Play in Tuluk

[wizturbo]

A great advertisement is, "Murder, corruption, betrayal!".

A great advertisement isn't, "Murder, corruption, betrayal....maybe one day if you play here long enough and get in with the right people....but probably you will never see it....in fact we have rules in place to kind of keep you from seeing it as much as possible because we are super subtle as a society.".

Agreed.  As the remnants of "Jiyan-Sel" dies a bloody death in Tuluk, hopefully M.C.B will replace it.  

[Xalle]

I find it helpful to see the caste system as bloodlines. There's a heavier emphasis on your roots and bloodlines in general in Tuluk, which is why it's taboo to kank outsiders if you're trying to rise in 'society' - it's a huge dent in your reputation if discovered. If you're just a commoner who crafts furniture for a living, you'd know it was disapproved of by most and the pressure of society was against you, but it's up to you whether you give a shit.

A completely taboo crime is to kank across castes, unless it's a noble/faithful with a pleasure slave. If you attempt to cross these divides, you might create murky blood and hazier distinctions of whose blood is superior, and that upsets the order and a facet of control Muk exerts over his dominion.

There's a  common perception that Tuluk is posh, but I don't think it has to be. We're doing some stuff staffside to try and help represent this better, but we can't stop people playing their PCs a certain way. I don't think that an appreciation of art and culture is limited to posh people – nor is it exclusively Tuluki. Tulukis use it to express who they are and for propaganda, and it's part of their heritage across the caste spectrum. Nor need it be the kind of sophistication that's more western Victorian manners and etiquette rather than scheming and wheeling and dealing in an ancient hot place.

I can speak from experience here as I've played mostly gritty low-life commoners, including in Tuluk over the years and had a good time there, and I know others have too. It's hard though when there aren't many of you, as you stand out as an anomaly when you shouldn't do. It can also seem a bit cliquey as you can't always be so involved in the plots that are going on without being 'upper tier', and there aren't enough other pcs like you to have your own plots with. There's more that we as staff can do to try and facilitate this kind of role though, and we're working on that.

[Desertman]

^^^One of the hardest parts about playing a gritty PC in Tuluk for me the few times I have attempted it has ALWAYS been how much I stand out to people. It makes it pretty hard to just fade into the background and be "common" when everyone looks at you like you are an anomaly.

"No really, you wouldn't care that I'm walking around with no shoes on and eating dirty tubers to survive. Really. I promise you wouldn't."

"I dare say you are wrong! Now come with me and let's get you shoed post haste!"

Y u do this to me? Just let me have bare foots and tuberz plz.

[Nergal]

The bar for getting into plots in Tuluk is arguably pretty low - you have sponsored leaders who are taking on employees, involving them in plots, as well as partisans, involving them in even more. It's way too simplistic to imply that what's below the surface is inaccessible to the majority when Tuluk is set up the opposite way, gameplay-wise. Allanak is more or less the same way - the ways to get into the gritty, inner-city political plots of Allanak are more or less the same as in Tuluk. There has been, from time to time, a lack of player participation in the systems that keep Tuluk's plots oiled and running, but this, like everything else in the game, is cyclical. The more who are involved in patronage, in shadow artists, and in bards, the more in-city plots there are in Tuluk and the more that players get exposed to them.

As far as subtlety goes, I would say in Tuluk, the "us vs. them" mentality is represented in a subtle way whereas in Allanak it's more blatant. Beyond that it doesn't seem to affect plots in either city in ways that are described in some of the last few posts. Being "us" helps you get into plots in Tuluk, whereas being "us" in Allanak helps you get into plots in Allanak. It helps you not disappear in Tuluk whereas it helps you to not get thrown in the Arena in Allanak. It may not be a setting that appeals to everyone. But the goal of the staff members of the Northlands team right now is absolutely to make sure that a majority of Tuluk's plots are accessible to Tuluki citizens that make a basic effort to be a part of them. Not that this hasn't been more or less the case for the past several years, but it's definitely something we'd like to encourage through positive enforcement.

[RogueGunslinger]

My question is if people don't like the different flavor that Tuluk is on the surface, and don't want to delve into the intricacies of what gives the place variety underneath the surface, what purpose does having another massive city even serve? It seems like most complaints about the city tend to come from it not being like Allanak.

It just fells like a lot of overlap for little payoff and a segregated player-base that 90% of the players never feel any interaction with because they're on the other side of the known. I think the more attempts to make Tuluk playable for everyone the greater the split in the player-base will be and the more exaggerated the underlying problems with the city being playable will be.

[Nergal]

My question is if people don't like the different flavor that Tuluk is on the surface, and don't want to delve into the intricacies of what gives the place variety underneath the surface, what purpose does having another massive city even serve? It seems like most complaints about the city tend to come from it not being like Allanak.

It just fells like a lot of overlap for little payoff and a segregated player-base that 90% of the players never feel any interaction with because they're on the other side of the known. I think the more attempts to make Tuluk playable for everyone the greater the split in the player-base will be and the more exaggerated the underlying problems with the city being playable will be.

Speaking for myself, based on the unscientific poll in this thread, replies within the thread itself, and regularly checking player counts in both cities as part of my curiosity as a Tuluk staffer, the vast majority of people simply don't fit the criteria here, so the overall point of the question in your first sentence is moot. The answer to your question would certainly be "there is no point in having Tuluk" if a majority of players didn't want to play there. The reality is that most people do enjoy playing in Tuluk, or would enjoy it (at all or even more) if adjustments were made.

We would like Tuluk to be playable as much as Allanak is playable. That doesn't mean "playable for everyone" per se, because people will always have differing tastes. 16 (14%) respondents to this poll said they would never, ever play in Tuluk, no matter what happened to it. That's fine. There are also players who have never played in Allanak and/or don't want to play there, believe it or not. We still want the option to be there for people who like both, though - which is the majority of players - and ultimately, we want to entertain as many people as possible. To that end, we're definitely interested in making adjustments and looking at player ideas, but there isn't a slippery slope to worry about here.

[Desertman]

The bar for getting into plots in Tuluk is arguably pretty low - you have sponsored leaders who are taking on employees, involving them in plots, as well as partisans, involving them in even more. It's way too simplistic to imply that what's below the surface is inaccessible to the majority when Tuluk is set up the opposite way, gameplay-wise. Allanak is more or less the same way - the ways to get into the gritty, inner-city political plots of Allanak are more or less the same as in Tuluk. There has been, from time to time, a lack of player participation in the systems that keep Tuluk's plots oiled and running, but this, like everything else in the game, is cyclical. The more who are involved in patronage, in shadow artists, and in bards, the more in-city plots there are in Tuluk and the more that players get exposed to them.

As far as subtlety goes, I would say in Tuluk, the "us vs. them" mentality is represented in a subtle way whereas in Allanak it's more blatant. Beyond that it doesn't seem to affect plots in either city in ways that are described in some of the last few posts. Being "us" helps you get into plots in Tuluk, whereas being "us" in Allanak helps you get into plots in Allanak. It helps you not disappear in Tuluk whereas it helps you to not get thrown in the Arena in Allanak. It may not be a setting that appeals to everyone. But the goal of the staff members of the Northlands team right now is absolutely to make sure that a majority of Tuluk's plots are accessible to Tuluki citizens that make a basic effort to be a part of them. Not that this hasn't been more or less the case for the past several years, but it's definitely something we'd like to encourage through positive enforcement.

I think one thing to consider is that the major complaint for Tuluk for most people who don't enjoy playing there or have a difficult time playing there is, "This place doesn't really provide many roleplay opportunities for truly gritty characters/real commoners.".

Nobody is really arguing that you can, if you do it right, work your way up through the right social groups to get into the "real Tuluk".

But, in order to work your way up through those social groups you have to adapt your PC to/create a PC who would fit in with those social groups.

Those social groups are notably not conducive to playing gritty commoners. So, if you want to really experience "real Tuluk", you better play someone who is going to fit in with those social groups that will allow you to do that.

[Nergal]

Well, as Xalle said, that's one of the things we're working on improving. I don't feel that there aren't presently clans in Tuluk that allow "gritty" characters to exist, or even opportunities for independent groups of "gritty" characters to rise up. It's really just a matter of cultivating an environment for it to help that along more than it happens now.

[Desertman]

Well, as Xalle said, that's one of the things we're working on improving. I don't feel that there aren't presently clans in Tuluk that allow "gritty" characters to exist, or even opportunities for independent groups of "gritty" characters to rise up. It's really just a matter of cultivating an environment for it to help that along more than it happens now.

Yup, I've seen efforts on this front and I'm looking forward to where it is going.

(I'm just being part of the conversation. I know you guys are pushing hard on this front.)

[Rathustra]

M8 we aren't closing Tuluk down just so people are forced to play where they don't want to. I mean first of all that'd mean you'd have to play with a bunch of Tuluki players, right?

But also, y'know, some people don't find Allanak particularly interesting. This is coming from someone who only ever had one Tuluki character before joining staff. It's just dirt, testosterone and bad attitudes. Which is great. I really enjoyed my 3 years playing in Allanak. I mean I never once interacted with a noble (offpeak lyfe) and only had one character in a clan (AoD), but it was just a big canvas for players to project their apocalyptic fantasies onto. Which is probably why lots of people like it.

Where am I even going with this.

[boog]

I like that Tuluk is different from Allanak.

I had a 'gritty' concept for a noble this past role call. Maybe I'll go for it next time there's a call.

Gritty doesn't have to mean sand and dirt and poverty. There's plenty of different grit in Tuluk.

Y'all are nuts. These sorts of posts are really divisive to the playerbase.

[Talia]

Where am I even going with this.

It kind of seemed like you were pointed in the direction of Tuluk. Go home, northie scum!

[RogueGunslinger]

My question is if people don't like the different flavor that Tuluk is on the surface, and don't want to delve into the intricacies of what gives the place variety underneath the surface, what purpose does having another massive city even serve? It seems like most complaints about the city tend to come from it not being like Allanak.

It just fells like a lot of overlap for little payoff and a segregated player-base that 90% of the players never feel any interaction with because they're on the other side of the known. I think the more attempts to make Tuluk playable for everyone the greater the split in the player-base will be and the more exaggerated the underlying problems with the city being playable will be.

Speaking for myself, based on the unscientific poll in this thread, replies within the thread itself, and regularly checking player counts in both cities as part of my curiosity as a Tuluk staffer, the vast majority of people simply don't fit the criteria here, so the overall point of the question in your first sentence is moot. The answer to your question would certainly be "there is no point in having Tuluk" if a majority of players didn't want to play there. The reality is that most people do enjoy playing in Tuluk, or would enjoy it (at all or even more) if adjustments were made.

We would like Tuluk to be playable as much as Allanak is playable. That doesn't mean "playable for everyone" per se, because people will always have differing tastes. 16 (14%) respondents to this poll said they would never, ever play in Tuluk, no matter what happened to it. That's fine. There are also players who have never played in Allanak and/or don't want to play there, believe it or not. We still want the option to be there for people who like both, though - which is the majority of players - and ultimately, we want to entertain as many people as possible. To that end, we're definitely interested in making adjustments and looking at player ideas, but there isn't a slippery slope to worry about here.

The thing is with the changes Tuluk has seen recently it seems we are moving in the direction of "playable for everyone". Levvies, city shrinkage, Byn presence. This whole thread is based on staff rolecall to get more commoners in Tuluk.

People would love it if there were 3 new Desert Elf tribes to pick from. That doesn't mean the game should have three more tribes. It just means people like variety, like options. Just like you had a bunch of people complaining about losing the 10 different flavors of tuluki Taverns, I'm sure you'd also get a bunch of people complaining that there's no more Tuluk.


Whether a huge move like that alienates more players than it pleases isn't really an issue because the increase in players around each-other would easily negate those who're so bugged by its removal that they leave. I don't think many people play this game solely because of Tuluk anyways. What you can play in one city can easily be done the same in another, it's not like Tuluk has a monopoly on subtlety, silks, and tea.

M8 we aren't closing Tuluk down just so people are forced to play where they don't want to....

...Where am I even going with this.

Not the same direction as me. I don't want to force people to play where they don't want to play. I want to force people to play with each-other... giggity.

[Nergal]

We only had a specific call for a Warrens family, not commoners in general. We also had a reminder to players about how Tuluk has changed lately, and a suggestion that any who are interested in said changes try Tuluk ought to see them for themselves. Those changes include the things you mentioned and a lot more. We were not forcing anyone to play where they don't want to - rather reminding people that other options exist.

That was months ago, when Tuluk usually had about 10 less PCs in it than Allanak on peak at any given time. Nowadays it's about even, and Allanak has more or less maintained the size of its player base, so it suggests players are moving around and new players are coming in to try out both cities. So the last thing we want to do is make a drastic change knowing people will leave due to it, because when considering the actual facts - both player count and the amount of plotting going on in both areas - there isn't a sense that such drastic consolidation is necessary or warranted.

[Reiloth]

I personally gravitate more towards Tuluk than Allanak, though i've had several PCs in the Labyrinth and one in Allanak proper that was mildly successful.

If Tuluk went away, I would probably stop playing Armageddon. Yep, i'm gonna tie myself around that tree. I hug it that much.

[Xalle]

Tuluk and its trees

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe I play off-peak too much, but pretty much every clan seems like a ghost-town in the major cities save for 1 or 2 which is in upswing. Then people keep joining that popular clan until a bunch of people get wiped out, and it shifts to some other clan.

I'd love it if we had double the players we have, to limit the ebb and flow from clan to clan and fill out the ones that seem lacking, and seeing as that is likely never going to happen, the next best option has always seemed to be to consolidate heavily.

When you're looking at it top-down I'm sure it's easy to see a bunch of players in a couple clans during peak hours and say "yeah the city is bumping right now!" When in reality 50% of your playerbase is waiting around for their 1-2 clannies to come online so they can do more than solo roleplay, while the other 50% is all interacting with eachother, having a great time.

Maybe it's just me, but going through those month long stretches where only you and one other person is past the recruit phase in your clan can be depressing.

[RogueGunslinger]

but pretty much every clan ...that popular clan ... some other clan.

...to limit the ebb and flow from clan to clan...

...bunch of players in a couple clans...

... in your clan can be depressing.

Fuck, maybe my problem is just with clans? Cut the clans in half!

[Dresan]

Before the changes I used to play only in tuluk, and I barely knew the way from  allanak to luirs even after years of playing. Since the changes though I've mostly been playing  in Allanak.  Still Tuluk will always hold a special place in my heart.

Once upon a time the game was vastly different. In a time when overpowered cheating assholes were absolutely everywhere, Tuluk was the last bastion where you could play a mundane and enjoy mundane plots. It was truly the last gritty place to play because you could actually play a grebber, or hunter and not have magickal beings crammed down your throat at every single turn.  Those were dark times, and luckily they are no more. As mundanes have grown to taken over the world, Tuluk has lost its place.  Still let us forget the one place that kept us mundane players a place to play through all the high fantasy bullshit.  I might be happy the Lirathan order is gone now, but once upon a time i was truly thankful they exist and kept my mundane being able to live his mundane life.


The changes were responsible for me trying out allanak and ultimately loving the fresh new experience there. However looking at the changes there is really nothing that has changed that makes me say, I wouldn't play in tuluk because of this particular change, I don't like all the changes but tuluk is still tuluk.

For example, after some thought i feel like Tuluk doesn't really need a rinth, instead what the -game- needs is something to prevent people from being to simply type look <mugger/pickpocket/assassin> and be able to fuck them over completely by telling everyone at the bar their mdesc. The only thing i still really don't like is the shadow artist system. Its not a bad but I would personally like it more with these tweaks:

1. Shadow artist system should only be available to nobles.
2. When negotiating the contract, nobles can choose their own artist for a task. Otherwise, the Templar will choose from his own pool of loyal shadow artist at extra costs to the noble.  
3. It is common/routine for partisans with favor with a noble to ask them to use the shadow artist system on their behalf against an enemy.
4. All other activities outside sanctioned contracts between nobles, Templar and shadow artists are considered crime. There is a lot crime in tuluk.  

My reasoning for these changes is the following, the fact that sanctioned crime is limited to nobility and their partisans means that everyone else will need to get their hands dirty to get things done, and it should be common enough occurrence , thus increasing real crime in the city. Right now there is no reason why people need to risk committing any real crime, when they can go to a templar and pay for a shadow artist without any risk. This turns things cheesy. My reasoning for letting nobles pick their own assassin is basically so it will be valuable to train your own assassin again. The old system allowed this, while the new system doesn't, instead puts them all into one large pool for everyone to use without loyalty or ability to get truly involved in the plots of a house. That never sat right with me. However templars could still keep a nice pool of their own shadow arists willing to work, no questions asked. They would probably get more work but be less involved in the intricate details of the plots.  

Even with the shadow system though, its just a personal opinion. Again I don't think Tuluk really needs a rinth, its just that the 'look' command is a bit too powerful and I feel that the game would benefit from it having some sort of delay, especially during combat. Or some other idea that would make petty crime against others like mugging a death sentence for the mugger or the victim unless you from the rinth.

[Zoan]

You're not allowed to know all the cool lore in Armageddon because Find Out IC. Except don't, because it's not shared.

[Centurion]

Numbers are one of the problems. Encourage friends, put the word out about ARM, get more people to play. Keep voting. It will be a roller coaster ride up and down, too many nobles, then not enough, too many underlings, and then too few. Trying to get that balance is difficult. Especially when you lose a strong PC leader. I love their being lots of nobles, but I'm also craving for more gritty characters!

The Byn coming north was great. I've wanted it for so long, and I hope those players are enjoying the role, and there is enough 'action' to let them play mercs, and not just play sparring dummies. I'd like to see some more GMH Mid-High level folks. Hardest thing about that is cutting in on players who build for the role, but simply because there is a PC above them shouldn't stop them from getting promoted. If there's three merchants, they can actually plot against each other, trying to get the approval of the nobles to make big bank. It could lead to a few more desirable artists. I can't remember who said it where, but last I knew, you could train your own shadow artist, and request them to do your contracts if they were your partisan, or employee.

What I am dying to see is the staff's plans for what will happen with the criminal world, these scum warreners. The Akai is closed. We have no "Guild" (that I am aware of). I'd like to see the access to the warrens opened up, and let in tribals and non inked citizens, and see if that helps add a little more grit?  It was once hard to get an apartment in the warrens... Though there needs to be some support of stuff to do, much like the ideas that have been applied for the Northern Byn. Things to do. Benefits to patrolling your turf in the warrens, and the like. Special hangouts, access to a certain NPC fences that has limited desirable items, etc.

We don't need a direct copy of the Rinth, Tuluk should have it's own flavour. I can't wait to see what is on the horizon.. I have a few ideas!

[HavokBlue]

Most undesirable criminal foreign PCs probably have the skills to get into areas like the Warrens regardless of the tattoo checker.

[Barzalene]

I prefer Nak. That said, the complaints people have about the subtleties  of Tuluk are often true, but not always true. And when it works, when you have people that totally get it and not only get it, but can make it accessible, it's a really beautiful thing.

[Xalle]

You're not allowed to know all the cool lore in Armageddon because Find Out IC. Except don't, because it's not shared.

What a shame there's not a whole clan dedicated to all the cool lore in Armageddon...

[RogueGunslinger]

Which clan?