Play in Tuluk

[Fujikoma]

*You can be the nicest person in the Known and still be shunned/scorned/killed just for being inked nice in Allanak.

*Unless you have an organization like a House to protect you.

ftfy

[Desertman]

Yar, I think I said somewhere earlier in this thread that making Tuluk more gritty and more appealing to gritty underclass commoners has to be a hard line to walk before you start turning it into Allanak 2.0, which nobody wants.

I don't think there is anything wrong with proposing ideas for a more "Tuluk-unique" equivalent of the things Allanak IS doing right that causes it to attract so many more gritty commoners. It doesn't mean we dislike Tuluk, it just means we want to make it better/more attractive to real commoners/less attractive to tressy-tresses/less top-heavy.

I did feel UnderTuluk provided an extremely unique yet equivalent area for the lawless. Tuluk is the sort of place where any criminal element is almost always going to have to operate underground, and for a while, you could do that both figuratively, AND literally...which I thought was awesome.

I wouldn't mind seeing old UnderTuluk reopened since all of that massive flooding sort of....stopped. What if this entire time after the water receded there has been a quiet organization that tunneled back down rebuilding their secret little under-city there? Yes, it would basically be the "Under Rinth" of Tuluk, but, it always felt so much different than the Rinth in Allanak. I never felt like it was just "Tuluk's Rinth". I personally liked it a lot and felt it added a lot to Tuluk.

Things like that.

[wizturbo]

There's clearly some dissonance between criminal players and Tuluk.  That's the fact of the matter.  Personally, when I play a criminal, I do so because I want to be a bit of an anarchist.  I don't want "the man" to tell me what to do.  That doesn't mean I won't scrape and bow, and get scared shitless if the man shows up on my front door...but to actually seek this person out seems at odd's with the psychology of a criminal.  But, as many others have said before, shadow artists aren't criminals.  They're agents of the state, with social rank and privledge, and seem like they should be treated as separate from the criminal discussion.  To say "there's legal crime in Tuluk" is a bit of a confusing statement to make in the documentation.  In fact, it should instead say there's rogue-like work to be had in Tuluk directly from the government.

What's stopping true crime from occurring in Tuluk with the frequency that we'd like?  The powers of the Templarate, the lack of any safe haven once you're wanted, and the causality dilemma of the city-state not being as popular, and thus criminally minded players would rather set up shop in greener pastures.  There's also a tendency for thuggish criminals to be brazen and in your face, an attitude that perhaps doesn't mesh well in Tuluk.  

Even for subtle criminal types (thieves/burglars), Tuluk just doesn't seem like a ripe place to ply your trade.  I remember playing a Gypsy burglar once and as far as my PC at the time could tell...it would be horribly stupid to steal anything in Tuluk.  There just wasn't any profit to be had in it.  More likely to be caught, and if caught, the penalties were potentially much more severe.  Whereas in Allanak I knew that as long as I didn't rob anyone important, I could just give a Templar their cut (if I wanted to be proactive) or pay off the Templar that caught me with a much larger bribe (if I wanted to be reactive).  I didn't have to break the tribal (and perhaps criminal) tradition of being insular by sharing my plans with anybody.  

In my opinion, if the staff want crime in Tuluk, it's as simple as making documented routes of avoiding or reducing the consequences of being caught.

[Nyr]

foreigner use of the shadow artist system

God forbid being a citizen would confer some advantages over non-citizens in your own city-state.

Well I thought it was a caste system and not simply inks > all non inks. Do GMH have status or not. Just clarify it. Say they don't and we can go from there.

You're correct.  It is a caste system and not simply inks > all non-inks.  This is indicated in the documentation for the caste structure.

Documentation can always be improved.  At this point there is enough documentation for Tuluk that additions would probably be better made as combined adjustments that clarify and reduce the amount of documentation.  Documentation is also something that is intended to detail and expound on the rule far more than the exceptions.  This is what players and staff use to guide, back up, and justify IC action.

With that said, the GMHs are a special case, one that has been discussed and indeed one that is in the documentation in a few places, though (mentioned above) it could be improved.  This is a blurb from this page:

Independent social status (status that is completely dissociated from affiliation, employment, birth, or partisanship) is very rare. It is more far more common to see social status from affiliation than not.

You can gain social status from affiliation.  On that same page, there exists a chart detailing a general guideline of where groups and ranks sit in the general social order.  Affiliation (employment, partisanship, or even enslavement) with any of those groups affects your social status, in general.  You'll notice that there is a whole section for the Merchant Caste, and that the Merchant Caste is specifically tailored towards the Great Merchant Houses as those are the most common types of affiliated merchants.  At the top of that is Head of House.  A GMH Head of House, in general, has as much social sway, power, and influence in Tuluk (and likely equivalent for Allanak) as senior family for a noble house or a high templar.

You'll see also that another Tuluki document is meant to be used in conjunction with the chart, as the chart page is very minimal.  This page is more detailed:

http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Social%20Hierarchy

On this page, we have a section specifically for description of each "sub-caste."  Here is what it has first for the commoner caste:

Overall, this caste consists of the majority of Tuluki citizens. The subdivisions below are meant to group commoners into four major areas (sub-castes). These sub-castes have no particular supremacy over each other.

This is important.

Merchants (relevant parts bolded):

This sub-caste consists mainly of Great Merchant House family and those enjoying higher ranks within those organizations. Great Merchant Houses are established and powerful monopolies that have garnered massive amounts of influence due to their wealthy and broad reach. It is possible for a commoner to gain social status with employment from a Great Merchant House, or even with a partisan agreement with one. It is much more rare and unlikely that a commoner would gain social status without that affiliation. Great Merchant Houses are organizations that span the Known World. As such, those Great Merchant House employees who are able to claim citizenship may have a slightly higher social status then those who cannot - especially in legal matters. However, since the social power of the Great Merchant House is largely a function of their tremendous wealth and not any perceived quality of character, the differences are minor. Each Great Merchant House treats their crafting, military and hunter branches uniquely. For more information on relative social status, representatives of those houses may provide information in-game.

So with that said, the implication for social rank is that GMH people of rank have social rank in Tuluk regardless of their citizenship; a special case existing for them and others that might fall into the merchant caste category (T'zai Byn for example).  There isn't really any equivalent to this anywhere else in the Known World--any organization that spans the Known will have special privilege and favor to call upon.  As this documentation existed prior to the revised shadow artist system, we probably could see about incorporating that into the shadow artist docs.  The challenge would be in figuring out wording. 

Either way, though, as it stands right now...you have options if you have rank in a GMH, regardless of citizenship...and you can also talk to your clan staff about those options!

[Fujikoma]

If you're mid-level merchant house, why the fuck do you give a fuck about Amos the dirty grebber... wait, I can see how this could become a concern, but at the same time, you should be so far beyond his power-level that such a conquest is trivial to you. To you, he is a bug you allow to exist even if it's displeasing, well, until he gets frisky and tries some shit, and then it's ON.

[Rathustra]

I'm just here so I don't get disappeared.

[yousuff]

I'm just here so I don't get disappeared.

Aide Rathustra? I never had an aide Rathustra. They must have never existed.

[Inks]

I really enjoy Tukuk nowadays.

[Barsook]

I really enjoy Tukuk nowadays.

[nauta]

I really enjoy Tukuk nowadays.

[RogueGunslinger]

Oops. Wrong thread.


eeditedd

[Malken]

Oops. Wrong thread.


eeditedd

[nauta]

Oops. Wrong thread.


eeditedd

[ABoredLion]

I think where you really started the game, and where you first got really ingrained into things has a heavy effect on where you are willing to play or what you put up with later as a player. On the subject of playing in Tuluk, I've played for a little bit now, and because I started in Allanak I feel that I'm spoiled for going to Tuluk. The caste system is a cool idea, and in truth, Allanak has its own. The difference I suppose is the rigidity of the caste system in Tuluk, and the more apparent limitations on the average person. In Allanak, the feeling is that you can be a nobody, with no substantial backing or background, and work your way up the social ladder, in a near limitless fashion.

This isn't true obviously, there is a glass ceiling, but become an absolute monster of a player, and you'll have Highborn in your head, who are practically your friends(though you would never claim it), you'll swim through social ladders like a hammer-headed dujat, and generally, you just won't feel like all of your time and effort to 'rise' is limited. It doesn't matter that in truth you'll never be more than a commoner in Allanak, because once you get good at whatever it is you do, people want you around, and the reality is that you -can- hold more power than the average nobleborn....well, it'll -feel- that way.

Again not necessarily true, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's a constant reminder, constant limitation upon your potential to be more than you are. Maybe its just my style of play that ruins Tuluk for me, but I like taking someone that's nothing or no one, and then rising from low or unknown origins to become a terrifying or just generally impressive person. The feeling of 'this is your caste, you never leave it, you stay within your caste, the best you can manage is a lifetime servitude to some merchant' isn't giving me the kicks I need to being willing to play there. I really liked some of the documentation suggesting that in the past there was this idea of some 'hunt' that offered extreme prestige, and the implication there was that if you're the best of the best, at whatever you do, you deserve to jump up the social ladder, unless I misunderstood it. As it is, the closest thing to this is the possibility to make your own 'clan' and merchant house. I really did like this, but considering the social structure in Tuluk, I'm much more likely to try making one of these in Allanak any day of the week.

I really don't want my first post on here to come off as a complaint by any means, and I don't mean it as such. Tuluk is perfectly fine the way it is, and though I would argue it a huge hassle in comparison to Allanak(where you can be from almost anywhere and experience the joys of leaving out any gate for example) I think it offers its own flavor and taste for players that like the rigid system. Some players may enjoy playing someone bound up in the possible political intrigue offered by a solid caste. I really do believe it's a matter of enjoying a flavor. I've tried to create characters there multiple times, but couldn't really get into it, and I'm sure that's because I started in Allanak. I don't know if I would necessarily say Allanak is more 'gritty' by any means though. Jus' as much murderin', betrayin', and corruptin' goin' on in the City-State of the Rising Sun best ah kin tell.

[HavokBlue]

Tuluk has documented methods by which commoners can increase their social status and Allanak doesn't.

[BadSkeelz]

I don't find the Tuluki social system to be any more restrictive than Allanak's. It seems a great deal looser if anything, actually. I do think you can play a nobody in Allanak more effectively and for longer periods, because the "Flavor" of the establishment there is more dismissive of commoners and you have more middling organizations to disappear into. I think it'd be difficult to play a bog-standard commoner in Tuluk for any length of time without having a bunch of Lords, Templars, and others really wanting to recruit you to their cause.

I do feel that the "caste" system is really just a semantic difference and isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be. It's no coincidence that it maps almost exactly on to the Allanaki "Class" system, and there seems to be just as much mobility within the Commoner caste as there is within Allanak's Commoner class.

[Jingo]

Dammit I'm sick of the thoughtful analysis from this 2 character nub.

Get on my level 100+ played.

(actual content)

It might be apt to consider Allanak as a city-divided to Tuluk as the the city-that-is-not. Or at least on a surface level it often seems that Allanak has been setup to actually be wedged apart by the factionalism in every corner of the city. As a common citizen in Allanak, you're set against gemmed, elves, 'rinthi, northies, 'rinthers etc. Which creates inevitable tensions during player interaction.

It seems to me that Tuluk lacks these internal wedges. If Allanak is a bunch of groups squished together by the yoke of the templarate. Tuluk is one group divided by an arbitrary caste system. There are few, or less pressures pressing Tuluk apart and many, many more pressures pressing inward into Tuluk from the outside. Think Kryl, southern agression etc. The tension is limited even more so by a templarate that prefers to disappear troublemakers quietly. Not to mentionl the culture of 'subtlty' that often smooths over that factionalism that occurs under the surface.

So that makes Tuluk a much less the 'us vs everyone' and a more 'insiders vs outsiders' kinda deal. This could at least partly explain the difference in flavor.

[Fujikoma]

I was just a few days shy of 100 days played once. Then I took an arrow to the knee.

[senseofeven]

Tuluks is different. Allanaks is different.

Tuluk is cohesive, team playing (perhaps). Allanak is eryone jus' waitin' t'get a shot at m'back.

[Fujikoma]

Tuluks is different. Allanaks is different.

Tuluk is cohesive, team playing (perhaps). Allanak is eryone jus' waitin' t'get a shot at m'back.

I imagine Tuluk is only cohesive and team playing on the surface. Plenty of evidence IRL that there's fun-ruining assholes everywhere.

[IAmJacksOpinion]

I don't find the Tuluki social system to be any more restrictive than Allanak's. It seems a great deal looser if anything, actually. I do think you can play a nobody in Allanak more effectively and for longer periods, because the "Flavor" of the establishment there is more dismissive of commoners and you have more middling organizations to disappear into. I think it'd be difficult to play a bog-standard commoner in Tuluk for any length of time without having a bunch of Lords, Templars, and others really wanting to recruit you to their cause.

I do feel that the "caste" system is really just a semantic difference and isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be. It's no coincidence that it maps almost exactly on to the Allanaki "Class" system, and there seems to be just as much mobility within the Commoner caste as there is within Allanak's Commoner class.

+1. BadSkeelz has been my totem spirit lately.

The caste system of Tuluk has always felt like something that lives in the documentation to me, and not in the game itself. You're still basically either a Noble or a Commoner, and that's no different than from in Allanak. Despite there being a stated "caste system", you don't feel the difference between these castes as much as you do in Allanak. The Nobles all hang out at the bar with you (literally at the bar), and want to be your friend. Having a caste system is kind of irrelevant, because everyone is treated with this "thanks for saving our bacon!" post-occupation respect. Which is cool, the game doesn't need two "lay the commoner in the mud puddle and walk over him" cities. But the docs and the actual play of the city don't seem to mesh.

[Desertman]

Everyone always throws out that qualifier for Tuluk of "on the surface".

Tuluk is gritty, it just doesn't appear that way....on the surface.

Tuluk is actually very backstabby, it just doesn't appear that way....on the surface.

The nobility and the templarate are just as gruesome as in Allanak, it just doesn't appear that way...on the surface.

Tuluk only appears cohesive and "team playing"...on the surface.

Tuluk only seems cleaner/more fancy.....on the surface.


The surface is what the majority of the playerbase in any given area sees and experiences. Most people will ONLY EVER experience "the surface". Maybe one problem might be that the majority of the people only ever see and experience what's "on the surface".

When the majority of the playerbase experiences only what's "on the surface", then that IS the play experience for that area.

In terms of attracting players and changing the "feel" and "experience" of an area...the only thing that matters on that front is "How does the majority experience this location.".

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

Sure a few nobles and a handful of Templars all know what's "really happening". Good for them. To Joe commoner is it is tea and silk and everyone smiling happily to each other in every tavern regularly for their entire lives in the city. People who want to play truly gritty underclass commoners don't want that life, even if the player knows out of character what's happening "below the surface".

(I do believe steps are being taken to make things less "below the surface" however, and I'm glad to see that. If anything this is a post praising that change in direction.)

[wizturbo]

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

This line of thinking has a lot of merits.  For instance, a friend has been urging me to read a series of books (11,000+ pages I'm told), with the prospect that perhaps 3 or 4 thousand pages in I'll really understand what is going on and it'll be super awesome.  I'm sorry, but reading 3-4 thousand pages in order to start enjoying myself just doesn't appeal to me at this point in my life.

The same is true for "subtle" plots in Armageddon.  I'm okay with having deep, secretive plots...so long as there are plenty of fun and exciting plots right there on the surface for everyone to enjoy. 

[Desertman]

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

This line of thinking has a lot of merits.  For instance, a friend has been urging me to read a series of books (11,000+ pages I'm told), with the prospect that perhaps 3 or 4 thousand pages in I'll really understand what is going on and it'll be super awesome.  I'm sorry, but reading 3-4 thousand pages in order to start enjoying myself just doesn't appeal to me at this point in my life.

The same is true for "subtle" plots in Armageddon.  I'm okay with having deep, secretive plots...so long as there are plenty of fun and exciting plots right there on the surface for everyone to enjoy.  

I just meant that when the majority of players only ever see the easy going, we all work together for the Sun King, we all smile, we are all clean and orderly, we aren't criminals, and we never openly go after each other Tuluk.....that IS the play experience for Tuluk.

A handful of people might see the true "below the surface" cutthroat gritty nature of the city....but for the majority of the playerbase....that Tuluk doesn't exist.

If that Tuluk doesn't exist for the majority of the playerbase, then that Tuluk is irrelevant in terms of attracting players.

A great advertisement is, "Murder, corruption, betrayal!".

A great advertisement isn't, "Murder, corruption, betrayal....maybe one day if you play here long enough and get in with the right people....but probably you will never see it....in fact we have rules in place to kind of keep you from seeing it as much as possible because we are super subtle as a society.".

[Delirium]

If the majority is only experiencing "the surface"....it doesn't really matter what's happening below the surface in terms of the feel/atmosphere/reality of the location.

This line of thinking has a lot of merits.  For instance, a friend has been urging me to read a series of books (11,000+ pages I'm told), with the prospect that perhaps 3 or 4 thousand pages in I'll really understand what is going on and it'll be super awesome.  I'm sorry, but reading 3-4 thousand pages in order to start enjoying myself just doesn't appeal to me at this point in my life.

The same is true for "subtle" plots in Armageddon.  I'm okay with having deep, secretive plots...so long as there are plenty of fun and exciting plots right there on the surface for everyone to enjoy. 

I was just discussing this with someone the other day. I completely agree. What use is the most amazing story ever told if only 1% of the playerbase gets to truly share in it?