Guild of records

[Molten Heart]

It's kind of ironic that there have been more commoner sorcerers than there have been literate commoners.  One would think that literacy would be more common among the underclass than true magic would be.  Just saying... I want to play a literate sorcerer so I can document my misdeeds for posterity.  Actually, nevermind.  It'd just be a bunch of boring ramblings with no ending because I couldn't write how I got killed by a siltflyer or something.

[Rahnevyn]

It's kind of ironic that there have been more commoner sorcerers than there have been literate commoners.  One would think that literacy would be more common among the underclass than true magic would be.

It's not that ironic when you think about it.

Both literacy and sorcery are crimes punishable by death in both city-states.

The templarates of both cities Have Ways(tm) of discovering literate characters and sorcerers residing in their walls. It stands to reason these types of people are eventually killed or driven off if they remain in the cities.

Literacy is not a skill that will help your survival in the desert wastes much, so it's likely most literates who escape the city either die in the dunes or make it smaller outposts and villages where they'd still need to go into hiding for fear of the local authorities, bounties on their heads, and any Other Means(tm) that the templarates might use to hunt them.

Sorcery, on the other hand, gives you certain advantages that would probably help in such a survival scenario.

So I can see a legitimate argument being made that the number of fugitive sorcerers could be higher than fugitive literates, although it's probably a very small number anyway in both cases.

[Molten Heart]

It's kind of ironic that there have been more commoner sorcerers than there have been literate commoners.  One would think that literacy would be more common among the underclass than true magic would be.

It's not that ironic when you think about it.

Both literacy and sorcery are crimes punishable by death in both city-states.

The templarates of both cities Have Ways(tm) of discovering literate characters and sorcerers residing in their walls. It stands to reason these types of people are eventually killed or driven off if they remain in the cities.

Literacy is not a skill that will help your survival in the desert wastes much, so it's likely most literates who escape the city either die in the dunes or make it smaller outposts and villages where they'd still need to go into hiding for fear of the local authorities, bounties on their heads, and any Other Means(tm) that the templarates might use to hunt them.

Sorcery, on the other hand, gives you certain advantages that would probably help in such a survival scenario.

So I can see a legitimate argument being made that the number of fugitive sorcerers could be higher than fugitive literates, although it's probably a very small number anyway in both cases.

Just wanting to clear this up... So generally speaking, outlaw sorcerery (because "all" sorcerery is outlawed) is more common that outlaw literacy?

[Marauder Moe]

It probably depends.

Sorceror PCs are probably more common than illegally literate PCs.

Illegally literate people are probably way more common than sorcerors.

[Molten Heart]

It probably depends.

Sorceror PCs are probably more common than illegally literate PCs.

Illegally literate people are probably way more common than sorcerors.

This is kind of where I was coming from.

[Rahnevyn]

I guess what I mean is, in the population of people who commit crimes punishable by death, sorcerers probably have a better escape/survival rate than literates do, because they at least have skills that will help them evade capture and survive.

Don't take this as "official word" though, it's just my conjecture.

[Marauder Moe]

Oh.  Well, I don't think it's particularly ironic.  There have also probably been more sorceror PCs than Sath noble or employee PCs, bar waiter PCs, mul bondmate PCs, silt skimmer captain PCs, dung sweeper PCs, and Circle Rusarla PCs.

[Gimfalisette]

in the population of people who commit crimes punishable by death, sorcerers probably have a better escape/survival rate than literates do, because they at least have skills that will help them evade capture and survive.

The tall, muscular woman writes a plot hole.

Casually, the tall, muscular woman steps through a plot hole.

A plot hole closes.

[Molten Heart]

Oh.  Well, I don't think it's particularly ironic.  There have also probably been more sorceror PCs than Sath noble or employee PCs, bar waiter PCs, mul bondmate PCs, silt skimmer captain PCs, dung sweeper PCs, and Circle Rusarla PCs.

You're right those other roles are under represented too and should be played more.  Thankfully only a few of these options would require a special application.  If there were a streamlined way to create a literate character I bet they'd be more represented in the game world and only limited because people don't want to play them.

[Marauder Moe]

I suspect you're being sarcastic, but I would totally love to have a PC bondmate if I ever get to play a mul again.

Anyway, it's well established that the PC population is not a proportional cross-section of Zalanthan demographics.  Half-elves, half-giants, dwarves, magickers, nobles, aides, GMH, Byn, and yes, sorcerers are highly over-represented.  Meanwhile, slaves, common laborers, elves, true merchants, and many of the things I mentioned before are under-represented.

If you want to argue that this disproportionality is a problem, probably best take it to a different thread.  (Or better yet, search for previous threads on the topic.)

Until it's been established that it is a problem (it is not), though, I don't think the fact that sorcerers are more common than literate commoners is a particularly valid argument for more widespread literacy.  There's better arguments for it already made in this thread.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why this thread is still so hot.  We already have a staff answer: maybe, but not until after code revamps for writing are in place.  Seems a solid time to table the idea.

[Molten Heart]

I suspect you're being sarcastic, but I would totally love to have a PC bondmate if I ever get to play a mul again.

Anyway, it's well established that the PC population is not a proportional cross-section of Zalanthan demographics.  Half-elves, half-giants, dwarves, magickers, nobles, aides, GMH, Byn, and yes, sorcerers are highly over-represented.  Meanwhile, slaves, common laborers, elves, true merchants, and many of the things I mentioned before are under-represented.

If you want to argue that this disproportionality is a problem, probably best take it to a different thread.  (Or better yet, search for previous threads on the topic.)

Until it's been established that it is a problem (it is not), though, I don't think the fact that sorcerers are more common than literate commoners is a particularly valid argument for more widespread literacy.  There's better arguments for it already made in this thread.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why this thread is still so hot.  We already have a staff answer: maybe, but not until after code revamps for writing are in place.  Seems a solid time to table the idea.

Yeah, sorry.  My response was a bit snarky and not to mention passive aggressive so I made some changes.

[Patuk]

What I am interested in is how literacy among elves and dwarves is spread. Neither have nobility inside the cities, and elves especially are a highly subversive lot.

[Patuk]

Also, I don't see literacy as something that would be illegal in Luir's, for a variety of reasons. It is probably a vnpc tanzimat haven.

[Gimfalisette]

I really doubt that the average VNPC commoner anywhere in the Known has any desire to be able to read or write. For one thing, there's nothing for them to read; libraries in general are very limited, even virtually. They just don't have thousands of volumes. And the majority of what is written is probably in a language that the average VNPC can't even speak (Cavilish). For another thing, the stuff that there is to read is really boring. ("Hey Amos, check out this latest issue of the Senate proceedings!")

[Patuk]

That is true for certain, yes. A bard regarding the tale of how Tektolnes beat the twelve league-tall giants beats the archive clause of Kadius' monthly Flame sales by a large degree.

[Erythil]

I know I can't use secret IC information, but my understanding is that the widespread ban on literacy is a historical event that happened at a specific time due to specific things, mentioned even on the history page.  These specific things are well enough in the past that I can see it making justifiable sense for the ban to be lessened at this time.

Personally, I would keep the current system where commoners who gain rank in Merchant Houses or start Merchant Houses learn Cavilish, but add to this by making it such that anyone who earns the very senior lifesworn rank of Advisor or similar as an aide should be taught writing.  If slaves can be trusted with writing, a lifetime employee of proven loyalty probably should, as well, and it would give a neat reward to aide positions which can often be a little dull.

[Harmless]

I know I can't use secret IC information, but my understanding is that the widespread ban on literacy is a historical event that happened at a specific time due to specific things, mentioned even on the history page.  These specific things are well enough in the past that I can see it making justifiable sense for the ban to be lessened at this time.

Personally, I would keep the current system where commoners who gain rank in Merchant Houses or start Merchant Houses learn Cavilish, but add to this by making it such that anyone who earns the very senior lifesworn rank of Advisor or similar as an aide should be taught writing.  If slaves can be trusted with writing, a lifetime employee of proven loyalty probably should, as well, and it would give a neat reward to aide positions which can often be a little dull.

Thanks so much for bumping my post with these thoughts! I still like the idea of expanding literacy in a limited fashion and I'm glad you found the thread to contribute to it, given that I know a few of your old PCs and what they achieved.

[jstorrie]

a key issue here is that Cavilish is not supposed to be particularly useful for non-business writing; it is, per documentation, not well-suited to writing general histories.

whether this limitation is respected by PCs who have RW Cavilish in-game I do not know. I've had RW Siri on PCs, but not RW Cav.

[Down Under]

I've always treated any sort of actual 'writing' in Cavilish that goes beyond business records as being some form of cipher or cryptography. It still shouldn't be incredibly verbose, but you can get some messages down.