Armageddon General Discussion Board

Quote from: Nyr on July 28, 2014, 05:32:19 PM

Quote from: Harmless on July 28, 2014, 02:10:17 PMI still have some big fat fucking beefs with how karma gets handed out, for instance.

Staff rewards karma based on the helpfile here (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Karma).  The sticking point that may exist is that staff rewards that karma based on staff assessment, not player self-assessment.

As long as the GDB is loaded with controversial topics, I want to designate my beefs and the facts related to them. Please feel free to elaborate or correct me on my facts, but I am trying to be accurate and honest.

Fact: In order to receive karma, a player has to be adequately assessed by staff for their qualifications to receive it by staff.

  --> Beef: Certain actions in game get more notice from staff and are more likely to be assessed for karma than others. Certain roles (especially those in staff-run clans) are more likely to get staff interaction. Certain races are more likely to get staff interaction (humans). Certain locations are more likely to get staff interaction (densely populated areas). Certain timezones are more likely to have staff interaction. Account notes are sparse for some players and may not be helpful in giving staff a good assessment of a player.

Fact: The mechanisms that staff interact with players are by observing them directly, reading their reports and bios, and through indrect interactions such as player kudos requests and complaints.

  --> Beef: Who is most likely to be directly observed by staff? The review command is questionable in improving the odds of this. Reports require having something to report; the response time is a large lag between when things happen and when staff get around to seeing it. Staff admit they often can't get to reading bios.

Overall beef: There are ways to maximize your chances of getting staff attention and to be adequately evaluated. A lot of the factors above are semi-controllable by players. The goal of the game is not to gain karma, I agree of course, but some players have favorable odds to get evaluated, and are more likely to gain karma. There are probably players out there who are able to admit privately that they know how to increase their odds of getting staff attention and interaction and have gotten more karma as a result.

Bottom line: Some players are deserving of karma out there who aren't going to be evaluated as being deserving because there are factors either they choose not to control, or are unable to control. I'm not even discussing bias or favoritism or friendships with staff. Those aren't worthy of discussion. The facts and beefs I brought up are, because I think they cause players to veer towards certain playing styles because getting karma feels good.

My proposal: Reverse the trend. Some staff can dedicate their time to evaluating the roleplay of players who go in the opposite trend as all of the above. Focus on nonhumans, independents, criminals, antisocial PCs. Encourage players who aren't in staff-run clans to submit reports for a while and try to follow their actions.

I think the greatest equalizer in all of this potentially are character reports and biography entries, which all players are allowed to submit. There are things about those systems that warrant attention, though... like that I can reliably calculate the time until a response to my report to be modified by whether or not my PC is murdering PCs, whether or not my PC is in a clan, and whether or not my PC is human or not. I have some data, I can crunch numbers later and see if these assumptions are correct.

I have to address a leaky faucet now but I will be happy to contribute to an open discussion on this later.

Can't you already set some kind of "please review me" flag if you want to be reviewed? I imagine that would work as well for indies as anybody else.  (Though the off-peak thing would still be limiting)

Quote from: Harmless on July 28, 2014, 06:56:49 PM
I think the greatest equalizer in all of this potentially are character reports and biography entries, which all players are allowed to submit. There are things about those systems that warrant attention, though... like that I can reliably calculate the time until a response to my report to be modified by whether or not my PC is murdering PCs, whether or not my PC is in a clan, and whether or not my PC is human or not. I have some data, I can crunch numbers later and see if these assumptions are correct.

Favoring biographies and character reports just tilts the "favor" towards those players who bother to do them. Some of us want to actually play the game, not set aside time to do homework about it. Personally reports and biographies are some of my least favorite parts of the game, even if I owe half of my karma to good communication.

Karma shouldn't be rewarded for how awesome a story your character lives, anyway. It should be rewarded based on how responsible you are in playing to the game docs. Being given karma is staff essentially trusting you not to blow shit up randomly with your new toy, but instead use it to bring the game world alive.

Playing off-peak or in isolated roles IS debilitating when it comes to catching staff attention (and therefore, karma). Improvement can be made there. I'm personally skeptical if someone who goes off and plays an iso role really needs or deserves karma (since they're probably just going to use it to better raid people), but staff should still remember to look and judge them.

Bottom line: mundanes 4 life

Special apping above your karma level is also a good way to get attention, regardless of what or when you play. If you still end up feeling neglected, you can always ask staff how to improve - and the replies will surely be along the lines of the karma criteria (leadership, longevity and so on).

Quote from: palomar on July 28, 2014, 07:36:26 PM
Special apping above your karma level is also a good way to get attention, regardless of what or when you play. If you still end up feeling neglected, you can always ask staff how to improve - and the replies will surely be along the lines of the karma criteria (leadership, longevity and so on).

Coincidentally (not really, obviously I'm posting this because I just had a discussion with staff about it), I just submitted a special app above my karma level. I've done it and backed out on it before, this time I intend to keep applying until I actually get a role.

faucet fixed.

If you want grease, be a squeaky wheel. Do bios, send in reports, play in clans that require more staff oversight. Not to long ago there was a role call for merchant family members, which is a GREAT first-time leadership role.

If these aren't things that interest you, then you may not get karma. Karma isn't a measurement of how good a player you are so much as it's a measurement of positive interactions with staff that engender a level of trust between them and you. The burden of proof is really on the player to provide that interaction.

Quote from: Harmless on July 28, 2014, 06:56:49 PM
Fact: In order to receive karma, a player has to be adequately assessed by staff for their qualifications to receive it by staff.

  --> Beef: Certain actions in game get more notice from staff and are more likely to be assessed for karma than others. Certain roles (especially those in staff-run clans) are more likely to get staff interaction. Certain races are more likely to get staff interaction (humans). Certain locations are more likely to get staff interaction (densely populated areas). Certain timezones are more likely to have staff interaction. Account notes are sparse for some players and may not be helpful in giving staff a good assessment of a player.

All clans are staff-run clans.  Every player can file a character report, and every player has a staff team they report to.  Good play should net positive notice from staff.  Positive notice from staff doesn't necessitate karma every time.  If we feel you're doing well in an area you may well get karma for it.  The key point there is that it is staff that determines if you are doing well in an area, it is not a self-assessment of whether you are doing well in an area that determines this.

Quote
Fact: The mechanisms that staff interact with players are by observing them directly, reading their reports and bios, and through indrect interactions such as player kudos requests and complaints.

  --> Beef: Who is most likely to be directly observed by staff? The review command is questionable in improving the odds of this. Reports require having something to report; the response time is a large lag between when things happen and when staff get around to seeing it. Staff admit they often can't get to reading bios.

The review command is largely irrelevant as it existed prior to current staffing methods or even the concept of staffing teams.  Reports are at a bare minimum a place to introduce communication with staff, but they are also useful in measuring your own development with a role over time.  Response time is expected to be within at least 5 days for the first reply for character reports.  Bios are largely for player benefit but you may (and if desired, should) refer to them in your character reports.

Quote
Overall beef: There are ways to maximize your chances of getting staff attention and to be adequately evaluated. A lot of the factors above are semi-controllable by players. The goal of the game is not to gain karma, I agree of course, but some players have favorable odds to get evaluated, and are more likely to gain karma. There are probably players out there who are able to admit privately that they know how to increase their odds of getting staff attention and interaction and have gotten more karma as a result.

There are ways of maximizing your chances of getting staff attention.  Largely they involve communication with staff.  All of the factors are influenced by players.  The goal of the game is not to get karma, period, that is where the statement should end.  Play the game, ignore the karma, and note that most players will be around the 3 to 4 karma range per the helpfile, and you can special app in the meantime.

Quote
Bottom line: Some players are deserving of karma out there who aren't going to be evaluated as being deserving because there are factors either they choose not to control, or are unable to control. I'm not even discussing bias or favoritism or friendships with staff. Those aren't worthy of discussion. The facts and beefs I brought up are, because I think they cause players to veer towards certain playing styles because getting karma feels good.

Some players are also players that have already been evaluated properly by staff, they just think it should be higher or that their level of karma is incorrect.  You may file account notes requests.  If you do, your karma will be assessed at that time.  We can and do assess karma at other times.

Quote
My proposal: Reverse the trend. Some staff can dedicate their time to evaluating the roleplay of players who go in the opposite trend as all of the above. Focus on nonhumans, independents, criminals, antisocial PCs. Encourage players who aren't in staff-run clans to submit reports for a while and try to follow their actions.

I think the greatest equalizer in all of this potentially are character reports and biography entries, which all players are allowed to submit.

My response:  this isn't really a trend, and if it is, it's actually a trend in a positive direction, as we've standardized the methods for reviewing karma and have many areas to review it in. 

Additionally, probably 99% of the time, when staff are making the call to review someone's karma in an account notes request:

If we decide not to raise it during a karma assessment, the player disagrees with this.
If we dock someone's karma during a karma assessment, the player disagrees with this.

And:

If we raise someone's karma during a karma assessment, the player agrees with this.

It's the nature of a system that is governed by staff and not players.  This is how it will work.  In such a system the player is not necessarily destined to be the victor when they disagree with staff's assessment.

I honestly think if threads with Nyr in them had a GIF, it would be Nyr's signature. A Ginger dude confidently storming away from an explosion with satisfaction.


Harmless, I'm not sure how long you've been playing, however, when I first started, and I'm sure some of the players and staff who've been playing longer than I can confirm this, the karma system was incredibly biased, firstly, you had to specifically ask for a karma review, and it was up to the staffer who reviewed you, and their own ideas on what a good player should be. I remember plenty of threads railing about how people felt mistreated and angry at how a staff member they disliked had reviewed them, and not given them the karma they thought they deserved.

It's why the karma review list that Nyr linked was made and implemented, in point of fact, and why you rarely see such threads appear anymore. Most players I hope, would agree with the list. It's not an unfair list, it doesn't prejudice against one player over another. Overall, it's a equal system that covers what most players should be aiming to improve about their role-play anyway.


I recently asked for my account notes, with the specific intention of gaining karma. I did not gain the extra point of karma I hoped I would, however, Nyr told me how I can improve my chances, and pointed out where I was going wrong, as well as where I was going right. However, I want to share something from my account notes with you.

Quotecommunication karma as previously noted not yet awarded, if they keep
reporting regularly can see this one in the near future. - 9/03/12

Yep. I could've had my 4th point of Karma two years ago, the last time I asked for my account notes. I'd like to point out the reason I haven't received this point yet is because I rarely communicate with staff, not because staff have overlooked me, or a certain staff member dislikes me, but because I generally, feel to lazy to report to them that I just took my hunter out to -redacted- and had an awesome time with Amos the 'gicker, who nearly killed me.

Your post to me reads like someone who didn't get the point of karma you feel you deserve. Do I think I deserve my 4th point of karma? Definitely. Am I butthurt I didn't get it? Yes, a little. However, I understand that the staff have been playing this game longer than I have, and as staff, have a better understanding of what I'm capable of doing as a player than I do for the most part.

Besides, Karma's like a job promotion, you're attracted by the cooler car, bigger wage packet, ect. And forget that in return, you get less of a life. Sooner or later, you'll be wishing instead of running the restaurant, you were the one flipping burgers.

Thank you for your responses Nyr. I'm happy with them all and I will take note of your suggestions.

When staff review account notes:

-Do they review more than just your account notes? Do they look at old requests, in other words?
-Do they add new account notes at the time of reviewing (like, Oh, I remember this PC well, I'll add this note now and then compile and send to the player)?

Kol: I have seen the list ad nauseum and I agree with every component of it. What isn't on the list is the factors surrounding how often a player will be evaluated on those issues (asides from account notes).

Thanks also for being open about how much karma you have. As long as we're sharing those details, I have 1 karma.

How anyone has resisted this itch, I will never know...

QuoteAfter extensive review, it is the opinion of staff that the player's record should be revised to read: Mostly Harmless.

For your amusement and education.... Karma fluctuates based on a lot of stuff. I have a lot of colorful notes on my account.

My karma fluctuation:

QuoteSet karma to 1 -  9/03/07.
Set karma to 2, seems about due -  4/23/08.
Set karma to 0, Ignores clan documentation, fucks up special roles, gives paper-thin reports, leaves vital information out of any report that is given, and is generally a bad example for newbs. -  5/08/09.
Set karma to 1, Due to botched special role w/ Ueka, suicided and looked for new roles before even starting / telling clan staff -  6/08/08.
Set karma to 2, ACTUALLY, waiting to here a response on my email, since they have some positive notes, want to be sure this wasn't a misunderstanding -  6/08/08.
Set karma to 1, Granted back 1 karma, as they have earned this through positive comments -  5/22/09.
Set karma to 2, The player helped to guide conversation away from IC information during the oregon APM tele-chat on 3 occasions.  Please see my comments above on this date. -  8/10/09.
Set karma to 3, Took the restrictions and such of Kadian Junior Trader in great stride, and was very responsible about it. -  8/21/10.
Set karma to 4, as per notes -  1/29/12.

It took me a long time to go from 2 to 3, and a long time to go from 3 to 4. Here are some highlights:

QuoteWhen PCs are severely injured (at half hitpoints or less), will sleep off the coded damage wherever (s)he and is instantly back fighting.  Does not RP wounds at all. - 11/30/08
Thrice rejected PC "zerkie" when player was slightly changing sdesc and fishing for approval.  I hate to say it, but is 2 karma too much? - 3/05/09
I haven't noticed any overt skillgain push from this player on recent characters.  I do hope the trend has changed. - 8/10/09
As others do agree, this player is a superstar when they know they are being watched, but tend to slack and go for gain during the slow times.  Also common to suicide during boredom. - 8/10/09
Askes for karma review, decided they were fine at 3.  Last special app krathi killed a vivaduan in viv temple, want to see more responsibility before granting 4 points. - 6/12/11
Played a responsible and pretty competent sponsored AoD sergeant. Helpful and communicative. - 6/24/12
Masturbating in the barracks (r13337) - 7/06/09
Ex-AoD. Lyvren told Fatiha that she was a deserter and would like to see her killed. - 10/29/11
Sent to Red Storm on orders from Fatiha. Doing a good job of RPing being wary of the templar's motivations. - 10/29/11
Stonebraxat of the Al'Seik, going to great lengths to play superbly as per my Seik mage docs. - 1/27/12
Romantically beating up elves in the street with Byn Sergeant Rythe. Awww. How cute! - 6/16/12

I just sent in for account notes and karma assessment since I haven't gotten since I've been back which hurts my feelings place. I should totally be at 12.

Seriously, criticism can sting but I think staff WANTS you to succeed, to grow as a roleplayer. We just have to be willing to take what they have to say and listen.

Also, THE best roleplay is at 0, class isn't significant at all. I've had characters that never pass novice. Ever. Best stories.


Annnnnnnnnnnd - Don't be like IF. Don't get docked. And turn the review flag on!  I don't have mine on.

I'm sitting at 3 karma after several years of playing, essentially, because I haven't the time to give reports to staff about what I'm doing because I spend all day giving reports to management about what I'm doing.

If I don't show accountability for my actions at work, I get fired. If I don't show accountability for my actions in Armageddon, I get ignored. :P

Also, to be fair, I play minor characters precisely because I know I can't really inform staff about what I'm doing. So I don't mind; they always approve my spec-apps after alll!

I feel like any more karma than I have would probably require me to show some kind of leadership skills. I'm a terrible leader in real life, and I think it does translate IG. I start feeling an immense amount of pressure and stress if I start taking on a leadership position in any game, and it stops feeling fun for me, or even like a game at all. It starts feeling a lot like a test, and one that I'm constantly failing.

It's sort of funny, because the high-karma roles are generally isolated, but it makes sense that showing yourself capable of leadership roles would be among the best ways to show staff that you can be trusted.

I feel comfortable sitting where I am karma-wise. I'm pretty much surprised that staff ever gave me as much as I have. I get burnt out easily, have a history of storing often, and am known to take long breaks from the game. My RP "performance" varies wildly--sometimes I really can't get into a character, and he or she feels either incredibly two-dimensional or forced.

Then again, it seems that they can see that despite my flaws, I really do make an effort. So whenever I think that staff is giving me the short end of the stick, I remember that they've given me the benefit of the doubt in this regard.

Quote from: Zoan on July 28, 2014, 10:15:52 PM
I'm sitting at 3 karma after several years of playing, essentially, because I haven't the time to give reports to staff about what I'm doing because I spend all day giving reports to management about what I'm doing.

If I don't show accountability for my actions at work, I get fired. If I don't show accountability for my actions in Armageddon, I get ignored. :P

I do not think that reports have to be lengthy. I reckon that staff prefer a brief report that shares important points. A couple years ago there was a thread about this. You can do them pretty quickly.

I also forget absolutely everything I do by the time I go to give them one. :P

Quote from: ShaLeah on July 28, 2014, 10:04:34 PM
Annnnnnnnnnnd - Don't be like IF.

I'm pretty awesome, FYI.

Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

So, the only recourse I have is that I should special app/role app my way into some kind of power, or try to be patient to achieve it from the ground up. Unfortunately, as staff have killed me twice before I could do it from the ground up, it appears I will have to special app it.

I looked over my old account notes. The only time I've ever gotten notes on my PCs were when they joined clans, which was Akai Sjir once and GMH otherwise. Otherwise, no notes at all.

So this thread basically confirmed all of my suspicions, if I take the recent players' postings into account. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

I have karma.

My account notes scare me.  A lot can be observed about you over the course of ten years.

Edited to actually contribute:

I'm pretty okay with karma as is, though I do acknowledge some of RGS's points.  They're valid.  They make sense.  I just...don't figure karma as something that anyone is entitled to, but rather a way of keeping things in balance.  More karma given out means more rare things played.  I think the special application process makes up for it pretty well, to the point that I almost wonder just how much we need the entire concept.

I'd much rather see everyone playing mundanes constantly, then have to put in some effort to play something more supernatural or powerful, complete with a plan of 'how does this contribute more to the Zalanthan scene than the other applications?'

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 12:15:14 AM
Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

So, the only recourse I have is that I should special app/role app my way into some kind of power, or try to be patient to achieve it from the ground up. Unfortunately, as staff have killed me twice before I could do it from the ground up, it appears I will have to special app it.

I looked over my old account notes. The only time I've ever gotten notes on my PCs were when they joined clans, which was Akai Sjir once and GMH otherwise. Otherwise, no notes at all.

So this thread basically confirmed all of my suspicions, if I take the recent players' postings into account. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted. ;)

I looked back over my karma, and most of it was by requesting/accepting a role, doing it justice, and getting a pat on the head when that PC died/stored.

As was stated earlier, I think of karma as an indicator with Staff about how much you can be trusted to not leak vital information / OOCly communicate with other players, and to also be a all around good player/RPer/stick to documentation.

I gave away my karma at one point (mundane fury), and got it back and fiddled around with magickers. They aren't my forte, and I find myself gravitating towards mundane, political/soldier roles. I do appreciate the extended sub guilds, which give more options to the not-so-magick-hot players, and look forward to it being automated with karma in mind.

All of my karma has been granted because I'm really really ridiculously good looking.

Quote from: manipura on July 29, 2014, 01:05:26 AM
I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted. ;)

So... you've played over a hundred characters and you've only had, like, one or two in a clan? Dayum.

Did you let yourself go, and that's why Staff docked you? heh.

Quote from: Reiloth on July 29, 2014, 01:22:28 AM
Did you let yourself go, and that's why Staff docked you? heh.

I stopped posting selfies for a while. Big mistake.

Quote from: TheWanderer on July 29, 2014, 01:22:10 AM

Quote from: manipura on July 29, 2014, 01:05:26 AM
I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted. ;)

So... you've played over a hundred characters and you've only had, like, one or two in a clan? Dayum.

Maybe a touch more than 1%?  I'm a grammar-girl and a spelling-Nazi, not a math-whiz.  :P
However, yes...two clanned characters in ten or so years.

I don't know how much karma I have. I have enough.

If it were up to me, staff would have a quota of mage roles, gemmed mages would be more accepted in southern society, and karma would allow you to play non-magicker classes with more skills, and races. All mages would be spec app.

Quote from: manipura on July 29, 2014, 01:05:26 AM

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 12:15:14 AM
Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

So, the only recourse I have is that I should special app/role app my way into some kind of power, or try to be patient to achieve it from the ground up. Unfortunately, as staff have killed me twice before I could do it from the ground up, it appears I will have to special app it.

I looked over my old account notes. The only time I've ever gotten notes on my PCs were when they joined clans, which was Akai Sjir once and GMH otherwise. Otherwise, no notes at all.

So this thread basically confirmed all of my suspicions, if I take the recent players' postings into account. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted. ;)

Assumptions? It's what some people are saying in the thread.

Quote from: Beethoven on July 28, 2014, 10:20:40 PM
I feel like any more karma than I have would probably require me to show some kind of leadership skills.

...
It's sort of funny, because the high-karma roles are generally isolated, but it makes sense that showing yourself capable of leadership roles would be among the best ways to show staff that you can be trusted.

Quote from: Reiloth on July 29, 2014, 01:14:21 AM
I looked back over my karma, and most of it was by requesting/accepting a role, doing it justice, and getting a pat on the head when that PC died/stored.

So, the conclusion I came to was that there is a subset of players who do this and get karma... so far, I have not been in clans very often. It's maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 PCs. As I said, I have gotten some nice notes on those PCs, but only on those PCs. Since Karma assessment relies partly on account notes, I am putting two and two together and making an observation, not an assumption.

Quote from: Zoan on July 28, 2014, 10:20:26 PM
Also, to be fair, I play minor characters precisely because I know I can't really inform staff about what I'm doing. So I don't mind; they always approve my spec-apps after alll!

There are also people like you who aren't taking leadership roles and are getting karma. Also an observation, but I am not sure following Zoan's advice (or yours) is going to help me, whereas I think going for a role with power and responsibility might help me, since the point of the thread was the factor of "how often am I being seen and noticed by staff?" If nobody notices what I'm doing, then nobody can judge if I meet specific criteria that take data and observations to make a conclusion about: familiarity with the game setting, evidence that they handle magick well, etc etc.

Now, here is an assumption for you. I might assume that players like Zoan and Manipura are more charismatic in game than I am. Here's another assumption: I bet you and Zoan receive more kudos than I do. Are you going to share your anecdotal experience and prove me right or wrong on that?

Quote from: Sound AdviceIf you want Karma, play in a staff sponsored role. Join a NOBLE HOUSE... Why? Because they're the front lines of city plots. I bet if you special app'd an Oashi stone/water gicker and played well and were active you'd get a few points. Visible roles where you deal w. magick, clan hierarchy and get thrown into plots.... Roles I can't really play bc I'm off-peak and can disappear w. work.

Karma assessment works fine I think... Although it would be nice though if player kudos worked towards it a little.

I think it's a good system we have on one hand.  On the other, it's really strange to see how it's given out...  I got 2 karma (pre-new system) for my first real character that didn't do much.  Then I played the last mega d-elf raider in Arm for a year.  Was pro-active, followed docs, got loads of kudos, set up RPTs regularly, led and tried to do all the right things yet only got 1 karma... (which I lost on another PC for doing something stupid for lulz).

I once thought I could get karma if I played a gicker. Ppl said: "If you want Karma, play a magicker!" Sweet. So I did and found that I learned MORE about magick in the gameworld as a mundane... than as a gicker. The gicker just provided a difference perspective and let me learn about it more codedly... Regardless I didn't earn karma. :P

Just use special app's. That's the evener. Besides, it makes the game more fun once you stop giving a shit about / hoping for / imagining you deserve / playing for / karma.

Just wanted to say I have never had a problem with the Karma system personally. I have never met a max karma type yet that didn't have me in awe of their slick RP.

I have karma,  not much, but have never felt hard done by.

Quote from: Harmless on July 28, 2014, 09:14:14 PM
When staff review account notes:

-Do they review more than just your account notes? Do they look at old requests, in other words?

Absolutely.

Quote
-Do they add new account notes at the time of reviewing (like, Oh, I remember this PC well, I'll add this note now and then compile and send to the player)?

Sometimes yes.  Sometimes no.  It depends on whether there's something missing that should be there.

Quote
Kol: I have seen the list ad nauseum and I agree with every component of it. What isn't on the list is the factors surrounding how often a player will be evaluated on those issues (asides from account notes).

At our own discretion, pretty much.

I thought the karma system was a bit wonky before the change, and I appreciated that they decided to go with something a bit more... codified. I have some anecdotal experience to throw into the ring. I'm fairly certain that all of my karma was gained "pre-change", but I think my lack of new karma has less to do with the new policy and more to do with my severe lack of actually playing. And when I do play I'm either 1) terribly obscure, or 2) completely and utterly pissing away dream roles. I definitely feel like I've destroyed some staff goodwill by my constant quitting. What I'm thinking is that old, pre-change karma is somewhat sticky, as I would expect some of mine to be gone due to completely failing at IG leadership, role follow-through, etc. So maybe you don't get your account scanned periodically, you only get noticed when you submit a request for notes, be very visible IG, or fuck things up horribly. I've just been in the "meh" range for the past few years.

I got my first karma point after my first character died. My first character was a fairly long-lived Bynner who became a sergeant and was involved in some plotz. I was also in regular communication with my staffers before everybody got all hardcore about reports. This strikes me as one of those definite cases of being the "squeaky wheel"--I was right up in the imms' faces during that first PC.

I then played in obscurity for a while, doing a couple of independents. I got my second, third, and fourth karma points in seemingly one bundle sometime while I was playing my fourth character, an independent 'Rinthi hoodlum. He was definitely one of my better characters, and though I don't really remember reporting to staff (and I wasn't part of any clan of any sort), I do remember receiving a positive note about my role-play and general ability to "keep it real" in ICly dangerous situations. I'm no twink, and the only thing that edges me toward power-gamey-ness is when I'm playing a magicker who doesn't have jack shit else to do. I don't know if my points were from imms observing a trend or from some staffers happening to see me "winning" at Armageddon with that PC.

I then played a fairly powerful, long-lived whiran. With this character, I remember being fairly on top of my bios and reports. As I recall, most of his staff/staff plot-related action was primarily as an independent-ish character. I tried to play the ever-loving fuck out of this character, and I remember generally receiving positive feedback in my reports to staffers. But no more karma points, even though I was playing my first truly codedly powerful character. I figure that I was either overlooked, unknowingly participated in some cheese, or they figured I was good at that level and never bothered to say so because I've never asked for karma before (I don't even have my review flag on). Perhaps there's some conservatism at play in handing out karma in general, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I received my fifth and sixth karma over the course of playing a certain sponsored Byn sergeant-cum-lieutenant. That was without a doubt my most visible role of any serious length of time or consequence, and I was right up in staff's grill the entire time. I think this was the time I received most of my semi-detailed notes, all positive (I don't actually have many account notes at all, from what I remember). So at that time I was very active, very visible, and absolutely loving my character and the characters around him. I was also communicating with staff very frequently. I don't think it hurt that I was provided with ample opportunity again and again to demonstrate my OOC knowledge of the game and trustworthiness. I felt like I had a really good "working relationship" with the staffers while not knowing any of them OOCly. Though I was fairly active in the community on the GDB, I only talked to a very small handful of players outside of the game, and it was generally not about the game. I mention this because 1) I don't think OOC playerbase popularity had anything to do with my good feedback and karma, and 2) I had a good relationship with staff that was purely imm-player, and not some odd, nefarious string-pulling or what have you.

A while after that character got burninated, I was invited onto staff. It was a very cool experience, but I didn't stick around for long. I bring it up now because my karma points have remained at six for all of the years since. That's not a complaint, as I feel fine where I'm at. But if you want a resounding "you seem okay and trustworthy" from the staff, getting invited onto staff is pretty much the best you can get. But I didn't get eight karma on my old player account, and I wasn't raised to eight after my time on staff had ended. Again, I didn't ask to be raised or for a review or anything in the years since. I think this comes back to "flying under the radar" as I outlined earlier, and a need to avoid power-creep when it comes to high karma roles. Why give out eight karma unless it's for an active, trustworthy player? Best way to limit the number of high karma classes is to just avoid giving away high karma points for any old reason.

I'm also bringing up my staff-land foray to be able to mention why I never gave out a karma point (or even recommended one, that I can remember) myself. I simply felt like any reason I would have to boost someone's karma would be insufficient, and I was afraid of seeming like I played favorites. I wasn't much of a "voyeur" when I was an imm, so I wasn't hanging around there watching people be epic 24/7. I generally dealt with reports and ran some animations for events and the like. I tended to keep my distance, so I couldn't justify raising karma or offering any other real boons. When I got a bit more involved with some of the clans I was helping to run, I tended toward some unconscious favoritism with my animations because I preferred jumping into some NPCs over others*. I have to wonder if some storytellers feel like that sometimes, too.

It became clear to me before long that I was a far better player than a staffer. Alas, now I'm not even that great of a player. At least I never rage-quit or got serious sour grapes about anything.

Anyway, the bottom line is that every single person who has had karma added or removed is going to have wildly different stories because some of us have been playing for years. It would be interesting if the somewhat-new player experience is markedly different than that of some of the vets who have already posted in this thread. Then again, this topic strikes me as a little salty for any noobs wanting to put their best foot forward in this community.  :P From my anecdotal experience, leadership roles + not being a twink + communicating in a friendly, professional manner to staff = karmas. I have not special-app'd a role ever, except to play a single skill-boosted mundane once that had opened up as an option. So I can't confirm nor deny that showing you're good with a spec app helps you get noticed. For additional reference, I've been playing since 2007.

* Not that my statements and actions as those animated NPCs were actually "favorable" for the PCs; they just tended to get more "face time" which is in itself a form of favoritism.

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 12:15:14 AM
Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

You may be misunderstanding what karma is.

Quote from: paraphrase from docKarma is a measure of staff's trust in a given player's:

  - Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
      by playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
    - Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which
      the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
    - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
      show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
      enriching the game world for other players.

It's a measure of trust.  Having "some good" doesn't outweigh "some bad".  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  If someone's a decent roleplayer (when they roleplay) but they have habitual problematic qualities, they aren't going to be the kind of person that we say, "you know what...this player that continually abuses the code totally deserves more karma," or "this player that explodes on the GDB every time their PCs die would absolutely love playing higher karma roles and doing the exact same thing with those!"  Needing tons of improvement in one area (your ability to roleplay and your communication, specifically, since those impact nearly every other area of the game) can typically stunt your karma.  Conversely, years after bad notes, players can and have shown major strides in improvement.

Maybe your only recourse isn't to app for stuff, but to review your account notes you already have, your past requests, and all other possible things that could portray you as a not so great player, and then improve those things....

...not because you are obsessed with getting karma (and quick point to note...it kinda looks like you are...) but because you want to be a better player.  Or at least because you want to pretend to be a better player.

The way you are approaching karma looks a lot like this old conversation.  I'll quote the original opinion and then responses intended for it.

Quote from: Majikal on September 12, 2011, 08:09:35 PM
My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.

Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.

Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.

This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?

Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 08:15:58 PM
Yes, there may be points of contention with this system.  But there are points of contention now.

As always awarding karma is at the discretion of staff.

I've no doubt that there will be a learning curve here for players and staff alike.  This may result in some changes to the system as we go.  Already today, due to player feedback we've adjusted the category names slightly, this is a good thing.  As we get the code in place and working we'll be able to give you a better idea of how exactly it will work, for now you have the blueprint we're working on.  When we have everything firmly in place the webpage will reflect exactly how the system will work.

Quote from: Adhira on September 12, 2011, 08:17:26 PM
Player view - Staff view.  There will likely always be a difference.

I used to want criticism, feedback, all that.

Then I spent 5 years in college, took on far too much anxiety and debt, and my playstyle got ... more subject to outside circumstances.  :-\ And in general I started reacting more poorly to criticism.

Now I don't even want to look at my account notes because there's been enough to displease me in how I've played, that I don't really want to deal with criticism from an external source, if I've attracted notice enough for that even. Getting karma / kudos / positive responses does make me happy, but critique hurts more than it should, and I'm liable to do the equivalent of never asking for a pay raise.

While usually not extremely isolated, I tend to only get deeply involved with a small number of people due to my own introversion, and rarely go for anything like power or leadership - but I haven't been completely ignored for karma and kudos even with a mildly antisocial playstyle.  :)

Meh. Nyr, I only care at all about karma once every year or two. Then I stop caring about it for months or years, depending. I have cared a little more about karma lately, of course, but is it my only concern? Not at all. Will it matter to me even in two weeks? Doubtful, because hopefully by then my special app will be looked at.

I don't often see karma discussions on the GDB, to be honest. I'm here on the GDB a lot, it's not at all like there's a karma discussion thread every day.

So, I brought it up, because it's that one time of the year where I give a shit... note, I -almost- gave a shit about karma a few months ago, submitted an account notes request, then later cancelled it because for a few more months I didn't give a shit about karma and I was enjoying the game as usual.

So, please, don't accuse me of only caring about karma... based on a thread i made now. I want to discuss something, and you're making assumptions about who I am as a player.

Man, not everything said is a big deal.

Anyway, there are three takeaways in summary from my requests and notes:

1.) Make less angry rants in my requests. Don't complain to staff in my requests. Keep requests straightforward and simple.
2.) Don't suicide characters I should store instead. (This comes from an old account note from about a year ago. I have followed that principle now for the past year)
3.) Be Civil on the GDB. I am sincerely trying.

Lessons that don't apply to me:

1.) Don't blow up on the GDB after a PC dies. That's only happened to me once, on my first PC, over 10 years ago.
2.) Don't abuse the code. I have never done this. I have filed many bug reports. I don't abuse bugs when I find them. There was even a time I was pretty sure I knew how to reliably crash the MUD, I never abused it, and I may have caused an exact total of 1 crash. As soon as I suspected there might be a way to crash the server, I reported it and even wished up to inform staff... yeah, as an amateur coder myself, abusing code isn't my thing.

I made assumptions based on the way you posted in this thread, here and now.  Which (as you say) is a time in which you are giving a shit about karma--so much so that you're detailing your beefs with the karma system (which are mostly that you don't feel you've been assessed properly), asking everyone how they got karma, then using those anecdotes to try and piece together what you should do to get karma.  Karma is not an end in itself.  Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player.

Right... well, anyway, I'm going to go back to not giving a shit about karma very soon, so don't worry.

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 02:33:59 AM

So, the conclusion I came to was that there is a subset of players who do this and get karma... so far, I have not been in clans very often. It's maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 PCs. As I said, I have gotten some nice notes on those PCs, but only on those PCs. Since Karma assessment relies partly on account notes, I am putting two and two together and making an observation, not an assumption.

Quote from: Zoan on July 28, 2014, 10:20:26 PM
Also, to be fair, I play minor characters precisely because I know I can't really inform staff about what I'm doing. So I don't mind; they always approve my spec-apps after alll!

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 02:33:59 AM
There are also people like you who aren't taking leadership roles and are getting karma. Also an observation, but I am not sure following Zoan's advice (or yours) is going to help me, whereas I think going for a role with power and responsibility might help me, since the point of the thread was the factor of "how often am I being seen and noticed by staff?" If nobody notices what I'm doing, then nobody can judge if I meet specific criteria that take data and observations to make a conclusion about: familiarity with the game setting, evidence that they handle magick well, etc etc.

Now, here is an assumption for you. I might assume that players like Zoan and Manipura are more charismatic in game than I am. Here's another assumption: I bet you and Zoan receive more kudos than I do. Are you going to share your anecdotal experience and prove me right or wrong on that?

Not sure how this will prove or disprove anything, but I've got a grand total of five kudos from players and one from staff.

Two of the five player kudos were for unclanned/non-leadership characters.  One of those went on eventually to join a clan, but the kudos came before that.
The other three player kudos were for a PC that was clanned and eventually took a leadership role (my one and only leadership role).  However, all three of those kudos came from players who knew me before I took that role.


Also, considering the vast majority of the comments on my account notes are things like...
- He seems to think and feel a lot, even when percieved to be alone. It's really the most enjoyable character I've had the chance to watch out of about ten so far. I find myself wanting to bring the world more alive for it.
- Lots and lots of hemotes when sneaking around, even when completely alone. Nice.
- He's been playing a while. He's consistently one of the most entertaining to watch, and he is one of the few I've seen not to sink into idle skilling while alone,
keeping the bar of RP high.
- Alot of great solo-rp while crafting. Indepth, using thinks, feels and adding some nice realism.
- Consistent solo-player even when just engaging in mundane activities like haggling with shopkeeps.
- Great RP when hunting/skinning, is very thoughtful with where her character is in the world and what she's doing.

...I don't think you can fairly assume that I play a whole slew of charismatic 'people-persons'.  So like you said in a response to Nyr, please don't assume anything about me as a player.

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 10:30:15 AM
So, please, don't accuse me of only caring about karma... based on a thread i made now. I want to discuss something, and you're making assumptions about who I am as a player.

Maybe Nyr was making an observation based on what you've posted in this thread.  Not an assumption.


Edited to separate the quotes a little better and to avoid any confusion over who said what.

Manipura: The solo RP related notes you have are great examples. I actually received one similar one myself for my solo RP while hunting on an old PC, so maybe I can also try to return to my old ways of RPing solo scenes in an effort to get noticed by staff. Thanks for proving that you can be noticed by staff when alone and not in a clan, you have definitively done that.

However, I can also point out that 3/4 of the kudos you received from players were in a leadership role. The staff kudos is an outlier, I've never even heard of a staff kudos. You must be an excellent solo RPer.

But in any case, fleshing out what my PC is doing when they are alone is a good suggestion. I'll follow up on that one too. Thanks.

Oh, and by the way, in my mind, charismatic does not necessitate a people person... in a way, I think you emoting/roleplaying your haggling, for instance, could relate to being able to roleplay charisma well. So is "being entertaining to watch," but now we're talking semantics.

It appears the overall issue that Harmless has with the karma allocation system is that players who play during peak times, in clans that interact with a lot of people/staff, and in general are a more integral part of the game overall, have a better chance of being seen and getting karma/recognized for their contributions to the game.

If you don't play with many people, aren't part of clans that do a lot/make an impact on the playerbase in order to be recognized by staff, or in general aren't about enough/at the right times to really be seen/interact with other players on a meaningful level.....you might not get seen by staff enough to get evaluated properly for karma.

I see the issue. I agree that players who fit this criteria might not have as many chances to get evaluated for increases in karma.

With that being said, I don't look at karma as a way to get access to super awesome powerful guilds and races so I can be teh uber leetz in my own mind.

I like to think that staff awards karma to players to give them more options to bring to life some of the more rare and possibly more "fantastical" facets of the game world for the improvement of the overall fun of the playerbase.

We don't give fireball mages to newbies, but we give them to vets, because vets are expected to take that role, not twink the crap out of it, and instead use the uniqueness to add to the game world and the overall enjoyment of their fellow players, and then finally themselves. (The same goes for any karma required role/race in my opinion. You are being trusted with a more powerful tool to make the game more fun in general. If you don't buy into that and think it is all just about your own personal fun and screw everyone else, I don't want you playing karma races/guilds personally.)

You don't play sorcerers to be uber leet for example. When you are play a sorcerer, you are basically playing one to be a semi-demi-god in the world and really create some interesting plots and/or quest lines (if I dare use such a term) for other players, while also having fun yourself. I put "yourself" last, because with this sort of role, you are almost always going to end up being a villain at some point, and in some way hunted to your death. That is the way the world is setup for this karma role. You don't have to be evil to be a villain, you just have to be. When you create this sort of role, you know that eventually your prime directive is almost certainly going to be to be the "boss" for the "heroes" to finally take down.

My point is....yes...those players who don't interact with anyone, don't join clans, and don't play in peak times may have a hard time getting that sorcerer karma. That is unfortunate and I actually have empathy for their situation. But, I don't think it is hurting the game any for there not to be a sorcerer on at 2AM with six other people online spam casting their spells in a cave alone twinking it up and offering no interaction and/or positive impact on the playerbase with their super awesome high karma PC.

I would prefer those PC's be given to the players that are most able, capable, and willing to have a positive impact on the playerbase as a whole/to a maximized degree.

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 11:13:27 AM
Manipura: The solo RP related notes you have are great examples. I actually received one similar one myself for my solo RP while hunting on an old PC, so maybe I can also try to return to my old ways of RPing solo scenes in an effort to get noticed by staff. Thanks for proving that you can be noticed by staff when alone and not in a clan, you have definitively done that.

However, I can also point out that 3/4 of the kudos you received from players were in a leadership role. The staff kudos is an outlier, I've never even heard of a staff kudos. You must be an excellent solo RPer.

But in any case, fleshing out what my PC is doing when they are alone is a good suggestion. I'll follow up on that one too. Thanks.

Oh, and by the way, in my mind, charismatic does not necessitate a people person... in a way, I think you emoting/roleplaying your haggling, for instance, could relate to being able to roleplay charisma well. So is "being entertaining to watch," but now we're talking semantics.

I have played numerous leadership roles over the years. A lot of my characters got A LOT of staff interaction.

Manipura (my wife) and I have the exact same karma level.

She got that karma (the same karma I have) without ever playing in a single clan.

Every karma point she has, which equals mine after 15 years of leadership roles and tons of staff interaction, came from playing indy solo PC's that were for the most part strange hermits.

She is my wife and I am obligated to say good things about her, but, her solo-RP is better than my non-solo-RP.

My point is that she has the exact same karma I do, and she got it playing the exact opposite of myself in terms of roles and staff interaction, and we are both 10+ year vets.

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
Anyway, there are three takeaways in summary from my requests and notes:
If you've i

1.) Make less angry rants in my requests. Don't complain to staff in my requests. Keep requests straightforward and simple.

Just at a glance here...make less angry rants?  Why not aim higher than that?  Try for "no angry rants."  That's a good thing to aim for, no?  Complaints are fine if they're the proper kind--player complaints or staff complaints--and we'll let you know if you're being frivolous about either, at which point it's up to you to decide what to do.

Quote2.) Don't suicide characters I should store instead. (This comes from an old account note from about a year ago. I have followed that principle now for the past year)

Yes, this is a good thing to do.

Quote3.) Be Civil on the GDB. I am sincerely trying.

This is a good thing to do as well.

Quote
Lessons that don't apply to me:

How can a lesson not apply to you?  Those lessons apply to me!  Are you saying it doesn't apply because the specific example was so specific that you haven't done that in particular, therefore the overall point doesn't apply?  The point of any example here is to lay out a broader guideline, and just give a glimpse of what kind of thought process goes into reviewing someone's karma.  There are literally pages and pages of things players can do that are bad that I don't have the time to go over, and pages and pages of things that players can do that are good that I don't have the time to go over.

These are all great things to work towards, and doing all of them still isn't a guarantee of getting karma.  There is no guarantee.  There is no list you can check off to get more karma.  While we do have more staff-side documentation that goes into the categories of karma awarding and docking, it's staff-side documentation for a reason (to prevent players just going down a list on their own and arguing over what their karma should be, even though that still happens sometimes).  That's why I pointed out that old player post about it where the player was ticking through the categories and saying "I've got this, so I should have karma!"  Now, that particular post in question was saying they'd have 7 karma because they went down the whole list, but even if you're doing this to any one category, you're doing the same thing.

It ultimately comes down to staff deciding whether you fit the requirements for karma (whether to increase, decrease, or leave it the same), and at that point it is up to you to trust in whether we are applying the same standards to you that we would to any player that was doing the same things (good or bad) that you were.

Actually, those 3 out of 5 player kudos were not from a leadership role.
As I said, that PC did go on to take a leadership role, but the three kudos she got came before that, from players who never knew me as a leader.

The other two player kudos were for two different PCs, one never in a clan and the other only in a clan a short time and unclanned when the kudos were received.

The staff kudos was for an unclanned PC as well.

Not trying to be nit-picky or anything, just clarifying facts. :)

Phew. Nyr, please stop taking every little way I word things and then turning into a two paragraph reply... when I say "don't apply," I meant "not specifically helpful to me." If I don't blow up on the GDB after one of my PCs die, being told not to do that is, by definition, not helpful. Another way of putting it is "not applicable." Sheesh. Of course people shouldn't blow up on the GDB after they die, that's inappropriate for several reasons, some of them being that it violates the rules of sharing IC info on the GDB.

Anyway..

Okay.  Good luck on your thread.

Dman:

Quote from: Desertman on July 29, 2014, 11:16:03 AM
It appears the overall issue that Harmless has with the karma allocation system is that players who play during peak times, in clans that interact with a lot of people/staff, and in general are a more integral part of the game overall, have a better chance of being seen and getting karma/recognized for their contributions to the game.

If you don't play with many people, aren't part of clans that do a lot/make an impact on the playerbase in order to be recognized by staff, or in general aren't about enough/at the right times to really be seen/interact with other players on a meaningful level.....you might not get seen by staff enough to get evaluated properly for karma.

I see the issue. I agree that players who fit this criteria might not have as many chances to get evaluated for increases in karma.

With that being said, I don't look at karma as a way to get access to super awesome powerful guilds and races so I can be teh uber leetz in my own mind.

I like to think that staff awards karma to players to give them more options to bring to life some of the more rare and possibly more "fantastical" facets of the game world for the improvement of the overall fun of the playerbase.

We don't give fireball mages to newbies, but we give them to vets, because vets are expected to take that role, not twink the crap out of it, and instead use the uniqueness to add to the game world and the overall enjoyment of their fellow players, and then finally themselves. (The same goes for any karma required role/race in my opinion. You are being trusted with a more powerful tool to make the game more fun in general. If you don't buy into that and think it is all just about your own personal fun and screw everyone else, I don't want you playing karma races/guilds personally.)

You don't play sorcerers to be uber leet for example. When you are play a sorcerer, you are basically playing one to be a semi-demi-god in the world and really create some interesting plots and/or quest lines (if I dare use such a term) for other players, while also having fun yourself. I put "yourself" last, because with this sort of role, you are almost always going to end up being a villain at some point, and in some way hunted to your death. That is the way the world is setup for this karma role. You don't have to be evil to be a villain, you just have to be. When you create this sort of role, you know that eventually your prime directive is almost certainly going to be to be the "boss" for the "heroes" to finally take down.

My point is....yes...those players who don't interact with anyone, don't join clans, and don't play in peak times may have a hard time getting that sorcerer karma. That is unfortunate and I actually have empathy for their situation. But, I don't think it is hurting the game any for there not to be a sorcerer on at 2AM with six other people online spam casting their spells in a cave alone twinking it up and offering no interaction and/or positive impact on the playerbase with their super awesome high karma PC.

I would prefer those PC's be given to the players that are most able, capable, and willing to have a positive impact on the playerbase as a whole/to a maximized degree.

Dman: Thanks for your reply. I don't disagree with you about the value of karma-required roles, and how they should be handed out. I totally understand the idea that staff should only put roles with fantastical powers into the hands of players they trust. On the whole, I agree with the karma system, I think there should be a system. I'm also glad to see that you empathize with the difficulties of certain playing styles and habits and being visible. I am also glad to see that you, as a player with more than 1 karma, are sharing that you have played multiple leadership roles. Again, every piece of evidence we could possibly present here is anecdotal, but yours is in line with many others'.

We agree that manipura is an outlier from that, but manipura, you explained it very well and provided the proof in terms of your account notes and such what you're doing differently. I can freely admit that when I am alone I rarely throw out emotes and thinks and feels to flesh out the scene. Often it's because I don't have enough energy or interest to do that, and I can't be sure staff are watching. Of the characters where I have gotten notes for my thinks and solo RP, I was in clans. I had an n=1 of players to go off of in wondering if there was a causal relationship there, but now that I have n=5 or so good responses from the playerbase from this thread I started that are pretty consistent with that (again, manipura being the one outlier I've seen so far), then I can pretty comfortably call it a trend.

Anyway, getting karma isn't a goal. But people here also note that they do take roles with leadership responsibility and power and are happy when they get karma. That's a difference that they understand. I understand it too. I am a little confrontational in my posts here but that's just how I am, yo. Kinda comes with the territory of my culture and where I grew up, so I apologize to anybody who thinks I'm salty. I am quite literally coated in salt.

Not sure how I feel about all of this. I go back and forth.

Karma is a bit of a catch 22 sometimes. There is a karma point for leadership, but you need to get a leadership role (few and far between) to achieve it. At least that is how I understand it. On the other hand, you want to make sure the leaders are good players.

Armageddon is a game where PCs learn by failure. I think players also learn by failure, and the learning curve is steep.  But if you fail, that sometimes equates to poor play and possible bad notes, even if your failure has shown you what -not- to do in the future.

Getting better at most games requires coaching and the ability to help a player towards their potential. Imagine if I just sent my son out to play rugby with no coach. He would likely not play well and possibly get hurt. Yet at the same time it is not reasonable to think that staff have the time to work with so many players at that level.

I am enjoying the original submissions, because they give me some great examples that I can try and emulate in game. For me karma is not something that I want for it's own sake. There are only a few roles above level 3 that interest me. Karma is more a validation that I am doing what I set out to do, and that is have fun and play this game well.

The key to getting karma is to kill karma roles. The drop rate is really low, but sometimes you'll find a karma on their corpse when you loot them.

If you play mostly solo, your only opportunity to be recognized is to be a good solo RP'er.

If you are a player that plays mostly in clans/with groups of people, you have opportunities to be recognized for things beyond your solo RP.

Quote from: Harmless on July 29, 2014, 11:42:40 AM
I can freely admit that when I am alone I rarely throw out emotes and thinks and feels to flesh out the scene. Often it's because I don't have enough energy or interest to do that, and I can't be sure staff are watching.

The only thing we have come to a conclusion about in this thread is this.....

"If you are playing mostly solo but don't have the energy/motivation to be a good solo RP'er, you won't get karma for your solo RP."

However, if you aren't playing mostly solo, then you will have other opportunities to get karma.

The final solution seems to be to put more effort into your solo RP, like manipura, and you will get karma for it too.

You could also start playing in clans or locations that don't force you to do so much solo RP if that is an option for you.

The anecdotal evidence presented here today says two things:

A) People who play in clans get recognized and get karma for their player to player interaction more than people who play solo, because they are playing solo.

B) The few people who prefer to play solo, can and do get the same karma, they just get it through their very good solo RP.

Those are facts as far as the data in this thread is concerned.

(With that being said I am in the same boat with you as far as solo RP is concerned. Sometimes I am spot on with it and doing all of the thinks and feels, and some days, man, I just don't have the energy.)

I think off-peak/solo RPers also get it by writing bios (though this mostly shows you are playing a consistent character, at least for me when I write them), keeping Staff informed about their goings on, and generally being a good player.

There are a lot of off-peak Staff too. I've sometimes seen more animations/movement/wishes being answered in the wee hours of the morning rather than at peak.

I think there be plenty of assumptions in this thread, but the moral of the story is, karma is not an end in and of itself. It's a nice pat on the head from Staff, which shouldn't be why you play the game. It's doled out by Staff, at Staff discretion, so I don't think players will ever fully understand why or how they get karma.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 29, 2014, 11:55:00 AM
The key to getting karma is to kill karma roles. The drop rate is really low, but sometimes you'll find a karma on their corpse when you loot them.

Hehehe. At least someone else feels the need to bring some levity to this thread.

I feel like you guys take this too seriously. Both the discussion, and karma in general. You'll notice people with karma keep saying "karma is not an end in itself". They say that because they have realized that karma isn't a destination. You can't plot a course from here to there, like people upset with their karma seem to want to do.  Karma is just something that happens to you when you're playing the game, enjoying it, and doing it well.

I know some people just have a burning desire to play a unicorn mage from day 1, and they get really frustrated looking at the karma points list going "I can do all those things! I'll have unicorn karma in no time!" And then days turn into weeks turn into years, and they still have one freaking point. I TOTALLY understand why that would be frustrating. I think the best advice vets can give in this regard, though, is: Don't worry about the karma. Don't even think about it. The amount you have or don't have isn't a 1:1 reflection of your quality as a role player or how much staff likes or doesn't like you.  In the end, put those dreams of roles you want to play but can't in a purplish basket for another day and don't let the character/player you want to be get in the way of the character/player that you are now. Play the game, have fun, rock the role you're in. You really will be happier for it.

I realize that might kinda seem like empty help, but it's possible it may be the only help anyone can really give you in this regard. FWIW

Quote from: James de Monet on July 29, 2014, 02:57:25 PM

I know some people just have a burning desire to play a unicorn mage from day 1

(http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Soraka_0.jpg)

Of COURSE there's a (probably dA) picture of a unicorn mage, why am I not surprised.

And once upon a time, I cared so damned much about karma. Much like I cared so damned much about anything reward-based in this game. Then I realized that if I want to play something, spec app it, make it sound fun and it'll be given to me 100%.

Quote from: Is Friday on July 28, 2014, 09:33:44 PM
Romantically beating up elves in the street with Byn Sergeant Rythe. Awww. How cute! - 6/16/12

Bahahahaha. Best account note ever. I got a similar one. Good times. ;D

RE: Bios and Karma... I'm not sure this is the case. I know some staff read them, but I've yet to gotten a single staff note for a Bio entry I've written, let alone karma... Course I stopped writing Bio's after 2 crashes stole them all last year or so :(

But Srsly. To hell with karma. It's chasing a carrot that only leads to what you get w. a mundane (mud-sex. branching. mantis head). Game gets blown open once you stop caring and circumvent the barrier w. spec apps.

Besides I take pride that I probably did more cool, badass stuff with a 1 karma off-peak, iso-clanned d-elf than many ppl have w. 4-5-6-7 karma PCs.

Come to think of it, I'd rather play a mundane Byn Sarge than a Sorc.  I've run into a few Sorc's in arm (and PK'd a couple) and the RP / interactions / situations I had with them paled in comparison to a good, badass Byn Sarge.

Quote from: Desertman on July 29, 2014, 11:56:26 AM
A) People who play in clans get recognized and get karma for their player to player interaction more than people who play solo, because they are playing solo.

B) The few people who prefer to play solo, can and do get the same karma, they just get it through their very good solo RP.

Those are facts as far as the data in this thread is concerned.

I agree. Combine A and B together, and you basically get "Play the game well, and you'll get karma eventually."

Probably a slight oversimplification... the thing is, no one really plays the game "poorly" and sticks around for a long time without getting better. So it's arguably good players without much karma wondering how to get karma. In which case the main problem for them is standing out. Certainly, karma isn't the goal of playing the game - players don't need staff pats on the back to have fun, but it's a nice feeling to be recognized - by players and staff alike - for playing a character well. Player recognition comes in the form of kudos, and staff can send kudos to players too, but they can also give karma.

I think part of the problem with the perception of the karma system is that it can seem somewhat arbitrary looking in from the outside, even with the guidelines on how karma is awarded - it's still controlled by fallible, unevenly perceptive humans that named themselves after pagan gods and other obscure things. The thing is, players don't have to wait around to get karma to play a role that they want. Even if you don't get karma sending weekly reports for a year with the same PC, writing up elaborate biographies and wishing up whenever your PC does something dangerous that the world might react to, etc., you can just special app something and there's a chance the staff will say "Hey, you should have the karma for this anyway - karma granted!" And if not, so long as your request is fairly reasonable, you still get a good chance of landing the role. Karma is only a measure of what you can play immediately, not what you can play after staff has a quick look at your notes and check how many other Nilazi dwarf prostitutes there are already in the game.

Don't really care about karma, I only want more to have it...you know, like collecting beer bottles...or whatever.

Course I did see something in this thread that made me a bit  sad....lately I have been feeling rather good about staff and this...

Quote- He seems to think and feel a lot, even when percieved to be alone. It's really the most enjoyable character I've had the chance to watch out of about ten so far. I find myself wanting to bring the world more alive for it.
- Lots and lots of hemotes when sneaking around, even when completely alone. Nice.
- He's been playing a while. He's consistently one of the most entertaining to watch, and he is one of the few I've seen not to sink into idle skilling while alone,
keeping the bar of RP high.
- Alot of great solo-rp while crafting. Indepth, using thinks, feels and adding some nice realism.
- Consistent solo-player even when just engaging in mundane activities like haggling with shopkeeps.
- Great RP when hunting/skinning, is very thoughtful with where her character is in the world and what she's doing.

...has removed some of that good feeling...please tell me that those are really old.

What are you actually objecting to, there?

A lot of Manipura's notes are notes I will never get. I'm just not going to change my roleplaying style towards those directions. The trend for me has been to do less and less hemoting alone. I type out thinks and feels far less often now, but I do think of throwing them in now and again for my character's hidden reactions to other PCs.  The trend is for me to do less of everything Manipura's notes, not more.


The exception would be if I get a special app'ed mage. Since magic is new to me I'll likely do a lot of solo RP surrounding it, but not sure for how long I'll be able to keep that up.

So what? Solo RP isn't the "secret" to getting Karma. I'd wager that of all the activities that can net you karma, it's probably the least effective overall. Doing nice emotes while you solo-craft in a cave with a box of scraps isn't going to give Staff much insight on how responsibly you'll behave if they give you a jetpack and laser hands. May be how you got those scraps.... Did you scrape them together over a reasonable length of in-character time, or did you just blitz a region spam-foraging?

I feel like it'd been said before, but if not I'll be the one to say it: the first step to getting karma is to not whinge about karma on the GDB. If you play the game responsibly, karma will come to you. If you play to have fun, you may even stop giving a shit about karma.

At the risk of sounding rather trite and simplistic, my suggestion for being valuable as a player is to play generously. Play not just to have fun but to make fun. Follow the rules. That's kind of the deal, I think.

I think in general (and not just related to karma) staff are a lot more favorable towards roleplay and plots that involve lots of people.

Quote from: X-D on July 29, 2014, 07:36:58 PM
Don't really care about karma, I only want more to have it...you know, like collecting beer bottles...or whatever.

Course I did see something in this thread that made me a bit  sad....lately I have been feeling rather good about staff and this...

Quote- He seems to think and feel a lot, even when percieved to be alone. It's really the most enjoyable character I've had the chance to watch out of about ten so far. I find myself wanting to bring the world more alive for it.
- Lots and lots of hemotes when sneaking around, even when completely alone. Nice.
- He's been playing a while. He's consistently one of the most entertaining to watch, and he is one of the few I've seen not to sink into idle skilling while alone,
keeping the bar of RP high.
- Alot of great solo-rp while crafting. Indepth, using thinks, feels and adding some nice realism.
- Consistent solo-player even when just engaging in mundane activities like haggling with shopkeeps.
- Great RP when hunting/skinning, is very thoughtful with where her character is in the world and what she's doing.

...has removed some of that good feeling...please tell me that those are really old.

I'm not really sure what you consider "really old." 
Mid to late 2010 - a few months ago.

???  Like BadSkeelz, I'm also not really sure what you're objecting to...?

Also, I like how simply Barzalene summed up this whole thread...

Quote from: Barzalene on July 29, 2014, 08:41:42 PM
.... my suggestion for being valuable as a player is to play generously. Play not just to have fun but to make fun. Follow the rules...

At the risk of derail, I will answer.

Solo "rp" is when you roleplay alone, if your PC is alone or thinks they are then you are performing solo RP.
Roleplay is not emote, semote, etc, it is not even thinks or feels, these are simply tools to help Show that roleplay to others. It should be rated no better or worse then any other roleplay, as long as you are staying in your char then you are roleplaying as well as anybody else.

But what I see in the quoted section is a staffer rating roleplay, "seemingly" By quantity and quality of emotes, thinks feels.

When instead it should be, Is this PC doing what this PC should be doing....Yup...and being fancy about it too...bonus.

Essentually I see a style being rated as above others first off, which is sad...Staffer noting an account because it is a style they like.

Bleh.


On topic though.

I have found that, at least with the newish way staff does karma, that they do  give credit for the less...opinionated parts. Getting to 3 karma seems pretty easy.
Longevity of PC and play.
Playing within the docs and the world.

Just those two show that staff can trust you to a reasonable point...and they are so simple.

After that, any one of the others gets you to three...maybe 4, as playing within the docs could account for up to 3 of the options.

Barz is right though....good way of putting it too.

I am not sure if that should get you karma, but it will get you noticed and you will have more fun along with the people around your PC.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 29, 2014, 08:01:19 PM
So what? Solo RP isn't the "secret" to getting Karma. I'd wager that of all the activities that can net you karma, it's probably the least effective overall. Doing nice emotes while you solo-craft in a cave with a box of scraps isn't going to give Staff much insight on how responsibly you'll behave if they give you a jetpack and laser hands. May be how you got those scraps.... Did you scrape them together over a reasonable length of in-character time, or did you just blitz a region spam-foraging?

I feel like it'd been said before, but if not I'll be the one to say it: the first step to getting karma is to not whinge about karma on the GDB. If you play the game responsibly, karma will come to you. If you play to have fun, you may even stop giving a shit about karma.

So what? I'm just commenting that isn't going to happen to me. It's a style, as you say. It's not my style. It likely won't be, but who knows, or for brief periods, it might be. Whatever. I'm in your camp.

Also.. I'm not whining. I'm noticing a lot of trends, though.

Quote from: X-D on July 29, 2014, 10:27:00 PM

I am not sure if that should get you karma, but it will get you noticed and you will have more fun along with the people around your PC.

Quote from: Barzalene on July 29, 2014, 08:41:42 PM
At the risk of sounding rather trite and simplistic, my suggestion for being valuable as a player is to play generously. Play not just to have fun but to make fun. Follow the rules. That's kind of the deal, I think.

Quote from: HavokBlue on July 29, 2014, 09:02:12 PM
I think in general (and not just related to karma) staff are a lot more favorable towards roleplay and plots that involve lots of people.

Three different people coming in to the thread kind of lateish. All three of them agreeing with each other. Bolded parts that emphasize the inclusion of other players.

This, again, points out that people who have difficulties involving other players in plots will have difficulty doing anything of notice in game and being noticed by staff.

If I have nothing to report on, because I rarely have the chance to interact with players, I will not file reports, and the staff will continue to see me the same.

Anyway, I'm reiterating my difficulty. You guys all make it sound so easy. You're also all really getting involved with other players. I just haven't been able to do that. Trust barriers and the like, I rarely have the -time- to break.


This brings up another point.

Staff changes: The staff rotate every few months. That's cool. But if I only file a report or two every few months, then staffers never get to know me. If I can't keep my PCs alive either, then I rarely get to send more than three interesting reports to one clan before I die. Usually the reports are humdrum at first, as I get to know people. At some point a promotion comes along. Then... splat.

As the months pass, those staffers may even quit being staff. I'm not sure I've ever gained notice from any one staffer significantly. Well. Except for Nyr, of course.

I've played times when I've had to solo RP, but solo RP doesn't equate with iso role. A person living in the city, hanging out in the bars, being recognized when they enter and exit a room, is not an iso character. And yet, if they never talk to anyone, they are solo-RPing. A person who plays iso characters might not run into anyone for long periods of time, but thanks to the Way, they aren't always necessarily solo-RPing.

I've played both to some extent. I've played the iso character who wasn't known in the cities at all, and only known "for sure" by a scant few other characters who she only saw maybe for a scant hour or two every RL week. And yet, I managed to get lots of stuff done, and provide bits and pieces of things for other characters to chew on. I wasn't in a leadership role, or a sponsored role.

I've played the semi-solo player who enjoyed both solitude and the company of others to some extent, who didn't "hang out" anywhere for any length of time, was recognized but not known all that well, managed to involve others in things even from the fringes of interaction.

Iso and solo roles don't prevent anyone from being involved or in involving others.

But honestly, this game is a multi-player interactive text game. If you don't like interacting with multiple players, then this might not be the right game for you. You shouldn't be looking at it in terms of "so I won't ever get karma because I don't like to do that stuff." You should be looking at it more of "I won't ever really "get" this game, because I don't like to do that stuff."

Quote from: Harmless on July 30, 2014, 03:38:54 AM

Three different people coming in to the thread kind of lateish. All three of them agreeing with each other. Bolded parts that emphasize the inclusion of other players.

This, again, points out that people who have difficulties involving other players in plots will have difficulty doing anything of notice in game and being noticed by staff.

I don't know if this will be of any use to you. I kind of suck at plots. I mean I'm great at backing a good idea or running opposition to what seems like a bad idea, but I'm not much good at dynamic game plans. The sort of people I most like to play with are the ones who treat my pc like a real person and I extend the same courtesy to others. Also, and this may seem counter intuitive, it's alright to let other people take the limelight and then react. (This is not a criticism of your play style. It's very likely you are already doing all these things. I don't know who you play.) Maybe this seems really basic and if so I apologize. My point is simply that active participation can be supportive.

Quote from: Barzalene on July 30, 2014, 08:03:53 AM

Quote from: Harmless on July 30, 2014, 03:38:54 AM

Three different people coming in to the thread kind of lateish. All three of them agreeing with each other. Bolded parts that emphasize the inclusion of other players.

This, again, points out that people who have difficulties involving other players in plots will have difficulty doing anything of notice in game and being noticed by staff.

I don't know if this will be of any use to you. I kind of suck at plots. I mean I'm great at backing a good idea or running opposition to what seems like a bad idea, but I'm not much good at dynamic game plans. The sort of people I most like to play with are the ones who treat my pc like a real person and I extend the same courtesy to others. Also, and this may seem counter intuitive, it's alright to let other people take the limelight and then react. (This is not a criticism of your play style. It's very likely you are already doing all these things. I don't know who you play.) Maybe this seems really basic and if so I apologize. My point is simply that active participation can be supportive.

Playing supportive roles is pretty much what I was referring to in my previous post. You don't need to be *leading* the plots in order to earn staff notice (for good or for bad, for karma or for not). And you don't need to be clanned to get involved in plots. You don't need to be clanned, or a leader, to create plots. You don't need to be clanned, or in a sponsored role, or a promoted leader, or even in a karma-required role, in order to get involved in plots, move plots, create plots, and thereby gain staff attention (and by extension, earn or not-earn karma).

You can do ALL of these things in a supportive role that might or might not see much interaction with other characters. But the more often you interact, the better the odds are of getting noticed. That's how it is with everything, from real life to gaming. The whole tree in the forest thing: if a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? The Armageddon answer: No one gives a shit, unless that falling tree means an invasion of halflings a week later.

This might also be appropriate to toss up here.  Or maybe in the other thread.  Either way.  Here it is.

Quote from: Nyr on September 12, 2011, 11:25:09 PM
We're perfectly happy to talk to players that have issues with staff or those that feel that staff have issues with them.  However, we can't read minds, so players would have to initiate that contact through other mediums that we've previously established.  Just like the karma system (with its structure to assist staff in applying the same set of criteria to every player), the complaint system has been fine-tuned and worked on over a period of time.  That is the proper avenue to voice a complaint. Whinging, complaining, or posting choice bits of thoughtful (but negative, subjective, and possibly incorrect) insight on the GDB might be expressive, but since we've already outlined a process for this sort of thing, it will more than likely fall on deaf ears. 

Feel like staff have wronged you?  Put in a staff complaint.  These have to be resolved by Producers.  They cannot be replied to by anyone but a Producer.  (As mentioned above, the system has been fine-tuned to this point over a lengthy period of time--again, only Producers can respond.) You're essentially bringing your issue to the top echelons of the game.

Feel like staff have wronged your friend?  Get them to put in a staff complaint.  You are not privy to both sides of an issue.  You may think you understand the full story; perhaps you do.  It is more than likely that you do not have all of the details, however.

Finally, it is not "your word" against "any number of staff members."  It is what actually occurred on the record--granted, the interpreters of the record ultimately are staff members, but at some point, the volunteers that staff the game have to make decisions of authority.  About that record, though...why do you think we have moved to a request tool that is outside of e-mail?  There were a few reasons behind this, but the chief one is accountability.  For all intents and purposes, it is the truth from which decisions are based.  Why do you think we have added an ability for all Administrators to pull runlogs via a web tool?  Accessibility?  Yes--but another chief reason would be accountability and background.

Perhaps we're all corrupt, standing over you with our collective staff fly unzipped and raining down our negativity and karma docking and bans all over your happy roleplaying, communication (with staff and other players), and player conduct that just has had no fault that you can see (and since you can't see it, it must not be there). 

However, maybe--just maybe?--perhaps you did do something wrong.  And you know what?  The place to talk about that would be the request tool, through the proper channels.

QuoteIf I have nothing to report on, because I rarely have the chance to interact with players, I will not file reports, and the staff will continue to see me the same.

BTW...I have been told by staff that even putting in a "I have nothing to report" Report is fine.

Not that I do that...I am always lax on reports myself, I simply have other things to do.

Cept for PK reports, I hate doing them and think over all it is stupid, but Meh, the powers that be want it so it is the least I can do.

But yes, it is unlikely I will ever get that karma point...unless I someday take/get a sponsored role.

What's there not to like about PK reports? They're quick and easy. Mine are rarely more than a few lines of "I killed Amos because he was being a derp and I wanted to." I just save the sdesc and the time in a note pad and file them once I'm safe somewhere.

Karma is like money. How much you care about it is inversely proportional to how much you have.

Oh, I never said it was hard to do, that is why I actually do them, I am just from before that was needed.

So I still have it in my mind..ya know?

On the bright side...there are at least 60 PCs in the last 2 years that lived longer because of pk reports.

Often goes something like this.

(my thoughts not my PC)
Well, I should kill this person.
But then I will have to file a PK report...
Fuck it, I don't feel like it.
Come up with excuse to leave PC live.

I never knew there was such a thing as a PK report.  'help kill' mentions you should wish up if possible before you PK, but nothing about a PK report.  Maybe the existence of PK reports should also be mentioned in help kill (I'll idea this in game).

PK reports are only required for templars and soldiers, IIRC.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on July 31, 2014, 12:55:09 PM
PK reports are only required for templars and soldiers, IIRC.

Not exactly true. I think if you are someone who kills a lot of people, you get asked by Staff to submit PK reports and to wish up (as a courtesy) before killing people. Like a Whiran or a nuts assassin with max'd backstab and an itchy trigger finger. But I think when you accept roles that are high PK (Like the Red Fang, I remember being told to submit PK reports), you're informed at the beginning of the role.

There are roles that don't involve killing a lot of people?  ???

Just noticed the final bullet points of 'help reports' describes a good character report as including "if your character kills another PC [or at least thinks s/he did :)]".

Some stream-of-consciousness bullshit from a player who doesn't have any karma...

If you look at Hollywood, there are actors who 'make' the movie they're in.  Johnny Depp was cast in Pirates of the Carribbean because the producers knew what they were going to get out of him - an extremely memorable performance that would build a massive audience for the ongoing franchise.  At this point in his career, Depp can pick and choose his roles, and he is, by way of analogy, a "high karma" (i.e., A-list) actor.

Unfortunately, there's no "recipe" for becoming an A-list actor, much to the chagrin of all the hopeful actors living in LA.  You either have it or you don't (of course luck plays a factor, as well, moreso than in our little community).  Creating memorable characters that influence and color the game world for others is one of those things that some people are good at, and others aren't so good at.

And just like in Hollywood, the movie probably wouldn't be as good if we let Norm MacDonald play Jack Sparrow out of a sense of "fairness".

Fortunately, all us would-be-actors waiting tables are allowed (and often encouraged!) to punch the Johnny Depps of the world in the face. The system works!

To ruin CodeMaster's analogy, Jim Carrey was their first choice and they couldn't get him. :P

Quote from: Zoan on July 31, 2014, 04:19:55 PM
To ruin CodeMaster's analogy, Jim Carrey was their first choice and they couldn't get him. :P

... are you.... are you.... serious...?

Yep. (http://seriousfacts.com/the-role-of-captain-jack-sparrow-was-initially-offered-to-jim-carrey-but-he-turned-it-down-for-bruce-almighty/)

(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3j9tmEaZa1rn2y3ao1_1280.jpg)

Quote from: CodeMaster on July 31, 2014, 01:32:06 PM
Some stream-of-consciousness bullshit from a player who doesn't have any karma...

If you look at Hollywood, there are actors who 'make' the movie they're in.  Johnny Depp was cast in Pirates of the Carribbean because the producers knew what they were going to get out of him - an extremely memorable performance that would build a massive audience for the ongoing franchise.  At this point in his career, Depp can pick and choose his roles, and he is, by way of analogy, a "high karma" (i.e., A-list) actor.

Unfortunately, there's no "recipe" for becoming an A-list actor, much to the chagrin of all the hopeful actors living in LA.  You either have it or you don't (of course luck plays a factor, as well, moreso than in our little community).  Creating memorable characters that influence and color the game world for others is one of those things that some people are good at, and others aren't so good at.

And just like in Hollywood, the movie probably wouldn't be as good if we let Norm MacDonald play Jack Sparrow out of a sense of "fairness".

This analogy is pretty decent. It does little to make me feel better about it.

I don't like the analogy becuase Karma is trust, not skill.

You can be the best roleplayer(actor) in the world and still never get any karma if you aren't doing the right things(character reports, longevity, special apping above your limit).

Harmless, I don't think anyone is going to make you feel better about karma assessment. That's up to you.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 31, 2014, 06:12:19 PM
I don't like the analogy becuase Karma is trust, not skill.

I'm certainly hoping it's a little of both, and though trust would be required, I'd hope skill is heavily weighed in for the upper echelon.

I've always expected a certain degree of it to be shown by any role that has a pretty high karma requirement. I suppose you could put it under trust in the same way you could say, "Hey, I trust you to be grammatically correct in your interactions with other players and show a certain level of skill in your attempt to bring the world alive and add flavor."

---

"Hold close to the warm embrace of the tree line for fear of that most pernicious evil: the mage."

"yo', inc mages. stick to trees, biatches."

FWIW team, I think every single one of you deserve AT LEAST two/three more karma than you presently have, because you're all fantastic.

Failing that, just spec-app every so often and let me kill you/let you kill me.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 31, 2014, 06:12:19 PM
I don't like the analogy becuase Karma is trust, not skill.

You can be the best roleplayer(actor) in the world and still never get any karma if you aren't doing the right things(character reports, longevity, special apping above your limit).

In the same way directors trust that when they hire johnny depp to be their main character he'll draw an audience, the imms trust that when they give a certain role to a high karma player, the role will be played correctly.

The analogy is accurate. The only way in which it is different is that actors can't special app. The special app is what saves the system from being exactly like this.

Anyway. I file reports and live for as long as I can, but special apps are new to me. I have been doing extended subguilds aplenty, but it hasn't exactly helped my ability to get noticed by the imms, for the reasons outlined above.

That's why I'm just waiting on my special app at the moment. Special apps are the only thing that make me feel better about karma. For all other intents and purposes, it's like codemaster describes.


That might be the biggest takeaway from this thread. extended subguilds are fun as hell. But it's kind of a self gratifying fun. It doesn't add that much to your character's plot potential. At least, it hasn't in my experience.

Rather than wait on extended subguild apps, for the next few years of my arma gaming career I will special app instead. That would also be my advice for pretty much anyone in my situation, who may feel that despite their best efforts, their characters aren't doing enough to be noticed by staff: special app above your karma limit for restricted mainguilds and races.

Thanks all.

Harmless, does it occur to you that maybe you haven't attracted staff notice because you haven't done anything worth noticing? Or maybe you -have- attracted staff notice, but the notes were very specific and pointing out situations involving other characters, and they have to edit out those comments when they present the account notes to you.

I've had account notes twice. My first set was shortly following the death of my character Sgt. Tola of Kurac. I was in regular communication with the staff, I drove plotlines, I "did stuff," got involved in all kinds of insane sick crazy shit (this was just before the copper war, when magicks were sploding all over the place) and was assassinated in a pretty spectacular way. I had the "wants feedback" toggle on.

Here's my notes:
added 1 karma, making 1 total, for Long lived char, consistently played.
Thinks to go along with play. Worth seeing what she can do.
added 1 karma, making 2 total, for Excellent play with Tola in Kurac
set account Lizzie's karma to 3, Long lived play with Tola, getting
involved as a leader, oocly responsible

Comments:

#Landra# shudders and cringes, then brings her hands up to her head and
rubs her temples.
Nice emote. Showing good roleplay and seems to be catching on to the world
nicely.
Pro'ly one of the most impressive noobs I've encountered--both on IG and
on the GDB.
Requested Landra's storage, has notified Salarr staff.
Received kudos from account Loup for Tola.
rec'd nice compliment for play as Tola

Received kudos from account Braxs for play with Tola.

Tola was my second character. Landra was my first. Landra did mostly nothing at all, which was why I stored her after only a month or so. I got karma for playing Landra, and more actual comments about my play of my very boring, very bored first character, than I did with the character that actually got neck-deep into astounding shit.

In my second account notes, which were just in the last year, there were other notes that hadn't appeared in the first set, that dated back to that first set. They'd been edited out at the time. It's very possible that the same applies to you. That you just don't get to see those notes yet, and whatever is in them, might be preventing you from getting the karma. Or, you just might not be interesting enough to get staff notice. I was definitely not interesting with my first character Landra, but apparently someone was watching. Maybe they were more bored than I was at the time :)

Quote from: Lizzie on August 01, 2014, 06:54:43 AM
Harmless, does it occur to you that maybe you haven't attracted staff notice because you haven't done anything worth noticing?

Yeah, because I pretty much said this.

Quote
Or maybe you -have- attracted staff notice, but the notes were very specific and pointing out situations involving other characters, and they have to edit out those comments when they present the account notes to you.

Maybe so. I would have no way of knowing, but when my timer ticks down to ask for account notes again I intend to check to see if any such notes exist... moreover, Nyr reassured me they may consider going back and adding a few if they think of them, and at the very least, they will be able to give me feedback on to 20+ reports I've clocked in over the past two years or so.

I wonder if part of the "issue" at hand is that firstly, there are still people that have karma from back when it was (honestly) given willy nilly because someone was in a good mood, and these days its more rigid?

And secondly, despite its supposedly rigid roots, there's still not really a rubric or guidelines for karma because in the end, its the trust of under a dozen people in this 200+ person game, who aren't on all the time? Especially as you get higher up the "pay" scale (with the exception of Nyr, who may well be the Ghost in the Machine).

I mean. I'll probably never get karma, but thats not as much because staff never see me (though, yes, I've been told by clan staff before that they don't observe during my playtimes), as it is because I'm an untrustworthy twink who in almost 10 years has only killed PCs due to an accident.





I should kill more people.

Quote from: Riev on August 01, 2014, 01:20:58 PM
I should kill more people.

That's what I've been doing. :P

I should definitely kill more people as well.

I won't lie. All these butthurt threads were getting me down until I logged in on a whim and PKed somebody.

I have very limited tastes in roles I like to play. And have fewer things I play well. I also communicate poorly, either too emotionally, or not enough or clearly enough. I've done all right with karma but I gave up having the chance to play my dream roles a while ago - both from a feeling I won't ever get there and the belief I won't be able to rp well enough with things I don't enjoy well enough to justify it.

Honestly, I think the karma system is fair and reasonable - staff have been very patient and tolerant of me, if not supportive and very helpful and caring. We just have to come to terms with the idea we can't play whatever we want when we want, or even that we might not be as good as we think. So were I to return, I'd play and enjoy what I have, because at the end of the day, it's just a game and it owes me nothing.

case I like your characters

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ok-then.gif)

Thanks IF, now I wanna make a Corporal Nobbs style military man.

Quote from: HavokBlue on August 02, 2014, 04:26:24 AM
case I like your characters

Quote from: Case on August 02, 2014, 03:27:49 AM
I have very limited tastes in roles I like to play. And have fewer things I play well. I also communicate poorly, either too emotionally, or not enough or clearly enough. I've done all right with karma but I gave up having the chance to play my dream roles a while ago - both from a feeling I won't ever get there and the belief I won't be able to rp well enough with things I don't enjoy well enough to justify it.

Honestly, I think the karma system is fair and reasonable - staff have been very patient and tolerant of me, if not supportive and very helpful and caring. We just have to come to terms with the idea we can't play whatever we want when we want, or even that we might not be as good as we think. So were I to return, I'd play and enjoy what I have, because at the end of the day, it's just a game and it owes me nothing.

Very well said.  I too have a "limited taste in roles," particularly over the last two or three years.  It's gotten to where when a character I was really into dies, it'll me 2-6 months before I get into or even try another.  Sometimes trying something "new" will help with this, sometimes it doesn't, but that is the type of player that I am, I guess.  I've been fortunate enough to be allowed to play all the currently available races with some success (weeps a little that I never got to play a gith or halfling, expecially a gith), and most of the classes.  I usually like playing an outsider, either a magicker, a non-human, or both.  I like the built in conflict, and I love the racial quirks that our non-human races offer, even the ones I can't/don't play well.  Back to karma, though: Some of us have devoted untold hours to this game over the span of years to -decades- (march was eight years for me, I think).  The two positive OOC feedbacks/achievements/accomplishments we get that are for -us- and not our PCs are Karma and Kudos.  These make us feel good, happy, fulfilled with the work we put into this never-ending story that we all know, love and hate.