Guild of records

[Harmless]

I formally propose that the best way to integrate literacy for commoners in a sustainable manner is to make a new Merchant Guild.

This merchant guild should be entirely about history keeping. That is the only function of their writing -- to keep history. Their niche is that they cross both cities and so can be somewhat objective in recording things.

They could be allied quite nicely with House Kurac, and could have very interesting northern and southern divisions.

Perhaps the writing can be in Cavilish.

With a heirarchy I am sure recruitment will be easy. Merchants will be ridiculously fun to play again, and the issue of "lost lore" will be resolved.

The House can have a very strict set of rules for each book. Essentially, every book is a mastercraft, so that time delay ensures that the events in the book are not less than 1 month old or so.

The books will allow the noble classes (and other literates) to absorb the knowledge of the commoners through an IC mechanism that is still extremely difficult (as books are singular items and can be stolen, etc.)


Heh, That player staff chat answer got me really excited. What other suggestions do we have for such a House? Can people think of more lore for it, or think of an existing House that can branch out into this potential business?

[Beethoven]

Yeah, I was just talking to my boyfriend about the illiteracy in the game. I talk to him about Arm a lot, almost to the point to where I think he has a fairly good concept of the game world even though he doesn't play. He thinks it's pretty unrealistic that mercantile-type characters that are not GMH heads do not at least have some kind of numeracy for record-keeping purposes, as merchants have had numeracy since numeracy was a thing.

Coding numeracy without literacy sounds like a challenge, though, I will admit, and this sounds like a good idea.

[James de Monet]

I don't know that I am for or against this idea, but I will say, I think the only way this would fly by the City-States, is if said Merchant House kept different records of "the truth" based on location. (Which probably also means keeping their own version of "the truth", maybe in some hidden complex somewhere, or in Luirs.

Real, actual histories have a way of being embarrassing to the powers that be, especially when said powers are thought to be absolute or essentially omnipotent (as here).

[Nyr]

You mean Voryek?

[Harmless]

You mean Voryek?

The guild that I have never met a PC playing in in the 7 years I've been in this game? Yeah, I guess I mean that one...

[Marauder Moe]

I was going to write up a big plot about how common literacy came to Zalanthas, but I realized that the more I wrote, the less likely it is for things to happen that way (since, you know, I'd be pre-spoiling the plot).

So I'll reduce it to just a few key points:

1) The Allanaki senate lifts the ban on literacy.  Why?  That'd be a mystery, and largely unimportant.  I do believe, however, that this change does need to start at a high level else the high level power realistically should simply squash it.

2) 1-2 RL years later, add an extended subguild that includes read/write.

3) Tuluk lags behind the literacy fad, creating a whole new set of criminal plots and/or increases strife between populace and government.  Maybe, with players pushing subtly enough on the populace and/or nobility, the Triumvirate eventually relents.

4) Read/write becomes part of guild_merchant skills, but only for players with karma (1-2 points).

[Harmless]

as long as literacy could be special-apped for, I don't mind the karma restriction, as I certainly agree that merchants should not all be literate out of the box. Any way of doing it is fine, but more and more I am looking forward to this possibility. If it were available I would definitely play it, enthusiastically.

I have always wanted to do literacy but nobility? Not as a noble. Not my thing in terms of the responsibility to play that role.

[Reiloth]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't literacy remain largely untaught/for the wealthy elite until the printing press?

[Nyr]

Voryek is a virtual organization, but it does exist in-game.  (For that matter, so does House Sath, though that is a noble House.)  You would recognize Voryek as the "History Page" House.  That's not to say that the stuff on the Chronology page was literally written down by Voryek (in fact, as a merchant house organization, it would appear most of their work involves artwork and things of that nature--they're quite a minor house), but a review of the GDB and past posts shows that it is common to refer to them as the historians of Zalanthas.  I thought your idea was based on that.

All of the points are there, though, if you want to connect the dots from the player/staff chat.  Staff are fine with players learning literacy in-game with the existing restrictions in-game (meaning if you get found out and you are a commoner, you die, and if you out the person that taught you, they'd probably be in for it as well).  Staff also are willing to support player initiatives to create a clan that lives beyond them, provided they invest the effort and succeed past any obstacles in the way for that.  As mentioned:  Merchant House Terash.  So you could develop this idea in-game if you wished, but the idea itself persists on a notion that flies against the established system, and probably (by itself) would not actually work (just as Voryek is not in actuality just a "historian" house).

Written cavilish actually is based on trade ciphers, so if your organization is of any size enough to require numeracy, your organization is already a merchant house.

If literacy was ever going to be more common it would have to be developed as an OOC concept first and (as MM says) likely from a high level when/if implemented IC.  At this time that isn't really in the cards.

[Harmless]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't literacy remain largely untaught/for the wealthy elite until the printing press?

A mastercrafted, functioning printing press would be good, but I don't think we need that. Scrolls would be in pretty high demand. They should be large and hard to conceal, given the quantity of what they could hold. But if, for example, scrolls describing the construction of a wagon or other fine crafts could be made, this could be the focus of a new House.

The House would require the protection of GMH to exist, most likely. If other players support the idea of keeping records or instructional scrolls in Cavilish, it could happen. They could be smuggled by skilled pickpockets to ensure invisibility. It just requires the playerbase to want it enough to be willing to deal with the resistance of the VNPC templarate/nobility/status quo that is managed by the staff and nobility PCs, but the concept itself is one the imms support. They just don't want to give it away.

So cool.

[Harmless]

As for how literacy should be perceived, I propose it should be like a "public secret," much in the way that the smuggling and use of spice in the Labyrinth is a public secret. People know it's illegal, people know that commoners sneak into the rinth at night to smoke now and then, but nobody admits to knowing it.

Merchants trade scrolls in Cavilish. As it's in Cavilish, it can't convey too much historic or personal information, but it could convey useful knowledge.

Additionally, a -code- of Cavilish words and concepts that do not seem to have any real meaning in Sirihish (i.e., when a player reads it) could be the means of secretive communication between players.

There could be the option to use this literacy to resist the establishment. There could also be the choice of fighting such "corruption" or "treason" within the guild itself. Certainly, publicly admitting that this is what you do would be foolish. The imms, though, will have to be "in on it" and allow them some leeway, because though many players will likely figure out OOCly that these PCs are trading in scrolls and learning to write, ICly they should still be perceived as going about their business.

A useful mechanism to explain this kind of mistake is that the power structure is stressed. In times of economic or political instability rogue elements like commoner literacy would bloom. So, some kind of destabilizing event would provide more excuse for such a change in the political power structure.

[Reiloth]

Something the Real World lacked was omnipotent, powerful defiler Sorcerer Kings who can easily oppress the people beneath them. What benefit do Tek and Muk get by letting literacy spread?

I just don't know if the vision you are portraying fits the theme of ArmageddonMUD. I could see limited literacy in the game, but not in that way.

[Delirium]

The solution: make literacy available to PCs via extended subguild options - but also make it illegal in most circumstances to possess.

Just like magick, and in the south, spice.

[Molten Heart]

Is teaching someone to be literate something any literate character can potentially do (provided their pupil is capable)?  What are the steps someone would need to take to successfully accomplish this?

[Harmless]

The solution: make literacy available to PCs via extended subguild options - but also make it illegal in most circumstances to possess.

Just like magick, and in the south, spice.

this would help infinitely. I'm not sure there is any one perfect solution, and I am fine with many. But the staff has to initiate it somehow.

[Harmless]

Is teaching someone to be literate something any literate character can potentially do (provided their pupil is capable)?  What are the steps someone would need to take to successfully accomplish this?

given how many ic years it would take to accomplish this realistically, I think it doesn't matter. I would prefer to use a special app to have it in advance with the years of study being virtual, so that the literacy can have an impact in game much sooner. In other words, learning from scratch is too close to impossible to be worth going for.

[Nyr]

You could also apply for GMH roles, or rise to that level in such an existing group.

[Molten Heart]

Is teaching someone to be literate something any literate character can potentially do (provided their pupil is capable)?  What are the steps someone would need to take to successfully accomplish this?

given how many ic years it would take to accomplish this realistically, I think it doesn't matter. I would prefer to use a special app to have it in advance with the years of study being virtual, so that the literacy can have an impact in game much sooner. In other words, learning from scratch is too close to impossible to be worth going for.

I understand how you feel.  The question is still valid.

[QuillDipper]

If you were going to teach someone literacy, I can't imagine that you'd aim for fluency. It'd be more like kindergarten level stuff, at least at first, and that would take some time to understand completely, but it isn't necessarily a skill either know ro you don't. It progresses.

[Jinxed]

Are you sure that you *need* literacy to bring your idea to live?
Easier solution would be just to hire the artists (not sure, but I am assuming that painting is still legal) and make them draw pretty pictures on walls, like this:


That would be rather interesting, actually - to *describe* a mural purely in words may be an interesting challenge.

The very basic example of mural (borrowed from me fortress in DF):
"An engraving of dwarves and elves. The dwarves are talking to the elves. The elves are angry."

[Quirrilicious]

I can see perhaps a specific subguild, but not main guild for these skills as a "commoner."

And no, a printing press isn't needed for a written language to become widespread. Look at what Sequoyah did for the Cherokee language and he sure as heck did not have a printing press. Also, other languages including English and as far back as the early Egyptian did not have printing presses yet flourished without them. In fact, early Egyptian is probably a good idea for how this would play out in Arm... eventually becoming more common than it is, but not too common that your every day grebber Amos or even awesome soldier #157 Malik would be walking around with their noses stuck in a scroll. Maybe once the necessary events happen even having some of those commoners worthy enough acclimated so they would not incur the wrath of the respective Kings and templarate for having such knowledge so that they may actually be useful peons that just happen to know how to read and write.

Edit: A guild or subguild isn't necessarily needed, as Nyr has stated, to get something like this rolling, but just a shift in thought and stigma. Perhaps caused by certain major events.

[Gimfalisette]

Wider literacy was one of the things about 2.ARM that I was really interested in. I enjoyed the literacy skill when I got to use it and it was at least marginally useful for plot stuff. (Great for taunting one's enemies at a safe distance.)

That being said, the write code absolutely sucks, as the staff knows and as anyone who has tried to write an in-game object knows. It sucks SO HARD.

I do think there's a tendency to fantasize that wider literacy would lead to greater use of writing in plots and more written materials. I think a little bit of that is true, but I've written a bunch of objects in game (like maybe 15 or so books, and a bunch of letters), and it's really extremely time-consuming to do (beyond the suck of the code) and then just...well...IMO not that useful. You need to be a good writer to write something book-length that is worthy of the game, the style has to be right, so just drafting the text takes many hours. And all that time spent writing, and then transcribing, is time that most players would rather spend actually playing the game.

I don't really think that greater literacy would lead to people wanting to play merchants more. Lots and lots of merchant family members have come and gone and, like nobles, most of them never write anything; if literacy was the key there would already be floods of merchant apps and those people would never store.

[Delirium]

Gimf makes a good point. The editor could use vast improvements.

I didn't find it too terrible if I took the time to format stuff before I started plunking it all in, but, time consuming.

[Reiloth]

I think we also have a bit of a bias, seeing as we are playing a text based game, we feel that writing IG should be more widespread. But why would commoners be interested in writing? The examples given above were not great examples of widespread literacy. They are actually good examples of literacy as it stands now in Armageddon. Literacy is a privilege of the powerful and rich, who make usually one copy of a book (akin to illuminated manuscripts of the medieval European era). They have slave scribes who can translate written texts and save their masters time, as well as take dictation. Even after the invention of the modern printing press, only 60% of men and 30% of women in puritanical Jamestown knew how to read and write.

I basically don't see how commoners would become interested in reading without literature being more ubiquitous. The industrial era and renaissance of science both came from widespread literacy in relation to the printing press, not to mention democratic revolutions, religious missionary improvements, etc. I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

[Is Friday]

>write board
Reiloth's reasonable post is saved to the board.