Guild of records

[valeria]

As I understood it from the player/staff chat, the problem with widespread literacy right now is that the read/write database is crashing the game.

So let's not plan on having universal literacy until that gets fixed.

[solera]

While it doesn't change anything here, I understand that exchange of letters , either self written, or scribed, was widespread under the rule of the Roman Empire. (Not just for the elite.)

[QuillDipper]

Letters just aren't that necessary with the Way.

[Reiloth]

Yeah, exactly. Why would people need to write letters when they can instantly find someone's mind across the entire Known and 'instachat' them? It's kind of proven by the marked lack of federal funding for the Post in the USA, and the dwindling nature of 'snail mail' in our modern world. Imagine psionic way messages -- People might not even need cellular phones if that were the case.

I think what is accomplished most of all by literacy is the transmission of concepts, ideas, religions, science, mathematics, and knowledge. These esoteric consequences of literacy are what I believe Dictators (even non-omnipotent ones) have abhorred in the past (Book burning/banning, anyone?) Commoners would have no need for these esoteric concepts, at least from Tektolnes and Muk Utep's perspective, I imagine. With literacy comes a lack of control over large swaths of people, which is exactly what Templars and their Masters would not want.

IIRC, a riot began in Tuluk after a book made its rounds in the Nobility, started by a certain Dasari Noble. That is from a single book, being shown to people who could read, and word of its contents being repeated from mouth to ear. Imagine what might happen if people could read pamphlets, graffiti, etc. Conversely, the ONLY thing I could see as being a big benefit for wide-spread literacy is state propaganda, especially in Tuluk.

[Harmless]

I guess the point of this thread was never that commoner non merchants shouldn't have to read/write, but that merchants should be doing a LOT more of it realistically. Except I have seen literate merchants read a book exactly once in my seven years. I would think scrolls for them would have so many practical uses they'd be everywhere, were it not for state oppression.

"How do I make this special house order, senior merchant?"

"What, ya never seen a construction diagram? Thought you knew Cavilish, boy. Get your ass in the study and read about what you need yourself, I don't have time."

Basically I would love to see a guild where 30% of the members read once a month at least, 5% write that often, and the potential for covert plots around writing exist.

Crash considerations are real important too though. Oh well. Guess my dreams of a much more interesting merchant life aren't "reasonable" and so on. The cycle of assassins and thugs and so on will continue, but without at least the potential for more reading plots I will probably continue to stay away from merchants as I have been lately.

[Lizzie]

I've played a GMH "sponsored family member role" merchant. The most interesting part of being literate was reading all the old books in the estate's lock-box. I got involved in writing scrolls to send to nobility, templars, etc, but it was pretty limited since most of the RP was done "live" rather than "remote."

As for construction of stuff - there were no written construction documents for anything the Masons did. There were diagrams and drawings, but nothing written with any alphabet. If you need written directions to carve an ivory cat, then your character is likely not a crafter at all. Apprenticeship crafting doesn't involve reading manuals or instructions. So no, crafters have no need of literacy in order to do what they do. At best, they need to know how to sketch.

I like it as is. Keep it literate to the vast minority, allow for "exceptions to the rule" but keep the rule as tight as it is currently. I've played characters who would give their eye-teeth to learn to read. It's an awesome goal to have, now, because we know that the staff might actually allow for it to be added if you live long, have the opportunity to learn, practice, send logs, and generally roleplay with whoever is teaching you. It's been done before, so it's possible they'll do it again.

Diluting what is currently a niche ability, makes it less of a niche ability. The fact that it's incredibly rare is what makes it so interesting and compelling.  I'm not seeing how making it more easily accessible would add to the fun of the overall game playing. Any individual who wants the ability to read/write, can either respond to a sponsored role that involves literacy, or hope for an exception after a long time of IC progress and OOC log-sending.

I would like to see the writing skill re-implemented to be easier to use.

The OP claims that the "point" of the thread is that merchants who can already read/write, should use it more. You don't need to make more people able to read/write, for that to happen. Play a sponsored role, and use it more. Play a minion to a sponsored role, and help them come up with the idea to use it more.

"How do I make this special order?" Well - see this piece here? You attach it over there, use that screw - no not that one, the other one. Right. That size screw is always used for this kind of work. Now take a look at this finished piece I keep on display in the case here. See how the angles turn at that point? Right. Get that little widget there. Now turn it in the big red flat board. Not quite, you're getting it though. Work with the widget an five of those red boards if you need to, until you can do it properly. If you haven't done it right by then, stop workiing on that and make some more red boards for us."

That is how apprentices work with master crafters. They are taught, verbally and through demonstration and practice. They aren't given an instruction manual.

[Harmless]

I see. Glad you like the system as is. I bet the fact that you've been accepted as a merchant family member before has a lot to do with you liking it. I guess the rest of the merchants should be as happy as you are with the system despite never having interacted with it in any meaningful way.

I want the extended subguild as Delirium suggests. It would be literacy (novice) but would allow for learning to read in a more acceptable time period such as 1-3 IC years. The subguild represents a talent for learning to read and nothing else. I would roll a half dozen merchants with this subguild and even if one of them actually read a book I would be happy.

As it is now it is too daunting to be fun or interesting and I won't bother to pursue it. None of my PCs have ever lasted long enough.

[Gimfalisette]

Letters just aren't that necessary with the Way.

Actually, letters are pretty useful if that one other noble that you need to get ahold of just doesn't seem to overlap with your login times. Plus, delivering letters is a good task for an aide type, and a fun roleplay opportunity.

When I've played a bard I've really wished that Poets' Circle had an actual trove of written music to learn from. There's supposed to be a sense of history there and the opportunity to learn the lore that's been handed down but it doesn't much happen, because there's little continuity amongst PC bards and the documentation support isn't there. If bards had literacy and could leave behind (in a special bardic library) letters that contained the words to songs/poems/plays, plus notations about cadence and whatnot, that would be so helpful. Sure, yes, there's supposed to be an oral history and that would be ideal, but the actual reality of the game doesn't work like that.

IIRC, a riot began in Tuluk after a book made its rounds in the Nobility, started by a certain Dasari Noble. That is from a single book, being shown to people who could read, and word of its contents being repeated from mouth to ear. Imagine what might happen if people could read pamphlets, graffiti, etc. Conversely, the ONLY thing I could see as being a big benefit for wide-spread literacy is state propaganda, especially in Tuluk.

I'm not sure if you mean the thing that happened with my noble PC, Madelena? Although the riot did sort of involve a written document, it actually happened because she read it out loud in front of the Sanctuary, and then got arrested. Heh.

Side note about graffiti: I always thought it would be neat if people would use the scribble command more to make graffiti stuff. Sure, scribbles don't last forever, but placed in the right spot you could really make a point to someone, with just "images." (Graffiti was a big thing in the ancient Roman Empire.)

I bet the fact that you've been accepted as a merchant family member before has a lot to do with you liking it.

Have you tried applying for a GMH family member role? If not, you should. You might love it!

[Reiloth]

Hell to the Yes, with the graffiti bit. And i've seen it used exactly that way, especially in the Labyrinth/around the Labyrinth. It'd be nice if the scribble code weren't as...Mushy.

[Reiloth]

IIRC, a riot began in Tuluk after a book made its rounds in the Nobility, started by a certain Dasari Noble. That is from a single book, being shown to people who could read, and word of its contents being repeated from mouth to ear. Imagine what might happen if people could read pamphlets, graffiti, etc. Conversely, the ONLY thing I could see as being a big benefit for wide-spread literacy is state propaganda, especially in Tuluk.

I'm not sure if you mean the thing that happened with my noble PC, Madelena? Although the riot did sort of involve a written document, it actually happened because she read it out loud in front of the Sanctuary, and then got arrested. Heh.

DETAILS, GIMF. But yes, that still aligns with my point of view. Such a riot might have been catastrophic in the long run if copies of that document could be printed in the thousands and slipped under people's door, or glued up throughout the city. Something akin to the French Revolution might have occurred (though it would have likely been a much more bloody whiplash from the Government). But a literate public is a scary public. They want things like 'rights' and 'emancipation' and 'civil service' and 'freedom of religion' and 'accountability' and 'unions'. They can share their seditious ideas with each other easily, in comparison to the difficult transmission of oral tradition, and the game of telephone that occurs there.

[Gimfalisette]

You're right, that sounds terrible AWESOME. (Mostly the bloody riots.)

On another note, I once managed to lock myself in a room using the scribble code. FYI, people, if you're planning to scribble something inside a room, I recommend not using the keyword "door" within the scribble text itself.

[Nyr]

I see. Glad you like the system as is. I bet the fact that you've been accepted as a merchant family member before has a lot to do with you liking it.

You can also obtain this IC, now, by attaining sufficient rank and such in-game (likely lifesworn and the like) as part of one of these GMH organizations.  It does take a while, but it is possible to do so without having to duct-tape a GMH family member to a chair and force them to teach you. 

I guess the rest of the merchants should be as happy as you are with the system despite never having interacted with it in any meaningful way.

While you have seen literate merchants read a book only once in your seven years of play, I've seen dozens read lots of things and write tons of stuff--some of it irrelevant, some of it not.  Each generation of GMH family or noble family tends to build on the previous generation.

[ShaLeah]

I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

Not at all for this.

[Reiloth]

I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

Not at all for this.

?

[RogueGunslinger]

I just can't see why omnipotent sorcere kings who could see that shit happen would want commoners to read and write. Let's call it what it is -- an OOC desire for something not entirely reasonable IG.

Not at all for this.

?

She's agreeing with you. (I think)

[HavokBlue]

Encountering more literate characters, underground or otherwise, would be pretty neat.

That said, there are roles in-game that anyone can obtain regardless of experience, using a zero karma PC, that lead to literacy.

[MeTekillot]

Reiloth is right. I, for one, also support playing a game that strictly adheres to real-world situations, schools of thought, and laws of physics.

[MeTekillot]

And by that I mean just because something wouldn't make sense from a realistic perspective doesn't mean it wouldn't add interesting aspects to the game if it were put in.

[Is Friday]

I don't feel like it fits within the game world docs.

[Desertman]

The solution: make literacy available to PCs via extended subguild options - but also make it illegal in most circumstances to possess.

Just like magick, and in the south, spice.

Never thought of it that way. It would be pretty much just as illegal as magick.

Nice comparison. I like it.

I support this.

[Reiloth]

And by that I mean just because something wouldn't make sense from a realistic perspective doesn't mean it wouldn't add interesting aspects to the game if it were put in.

Sure, it's the age old 'realism vs playability' and 'playability vs realism'. Honestly I don't see what playability Literacy contributes behind the circle-jerk "I did it" moment where you read something someone else wrote. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic moment, but breaking the realism of the entire MUD in order to provide circumstantially small orgasms doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

[Harmless]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

I still want a substantial change. I still dislike the current setup. I find it stifling and bland. I find it unrealistically restrictive. I don't think literacy is a big enough deal to be less available than magick. I think it should be a karma option to at least have a head start to a chance at reading. It's a change that I think would add a lot to the game.

I think the only circlejerking going on is here on the gdb. I don't think this change would add more circlejerk, but would add a lot more intrigue and create an interesting power shift. But what do I know. Having been literate ICly creates bias just as much as never having been literate, usually because I didn't feel like mudsexing nobility for years to get dat read skill. I also have missed out on apping some sponsored roles.

But in my years of playing the role of commoner with dedication, as I said, a book showed up once and a scroll once in my thirtyy or so PCs. Twelve or so players interacting with something is kind of a circlejerk. Thirty or so players isn't a circlejerk. It is a movement and a power draw. I like that much more, but I like my games to be rich with power shifts and chaos. I also love murder and corruption. I only see my side of this debate adding to those things I like. Reiloth's opinion to me is this: "you're not patient enough to undergo what I went through to see something in game then you don't deserve it." But I am far less interested in who deserves it. I only want to see it At All.

Maybe some code fixes to encourage nobility etc to use what they have more is the right change. Then they will be more likely to teach it as well. But maybe it won't and maybe we'll all agree there needs to be more access to it come five years from now. Maybe we will come to regret not just deciding on doing it sooner. Either way, I will still undergo the trials set before me, but with the expectation that my mortality will best me unless I get luckily accepted into a sponsored role, and sponsored roles to me feel like it's up to imms to decide if I "deserve" it. That is a less interesting system to me, overall.

[Is Friday]

.... and sponsored roles to me feel like it's up to imms to decide if I "deserve" it. That is a less interesting system to me, overall.

You must be new here.  

Hidden/privileged things in this game isn't bought with food stamps or "I want ice cream too" temper tantrums. We're not handing out welfare karma here. Either you rate the role and prove you can be trusted with it, or you figure out a way to earn it IG.

[Nyr]

I respect the opinion of those who say don't create more options to have literacy due to realism. I also point out that many in this thread who share that opinion have actually either been literate before or likely have the karma and or track record of being accepted into sponsored roles.

Karma isn't a requirement for being accepted for a sponsored role, actually.  And the first step to being accepted for a sponsored role that can write is to apply for one. Being advised to apply for one isn't the same as being told "I've got mine, go get your own."  Sometimes people are offering advice and suggestions because they are legitimately offering advice and suggestions--they aren't rubbing their experience in your face.

I think the only circlejerking going on is here on the gdb. I don't think this change would add more circlejerk, but would add a lot more intrigue and create an interesting power shift. But what do I know. Having been literate ICly creates bias just as much as never having been literate, usually because I didn't feel like mudsexing nobility for years to get dat read skill. I also have missed out on apping some sponsored roles.

You're deliberately focusing on the negative for whatever reason.  The things that have been pointed out:

Full on literacy spreading into the game all over the place?  Probably not that realistic and would require a ton of consideration staff-side.  This will not happen overnight, if at all.
An extended subguild that grants literacy?  More in the realm of possibility, but it would still require some consideration and planning for what it would entail as far as expectations and karma requirements.  While it has promise, it is something that also would take a great deal of time for planning.

In the meantime:  there are three role types one can apply for that can attain literacy out the gate.  If you don't want to play any of these, that's fine, but it is your choice to avoid pursuit of that option.  There is also the possibility of entering a merchant house, rising in rank IC, and getting to a point at a lifesworn position that you could more than likely expect to become literate.  If you don't want to work on that, that's fine, but it is your choice to avoid pursuit of that option.  There are also the more difficult prospects of learning ICly in a much more dangerous fashion.  If you don't want to take that considerable risk in-game, that's fine, and understandable--but once more, this is your choice to avoid pursuit of that option.  Not choosing to pursue options that are available doesn't mean the options cease to exist.

But in my years of playing the role of commoner with dedication, as I said, a book showed up once and a scroll once in my thirtyy or so PCs. Twelve or so players interacting with something is kind of a circlejerk. Thirty or so players isn't a circlejerk. It is a movement and a power draw. I like that much more, but I like my games to be rich with power shifts and chaos. I also love murder and corruption. I only see my side of this debate adding to those things I like. Reiloth's opinion to me is this: "you're not patient enough to undergo what I went through to see something in game then you don't deserve it." But I am far less interested in who deserves it. I only want to see it At All.

Your anecdote about never coming across literate PCs being literate doesn't trump the reality of literate PCs being literate when you aren't around.  It's a pretty good example of confirmation bias.  The longer any one PC lives, the more likely it will run into someone actually utilizing literacy.  The more any one PC plays in a group where one person has the ability to read and write, the more likely it will be that they'll observe things like that.  The higher any PC rises in an organization, the more likely it would be that they get access to areas where these materials are stored.  So if you don't live long enough with a PC, you won't see it.  If you aren't in a clan, you might well stymy your chances quite a bit more--there's no real reason to expect you're going to see Joe Kadius writing erotic friend fiction at the Red's Retreat.  If you're a peon of House Borsail, it's not like they're going to take you around their vast library and show you the goods.

Maybe some code fixes to encourage nobility etc to use what they have more is the right change. Then they will be more likely to teach it as well. But maybe it won't and maybe we'll all agree there needs to be more access to it come five years from now. Maybe we will come to regret not just deciding on doing it sooner. Either way, I will still undergo the trials set before me, but with the expectation that my mortality will best me unless I get luckily accepted into a sponsored role, and sponsored roles to me feel like it's up to imms to decide if I "deserve" it. That is a less interesting system to me, overall.

I would recommend reviewing your own history with the request tool.  Look at the role applications you've done, then look at any feedback you've gotten.  You can also request feedback if you get rejected for a sponsored role, asking what you can work on.  There's a lot more power in your hands here to affect change than you're giving yourself credit for.

[Harmless]

Funny you say that, because special apps fly in the face of the "we don't hand out karma for free here" sentiment. And people report enjoying them.