Karma assessment.

[Harmless]

I still have some big fat fucking beefs with how karma gets handed out, for instance.

Staff rewards karma based on the helpfile here.  The sticking point that may exist is that staff rewards that karma based on staff assessment, not player self-assessment.

As long as the GDB is loaded with controversial topics, I want to designate my beefs and the facts related to them. Please feel free to elaborate or correct me on my facts, but I am trying to be accurate and honest.

Fact: In order to receive karma, a player has to be adequately assessed by staff for their qualifications to receive it by staff.

  --> Beef: Certain actions in game get more notice from staff and are more likely to be assessed for karma than others. Certain roles (especially those in staff-run clans) are more likely to get staff interaction. Certain races are more likely to get staff interaction (humans). Certain locations are more likely to get staff interaction (densely populated areas). Certain timezones are more likely to have staff interaction. Account notes are sparse for some players and may not be helpful in giving staff a good assessment of a player.

Fact: The mechanisms that staff interact with players are by observing them directly, reading their reports and bios, and through indrect interactions such as player kudos requests and complaints.

  --> Beef: Who is most likely to be directly observed by staff? The review command is questionable in improving the odds of this. Reports require having something to report; the response time is a large lag between when things happen and when staff get around to seeing it. Staff admit they often can't get to reading bios.

Overall beef: There are ways to maximize your chances of getting staff attention and to be adequately evaluated. A lot of the factors above are semi-controllable by players. The goal of the game is not to gain karma, I agree of course, but some players have favorable odds to get evaluated, and are more likely to gain karma. There are probably players out there who are able to admit privately that they know how to increase their odds of getting staff attention and interaction and have gotten more karma as a result.

Bottom line: Some players are deserving of karma out there who aren't going to be evaluated as being deserving because there are factors either they choose not to control, or are unable to control. I'm not even discussing bias or favoritism or friendships with staff. Those aren't worthy of discussion. The facts and beefs I brought up are, because I think they cause players to veer towards certain playing styles because getting karma feels good.

My proposal: Reverse the trend. Some staff can dedicate their time to evaluating the roleplay of players who go in the opposite trend as all of the above. Focus on nonhumans, independents, criminals, antisocial PCs. Encourage players who aren't in staff-run clans to submit reports for a while and try to follow their actions.

I think the greatest equalizer in all of this potentially are character reports and biography entries, which all players are allowed to submit. There are things about those systems that warrant attention, though... like that I can reliably calculate the time until a response to my report to be modified by whether or not my PC is murdering PCs, whether or not my PC is in a clan, and whether or not my PC is human or not. I have some data, I can crunch numbers later and see if these assumptions are correct.

I have to address a leaky faucet now but I will be happy to contribute to an open discussion on this later.

[James de Monet]

Can't you already set some kind of "please review me" flag if you want to be reviewed? I imagine that would work as well for indies as anybody else.  (Though the off-peak thing would still be limiting)

[BadSkeelz]

I think the greatest equalizer in all of this potentially are character reports and biography entries, which all players are allowed to submit. There are things about those systems that warrant attention, though... like that I can reliably calculate the time until a response to my report to be modified by whether or not my PC is murdering PCs, whether or not my PC is in a clan, and whether or not my PC is human or not. I have some data, I can crunch numbers later and see if these assumptions are correct.

Favoring biographies and character reports just tilts the "favor" towards those players who bother to do them. Some of us want to actually play the game, not set aside time to do homework about it. Personally reports and biographies are some of my least favorite parts of the game, even if I owe half of my karma to good communication.

Karma shouldn't be rewarded for how awesome a story your character lives, anyway. It should be rewarded based on how responsible you are in playing to the game docs. Being given karma is staff essentially trusting you not to blow shit up randomly with your new toy, but instead use it to bring the game world alive.

Playing off-peak or in isolated roles IS debilitating when it comes to catching staff attention (and therefore, karma). Improvement can be made there. I'm personally skeptical if someone who goes off and plays an iso role really needs or deserves karma (since they're probably just going to use it to better raid people), but staff should still remember to look and judge them.

Bottom line: mundanes 4 life

[palomar]

Special apping above your karma level is also a good way to get attention, regardless of what or when you play. If you still end up feeling neglected, you can always ask staff how to improve - and the replies will surely be along the lines of the karma criteria (leadership, longevity and so on).

[Harmless]

Special apping above your karma level is also a good way to get attention, regardless of what or when you play. If you still end up feeling neglected, you can always ask staff how to improve - and the replies will surely be along the lines of the karma criteria (leadership, longevity and so on).

Coincidentally (not really, obviously I'm posting this because I just had a discussion with staff about it), I just submitted a special app above my karma level. I've done it and backed out on it before, this time I intend to keep applying until I actually get a role.

faucet fixed.

[Cale_Knight]

If you want grease, be a squeaky wheel. Do bios, send in reports, play in clans that require more staff oversight. Not to long ago there was a role call for merchant family members, which is a GREAT first-time leadership role.

If these aren't things that interest you, then you may not get karma. Karma isn't a measurement of how good a player you are so much as it's a measurement of positive interactions with staff that engender a level of trust between them and you. The burden of proof is really on the player to provide that interaction.

[Nyr]

Fact: In order to receive karma, a player has to be adequately assessed by staff for their qualifications to receive it by staff.

  --> Beef: Certain actions in game get more notice from staff and are more likely to be assessed for karma than others. Certain roles (especially those in staff-run clans) are more likely to get staff interaction. Certain races are more likely to get staff interaction (humans). Certain locations are more likely to get staff interaction (densely populated areas). Certain timezones are more likely to have staff interaction. Account notes are sparse for some players and may not be helpful in giving staff a good assessment of a player.

All clans are staff-run clans.  Every player can file a character report, and every player has a staff team they report to.  Good play should net positive notice from staff.  Positive notice from staff doesn't necessitate karma every time.  If we feel you're doing well in an area you may well get karma for it.  The key point there is that it is staff that determines if you are doing well in an area, it is not a self-assessment of whether you are doing well in an area that determines this.

Fact: The mechanisms that staff interact with players are by observing them directly, reading their reports and bios, and through indrect interactions such as player kudos requests and complaints.

  --> Beef: Who is most likely to be directly observed by staff? The review command is questionable in improving the odds of this. Reports require having something to report; the response time is a large lag between when things happen and when staff get around to seeing it. Staff admit they often can't get to reading bios.

The review command is largely irrelevant as it existed prior to current staffing methods or even the concept of staffing teams.  Reports are at a bare minimum a place to introduce communication with staff, but they are also useful in measuring your own development with a role over time.  Response time is expected to be within at least 5 days for the first reply for character reports.  Bios are largely for player benefit but you may (and if desired, should) refer to them in your character reports.

Overall beef: There are ways to maximize your chances of getting staff attention and to be adequately evaluated. A lot of the factors above are semi-controllable by players. The goal of the game is not to gain karma, I agree of course, but some players have favorable odds to get evaluated, and are more likely to gain karma. There are probably players out there who are able to admit privately that they know how to increase their odds of getting staff attention and interaction and have gotten more karma as a result.

There are ways of maximizing your chances of getting staff attention.  Largely they involve communication with staff.  All of the factors are influenced by players.  The goal of the game is not to get karma, period, that is where the statement should end.  Play the game, ignore the karma, and note that most players will be around the 3 to 4 karma range per the helpfile, and you can special app in the meantime.

Bottom line: Some players are deserving of karma out there who aren't going to be evaluated as being deserving because there are factors either they choose not to control, or are unable to control. I'm not even discussing bias or favoritism or friendships with staff. Those aren't worthy of discussion. The facts and beefs I brought up are, because I think they cause players to veer towards certain playing styles because getting karma feels good.

Some players are also players that have already been evaluated properly by staff, they just think it should be higher or that their level of karma is incorrect.  You may file account notes requests.  If you do, your karma will be assessed at that time.  We can and do assess karma at other times.

My proposal: Reverse the trend. Some staff can dedicate their time to evaluating the roleplay of players who go in the opposite trend as all of the above. Focus on nonhumans, independents, criminals, antisocial PCs. Encourage players who aren't in staff-run clans to submit reports for a while and try to follow their actions.

I think the greatest equalizer in all of this potentially are character reports and biography entries, which all players are allowed to submit.

My response:  this isn't really a trend, and if it is, it's actually a trend in a positive direction, as we've standardized the methods for reviewing karma and have many areas to review it in. 

Additionally, probably 99% of the time, when staff are making the call to review someone's karma in an account notes request:

If we decide not to raise it during a karma assessment, the player disagrees with this.
If we dock someone's karma during a karma assessment, the player disagrees with this.

And:

If we raise someone's karma during a karma assessment, the player agrees with this.

It's the nature of a system that is governed by staff and not players.  This is how it will work.  In such a system the player is not necessarily destined to be the victor when they disagree with staff's assessment.

[Kol]

I honestly think if threads with Nyr in them had a GIF, it would be Nyr's signature. A Ginger dude confidently storming away from an explosion with satisfaction.


Harmless, I'm not sure how long you've been playing, however, when I first started, and I'm sure some of the players and staff who've been playing longer than I can confirm this, the karma system was incredibly biased, firstly, you had to specifically ask for a karma review, and it was up to the staffer who reviewed you, and their own ideas on what a good player should be. I remember plenty of threads railing about how people felt mistreated and angry at how a staff member they disliked had reviewed them, and not given them the karma they thought they deserved.

It's why the karma review list that Nyr linked was made and implemented, in point of fact, and why you rarely see such threads appear anymore. Most players I hope, would agree with the list. It's not an unfair list, it doesn't prejudice against one player over another. Overall, it's a equal system that covers what most players should be aiming to improve about their role-play anyway.


I recently asked for my account notes, with the specific intention of gaining karma. I did not gain the extra point of karma I hoped I would, however, Nyr told me how I can improve my chances, and pointed out where I was going wrong, as well as where I was going right. However, I want to share something from my account notes with you.

communication karma as previously noted not yet awarded, if they keep
reporting regularly can see this one in the near future. - 9/03/12

Yep. I could've had my 4th point of Karma two years ago, the last time I asked for my account notes. I'd like to point out the reason I haven't received this point yet is because I rarely communicate with staff, not because staff have overlooked me, or a certain staff member dislikes me, but because I generally, feel to lazy to report to them that I just took my hunter out to -redacted- and had an awesome time with Amos the 'gicker, who nearly killed me.

Your post to me reads like someone who didn't get the point of karma you feel you deserve. Do I think I deserve my 4th point of karma? Definitely. Am I butthurt I didn't get it? Yes, a little. However, I understand that the staff have been playing this game longer than I have, and as staff, have a better understanding of what I'm capable of doing as a player than I do for the most part.

Besides, Karma's like a job promotion, you're attracted by the cooler car, bigger wage packet, ect. And forget that in return, you get less of a life. Sooner or later, you'll be wishing instead of running the restaurant, you were the one flipping burgers.

[Harmless]

Thank you for your responses Nyr. I'm happy with them all and I will take note of your suggestions.

When staff review account notes:

-Do they review more than just your account notes? Do they look at old requests, in other words?
-Do they add new account notes at the time of reviewing (like, Oh, I remember this PC well, I'll add this note now and then compile and send to the player)?

Kol: I have seen the list ad nauseum and I agree with every component of it. What isn't on the list is the factors surrounding how often a player will be evaluated on those issues (asides from account notes).

Thanks also for being open about how much karma you have. As long as we're sharing those details, I have 1 karma.

[James de Monet]

How anyone has resisted this itch, I will never know...

After extensive review, it is the opinion of staff that the player's record should be revised to read: Mostly Harmless.

[Is Friday]

For your amusement and education.... Karma fluctuates based on a lot of stuff. I have a lot of colorful notes on my account.

My karma fluctuation:

Set karma to 1 -  9/03/07.
Set karma to 2, seems about due -  4/23/08.
Set karma to 0, Ignores clan documentation, fucks up special roles, gives paper-thin reports, leaves vital information out of any report that is given, and is generally a bad example for newbs. -  5/08/09.
Set karma to 1, Due to botched special role w/ Ueka, suicided and looked for new roles before even starting / telling clan staff -  6/08/08.
Set karma to 2, ACTUALLY, waiting to here a response on my email, since they have some positive notes, want to be sure this wasn't a misunderstanding -  6/08/08.
Set karma to 1, Granted back 1 karma, as they have earned this through positive comments -  5/22/09.
Set karma to 2, The player helped to guide conversation away from IC information during the oregon APM tele-chat on 3 occasions.  Please see my comments above on this date. -  8/10/09.
Set karma to 3, Took the restrictions and such of Kadian Junior Trader in great stride, and was very responsible about it. -  8/21/10.
Set karma to 4, as per notes -  1/29/12.

It took me a long time to go from 2 to 3, and a long time to go from 3 to 4. Here are some highlights:

When PCs are severely injured (at half hitpoints or less), will sleep off the coded damage wherever (s)he and is instantly back fighting.  Does not RP wounds at all. - 11/30/08
Thrice rejected PC "zerkie" when player was slightly changing sdesc and fishing for approval.  I hate to say it, but is 2 karma too much? - 3/05/09
I haven't noticed any overt skillgain push from this player on recent characters.  I do hope the trend has changed. - 8/10/09
As others do agree, this player is a superstar when they know they are being watched, but tend to slack and go for gain during the slow times.  Also common to suicide during boredom. - 8/10/09
Askes for karma review, decided they were fine at 3.  Last special app krathi killed a vivaduan in viv temple, want to see more responsibility before granting 4 points. - 6/12/11
Played a responsible and pretty competent sponsored AoD sergeant. Helpful and communicative. - 6/24/12
Masturbating in the barracks (r13337) - 7/06/09
Ex-AoD. Lyvren told Fatiha that she was a deserter and would like to see her killed. - 10/29/11
Sent to Red Storm on orders from Fatiha. Doing a good job of RPing being wary of the templar's motivations. - 10/29/11
Stonebraxat of the Al'Seik, going to great lengths to play superbly as per my Seik mage docs. - 1/27/12
Romantically beating up elves in the street with Byn Sergeant Rythe. Awww. How cute! - 6/16/12

[ShaLeah]

I just sent in for account notes and karma assessment since I haven't gotten since I've been back which hurts my feelings place. I should totally be at 12.

Seriously, criticism can sting but I think staff WANTS you to succeed, to grow as a roleplayer. We just have to be willing to take what they have to say and listen.

Also, THE best roleplay is at 0, class isn't significant at all. I've had characters that never pass novice. Ever. Best stories.


Annnnnnnnnnnd - Don't be like IF. Don't get docked. And turn the review flag on!  I don't have mine on.

[Zoan]

I'm sitting at 3 karma after several years of playing, essentially, because I haven't the time to give reports to staff about what I'm doing because I spend all day giving reports to management about what I'm doing.

If I don't show accountability for my actions at work, I get fired. If I don't show accountability for my actions in Armageddon, I get ignored.

[Zoan]

Also, to be fair, I play minor characters precisely because I know I can't really inform staff about what I'm doing. So I don't mind; they always approve my spec-apps after alll!

[Beethoven]

I feel like any more karma than I have would probably require me to show some kind of leadership skills. I'm a terrible leader in real life, and I think it does translate IG. I start feeling an immense amount of pressure and stress if I start taking on a leadership position in any game, and it stops feeling fun for me, or even like a game at all. It starts feeling a lot like a test, and one that I'm constantly failing.

It's sort of funny, because the high-karma roles are generally isolated, but it makes sense that showing yourself capable of leadership roles would be among the best ways to show staff that you can be trusted.

I feel comfortable sitting where I am karma-wise. I'm pretty much surprised that staff ever gave me as much as I have. I get burnt out easily, have a history of storing often, and am known to take long breaks from the game. My RP "performance" varies wildly--sometimes I really can't get into a character, and he or she feels either incredibly two-dimensional or forced.

Then again, it seems that they can see that despite my flaws, I really do make an effort. So whenever I think that staff is giving me the short end of the stick, I remember that they've given me the benefit of the doubt in this regard.

[Norcal]

I'm sitting at 3 karma after several years of playing, essentially, because I haven't the time to give reports to staff about what I'm doing because I spend all day giving reports to management about what I'm doing.

If I don't show accountability for my actions at work, I get fired. If I don't show accountability for my actions in Armageddon, I get ignored.

I do not think that reports have to be lengthy. I reckon that staff prefer a brief report that shares important points. A couple years ago there was a thread about this. You can do them pretty quickly.

[Zoan]

I also forget absolutely everything I do by the time I go to give them one.

[Is Friday]

Annnnnnnnnnnd - Don't be like IF.

I'm pretty awesome, FYI.

[Harmless]

Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

So, the only recourse I have is that I should special app/role app my way into some kind of power, or try to be patient to achieve it from the ground up. Unfortunately, as staff have killed me twice before I could do it from the ground up, it appears I will have to special app it.

I looked over my old account notes. The only time I've ever gotten notes on my PCs were when they joined clans, which was Akai Sjir once and GMH otherwise. Otherwise, no notes at all.

So this thread basically confirmed all of my suspicions, if I take the recent players' postings into account. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

[Armaddict]

I have karma.

My account notes scare me.  A lot can be observed about you over the course of ten years.

Edited to actually contribute:

I'm pretty okay with karma as is, though I do acknowledge some of RGS's points.  They're valid.  They make sense.  I just...don't figure karma as something that anyone is entitled to, but rather a way of keeping things in balance.  More karma given out means more rare things played.  I think the special application process makes up for it pretty well, to the point that I almost wonder just how much we need the entire concept.

I'd much rather see everyone playing mundanes constantly, then have to put in some effort to play something more supernatural or powerful, complete with a plan of 'how does this contribute more to the Zalanthan scene than the other applications?'

[manipura]

Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

So, the only recourse I have is that I should special app/role app my way into some kind of power, or try to be patient to achieve it from the ground up. Unfortunately, as staff have killed me twice before I could do it from the ground up, it appears I will have to special app it.

I looked over my old account notes. The only time I've ever gotten notes on my PCs were when they joined clans, which was Akai Sjir once and GMH otherwise. Otherwise, no notes at all.

So this thread basically confirmed all of my suspicions, if I take the recent players' postings into account. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted.

[Reiloth]

I looked back over my karma, and most of it was by requesting/accepting a role, doing it justice, and getting a pat on the head when that PC died/stored.

As was stated earlier, I think of karma as an indicator with Staff about how much you can be trusted to not leak vital information / OOCly communicate with other players, and to also be a all around good player/RPer/stick to documentation.

I gave away my karma at one point (mundane fury), and got it back and fiddled around with magickers. They aren't my forte, and I find myself gravitating towards mundane, political/soldier roles. I do appreciate the extended sub guilds, which give more options to the not-so-magick-hot players, and look forward to it being automated with karma in mind.

[Is Friday]

All of my karma has been granted because I'm really really ridiculously good looking.

[TheWanderer]

I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted.

So... you've played over a hundred characters and you've only had, like, one or two in a clan? Dayum.

[Reiloth]

Did you let yourself go, and that's why Staff docked you? heh.