, but switching the container so the buyer ends up with nothing. Originally, this involved convincing the gullible customer that a bag contained a delicious pig, when it actually contained a worthless cat. Though it seems archaic, versions of this trick are still practiced today. The street seller shows the mark their product, but exchanges the package after the sale is made."

From http://brainz.org/10-most-devious-street-cons-and-how-avoid-them/

Look up others.  There are a million of them and there is always someone who will go along with it even if they know what is going on for the sake of role play.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the thread was meant for the coded steal skill.

[Fujikoma]

I think a disguise skill for sneakies would be GREAT, items like a false mustache could grant bonuses (silly as it would be, I think it would be hillarious), with a chance to see through it with high-level watch or scan, except at master level disguise. Could set a command like ddesc, which would be seen instead of your mdesc, and something like sddesc to overwrite your sdesc...

However, this would likely still be vulnerable to way-sniffing and keywords... hmmm, probably too complicated but fun to think about.

[Patuk]

Just give hooded PC's the sdescs of their hoods/facewraps/whatever upon being wayed. Problem solved.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I think the thread was meant for the coded steal skill.

Oh I thought it was How to Make Stealing More Fun. 

[RogueGunslinger]

I could see how one would think that had they not read the thread, but the OP talks about the steal skill explicitly. And they also came back and said this:

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

Don't get me wrong, your post is great advice for thief types, especially for elves. Scamming can be tons of fun.

[Chettaman]

Might I steal a suggestion already given?

You're sitting at the bar. No one comes in. No one leaves. You've been there for ten minutes. When suddenly...
"You notice your pockets are lighter."  || when this message comes up you can OOCly think, "Dammit." you can ICly think "DAMMIT!", check all your pockets and scramble to find any suspicious people.

You're sitting at the bar. No one comes in. No one leaves. You've been there for... - just a moment
"You notice the dood with hair's hand in your pocket!" || when this message comes up, another message is prompted...
"incriminate the dood with hair? Yes or no?" or maybe the character being stolen from is just able to use the incriminate command. -- anyway. After you type "yes" your character will automatically shout "Thief!" like an npc and the other guy will be incriminated. In the case of "no" nothing will happen. In this time, the thief can run or you know... stay. In this light, there would be a delay to the thief in a failed steal.

____
I also want to say hide does echo. Sneak also echoes. Use watch. Use listen. Use scan. Pick guilds to beat sneak-thieves if you don't like them.
____

Now for the rp aspect. Doods. Dooddettes. You're already taking a huge chance when you use the steal command. Just emote bumping into someone. Point at something that's not really there and then use the command when they emote looking that way. throw ale in their face, dust in their eyes, work with a partner. Who cares if someone uses OOC knowledge? What are they gonna do if you're successful? Get angry at you? Plot against you for life? What are they gonna do if they catch you? Know how to react when you failed? Want you dead or in jail? The guards want that since you failed too. Just emote, doods.

Of course being stolen from is annoying. The point is someone used you to gain something. Of course it's annoying.
No one noticed you stole from them? Someone /did/ notice their items were gone, but didn't care? That's like getting mad at someone for not finding you attractive. Why not, (while staying in line with your character) do something like follow them home and take more of that person's items specifically - since they didn't care so much. Why not have your character /really/ take offense to that?
I guess, though, if you're bored OOCly it's up to you.

[chrisdcoulombe]

I could see how one would think that had they not read the thread, but the OP talks about the steal skill explicitly. And they also came back and said this:

My original concern was that stealing is a bit boring, and that was because

(A) if you succeed nobody notices and

(B) if you fail PCs use OOC knowledge to figure out who it was that attempted the five fingering (namely: the only other PC in the room with them, even in a crowded bar) - it follows from the latter that PCs then do that very funny witch-hunt thing, which I don't think is that bad for other reasons (namely, because crazy witchhunters might discover that purported petty thief is actually a very important well connected individual).

I was trying to kill two birds with the suggestion that we have echoes that emulate the echoes one gets from a fail steal, thus causing people (A) to -notice- and (B)  also somewhat lessoning the instant acquisition of OOC knowledge about who the thief might have been (if they happen to fail), since at present if you fail a steal attempt and you are the only other PC at the Gaj, guess who knows who tried to steal from you?  That other PC, that's who.

Don't get me wrong, your post is great advice for thief types, especially for elves. Scamming can be tons of fun.

Yeah I read that,  I just don't think the code is gonna get changed, but there are alot of things to make stealing fun.  Some of my favorite characters were criminals.  Robbed a Mul as an elf once.  Through intimidation, I am surprised the character didn't die right then. 

[CodeMaster]

Might I steal a suggestion already given?

You're sitting at the bar. No one comes in. No one leaves. You've been there for ten minutes. When suddenly...
"You notice your pockets are lighter."  || when this message comes up you can OOCly think, "Dammit." you can ICly think "DAMMIT!", check all your pockets and scramble to find any suspicious people.

Interesting thought, but is this really any different than "you feel a hand in your belongings, but are unable to catch the culprit?"  [I guess it would be a message that you get when someone succeeds a steal on you, but what kind of success is that? ] Note you can put your encumbrance in your prompt if you want to pay extra close attention to it.  It won't help you catch everything, but could help you catch something.

Just emote bumping into someone. Point at something that's not really there and then use the command when they emote looking that way. throw ale in their face, dust in their eyes, work with a partner.

I recommend checking out some youtube videos of pickpockets in action - it can be illuminating.  Pickpockets don't draw attention to themselves by throwing ale or dust in people's faces or playing "made you look".  They operate in crowded, noisy places and prey on distracted people.

But working with a partner is a great idea and is also very realistic - good suggestion.  If you can get your mark's attention on your partner (or anyone else for that matter) then stealing is going to be a heck of a lot easier.  I believe this is reflected in the code, as per hints you see in threads about the 'watch' skill.

Who cares if someone uses OOC knowledge?

I do.  We can do better than that.

[Fujikoma]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

[chrisdcoulombe]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

Punishment isn't death.  Make a few throw aways and figure it out.  Nosave arrest is the command you need to play with.  Good luck.

[Fujikoma]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

Punishment isn't death.  Make a few throw aways and figure it out.  Nosave arrest is the command you need to play with.  Good luck.

... try playing a Nakki elf. Perhaps this will change in the future. I've found out IC from watching others find out IC. Fart wrong and the punishment is death, or at least missing a hand.

[Chettaman]

xD Don't worry, Code master. I was (mostly) joking about throwing dirt in people faces.
Fact: People get rings and watches stolen during hand shakes. Necklaces during hugs.

But don't rule out "the ole made you look"... it's the oldest trick in the book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUpbS92WrLQ

_____
Fear not punishment ooc or ic!
Play your characters and get ready to die.
You took the time to imagine this character and everything they would do.
Take a deep breath and do it.

[chrisdcoulombe]

If the punishment for being caught stealing is death, why not just murder the victim instead and either pick the corpse clean or get some buddies to do it for you? I mean, it's safer that way, and doesn't unnecessarily risk losing a character you've invested lots of time in.

Punishment isn't death.  Make a few throw aways and figure it out.  Nosave arrest is the command you need to play with.  Good luck.

... try playing a Nakki elf. Perhaps this will change in the future. I've found out IC from watching others find out IC. Fart wrong and the punishment is death, or at least missing a hand.

IDK what you are talking about.  Maybe the current Templars are jerks.  I can tell you how all my nakki c-elves, with max steal, that went to jail multiple times died.  Never lost a hand.   Try cutting deals.  Lie, cheat, steal and play a criminal.  If you sit back and let a Templar take your hand, so be it.  One less hand is an rp tool. 

Tell Templar (groveling on the dirty floor of the jail cell)  Don't take my hand, please Lord Templar Trouteater,  I have information for you, I am just so hungry...Please some rat tail soup.  I will tell you whatever you want to know.

[BadSkeelz]

Elves don't deserve RP.