Guild of records

[Harmless]

I formally propose that the best way to integrate literacy for commoners in a sustainable manner is to make a new Merchant Guild.

This merchant guild should be entirely about history keeping. That is the only function of their writing -- to keep history. Their niche is that they cross both cities and so can be somewhat objective in recording things.

They could be allied quite nicely with House Kurac, and could have very interesting northern and southern divisions.

Perhaps the writing can be in Cavilish.

With a heirarchy I am sure recruitment will be easy. Merchants will be ridiculously fun to play again, and the issue of "lost lore" will be resolved.

The House can have a very strict set of rules for each book. Essentially, every book is a mastercraft, so that time delay ensures that the events in the book are not less than 1 month old or so.

The books will allow the noble classes (and other literates) to absorb the knowledge of the commoners through an IC mechanism that is still extremely difficult (as books are singular items and can be stolen, etc.)


Heh, That player staff chat answer got me really excited. What other suggestions do we have for such a House? Can people think of more lore for it, or think of an existing House that can branch out into this potential business?

[Beethoven]

Yeah, I was just talking to my boyfriend about the illiteracy in the game. I talk to him about Arm a lot, almost to the point to where I think he has a fairly good concept of the game world even though he doesn't play. He thinks it's pretty unrealistic that mercantile-type characters that are not GMH heads do not at least have some kind of numeracy for record-keeping purposes, as merchants have had numeracy since numeracy was a thing.

Coding numeracy without literacy sounds like a challenge, though, I will admit, and this sounds like a good idea.

[James de Monet]

I don't know that I am for or against this idea, but I will say, I think the only way this would fly by the City-States, is if said Merchant House kept different records of "the truth" based on location. (Which probably also means keeping their own version of "the truth", maybe in some hidden complex somewhere, or in Luirs.

Real, actual histories have a way of being embarrassing to the powers that be, especially when said powers are thought to be absolute or essentially omnipotent (as here).

[Nyr]

You mean Voryek?

[Harmless]

You mean Voryek?

The guild that I have never met a PC playing in in the 7 years I've been in this game? Yeah, I guess I mean that one...

[Marauder Moe]

I was going to write up a big plot about how common literacy came to Zalanthas, but I realized that the more I wrote, the less likely it is for things to happen that way (since, you know, I'd be pre-spoiling the plot).

So I'll reduce it to just a few key points:

1) The Allanaki senate lifts the ban on literacy.  Why?  That'd be a mystery, and largely unimportant.  I do believe, however, that this change does need to start at a high level else the high level power realistically should simply squash it.

2) 1-2 RL years later, add an extended subguild that includes read/write.

3) Tuluk lags behind the literacy fad, creating a whole new set of criminal plots and/or increases strife between populace and government.  Maybe, with players pushing subtly enough on the populace and/or nobility, the Triumvirate eventually relents.

4) Read/write becomes part of guild_merchant skills, but only for players with karma (1-2 points).

[Harmless]

as long as literacy could be special-apped for, I don't mind the karma restriction, as I certainly agree that merchants should not all be literate out of the box. Any way of doing it is fine, but more and more I am looking forward to this possibility. If it were available I would definitely play it, enthusiastically.

I have always wanted to do literacy but nobility? Not as a noble. Not my thing in terms of the responsibility to play that role.

[Reiloth]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't literacy remain largely untaught/for the wealthy elite until the printing press?

[Nyr]

Voryek is a virtual organization, but it does exist in-game.  (For that matter, so does House Sath, though that is a noble House.)  You would recognize Voryek as the "History Page" House.  That's not to say that the stuff on the Chronology page was literally written down by Voryek (in fact, as a merchant house organization, it would appear most of their work involves artwork and things of that nature--they're quite a minor house), but a review of the GDB and past posts shows that it is common to refer to them as the historians of Zalanthas.  I thought your idea was based on that.

All of the points are there, though, if you want to connect the dots from the player/staff chat.  Staff are fine with players learning literacy in-game with the existing restrictions in-game (meaning if you get found out and you are a commoner, you die, and if you out the person that taught you, they'd probably be in for it as well).  Staff also are willing to support player initiatives to create a clan that lives beyond them, provided they invest the effort and succeed past any obstacles in the way for that.  As mentioned:  Merchant House Terash.  So you could develop this idea in-game if you wished, but the idea itself persists on a notion that flies against the established system, and probably (by itself) would not actually work (just as Voryek is not in actuality just a "historian" house).

Written cavilish actually is based on trade ciphers, so if your organization is of any size enough to require numeracy, your organization is already a merchant house.

If literacy was ever going to be more common it would have to be developed as an OOC concept first and (as MM says) likely from a high level when/if implemented IC.  At this time that isn't really in the cards.

[Harmless]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't literacy remain largely untaught/for the wealthy elite until the printing press?

A mastercrafted, functioning printing press would be good, but I don't think we need that. Scrolls would be in pretty high demand. They should be large and hard to conceal, given the quantity of what they could hold. But if, for example, scrolls describing the construction of a wagon or other fine crafts could be made, this could be the focus of a new House.

The House would require the protection of GMH to exist, most likely. If other players support the idea of keeping records or instructional scrolls in Cavilish, it could happen. They could be smuggled by skilled pickpockets to ensure invisibility. It just requires the playerbase to want it enough to be willing to deal with the resistance of the VNPC templarate/nobility/status quo that is managed by the staff and nobility PCs, but the concept itself is one the imms support. They just don't want to give it away.

So cool.

[Harmless]

As for how literacy should be perceived, I propose it should be like a "public secret," much in the way that the smuggling and use of spice in the Labyrinth is a public secret. People know it's illegal, people know that commoners sneak into the rinth at night to smoke now and then, but nobody admits to knowing it.

Merchants trade scrolls in Cavilish. As it's in Cavilish, it can't convey too much historic or personal information, but it could convey useful knowledge.

Additionally, a -code- of Cavilish words and concepts that do not seem to have any real meaning in Sirihish (i.e., when a player reads it) could be the means of secretive communication between players.

There could be the option to use this literacy to resist the establishment. There could also be the choice of fighting such "corruption" or "treason" within the guild itself. Certainly, publicly admitting that this is what you do would be foolish. The imms, though, will have to be "in on it" and allow them some leeway, because though many players will likely figure out OOCly that these PCs are trading in scrolls and learning to write, ICly they should still be perceived as going about their business.

A useful mechanism to explain this kind of mistake is that the power structure is stressed. In times of economic or political instability rogue elements like commoner literacy would bloom. So, some kind of destabilizing event would provide more excuse for such a change in the political power structure.

[Reiloth]

Something the Real World lacked was omnipotent, powerful defiler Sorcerer Kings who can easily oppress the people beneath them. What benefit do Tek and Muk get by letting literacy spread?

I just don't know if the vision you are portraying fits the theme of ArmageddonMUD. I could see limited literacy in the game, but not in that way.

[Delirium]

The solution: make literacy available to PCs via extended subguild options - but also make it illegal in most circumstances to possess.

Just like magick, and in the south, spice.

[Molten Heart]

Is teaching someone to be literate something any literate character can potentially do (provided their pupil is capable)?  What are the steps someone would need to take to successfully accomplish this?

[Harmless]

The solution: make literacy available to PCs via extended subguild options - but also make it illegal in most circumstances to possess.

Just like magick, and in the south, spice.

this would help infinitely. I'm not sure there is any one perfect solution, and I am fine with many. But the staff has to initiate it somehow.

[Harmless]

Is teaching someone to be literate something any literate character can potentially do (provided their pupil is capable)?  What are the steps someone would need to take to successfully accomplish this?

given how many ic years it would take to accomplish this realistically, I think it doesn't matter. I would prefer to use a special app to have it in advance with the years of study being virtual, so that the literacy can have an impact in game much sooner. In other words, learning from scratch is too close to impossible to be worth going for.

[Nyr]

You could also apply for GMH roles, or rise to that level in such an existing group.

[Molten Heart]

Is teaching someone to be literate something any literate character can potentially do (provided their pupil is capable)?  What are the steps someone would need to take to successfully accomplish this?

given how many ic years it would take to accomplish this realistically, I think it doesn't matter. I would prefer to use a special app to have it in advance with the years of study being virtual, so that the literacy can have an impact in game much sooner. In other words, learning from scratch is too close to impossible to be worth going for.

I understand how you feel.  The question is still valid.

[QuillDipper]

If you were going to teach someone literacy, I can't imagine that you'd aim for fluency. It'd be more like kindergarten level stuff, at least at first, and that would take some time to understand completely, but it isn't necessarily a skill either know ro you don't. It progresses.

[Jinxed]

Are you sure that you *need* literacy to bring your idea to live?
Easier solution would be just to hire the artists (not sure, but I am assuming that painting is still legal) and make them draw pretty pictures on walls, like this:


That would be rather interesting, actually - to *describe* a mural purely in words may be an interesting challenge.

The very basic example of mural (borrowed from me fortress in DF):
"An engraving of dwarves and elves. The dwarves are talking to the elves. The elves are angry."

[Quirrilicious]

I can see perhaps a specific subguild, but not main guild for these skills as a "commoner."

And no, a printing press isn't needed for a written language to become widespread. Look at what Sequoyah did for the Cherokee language and he sure as heck did not have a printing press. Also, other languages including English and as far back as the early Egyptian did not have printing presses yet flourished without them. In fact, early Egyptian is probably a good idea for how this would play out in Arm... eventually becoming more common than it is, but not too common that your every day grebber Amos or even awesome soldier #157 Malik would be walking around with their noses stuck in a scroll. Maybe once the necessary events happen even having some of those commoners worthy enough acclimated so they would not incur the wrath of the respective Kings and templarate for having such knowledge so that they may actually be useful peons that just happen to know how to read and write.

Edit: A guild or subguild isn't necessarily needed, as Nyr has stated, to get something like this rolling, but just a shift in thought and stigma. Perhaps caused by certain major events.

[Gimfalisette]

Wider literacy was one of the things about 2.ARM that I was really interested in. I enjoyed the literacy skill when I got to use it and it was at least marginally useful for plot stuff. (Great for taunting one's enemies at a safe distance.)

That being said, the write code absolutely sucks, as the staff knows and as anyone who has tried to write an in-game object knows. It sucks SO HARD.

I do think there's a tendency to fantasize that wider literacy would lead to greater use of writing in plots and more written materials. I think a little bit of that is true, but I've written a bunch of objects in game (like maybe 15 or so books, and a bunch of letters), and it's really extremely time-consuming to do (beyond the suck of the code) and then just...well...IMO not that useful. You need to be a good writer to write something book-length that is worthy of the game, the style has to be right, so just drafting the text takes many hours. And all that time spent writing, and then transcribing, is time that most players would rather spend actually playing the game.

I don't really think that greater literacy would lead to people wanting to play merchants more. Lots and lots of merchant family members have come and gone and, like nobles, most of them never write anything; if literacy was the key there would already be floods of merchant apps and those people would never store.

[Delirium]

Gimf makes a good point. The editor could use vast improvements.

I didn't find it too terrible if I took the time to format stuff before I started plunking it all in, but, time consuming.

[Reiloth]

I think we also have a bit of a bias, seeing as we are playing a text based game, we feel that writing IG should be more widespread. But why would commoners be interested in writing? The examples given above were not great examples of widespread literacy. They are actually good examples of literacy as it stands now in Armageddon. Literacy is a privilege of the powerful and rich, who make usually one copy of a book (akin to illuminated manuscripts of the medieval European era). They have slave scribes who can translate written texts and save their masters time, as well as take dictation. Even after the invention of the modern printing press, only 60% of men and 30% of women in puritanical Jamestown knew how to read and write.

I basically don't see how commoners would become interested in reading without literature being more ubiquitous. The industrial era and renaissance of science both came from widespread literacy in relation to the printing press, not to mention democratic revolutions, religious missionary improvements, etc. I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

[Is Friday]

>write board
Reiloth's reasonable post is saved to the board.

[valeria]

As I understood it from the player/staff chat, the problem with widespread literacy right now is that the read/write database is crashing the game.

So let's not plan on having universal literacy until that gets fixed.

[solera]

While it doesn't change anything here, I understand that exchange of letters , either self written, or scribed, was widespread under the rule of the Roman Empire. (Not just for the elite.)

[QuillDipper]

Letters just aren't that necessary with the Way.

[Reiloth]

Yeah, exactly. Why would people need to write letters when they can instantly find someone's mind across the entire Known and 'instachat' them? It's kind of proven by the marked lack of federal funding for the Post in the USA, and the dwindling nature of 'snail mail' in our modern world. Imagine psionic way messages -- People might not even need cellular phones if that were the case.

I think what is accomplished most of all by literacy is the transmission of concepts, ideas, religions, science, mathematics, and knowledge. These esoteric consequences of literacy are what I believe Dictators (even non-omnipotent ones) have abhorred in the past (Book burning/banning, anyone?) Commoners would have no need for these esoteric concepts, at least from Tektolnes and Muk Utep's perspective, I imagine. With literacy comes a lack of control over large swaths of people, which is exactly what Templars and their Masters would not want.

IIRC, a riot began in Tuluk after a book made its rounds in the Nobility, started by a certain Dasari Noble. That is from a single book, being shown to people who could read, and word of its contents being repeated from mouth to ear. Imagine what might happen if people could read pamphlets, graffiti, etc. Conversely, the ONLY thing I could see as being a big benefit for wide-spread literacy is state propaganda, especially in Tuluk.

[Harmless]

I guess the point of this thread was never that commoner non merchants shouldn't have to read/write, but that merchants should be doing a LOT more of it realistically. Except I have seen literate merchants read a book exactly once in my seven years. I would think scrolls for them would have so many practical uses they'd be everywhere, were it not for state oppression.

"How do I make this special house order, senior merchant?"

"What, ya never seen a construction diagram? Thought you knew Cavilish, boy. Get your ass in the study and read about what you need yourself, I don't have time."

Basically I would love to see a guild where 30% of the members read once a month at least, 5% write that often, and the potential for covert plots around writing exist.

Crash considerations are real important too though. Oh well. Guess my dreams of a much more interesting merchant life aren't "reasonable" and so on. The cycle of assassins and thugs and so on will continue, but without at least the potential for more reading plots I will probably continue to stay away from merchants as I have been lately.

[Lizzie]

I've played a GMH "sponsored family member role" merchant. The most interesting part of being literate was reading all the old books in the estate's lock-box. I got involved in writing scrolls to send to nobility, templars, etc, but it was pretty limited since most of the RP was done "live" rather than "remote."

As for construction of stuff - there were no written construction documents for anything the Masons did. There were diagrams and drawings, but nothing written with any alphabet. If you need written directions to carve an ivory cat, then your character is likely not a crafter at all. Apprenticeship crafting doesn't involve reading manuals or instructions. So no, crafters have no need of literacy in order to do what they do. At best, they need to know how to sketch.

I like it as is. Keep it literate to the vast minority, allow for "exceptions to the rule" but keep the rule as tight as it is currently. I've played characters who would give their eye-teeth to learn to read. It's an awesome goal to have, now, because we know that the staff might actually allow for it to be added if you live long, have the opportunity to learn, practice, send logs, and generally roleplay with whoever is teaching you. It's been done before, so it's possible they'll do it again.

Diluting what is currently a niche ability, makes it less of a niche ability. The fact that it's incredibly rare is what makes it so interesting and compelling.  I'm not seeing how making it more easily accessible would add to the fun of the overall game playing. Any individual who wants the ability to read/write, can either respond to a sponsored role that involves literacy, or hope for an exception after a long time of IC progress and OOC log-sending.

I would like to see the writing skill re-implemented to be easier to use.

The OP claims that the "point" of the thread is that merchants who can already read/write, should use it more. You don't need to make more people able to read/write, for that to happen. Play a sponsored role, and use it more. Play a minion to a sponsored role, and help them come up with the idea to use it more.

"How do I make this special order?" Well - see this piece here? You attach it over there, use that screw - no not that one, the other one. Right. That size screw is always used for this kind of work. Now take a look at this finished piece I keep on display in the case here. See how the angles turn at that point? Right. Get that little widget there. Now turn it in the big red flat board. Not quite, you're getting it though. Work with the widget an five of those red boards if you need to, until you can do it properly. If you haven't done it right by then, stop workiing on that and make some more red boards for us."

That is how apprentices work with master crafters. They are taught, verbally and through demonstration and practice. They aren't given an instruction manual.

[Harmless]

I see. Glad you like the system as is. I bet the fact that you've been accepted as a merchant family member before has a lot to do with you liking it. I guess the rest of the merchants should be as happy as you are with the system despite never having interacted with it in any meaningful way.

I want the extended subguild as Delirium suggests. It would be literacy (novice) but would allow for learning to read in a more acceptable time period such as 1-3 IC years. The subguild represents a talent for learning to read and nothing else. I would roll a half dozen merchants with this subguild and even if one of them actually read a book I would be happy.

As it is now it is too daunting to be fun or interesting and I won't bother to pursue it. None of my PCs have ever lasted long enough.

[Gimfalisette]

Letters just aren't that necessary with the Way.

Actually, letters are pretty useful if that one other noble that you need to get ahold of just doesn't seem to overlap with your login times. Plus, delivering letters is a good task for an aide type, and a fun roleplay opportunity.

When I've played a bard I've really wished that Poets' Circle had an actual trove of written music to learn from. There's supposed to be a sense of history there and the opportunity to learn the lore that's been handed down but it doesn't much happen, because there's little continuity amongst PC bards and the documentation support isn't there. If bards had literacy and could leave behind (in a special bardic library) letters that contained the words to songs/poems/plays, plus notations about cadence and whatnot, that would be so helpful. Sure, yes, there's supposed to be an oral history and that would be ideal, but the actual reality of the game doesn't work like that.

IIRC, a riot began in Tuluk after a book made its rounds in the Nobility, started by a certain Dasari Noble. That is from a single book, being shown to people who could read, and word of its contents being repeated from mouth to ear. Imagine what might happen if people could read pamphlets, graffiti, etc. Conversely, the ONLY thing I could see as being a big benefit for wide-spread literacy is state propaganda, especially in Tuluk.

I'm not sure if you mean the thing that happened with my noble PC, Madelena? Although the riot did sort of involve a written document, it actually happened because she read it out loud in front of the Sanctuary, and then got arrested. Heh.

Side note about graffiti: I always thought it would be neat if people would use the scribble command more to make graffiti stuff. Sure, scribbles don't last forever, but placed in the right spot you could really make a point to someone, with just "images." (Graffiti was a big thing in the ancient Roman Empire.)

I bet the fact that you've been accepted as a merchant family member before has a lot to do with you liking it.

Have you tried applying for a GMH family member role? If not, you should. You might love it!

[Reiloth]

Hell to the Yes, with the graffiti bit. And i've seen it used exactly that way, especially in the Labyrinth/around the Labyrinth. It'd be nice if the scribble code weren't as...Mushy.

[Reiloth]

IIRC, a riot began in Tuluk after a book made its rounds in the Nobility, started by a certain Dasari Noble. That is from a single book, being shown to people who could read, and word of its contents being repeated from mouth to ear. Imagine what might happen if people could read pamphlets, graffiti, etc. Conversely, the ONLY thing I could see as being a big benefit for wide-spread literacy is state propaganda, especially in Tuluk.

I'm not sure if you mean the thing that happened with my noble PC, Madelena? Although the riot did sort of involve a written document, it actually happened because she read it out loud in front of the Sanctuary, and then got arrested. Heh.

DETAILS, GIMF. But yes, that still aligns with my point of view. Such a riot might have been catastrophic in the long run if copies of that document could be printed in the thousands and slipped under people's door, or glued up throughout the city. Something akin to the French Revolution might have occurred (though it would have likely been a much more bloody whiplash from the Government). But a literate public is a scary public. They want things like 'rights' and 'emancipation' and 'civil service' and 'freedom of religion' and 'accountability' and 'unions'. They can share their seditious ideas with each other easily, in comparison to the difficult transmission of oral tradition, and the game of telephone that occurs there.

[Gimfalisette]

You're right, that sounds terrible AWESOME. (Mostly the bloody riots.)

On another note, I once managed to lock myself in a room using the scribble code. FYI, people, if you're planning to scribble something inside a room, I recommend not using the keyword "door" within the scribble text itself.

[Nyr]

I see. Glad you like the system as is. I bet the fact that you've been accepted as a merchant family member before has a lot to do with you liking it.

You can also obtain this IC, now, by attaining sufficient rank and such in-game (likely lifesworn and the like) as part of one of these GMH organizations.  It does take a while, but it is possible to do so without having to duct-tape a GMH family member to a chair and force them to teach you. 

I guess the rest of the merchants should be as happy as you are with the system despite never having interacted with it in any meaningful way.

While you have seen literate merchants read a book only once in your seven years of play, I've seen dozens read lots of things and write tons of stuff--some of it irrelevant, some of it not.  Each generation of GMH family or noble family tends to build on the previous generation.

[ShaLeah]

I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

Not at all for this.

[Reiloth]

I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

Not at all for this.

?

[RogueGunslinger]

I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

Not at all for this.

?

She's agreeing with you. (I think)

[HavokBlue]

Encountering more literate characters, underground or otherwise, would be pretty neat.

That said, there are roles in-game that anyone can obtain regardless of experience, using a zero karma PC, that lead to literacy.

[MeTekillot]

Reiloth is right. I, for one, also support playing a game that strictly adheres to real-world situations, schools of thought, and laws of physics.

[MeTekillot]

And by that I mean just because something wouldn't make sense from a realistic perspective doesn't mean it wouldn't add interesting aspects to the game if it were put in.

[Is Friday]

I don't feel like it fits within the game world docs.

[Desertman]

The solution: make literacy available to PCs via extended subguild options - but also make it illegal in most circumstances to possess.

Just like magick, and in the south, spice.

Never thought of it that way. It would be pretty much just as illegal as magick.

Nice comparison. I like it.

I support this.

[Reiloth]

And by that I mean just because something wouldn't make sense from a realistic perspective doesn't mean it wouldn't add interesting aspects to the game if it were put in.

Sure, it's the age old 'realism vs playability' and 'playability vs realism'. Honestly I don't see what playability Literacy contributes behind the circle-jerk "I did it" moment where you read something someone else wrote. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic moment, but breaking the realism of the entire MUD in order to provide circumstantially small orgasms doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

[Harmless]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

I still want a substantial change. I still dislike the current setup. I find it stifling and bland. I find it unrealistically restrictive. I don't think literacy is a big enough deal to be less available than magick. I think it should be a karma option to at least have a head start to a chance at reading. It's a change that I think would add a lot to the game.

I think the only circlejerking going on is here on the gdb. I don't think this change would add more circlejerk, but would add a lot more intrigue and create an interesting power shift. But what do I know. Having been literate ICly creates bias just as much as never having been literate, usually because I didn't feel like mudsexing nobility for years to get dat read skill. I also have missed out on apping some sponsored roles.

But in my years of playing the role of commoner with dedication, as I said, a book showed up once and a scroll once in my thirtyy or so PCs. Twelve or so players interacting with something is kind of a circlejerk. Thirty or so players isn't a circlejerk. It is a movement and a power draw. I like that much more, but I like my games to be rich with power shifts and chaos. I also love murder and corruption. I only see my side of this debate adding to those things I like. Reiloth's opinion to me is this: "you're not patient enough to undergo what I went through to see something in game then you don't deserve it." But I am far less interested in who deserves it. I only want to see it At All.

Maybe some code fixes to encourage nobility etc to use what they have more is the right change. Then they will be more likely to teach it as well. But maybe it won't and maybe we'll all agree there needs to be more access to it come five years from now. Maybe we will come to regret not just deciding on doing it sooner. Either way, I will still undergo the trials set before me, but with the expectation that my mortality will best me unless I get luckily accepted into a sponsored role, and sponsored roles to me feel like it's up to imms to decide if I "deserve" it. That is a less interesting system to me, overall.

[Is Friday]

.... and sponsored roles to me feel like it's up to imms to decide if I "deserve" it. That is a less interesting system to me, overall.

You must be new here.  

Hidden/privileged things in this game isn't bought with food stamps or "I want ice cream too" temper tantrums. We're not handing out welfare karma here. Either you rate the role and prove you can be trusted with it, or you figure out a way to earn it IG.

[Nyr]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

Karma isn't a requirement for being accepted for a sponsored role, actually.  And the first step to being accepted for a sponsored role that can write is to apply for one. Being advised to apply for one isn't the same as being told "I've got mine, go get your own."  Sometimes people are offering advice and suggestions because they are legitimately offering advice and suggestions--they aren't rubbing their experience in your face.

I think the only circlejerking going on is here on the gdb. I don't think this change would add more circlejerk, but would add a lot more intrigue and create an interesting power shift. But what do I know. Having been literate ICly creates bias just as much as never having been literate, usually because I didn't feel like mudsexing nobility for years to get dat read skill. I also have missed out on apping some sponsored roles.

You're deliberately focusing on the negative for whatever reason.  The things that have been pointed out:

Full on literacy spreading into the game all over the place?  Probably not that realistic and would require a ton of consideration staff-side.  This will not happen overnight, if at all.
An extended subguild that grants literacy?  More in the realm of possibility, but it would still require some consideration and planning for what it would entail as far as expectations and karma requirements.  While it has promise, it is something that also would take a great deal of time for planning.

In the meantime:  there are three role types one can apply for that can attain literacy out the gate.  If you don't want to play any of these, that's fine, but it is your choice to avoid pursuit of that option.  There is also the possibility of entering a merchant house, rising in rank IC, and getting to a point at a lifesworn position that you could more than likely expect to become literate.  If you don't want to work on that, that's fine, but it is your choice to avoid pursuit of that option.  There are also the more difficult prospects of learning ICly in a much more dangerous fashion.  If you don't want to take that considerable risk in-game, that's fine, and understandable--but once more, this is your choice to avoid pursuit of that option.  Not choosing to pursue options that are available doesn't mean the options cease to exist.

But in my years of playing the role of commoner with dedication, as I said, a book showed up once and a scroll once in my thirtyy or so PCs. Twelve or so players interacting with something is kind of a circlejerk. Thirty or so players isn't a circlejerk. It is a movement and a power draw. I like that much more, but I like my games to be rich with power shifts and chaos. I also love murder and corruption. I only see my side of this debate adding to those things I like. Reiloth's opinion to me is this: "you're not patient enough to undergo what I went through to see something in game then you don't deserve it." But I am far less interested in who deserves it. I only want to see it At All.

Your anecdote about never coming across literate PCs being literate doesn't trump the reality of literate PCs being literate when you aren't around.  It's a pretty good example of confirmation bias.  The longer any one PC lives, the more likely it will run into someone actually utilizing literacy.  The more any one PC plays in a group where one person has the ability to read and write, the more likely it will be that they'll observe things like that.  The higher any PC rises in an organization, the more likely it would be that they get access to areas where these materials are stored.  So if you don't live long enough with a PC, you won't see it.  If you aren't in a clan, you might well stymy your chances quite a bit more--there's no real reason to expect you're going to see Joe Kadius writing erotic friend fiction at the Red's Retreat.  If you're a peon of House Borsail, it's not like they're going to take you around their vast library and show you the goods.

Maybe some code fixes to encourage nobility etc to use what they have more is the right change. Then they will be more likely to teach it as well. But maybe it won't and maybe we'll all agree there needs to be more access to it come five years from now. Maybe we will come to regret not just deciding on doing it sooner. Either way, I will still undergo the trials set before me, but with the expectation that my mortality will best me unless I get luckily accepted into a sponsored role, and sponsored roles to me feel like it's up to imms to decide if I "deserve" it. That is a less interesting system to me, overall.

I would recommend reviewing your own history with the request tool.  Look at the role applications you've done, then look at any feedback you've gotten.  You can also request feedback if you get rejected for a sponsored role, asking what you can work on.  There's a lot more power in your hands here to affect change than you're giving yourself credit for.

[Harmless]

Funny you say that, because special apps fly in the face of the "we don't hand out karma for free here" sentiment. And people report enjoying them.

[Nyr]

Funny you say that, because special apps fly in the face of the "we don't hand out karma for free here" sentiment. And people report enjoying them.

What is your point?  Just like with karma, special applications are determined by whether we think the player is trustworthy enough to handle it.  They are certainly not handed out for free.

[Desertman]

I paid $18 a piece for every karma point I have. If someone has been getting it for free....I'm going to be pretty pissed.

[Is Friday]

I paid $18 a piece for every karma point I have. If someone has been getting it for free....I'm going to be pretty pissed.



Also, only role I ever had that was literate was a non-karma assassin character who was a distant relatively/noble bastard.

I do support more widespread literacy.

It cost me at least 200 hours of circlejerking for each point of karma that I've been granted. Time is money.

[Desertman]

Also, only role I ever had that was literate was a non-karma assassin character who was a hidden literate pc that was a commoner/noble bastard mix. It is with everlasting shame that I admit he was basically Fitz Chivalry from the Farseer books. I even tried to name him Chivalry at first, and they wouldn't let me, and put in my notes that I read too many Farseer books.

If they will let a 15 year old retard like me (at the time) who wrote up a concept like that have literacy even after fixing my stupidity in my own app......I don't think this is as highly guarded as you think.

I do support more widespread literacy.

[williamson]

     One problem with the expansion of literacy in the game would be the loss of mystery of in-game secrets. Currently, your PC's death wipes all your gained IC knowledge out of the game. If lots of people had literacy, their death might leave behind books and scrolls with valuable knowledge. Over time, there would be more and more books containing more and more knowledge such as mysteries about crafting, spices, cures, poisons, or magick. The long term result would be a much easier time learning important game secrets. To me, this would be a turn for the worse for the game. There already a lot of ways to play characters that can read and write such as: 1) playing a templar; 2) playing a noble; 3) playing a GMH family member; and 4) joining a GMH and obtaining a high rank. On that list, the fourth requires no karma to achieve. In addition, I've seen two other characters learn to read and write through alternative means. This leaves a lot of options open for characters to learn to read and write. Unfortunately, none of it is particularly as easy as picking a subguild, but I don't think it should be. You can do it. It's just not going to be easy.

[Marauder Moe]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

If you actually respected the opinion of people who disagree with you, then you wouldn't be ranting and attributing selfish motivations to them.


Anyway, I'll chime in and say that adding a (karma-required extended) subguild for literacy without actually changing the IG legality of it is a fine idea.  I don't think it's a good enough tool for players to ever affect large-scale change in this regard, but if people want to play underground outlaw bookworms I'm OK with that.

[Desertman]

underground outlaw bookworms

[Beethoven]

Is this extended subguild going to be race-restricted or can I finally app the rebellious half-giant scholar I've always dreamed of playing?

[Cutthroat]

I agree with the idea of an extended subguild option for literacy, to keep it uncommon but still open up the possibility of playing an unusual role where a non-noble/GMH person is literate (e.g., an escaped slave that used to be a scribe). It seems like an elegant solution to the problem here and might be an occasional conflict-starter.

Edit to add: As to the notion of fairness/unfairness with regards to karma, sponsored/special roles, mango pops, etc., that is probably a topic for another thread.

[Beethoven]

In all seriousness, though, I think the ext. subguild thing could definitely work.

[Harmless]

     One problem with the expansion of literacy in the game would be the loss of mystery of in-game secrets. Currently, your PC's death wipes all your gained IC knowledge out of the game. If lots of people had literacy, their death might leave behind books and scrolls with valuable knowledge. Over time, there would be more and more books containing more and more knowledge such as mysteries about crafting, spices, cures, poisons, or magick. The long term result would be a much easier time learning important game secrets. To me, this would be a turn for the worse for the game. There already a lot of ways to play characters that can read and write such as: 1) playing a templar; 2) playing a noble; 3) playing a GMH family member; and 4) joining a GMH and obtaining a high rank. On that list, the fourth requires no karma to achieve. In addition, I've seen two other characters learn to read and write through alternative means. This leaves a lot of options open for characters to learn to read and write. Unfortunately, none of it is particularly as easy as picking a subguild, but I don't think it should be. You can do it. It's just not going to be easy.

i hate to break it to you, but secrets are spread person to person oocly. I don't see your point as a reason not to add more literacy at all.

Funny you say that, because special apps fly in the face of the "we don't hand out karma for free here" sentiment. And people report enjoying them.

What is your point?  Just like with karma, special applications are determined by whether we think the player is trustworthy enough to handle it.  They are certainly not handed out for free.

Special apps can be applied for at any time. Sponsored roles, no. I know and understand and appreciate the app system. Special apps don't allow for literacy but they do allow for magicker roles. I don't see the reason for this distinction.

[Desertman]

I've also applied for a sponsored role in the past, when it wasn't called for, and got it. *shrug*

The worst that can happen is you are told no.

[LauraMars]

    One problem with the expansion of literacy in the game would be the loss of mystery of in-game secrets. Currently, your PC's death wipes all your gained IC knowledge out of the game. If lots of people had literacy, their death might leave behind books and scrolls with valuable knowledge. Over time, there would be more and more books containing more and more knowledge such as mysteries about crafting, spices, cures, poisons, or magick. The long term result would be a much easier time learning important game secrets. To me, this would be a turn for the worse for the game. There already a lot of ways to play characters that can read and write such as: 1) playing a templar; 2) playing a noble; 3) playing a GMH family member; and 4) joining a GMH and obtaining a high rank. On that list, the fourth requires no karma to achieve. In addition, I've seen two other characters learn to read and write through alternative means. This leaves a lot of options open for characters to learn to read and write. Unfortunately, none of it is particularly as easy as picking a subguild, but I don't think it should be. You can do it. It's just not going to be easy.

All four of those roles require no karma to achieve.    

I disagree with your reasons for keeping literacy relegated to those four roles - people already leave behind "valuable books and scrolls" with IC knowledge in them, and people with literacy already read these scrolls. A few more people being literate (illegally) isn't going to cause the total collapse of all IC learning and discovery.  It will simply add another way for a few more lucky people to learn something in game. 

I think Moe's idea of a karma-required extended subguild with literacy is a good one, but...yeah, it should come with all the attendant risks that being literate as a commoner does now.  Since you currently need a special application to apply for an extended subguild anyway, staff will already be evaluating your trustworthiness to handle such a role, just as they would if you applied for a templar, noble, or gmh family member.

Anyway, I'm not married to the idea of expanded IG literacy.  I like it, but I'm sure there's higher priority projects that staff are working on right now that would add more to the game.

[Lizzie]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

Either you're not including me in your "I respect the opinion" or you didn't actually pay attention to my post, or any posts I've made with regards to anything involving the "realism" card. So I guess I'm excluded from your respect. Sucks to be me, I can live with it.

I don't do ANYTHING in Armageddon for realism. I do it for fun, fantasy, practicality, playability. Not having widespread literacy in Armageddon isn't my idea of fun OR fantasy. It would dilute the fun and fantasy.  You also didn't seem to grasp the point I was trying to make with my comment about having played a literate character. The point, was that the ONLY thing that was especially exciting about being literate, once I was finally allowed to play someone literate, was being able to read locked up books. Most of my interaction with other PCs was done "live" or over the way, and so being literate had very little practical use. The actual practical use my PC got out of it was incredibly sparse and limited. I wrote up a proposal for my character's house for the Senate meeting.

That's not something anyone with a subguild would ever have any reason to do. It IS something that someone with a sponsored role or an "earned rank" role would have reason to do.

I never had to send scrolls to minions, because I only hired minions who were available when I was available. I never had to send scrolls to other Houses, because there were always people in other Houses available to pass verbal messages. Any time I needed (and still need) to send messages to a house where there aren't any available PCs when I'm playing, I send a message through the staff of the game. So - no need for literacy there either.

There is nothing about literacy that would ADD to the game, that would equal or exceed the mystery and excitement of its current rarity.

If you want to play a literate character, app for the noble role in Allanak that was just posted, or wait for another literate character roll call, or play a non-sponsored, clanned person who rises to the rank in which he/she would earn the right to learn it.

If you're not willing to do any of the AVAILABLE things to get this skill you want, what makes you think anyone would be willing to grant you that skill even if it was implemented on a more widespread level?

[Harmless]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

Either you're not including me in your "I respect the opinion" or you didn't actually pay attention to my post, or any posts I've made with regards to anything involving the "realism" card. So I guess I'm excluded from your respect. Sucks to be me, I can live with it.

I don't do ANYTHING in Armageddon for realism. I do it for fun, fantasy, practicality, playability. Not having widespread literacy in Armageddon isn't my idea of fun OR fantasy. It would dilute the fun and fantasy.  You also didn't seem to grasp the point I was trying to make with my comment about having played a literate character. The point, was that the ONLY thing that was especially exciting about being literate, once I was finally allowed to play someone literate, was being able to read locked up books. Most of my interaction with other PCs was done "live" or over the way, and so being literate had very little practical use. The actual practical use my PC got out of it was incredibly sparse and limited. I wrote up a proposal for my character's house for the Senate meeting.

That's not something anyone with a subguild would ever have any reason to do. It IS something that someone with a sponsored role or an "earned rank" role would have reason to do.

I never had to send scrolls to minions, because I only hired minions who were available when I was available. I never had to send scrolls to other Houses, because there were always people in other Houses available to pass verbal messages. Any time I needed (and still need) to send messages to a house where there aren't any available PCs when I'm playing, I send a message through the staff of the game. So - no need for literacy there either.

There is nothing about literacy that would ADD to the game, that would equal or exceed the mystery and excitement of its current rarity.

If you want to play a literate character, app for the noble role in Allanak that was just posted, or wait for another literate character roll call, or play a non-sponsored, clanned person who rises to the rank in which he/she would earn the right to learn it.

If you're not willing to do any of the AVAILABLE things to get this skill you want, what makes you think anyone would be willing to grant you that skill even if it was implemented on a more widespread level?

You might be right Lizzie, but you are talking about your own experiences with literacy, which means how you used it. I can't be sure you're right for all players, even if you are right for yourself. What I am reading you saying here is "Literacy won't add to the game because it didn't significantly add to mine."

[Patuk]

Could anyone point me to an actual example of literacy being banned in the real world, please? Your arguments about realism and whatnot confuse me. And I'm talking full-blown literacy here, not the possession of specific texts.

[Nyr]

I can't (and won't) move partial posts to the other thread.  If you want to discuss literacy, discuss it here.  If you want to discuss special applications, discuss it in the other thread.  If you want to flame/troll/bait/whatever, expect to get banned.

Thread moderated, go about your business.

[Reiloth]

Let's see...With my weak wiki-fu...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_during_the_Slave_Period

"The fears of slave insurrections and the spread of abolitionist materials and ideology led to radical restrictions on gatherings, travel, and—of course—literacy. The ignorance of the slaves was considered necessary to the security of the slaveholders (Albanese, 1976). Not only did owners fear the spread of specifically abolitionist materials, they did not want slaves to question their authority; thus, reading and reflection were to be prevented at any cost."

I think that about sums it up.

[Patuk]

Those are slaves we're talking. Though you could argue that Zalanthan commoners aren't better off, the Zalanthan lower classes aren't the minority population that slaves were. They outnumber the privileged class by a 100-to-1 ratio easily.

[Reiloth]

Yes, well, they are also ruled by magick-wielding servants of omnipotent Sorcerer Kings. I wouldn't say that Commoners of Allanak or Tuluk have any more rights than slaves of any era.

Step out of line as a slave in the USA -- Likely to get beaten, if not killed.

Step out of line as a 'Commoner' in Allanak / Tuluk - Likely to get beaten, if not killed. Actually more probable you get killed.

People know not to step out of line, in either case, because it's not a good idea. It doesn't matter that they 'outnumber the privileged class 100-to-1' because that privileged class can roast their ass with a fireball.

[Patuk]

They do. They have the right to say 'fuck it' and leave as they please, also known as the Kurac option.

[Reiloth]

The Kurac Option doesn't spare you from fireball roasts if you step out of line in the omnipotent Sorcerer City State. Actually it probably kicks you to the front of the line. And also I would say the 'Kurac Option' is somewhat unique. You don't see lines of people pouring out of Allanak to go to Luir's because 'my civil rights are being oppressed'. Most people are sheep, and they will cow to the authority presented to them.

PCs are Above Average "HEROS", much in the same way they are in games like Dungeons and Dragons. They are meant to be exceptional, and I would say that the Kurac Option makes sense for PCs, but not vNPCs or NPCs.

[Rahnevyn]

With regard to the "literacy will encourage the spread of secrets" concern - it's worth noting that plenty of literate characters have already attempted to pass down secrets in game, and the future generations of their House have generally been wise enough to not spread that "House knowledge" that gives them an advantage. It's just one more example of Zalanthans doing whatever they can to get ahead.

For another thing, there's nothing that says such writings will always be correct. Literacy could also be an effective tool to spread misinformation about topics in the right hands.

Books that somehow expose truly game-breaking secrets (of which in my estimation there aren't that many) can always be taken out of circulation by staff and put into a Red Robe's private library, or something. If your PC is in a position to learn a secret that sensitive, and is also literate, then they'd probably be aware of the dangers of writing such things down anyway.

I would like to note that literacy was talked about in the recent Player-Staff Meeting, where we said that projects to expand literacy are on hold pending a revamp of the code in the game, which has some issues. This is a good debate, but it may be a better one to have if/when that project is completed.

[flurry]

I still want a substantial change. I still dislike the current setup. I find it stifling and bland. I find it unrealistically restrictive. I don't think literacy is a big enough deal to be less available than magick. I think it should be a karma option to at least have a head start to a chance at reading. It's a change that I think would add a lot to the game.

One important distinction between magick and literacy is the background of the character. When applying for a magicker, you really don't need much explanation as to why the character has that capability. On the other hand, literacy doesn't just happen, so there has to be a background that supports it, with the appropriate language, etc.. That also probably means your background is linked to either a noble or merchant House. So it makes sense that an application for a literate character would need to be a special app.

I'm okay with expanding literacy somewhat beyond what it is now, as long the changes develop with a sensible IC explanation.

[James de Monet]

Harmless, I'm kinda confused about what you think people are going to be writing that will be so earth shatteringly awesome.  Can it be done? Sure! But...if you have an idea for something earth shatteringly awesome, you can probably accomplish it just as well without literacy*, using things like word of mouth, stories, songs, the way, rumors, scribble, monuments, and all the other ways that people communicate non-literally.

*I want to note that simply because you can accomplish something without literacy is not, in and of itself, a reason to do so; my point is more about the fact that not having literacy is not really placing a cap on the awesome. It's people struggling for ideas that places a cap on the awesome. This is true for both literate and non-literate plots.  Also, if you want literacy that badly, have you considered just asking for it? I think that is what Nyr is trying to intimate to you about spec apps. Spec apps are for asking for things you couldn't otherwise have. Like roles. Or skills. Or races. Or items. Or...you know....anything.  Then, there's the request tool...

[Molten Heart]

It's kind of ironic that there have been more commoner sorcerers than there have been literate commoners.  One would think that literacy would be more common among the underclass than true magic would be.  Just saying... I want to play a literate sorcerer so I can document my misdeeds for posterity.  Actually, nevermind.  It'd just be a bunch of boring ramblings with no ending because I couldn't write how I got killed by a siltflyer or something.

[Rahnevyn]

It's kind of ironic that there have been more commoner sorcerers than there have been literate commoners.  One would think that literacy would be more common among the underclass than true magic would be.

It's not that ironic when you think about it.

Both literacy and sorcery are crimes punishable by death in both city-states.

The templarates of both cities Have Ways(tm) of discovering literate characters and sorcerers residing in their walls. It stands to reason these types of people are eventually killed or driven off if they remain in the cities.

Literacy is not a skill that will help your survival in the desert wastes much, so it's likely most literates who escape the city either die in the dunes or make it smaller outposts and villages where they'd still need to go into hiding for fear of the local authorities, bounties on their heads, and any Other Means(tm) that the templarates might use to hunt them.

Sorcery, on the other hand, gives you certain advantages that would probably help in such a survival scenario.

So I can see a legitimate argument being made that the number of fugitive sorcerers could be higher than fugitive literates, although it's probably a very small number anyway in both cases.

[Molten Heart]

It's kind of ironic that there have been more commoner sorcerers than there have been literate commoners.  One would think that literacy would be more common among the underclass than true magic would be.

It's not that ironic when you think about it.

Both literacy and sorcery are crimes punishable by death in both city-states.

The templarates of both cities Have Ways(tm) of discovering literate characters and sorcerers residing in their walls. It stands to reason these types of people are eventually killed or driven off if they remain in the cities.

Literacy is not a skill that will help your survival in the desert wastes much, so it's likely most literates who escape the city either die in the dunes or make it smaller outposts and villages where they'd still need to go into hiding for fear of the local authorities, bounties on their heads, and any Other Means(tm) that the templarates might use to hunt them.

Sorcery, on the other hand, gives you certain advantages that would probably help in such a survival scenario.

So I can see a legitimate argument being made that the number of fugitive sorcerers could be higher than fugitive literates, although it's probably a very small number anyway in both cases.

Just wanting to clear this up... So generally speaking, outlaw sorcerery (because "all" sorcerery is outlawed) is more common that outlaw literacy?

[Marauder Moe]

It probably depends.

Sorceror PCs are probably more common than illegally literate PCs.

Illegally literate people are probably way more common than sorcerors.

[Molten Heart]

It probably depends.

Sorceror PCs are probably more common than illegally literate PCs.

Illegally literate people are probably way more common than sorcerors.

This is kind of where I was coming from.

[Rahnevyn]

I guess what I mean is, in the population of people who commit crimes punishable by death, sorcerers probably have a better escape/survival rate than literates do, because they at least have skills that will help them evade capture and survive.

Don't take this as "official word" though, it's just my conjecture.

[Marauder Moe]

Oh.  Well, I don't think it's particularly ironic.  There have also probably been more sorceror PCs than Sath noble or employee PCs, bar waiter PCs, mul bondmate PCs, silt skimmer captain PCs, dung sweeper PCs, and Circle Rusarla PCs.

[Gimfalisette]

in the population of people who commit crimes punishable by death, sorcerers probably have a better escape/survival rate than literates do, because they at least have skills that will help them evade capture and survive.

The tall, muscular woman writes a plot hole.

Casually, the tall, muscular woman steps through a plot hole.

A plot hole closes.

[Molten Heart]

Oh.  Well, I don't think it's particularly ironic.  There have also probably been more sorceror PCs than Sath noble or employee PCs, bar waiter PCs, mul bondmate PCs, silt skimmer captain PCs, dung sweeper PCs, and Circle Rusarla PCs.

You're right those other roles are under represented too and should be played more.  Thankfully only a few of these options would require a special application.  If there were a streamlined way to create a literate character I bet they'd be more represented in the game world and only limited because people don't want to play them.

[Marauder Moe]

I suspect you're being sarcastic, but I would totally love to have a PC bondmate if I ever get to play a mul again.

Anyway, it's well established that the PC population is not a proportional cross-section of Zalanthan demographics.  Half-elves, half-giants, dwarves, magickers, nobles, aides, GMH, Byn, and yes, sorcerers are highly over-represented.  Meanwhile, slaves, common laborers, elves, true merchants, and many of the things I mentioned before are under-represented.

If you want to argue that this disproportionality is a problem, probably best take it to a different thread.  (Or better yet, search for previous threads on the topic.)

Until it's been established that it is a problem (it is not), though, I don't think the fact that sorcerers are more common than literate commoners is a particularly valid argument for more widespread literacy.  There's better arguments for it already made in this thread.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why this thread is still so hot.  We already have a staff answer: maybe, but not until after code revamps for writing are in place.  Seems a solid time to table the idea.

[Molten Heart]

I suspect you're being sarcastic, but I would totally love to have a PC bondmate if I ever get to play a mul again.

Anyway, it's well established that the PC population is not a proportional cross-section of Zalanthan demographics.  Half-elves, half-giants, dwarves, magickers, nobles, aides, GMH, Byn, and yes, sorcerers are highly over-represented.  Meanwhile, slaves, common laborers, elves, true merchants, and many of the things I mentioned before are under-represented.

If you want to argue that this disproportionality is a problem, probably best take it to a different thread.  (Or better yet, search for previous threads on the topic.)

Until it's been established that it is a problem (it is not), though, I don't think the fact that sorcerers are more common than literate commoners is a particularly valid argument for more widespread literacy.  There's better arguments for it already made in this thread.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure why this thread is still so hot.  We already have a staff answer: maybe, but not until after code revamps for writing are in place.  Seems a solid time to table the idea.

Yeah, sorry.  My response was a bit snarky and not to mention passive aggressive so I made some changes.

[Patuk]

What I am interested in is how literacy among elves and dwarves is spread. Neither have nobility inside the cities, and elves especially are a highly subversive lot.

[Patuk]

Also, I don't see literacy as something that would be illegal in Luir's, for a variety of reasons. It is probably a vnpc tanzimat haven.

[Gimfalisette]

I really doubt that the average VNPC commoner anywhere in the Known has any desire to be able to read or write. For one thing, there's nothing for them to read; libraries in general are very limited, even virtually. They just don't have thousands of volumes. And the majority of what is written is probably in a language that the average VNPC can't even speak (Cavilish). For another thing, the stuff that there is to read is really boring. ("Hey Amos, check out this latest issue of the Senate proceedings!")

[Patuk]

That is true for certain, yes. A bard regarding the tale of how Tektolnes beat the twelve league-tall giants beats the archive clause of Kadius' monthly Flame sales by a large degree.

[Erythil]

I know I can't use secret IC information, but my understanding is that the widespread ban on literacy is a historical event that happened at a specific time due to specific things, mentioned even on the history page.  These specific things are well enough in the past that I can see it making justifiable sense for the ban to be lessened at this time.

Personally, I would keep the current system where commoners who gain rank in Merchant Houses or start Merchant Houses learn Cavilish, but add to this by making it such that anyone who earns the very senior lifesworn rank of Advisor or similar as an aide should be taught writing.  If slaves can be trusted with writing, a lifetime employee of proven loyalty probably should, as well, and it would give a neat reward to aide positions which can often be a little dull.

[Harmless]

I know I can't use secret IC information, but my understanding is that the widespread ban on literacy is a historical event that happened at a specific time due to specific things, mentioned even on the history page.  These specific things are well enough in the past that I can see it making justifiable sense for the ban to be lessened at this time.

Personally, I would keep the current system where commoners who gain rank in Merchant Houses or start Merchant Houses learn Cavilish, but add to this by making it such that anyone who earns the very senior lifesworn rank of Advisor or similar as an aide should be taught writing.  If slaves can be trusted with writing, a lifetime employee of proven loyalty probably should, as well, and it would give a neat reward to aide positions which can often be a little dull.

Thanks so much for bumping my post with these thoughts! I still like the idea of expanding literacy in a limited fashion and I'm glad you found the thread to contribute to it, given that I know a few of your old PCs and what they achieved.

[jstorrie]

a key issue here is that Cavilish is not supposed to be particularly useful for non-business writing; it is, per documentation, not well-suited to writing general histories.

whether this limitation is respected by PCs who have RW Cavilish in-game I do not know. I've had RW Siri on PCs, but not RW Cav.

[Down Under]

I've always treated any sort of actual 'writing' in Cavilish that goes beyond business records as being some form of cipher or cryptography. It still shouldn't be incredibly verbose, but you can get some messages down.