How to make stealing more fun

[nauta]

So, stealing is kind of boring, for both parties. 

First, for the thief: stealing is super risky even with max steal, because on a fail, even a partial fail, everyone will OOCly know it was -you- even if the echo says it was someone ruffling with your jewels or whatever.

Second, for the thieved, since successful steals don't give any echo, often people don't know if they were stolen from for quite a while, and by the time they do, they aren't sure if it was a thief or just a misplacement. (I've quite a few cases where I've stolen from someone and then lurked, and, first, it took weeks for them to notice it was missing, and then they were like: meh, whatever, musta misplaced it.  My poor thief was heartbroken.)

I think the solution is to implement random NPC/VNPC steal attempts, which will almost always fail (but give echoes). It solves the first problem, because then you won't know if it was a random NPC/VNPC steal attempt or that other PC in the room with you.  It solves the second problem, because such echoes would have you check your inventory / stealable locations more often.

[Fujikoma]

Did you steal from me or something?

Best way to grief thieves: Ah well, wasn't that important anyway.

[Narf]

Actually, having "failed steal" messages as a rare echo for certain rooms rather than actual VNPC steal attempts might do the trick and be easier to code (as in there wouldn't be any coding involved).

Be a little weird that everyone in the room gets the same echo at the same time though, but I can imagine selected echos might make the coding more difficult.

[whitt]

Oh I was hoping this would go in the other direction...

1- nerf Sneak so it's not as good as invisibility
2- de-criminalize subduing anyone that fails at a steal check for some period of time
3- pummel speed walkers who are back to safety twenty rooms away before the PCs present can even parse that someone failed at stealing and type a response.

[Patuk]

Oh, poor you, you once had twelve sid stolen off you. Armageddon's criminal element is woefully difficult to play already.

- Due to the number of PC's generally being quite small and people playing multiple PC's, it's really hard to be a scammer, con artist, swindler or snake oil salesman. As soon as you're exposed, word is gonna spread.
- Zealous soldiers are zealous. Stick a hand in someone's cloak in the Gaj? Instasoldierganksquad. Try to bash someone's face in outside a tavern? SUFFER THE HIGHLORD'S FURY
- Stealth outside the realm of coded invisibility is not very useful. Even if you're gonna fail and show an echo once every ten steps, shadowing becomes an impossibility.
- People running off after they were noticed by everyone and their mother after an attempted theft? PREPOSTEROUS

[BadSkeelz]

Nerf stealth invisibility cloak. Nerf the Seal Team 6 Militia Tactical Response Units who zipline down from the rooftops to own your ass for anything against the crimcode (Alternatively, make it so this only happens to things like sorcerers). Allow citizen subdues. And most importantly, players on both sides need to be more responsible.

Thief PCs get ganked by players so much because they're played in an annoying fashion and can't be countered by the vast majority of PCs. Thieves need to show some moderation in what, where, and how they steal items; the rest of us need to be more moderate in our responses. No thousand-sid bounties for stolen goods worth a quarter of that. When that kind of coin gets thrown around, the Templarates should start asking WHERE all that coin is coming from. Unless the thief is one of those annoying "Rah rah fight the powah" types, they don't need to be thrown in to the arena. Well, maybe they do, but they don't need to be put up against Bonesaw the MachoMul. Let them get out with a good ass kicking. And thieves (and other criminals), when you're released by the templarate, don't go on some idiotic revenge power trip against Authority. All this does is make it all the more likely the next thief who gets caught is going to get ganked.

[Asanadas]

Giving hide a five second, obvious tell delay,

"The tall, muscular man attempts to hide from sight!"

Would be nice. It's been very jarring to find someone was there and then they activated the cloak field and completely vanished.

As far as making stealing more fun: don't steal important things, and it won't be deemed very important. Steal something important to a person, and expect retaliation of some degree.

[HavokBlue]

When someone vanishes from sight with Hide I usually just imagine them pulling a Batman.

When gith vanish from sight...

[BadSkeelz]

I've always appreciated those who actually throw in an emote justifying their disappearance, more so than the Batdwarfs of the game.

[RogueGunslinger]

Emoting you're about to hide is problematic. It's like saying "Hey, don't let me do this." I prefer Hemotes.

I like the idea of hide giving off an automatic hemote though. That would be perfect.

[nauta]

I agree with badskeelz that both sides need to RP things in proportion, but that's awfully hard to do, for both sides.  The thief could toss out an emote that someone had bumped the victim, and so risk the outrageously OOC retaliation.   The thieved could try to resist acting on the OOC knowledge they have that, roughly, if stolen from, must be PC.

Frankly, I think this has a negative effect on the thief: I know that I rarely have any desire to actually steal something since the reward is vastly outweighed by the risk (even if I have max hide/sneak/steal).  You can't sell the stuff, or brag about it, and honestly with the economy as it is, there's no reason to steal, even for a rinther.

By introducing more NPC/VNPC echos (or even universal echoes as suggested above), we'd at least move in a direction toward making the identification of the thief less obvious.

[whitt]

Nerf stealth invisibility cloak. Nerf the Seal Team 6 Militia Tactical Response Units who zipline down from the rooftops to own your ass for anything against the crimcode (Alternatively, make it so this only happens to things like sorcerers). Allow citizen subdues. And most importantly, players on both sides need to be more responsible.

Thief PCs get ganked by players so much because they're played in an annoying fashion and can't be countered by the vast majority of PCs.

QFT.

Frankly, I think this has a negative effect on the thief: I know that I rarely have any desire to actually steal something since the reward is vastly outweighed by the risk (even if I have max hide/sneak/steal).  You can't sell the stuff, or brag about it, and honestly with the economy as it is, there's no reason to steal, even for a rinther.

By introducing more NPC/VNPC echos (or even universal echoes as suggested above), we'd at least move in a direction toward making the identification of the thief less obvious.

NPC/VNPC echoes won't change the lack of need to steal because... rich.  Nor is anything you steal going to become any more valuable because of echoes.  Nor will it dial down the desire to PWN the thief you did catch...

...because, at the end of the day, this boils down to if a PC thief is stealing from a PC victim, they're doing it to get one over on the player of that PC and folks tend to respond irrationally to that.

[Inks]

Let the code sort it out. The crime code response is so rapid that I never begrudge folks using the code to escape.

What Patuk said, basically. Also it's just digital possessions on an OOC level but some players just act outrageous. Some are very good but unless you are bored of your character then it can be hard to take that risk.

I think seeing a PC thief stealing from you because he is trying to get one over you entirely the wrong attitude. Play your PCs the way you want.

Sometimes I feel the people really bashing on stealthies are the ones who barely ever play them. For instance, warrior bash is like running up to someone at the speed of light and bowling them over, yet I never feel like it is an abuse of the code when it happens without someone emoting charging at the PC.

Code I would like implemented is a "You notice X is missing" with a time based on wisdom for the victim.

[whitt]

I think seeing a PC thief stealing from you because he is trying to get one over you entirely the wrong attitude. Play your PCs the way you want.

Are they doing it to set up a scene?

Enhance the victim's RP experience?

Add to the atmosphere that stuff just gets stolen?

How do they react when things are stolen from them?

I'm going to guesstimate, in 80% of the cases, the reason is because stealing from NPCs is too easy and offers no thrill of what happens if they get caught.

Sometimes I feel the people really bashing on stealthies are the ones who barely ever play them. For instance, warrior bash is like running up to someone at the speed of light and bowling them over, yet I never feel like it is an abuse of the code when it happens without someone emoting charging at the PC.

Can't disappear in front of a crowds eyes and walk around like the invisible man with any other skill.  Even magic has a -very- noticeable effect before and as it happens and can be detected 100% of the time with certain counters.  That's the problem I see with it, regardless of it I use it or not.

[Patuk]

Magic also actually works 100% of the time people notice it.

Stealth getting noticed means it's an intrinsic failure. It's a dumb comparation to make. A krathi getting noticed in slinging his fireballs loses much less than a spy missing a hide check.

[whitt]

Magic also actually works 100% of the time people notice it.

Stealth getting noticed means it's an intrinsic failure. It's a dumb comparation to make. A krathi getting noticed in slinging his fireballs loses much less than a spy missing a hide check.

Ok, so what would you say *is* a fair comparison to Sneak?  Which allows you to vanish from in front of a room full of people with no echo to anyone? Magick might be the only even close comparison.  And to your point, it's not close.  Sneak is that much better.

Want to make Stealing more fun?  Give both parties a way to react to it.

[nauta]

Can't disappear in front of a crowds eyes and walk around like the invisible man with any other skill.  Even magic has a -very- noticeable effect before and as it happens and can be detected 100% of the time with certain counters.  That's the problem I see with it, regardless of it I use it or not.

I'm not sure on the statistics or whatever, but here's something to keep in mind:

There's a huge risk involved in hiding and shadowing someone.  If you shadow them somewhere and you get revealed, you are pretty screwed.  Nothing worse than shadowing someone, going off for a coffee, and coming back inside their LOCKED apartment or barracks, oops, heh.  Sneaks often will, as a result, scope out their victims and ensure that the victim's "eyesight" isn't that good, but even so, there's always a chance you will fail, and I've had it happen in some rather precarious situations, even maxed out.  (I believe hide "wears out" over time, although, again, no real way to tell.) I do know that when I'm shadowing someone, even maxed out, I'm on the edge of my seat most of the time, in fear they will discover me.

tl; dr: I think the hide code is pretty ok.

I do agree that some places should be flagged NOHIDE (smallish apartments, well lit hallways), but I try my best to always think "I'm hiding here - what does that mean" and semote something and change ldesc.  Often with shadow you don't have time, and are along for the ride, even if it is over the shield wall or into the maws of the pitchcloaks.

I agree that the idea here is to brainstorm a way to make stealing more fun.  As it stands it's kind of a worthless skill that doesn't really have neat RP opportunities.  At least with SAP and BACKSTAB you have the failure and delay and then that awkward: um, why you do that? moment.

[Fujikoma]

Hide code is fine. Magickers get a lot of things sneakies don't, along with faster development. Comparing magickers and pickpockets is like comparing ginkas to kzul, and therefor I fail to see your argument, Whitt.

An expert thief has spent their entire life learning to soundlessly slip into a crowd with any number of possible distractions, vanishing, for all practical purposes.

[BadSkeelz]

An expert thief has spent their entire life learning to soundlessly slip into a crowd with any number of possible distractions, vanishing, for all practical purposes.

All the more reason to gank 'em while they're young.

I'll post a more reasoned response when I get home. Maybe. GDB's not very interesting when I'm at home among my other toys.

[CodeMaster]

Nauta - the way you describe steal makes me think it's perfect!  The high risk factor associated with stealing from PCs makes it anything but boring to me (it's such a nailbiter).  And the fact that your past victims didn't notice until later is completely realistic.

Actually, having "failed steal" messages as a rare echo for certain rooms rather than actual VNPC steal attempts might do the trick

Some version of this already exists in the Allanaki bazaar, where you occasionally get echoes about your cloak being tugged on, etc.  Some other places occasionally give echoes about elves bumping past you.

It would be interesting to make these types of messages indistinguishable from the coded steal-fail messages, rendering the bazaar a great hideout for newbie pickpockets.  But it would also serve just to harass the (majority of) players who aren't playing pickpockets, so I don't know whether this would be a "fun" change overall.


As for people inexpicably disappearing with hide: I absolutely agree this can be annoying.

But I'll play devil's advocate and mention the flip-side of the coin: people rarely roleplay being distracted (me included - something I can improve).

There is a partial remedy for both sides of the coin: religious use of 'watch'.  I read some old threads describing 'watch' when it was first introduced, and it was described as a game changer - but I feel like more people would make use this interesting skill if it were a little easier to deploy.

For example, it would be really cool if the last person you looked at, used "tell" on, or otherwise interacted with in the last few seconds could be autowatched with a single command -- even if they were hidden:

Code Select Expand


> look elf
You look up at the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
A handsome elf with a bright future ahead.
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak is in excellent condition.
<about body>   a dark, hooded cloak

> tell figure Got my eyes on you, dirtbag...
Nobody here by that name.

> autowatch
That person moved into hiding.

(or)

> autowatch
You begin watching a tall shadow.


Or maybe:

Code Select Expand


> look elf
You look up at the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
A handsome elf with a bright future ahead.
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak is in excellent condition.
<about body>   a dark, hooded cloak

> tell figure Got my eyes on you, dirtbag...
Nobody here by that name.

> autowatch
You notice the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak just snuck to the north.
You are now watching the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.


Or if you waited too long:

Code Select Expand


> look elf
You look up at the tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak.
A handsome elf with a bright future ahead.
The tall figure in a dark, hooded cloak is in excellent condition.
<about body>   a dark, hooded cloak

> tell figure Got my eyes on you, dirtbag...
Nobody here by that name.

> autowatch
Too much time has passed; you have no idea where they went.


[nauta]

...the rest of us need to be more moderate in our responses. No thousand-sid bounties for stolen goods worth a quarter of that. When that kind of coin gets thrown around, the Templarates should start asking WHERE all that coin is coming from. Unless the thief is one of those annoying "Rah rah fight the powah" types, they don't need to be thrown in to the arena. Well, maybe they do, but they don't need to be put up against Bonesaw the MachoMul. Let them get out with a good ass kicking. And thieves (and other criminals), when you're released by the templarate, don't go on some idiotic revenge power trip against Authority. All this does is make it all the more likely the next thief who gets caught is going to get ganked.

Actually, there are IC consequences to overzealous reactions, so I don't tend to think this is as much of a problem as others seem to.

I guess to reword my initial idea a bit: I'd like it if people noticed that they were stolen from more often.  Maybe thieves should just plant more than they steal.  That vibrating strapon surely wasn't in my hand when I went into the Gaj, was it?

[Talia]

This thread has tended to almost discuss recent IC events quite a bit. Please don't do that. This kind of skirting the edges of discussion of actual IC happenings is not a good practice; everyone involved ends up getting hints about things. (Not to mention people are outing themselves as player-of-Amos.)

[BadSkeelz]

I stand by my position that most thieves aren't played very well.

Planting could definitely lead to some fun shenanigans, but also potential griefing in Allanak where spice can draw NPC attention. I think we can all agree that crime is funnest when it's PC to PC and isn't liable to immediately descend in to murder.

Let the code sort it out. The crime code response is so rapid that I never begrudge folks using the code to escape.

Do you LIKE being romperstomped by NPCs, or by PCs that have grown tired of people taking advantage of code? Outrageous actions by both sides are driven by a vicious cycle of overpowered code (Stealth and crimcode) and OOC considerations. It's not just people who are stolen from who over-react; I've seen enough player criminals over the years react to being caught by pursuing suicidal vendettas against authority that it's better to just kill new PCs outright. Players have overwrought attachments to their items, but also their sense of entitlement for being treated "respectfully."

The psychological problems for why petty crime descends in to hack-and-slash are more difficult to address, but we can at least loosen the code so that more petty crime and counter-crime can exist. If crime was more common (or noticeable) and less of a big deal, people might react to it in a more reasoned manner.

I wonder if part of the problem might be that items in Zalanthas are both very expensive and also practically indestructible. People are used to buying all their sweet gear and then never needing to replace it. If armor and weapons wore out more, people would need to replace it more, Merchants wouldn't need to charge so much for it, and thievery would become part of a more natural attrition rate.

[RogueGunslinger]

Having played on both sides of the fence, for every stupid ass thief who over reacts to being caught and seeks suicide, there is an equally stupid ass suicidal soldier chasing thieves into the labyrinth because they lost their jade-pommeled obsidian saber. I don't think poor play is limited to thieves.

I think the problem is not with the code but with how people act when it's used. I don't really think things need to be changed on the coded side of things. Making items cheaper and more prone to breaking is interesting, but I don't think it will make people any less pissed off about thieves. People don't hate thieves because they're attached to their items, they hate them for the same reason a thief hates being caught and beat up by soldiers.

They take it as a personal affront. "How dare you steal from me!?" And things escalate from there.


I like the idea of making crime more common and less of a big deal, but I honestly don't know how you would do that codedly. Going to jail isn't really a big deal as it is. Stealing is only dangerous because of PC's, not the crime-code which can easily be avoided.

[Twilight]

Pretty sure there used to be a NPC in Nak's bazaar that would attempt to steal from people, every once in a while.  Haven't seen it in at least a decade now, though.