Karma assessment.

[Is Friday]

Did you let yourself go, and that's why Staff docked you? heh.

I stopped posting selfies for a while. Big mistake.

[manipura]

I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted.

So... you've played over a hundred characters and you've only had, like, one or two in a clan? Dayum.

Maybe a touch more than 1%?  I'm a grammar-girl and a spelling-Nazi, not a math-whiz. 
However, yes...two clanned characters in ten or so years.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't know how much karma I have. I have enough.

If it were up to me, staff would have a quota of mage roles, gemmed mages would be more accepted in southern society, and karma would allow you to play non-magicker classes with more skills, and races. All mages would be spec app.

[Harmless]

Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

So, the only recourse I have is that I should special app/role app my way into some kind of power, or try to be patient to achieve it from the ground up. Unfortunately, as staff have killed me twice before I could do it from the ground up, it appears I will have to special app it.

I looked over my old account notes. The only time I've ever gotten notes on my PCs were when they joined clans, which was Akai Sjir once and GMH otherwise. Otherwise, no notes at all.

So this thread basically confirmed all of my suspicions, if I take the recent players' postings into account. Thanks everyone for enlightening me.

I have karma.  All four points came before I ever took a leadership role and a -teeny- minority of my characters have been clanned.  Teeny as in, less than 1% of my total characters have been in a clan.

Don't be so sure that your assumptions are correct, based on what a few people have posted.

Assumptions? It's what some people are saying in the thread.

I feel like any more karma than I have would probably require me to show some kind of leadership skills.

...
It's sort of funny, because the high-karma roles are generally isolated, but it makes sense that showing yourself capable of leadership roles would be among the best ways to show staff that you can be trusted.

I looked back over my karma, and most of it was by requesting/accepting a role, doing it justice, and getting a pat on the head when that PC died/stored.

So, the conclusion I came to was that there is a subset of players who do this and get karma... so far, I have not been in clans very often. It's maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 PCs. As I said, I have gotten some nice notes on those PCs, but only on those PCs. Since Karma assessment relies partly on account notes, I am putting two and two together and making an observation, not an assumption.

Also, to be fair, I play minor characters precisely because I know I can't really inform staff about what I'm doing. So I don't mind; they always approve my spec-apps after alll!

There are also people like you who aren't taking leadership roles and are getting karma. Also an observation, but I am not sure following Zoan's advice (or yours) is going to help me, whereas I think going for a role with power and responsibility might help me, since the point of the thread was the factor of "how often am I being seen and noticed by staff?" If nobody notices what I'm doing, then nobody can judge if I meet specific criteria that take data and observations to make a conclusion about: familiarity with the game setting, evidence that they handle magick well, etc etc.

Now, here is an assumption for you. I might assume that players like Zoan and Manipura are more charismatic in game than I am. Here's another assumption: I bet you and Zoan receive more kudos than I do. Are you going to share your anecdotal experience and prove me right or wrong on that?

[Dakota]

If you want Karma, play in a staff sponsored role. Join a NOBLE HOUSE... Why? Because they're the front lines of city plots. I bet if you special app'd an Oashi stone/water gicker and played well and were active you'd get a few points. Visible roles where you deal w. magick, clan hierarchy and get thrown into plots.... Roles I can't really play bc I'm off-peak and can disappear w. work.

Karma assessment works fine I think... Although it would be nice though if player kudos worked towards it a little.

I think it's a good system we have on one hand.  On the other, it's really strange to see how it's given out...  I got 2 karma (pre-new system) for my first real character that didn't do much.  Then I played the last mega d-elf raider in Arm for a year.  Was pro-active, followed docs, got loads of kudos, set up RPTs regularly, led and tried to do all the right things yet only got 1 karma... (which I lost on another PC for doing something stupid for lulz).

I once thought I could get karma if I played a gicker. Ppl said: "If you want Karma, play a magicker!" Sweet. So I did and found that I learned MORE about magick in the gameworld as a mundane... than as a gicker. The gicker just provided a difference perspective and let me learn about it more codedly... Regardless I didn't earn karma.

Just use special app's. That's the evener. Besides, it makes the game more fun once you stop giving a shit about / hoping for / imagining you deserve / playing for / karma.

[Inks]

Just wanted to say I have never had a problem with the Karma system personally. I have never met a max karma type yet that didn't have me in awe of their slick RP.

I have karma,  not much, but have never felt hard done by.

[Nyr]

When staff review account notes:

-Do they review more than just your account notes? Do they look at old requests, in other words?

Absolutely.

-Do they add new account notes at the time of reviewing (like, Oh, I remember this PC well, I'll add this note now and then compile and send to the player)?

Sometimes yes.  Sometimes no.  It depends on whether there's something missing that should be there.

Kol: I have seen the list ad nauseum and I agree with every component of it. What isn't on the list is the factors surrounding how often a player will be evaluated on those issues (asides from account notes).

At our own discretion, pretty much.

[Zoltan]

I thought the karma system was a bit wonky before the change, and I appreciated that they decided to go with something a bit more... codified. I have some anecdotal experience to throw into the ring. I'm fairly certain that all of my karma was gained "pre-change", but I think my lack of new karma has less to do with the new policy and more to do with my severe lack of actually playing. And when I do play I'm either 1) terribly obscure, or 2) completely and utterly pissing away dream roles. I definitely feel like I've destroyed some staff goodwill by my constant quitting. What I'm thinking is that old, pre-change karma is somewhat sticky, as I would expect some of mine to be gone due to completely failing at IG leadership, role follow-through, etc. So maybe you don't get your account scanned periodically, you only get noticed when you submit a request for notes, be very visible IG, or fuck things up horribly. I've just been in the "meh" range for the past few years.

I got my first karma point after my first character died. My first character was a fairly long-lived Bynner who became a sergeant and was involved in some plotz. I was also in regular communication with my staffers before everybody got all hardcore about reports. This strikes me as one of those definite cases of being the "squeaky wheel"--I was right up in the imms' faces during that first PC.

I then played in obscurity for a while, doing a couple of independents. I got my second, third, and fourth karma points in seemingly one bundle sometime while I was playing my fourth character, an independent 'Rinthi hoodlum. He was definitely one of my better characters, and though I don't really remember reporting to staff (and I wasn't part of any clan of any sort), I do remember receiving a positive note about my role-play and general ability to "keep it real" in ICly dangerous situations. I'm no twink, and the only thing that edges me toward power-gamey-ness is when I'm playing a magicker who doesn't have jack shit else to do. I don't know if my points were from imms observing a trend or from some staffers happening to see me "winning" at Armageddon with that PC.

I then played a fairly powerful, long-lived whiran. With this character, I remember being fairly on top of my bios and reports. As I recall, most of his staff/staff plot-related action was primarily as an independent-ish character. I tried to play the ever-loving fuck out of this character, and I remember generally receiving positive feedback in my reports to staffers. But no more karma points, even though I was playing my first truly codedly powerful character. I figure that I was either overlooked, unknowingly participated in some cheese, or they figured I was good at that level and never bothered to say so because I've never asked for karma before (I don't even have my review flag on). Perhaps there's some conservatism at play in handing out karma in general, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I received my fifth and sixth karma over the course of playing a certain sponsored Byn sergeant-cum-lieutenant. That was without a doubt my most visible role of any serious length of time or consequence, and I was right up in staff's grill the entire time. I think this was the time I received most of my semi-detailed notes, all positive (I don't actually have many account notes at all, from what I remember). So at that time I was very active, very visible, and absolutely loving my character and the characters around him. I was also communicating with staff very frequently. I don't think it hurt that I was provided with ample opportunity again and again to demonstrate my OOC knowledge of the game and trustworthiness. I felt like I had a really good "working relationship" with the staffers while not knowing any of them OOCly. Though I was fairly active in the community on the GDB, I only talked to a very small handful of players outside of the game, and it was generally not about the game. I mention this because 1) I don't think OOC playerbase popularity had anything to do with my good feedback and karma, and 2) I had a good relationship with staff that was purely imm-player, and not some odd, nefarious string-pulling or what have you.

A while after that character got burninated, I was invited onto staff. It was a very cool experience, but I didn't stick around for long. I bring it up now because my karma points have remained at six for all of the years since. That's not a complaint, as I feel fine where I'm at. But if you want a resounding "you seem okay and trustworthy" from the staff, getting invited onto staff is pretty much the best you can get. But I didn't get eight karma on my old player account, and I wasn't raised to eight after my time on staff had ended. Again, I didn't ask to be raised or for a review or anything in the years since. I think this comes back to "flying under the radar" as I outlined earlier, and a need to avoid power-creep when it comes to high karma roles. Why give out eight karma unless it's for an active, trustworthy player? Best way to limit the number of high karma classes is to just avoid giving away high karma points for any old reason.

I'm also bringing up my staff-land foray to be able to mention why I never gave out a karma point (or even recommended one, that I can remember) myself. I simply felt like any reason I would have to boost someone's karma would be insufficient, and I was afraid of seeming like I played favorites. I wasn't much of a "voyeur" when I was an imm, so I wasn't hanging around there watching people be epic 24/7. I generally dealt with reports and ran some animations for events and the like. I tended to keep my distance, so I couldn't justify raising karma or offering any other real boons. When I got a bit more involved with some of the clans I was helping to run, I tended toward some unconscious favoritism with my animations because I preferred jumping into some NPCs over others*. I have to wonder if some storytellers feel like that sometimes, too.

It became clear to me before long that I was a far better player than a staffer. Alas, now I'm not even that great of a player. At least I never rage-quit or got serious sour grapes about anything.

Anyway, the bottom line is that every single person who has had karma added or removed is going to have wildly different stories because some of us have been playing for years. It would be interesting if the somewhat-new player experience is markedly different than that of some of the vets who have already posted in this thread. Then again, this topic strikes me as a little salty for any noobs wanting to put their best foot forward in this community.   From my anecdotal experience, leadership roles + not being a twink + communicating in a friendly, professional manner to staff = karmas. I have not special-app'd a role ever, except to play a single skill-boosted mundane once that had opened up as an option. So I can't confirm nor deny that showing you're good with a spec app helps you get noticed. For additional reference, I've been playing since 2007.

* Not that my statements and actions as those animated NPCs were actually "favorable" for the PCs; they just tended to get more "face time" which is in itself a form of favoritism.

[Nyr]

Well... I am seeing pretty clearly that demonstrating the ability to handle power is associated with receiving karma. I am making this assessment based on what I know of the characters shaleah, IF, and so on play, as I have played with a lot of you.

You may be misunderstanding what karma is.

Karma is a measure of staff's trust in a given player's:

  - Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
      by playing roles realistically and acting responsibly with the code.
    - Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which
      the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.
    - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
      show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
      enriching the game world for other players.

It's a measure of trust.  Having "some good" doesn't outweigh "some bad".  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.  If someone's a decent roleplayer (when they roleplay) but they have habitual problematic qualities, they aren't going to be the kind of person that we say, "you know what...this player that continually abuses the code totally deserves more karma," or "this player that explodes on the GDB every time their PCs die would absolutely love playing higher karma roles and doing the exact same thing with those!"  Needing tons of improvement in one area (your ability to roleplay and your communication, specifically, since those impact nearly every other area of the game) can typically stunt your karma.  Conversely, years after bad notes, players can and have shown major strides in improvement.

Maybe your only recourse isn't to app for stuff, but to review your account notes you already have, your past requests, and all other possible things that could portray you as a not so great player, and then improve those things....

...not because you are obsessed with getting karma (and quick point to note...it kinda looks like you are...) but because you want to be a better player.  Or at least because you want to pretend to be a better player.

The way you are approaching karma looks a lot like this old conversation.  I'll quote the original opinion and then responses intended for it.

My personal opinion on the change in the karma system, is that it's going to fall flat on its face. I wish it would work and we could find a balance but most players only see the good parts of their RP and staff isn't always there to watch, what was once blamed on staff not paying enough attention, shit luck, playtimes, the 'I don't play enough leaders' excuse etc will now have a very subjective list of guidelines which players will be arguing that they meet and a neglect of their karma will now be translated into them feeling unappreciated.

Longevity, I got that.
Good communication, I'm well above the average I think and don't miss needed reports to clan staff. That's two.
Ability to roleplay, I think I'm fun and interesting to most.. it's the reason I'm here after all. There's three.
Proven understanding of magick and its place in the game world, yup, staff has even given me props on this. Four.
Proven understandings of cultural and racial structures, no account notes about this but as I've played some cultural roles with no negative opinions from staff, despite even asking for them. Five.
Contributes to the game, I'd like to think so. I've done tribal crafts and helped with tons of bugs by bringing them into the light and then being used as a test dummy etc Also, I've received some kudos from players that I'm proud of and been involved in a lot of neat plots that encompassed tons of people. Let's call that six.
Leadership, wow, I've played a TON of leaders. Some very famous and well known. Seven. Bank.

Where's my sorc/mul, kthx.

This is what I feel/fear is going to happen and it's only going to further draw the line between staff and players. I'm also a negative person, can ya tell?

Yes, there may be points of contention with this system.  But there are points of contention now.

As always awarding karma is at the discretion of staff.

I've no doubt that there will be a learning curve here for players and staff alike.  This may result in some changes to the system as we go.  Already today, due to player feedback we've adjusted the category names slightly, this is a good thing.  As we get the code in place and working we'll be able to give you a better idea of how exactly it will work, for now you have the blueprint we're working on.  When we have everything firmly in place the webpage will reflect exactly how the system will work.

Player view - Staff view.  There will likely always be a difference.

[Kalai]

I used to want criticism, feedback, all that.

Then I spent 5 years in college, took on far too much anxiety and debt, and my playstyle got ... more subject to outside circumstances.  And in general I started reacting more poorly to criticism.

Now I don't even want to look at my account notes because there's been enough to displease me in how I've played, that I don't really want to deal with criticism from an external source, if I've attracted notice enough for that even. Getting karma / kudos / positive responses does make me happy, but critique hurts more than it should, and I'm liable to do the equivalent of never asking for a pay raise.

While usually not extremely isolated, I tend to only get deeply involved with a small number of people due to my own introversion, and rarely go for anything like power or leadership - but I haven't been completely ignored for karma and kudos even with a mildly antisocial playstyle. 

[Harmless]

Meh. Nyr, I only care at all about karma once every year or two. Then I stop caring about it for months or years, depending. I have cared a little more about karma lately, of course, but is it my only concern? Not at all. Will it matter to me even in two weeks? Doubtful, because hopefully by then my special app will be looked at.

I don't often see karma discussions on the GDB, to be honest. I'm here on the GDB a lot, it's not at all like there's a karma discussion thread every day.

So, I brought it up, because it's that one time of the year where I give a shit... note, I -almost- gave a shit about karma a few months ago, submitted an account notes request, then later cancelled it because for a few more months I didn't give a shit about karma and I was enjoying the game as usual.

So, please, don't accuse me of only caring about karma... based on a thread i made now. I want to discuss something, and you're making assumptions about who I am as a player.

[Is Friday]

Man, not everything said is a big deal.

[Harmless]

Anyway, there are three takeaways in summary from my requests and notes:

1.) Make less angry rants in my requests. Don't complain to staff in my requests. Keep requests straightforward and simple.
2.) Don't suicide characters I should store instead. (This comes from an old account note from about a year ago. I have followed that principle now for the past year)
3.) Be Civil on the GDB. I am sincerely trying.

Lessons that don't apply to me:

1.) Don't blow up on the GDB after a PC dies. That's only happened to me once, on my first PC, over 10 years ago.
2.) Don't abuse the code. I have never done this. I have filed many bug reports. I don't abuse bugs when I find them. There was even a time I was pretty sure I knew how to reliably crash the MUD, I never abused it, and I may have caused an exact total of 1 crash. As soon as I suspected there might be a way to crash the server, I reported it and even wished up to inform staff... yeah, as an amateur coder myself, abusing code isn't my thing.

[Nyr]

I made assumptions based on the way you posted in this thread, here and now.  Which (as you say) is a time in which you are giving a shit about karma--so much so that you're detailing your beefs with the karma system (which are mostly that you don't feel you've been assessed properly), asking everyone how they got karma, then using those anecdotes to try and piece together what you should do to get karma.  Karma is not an end in itself.  Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player.

[Harmless]

Right... well, anyway, I'm going to go back to not giving a shit about karma very soon, so don't worry.

[manipura]

So, the conclusion I came to was that there is a subset of players who do this and get karma... so far, I have not been in clans very often. It's maybe 1 out of every 4 or 5 PCs. As I said, I have gotten some nice notes on those PCs, but only on those PCs. Since Karma assessment relies partly on account notes, I am putting two and two together and making an observation, not an assumption.

Also, to be fair, I play minor characters precisely because I know I can't really inform staff about what I'm doing. So I don't mind; they always approve my spec-apps after alll!

There are also people like you who aren't taking leadership roles and are getting karma. Also an observation, but I am not sure following Zoan's advice (or yours) is going to help me, whereas I think going for a role with power and responsibility might help me, since the point of the thread was the factor of "how often am I being seen and noticed by staff?" If nobody notices what I'm doing, then nobody can judge if I meet specific criteria that take data and observations to make a conclusion about: familiarity with the game setting, evidence that they handle magick well, etc etc.

Now, here is an assumption for you. I might assume that players like Zoan and Manipura are more charismatic in game than I am. Here's another assumption: I bet you and Zoan receive more kudos than I do. Are you going to share your anecdotal experience and prove me right or wrong on that?

Not sure how this will prove or disprove anything, but I've got a grand total of five kudos from players and one from staff.

Two of the five player kudos were for unclanned/non-leadership characters.  One of those went on eventually to join a clan, but the kudos came before that.
The other three player kudos were for a PC that was clanned and eventually took a leadership role (my one and only leadership role).  However, all three of those kudos came from players who knew me before I took that role.


Also, considering the vast majority of the comments on my account notes are things like...
- He seems to think and feel a lot, even when percieved to be alone. It's really the most enjoyable character I've had the chance to watch out of about ten so far. I find myself wanting to bring the world more alive for it.
- Lots and lots of hemotes when sneaking around, even when completely alone. Nice.
- He's been playing a while. He's consistently one of the most entertaining to watch, and he is one of the few I've seen not to sink into idle skilling while alone,
keeping the bar of RP high.
- Alot of great solo-rp while crafting. Indepth, using thinks, feels and adding some nice realism.
- Consistent solo-player even when just engaging in mundane activities like haggling with shopkeeps.
- Great RP when hunting/skinning, is very thoughtful with where her character is in the world and what she's doing.

...I don't think you can fairly assume that I play a whole slew of charismatic 'people-persons'.  So like you said in a response to Nyr, please don't assume anything about me as a player.

So, please, don't accuse me of only caring about karma... based on a thread i made now. I want to discuss something, and you're making assumptions about who I am as a player.

Maybe Nyr was making an observation based on what you've posted in this thread.  Not an assumption.


Edited to separate the quotes a little better and to avoid any confusion over who said what.

[Harmless]

Manipura: The solo RP related notes you have are great examples. I actually received one similar one myself for my solo RP while hunting on an old PC, so maybe I can also try to return to my old ways of RPing solo scenes in an effort to get noticed by staff. Thanks for proving that you can be noticed by staff when alone and not in a clan, you have definitively done that.

However, I can also point out that 3/4 of the kudos you received from players were in a leadership role. The staff kudos is an outlier, I've never even heard of a staff kudos. You must be an excellent solo RPer.

But in any case, fleshing out what my PC is doing when they are alone is a good suggestion. I'll follow up on that one too. Thanks.

Oh, and by the way, in my mind, charismatic does not necessitate a people person... in a way, I think you emoting/roleplaying your haggling, for instance, could relate to being able to roleplay charisma well. So is "being entertaining to watch," but now we're talking semantics.

[Desertman]

It appears the overall issue that Harmless has with the karma allocation system is that players who play during peak times, in clans that interact with a lot of people/staff, and in general are a more integral part of the game overall, have a better chance of being seen and getting karma/recognized for their contributions to the game.

If you don't play with many people, aren't part of clans that do a lot/make an impact on the playerbase in order to be recognized by staff, or in general aren't about enough/at the right times to really be seen/interact with other players on a meaningful level.....you might not get seen by staff enough to get evaluated properly for karma.

I see the issue. I agree that players who fit this criteria might not have as many chances to get evaluated for increases in karma.

With that being said, I don't look at karma as a way to get access to super awesome powerful guilds and races so I can be teh uber leetz in my own mind.

I like to think that staff awards karma to players to give them more options to bring to life some of the more rare and possibly more "fantastical" facets of the game world for the improvement of the overall fun of the playerbase.

We don't give fireball mages to newbies, but we give them to vets, because vets are expected to take that role, not twink the crap out of it, and instead use the uniqueness to add to the game world and the overall enjoyment of their fellow players, and then finally themselves. (The same goes for any karma required role/race in my opinion. You are being trusted with a more powerful tool to make the game more fun in general. If you don't buy into that and think it is all just about your own personal fun and screw everyone else, I don't want you playing karma races/guilds personally.)

You don't play sorcerers to be uber leet for example. When you are play a sorcerer, you are basically playing one to be a semi-demi-god in the world and really create some interesting plots and/or quest lines (if I dare use such a term) for other players, while also having fun yourself. I put "yourself" last, because with this sort of role, you are almost always going to end up being a villain at some point, and in some way hunted to your death. That is the way the world is setup for this karma role. You don't have to be evil to be a villain, you just have to be. When you create this sort of role, you know that eventually your prime directive is almost certainly going to be to be the "boss" for the "heroes" to finally take down.

My point is....yes...those players who don't interact with anyone, don't join clans, and don't play in peak times may have a hard time getting that sorcerer karma. That is unfortunate and I actually have empathy for their situation. But, I don't think it is hurting the game any for there not to be a sorcerer on at 2AM with six other people online spam casting their spells in a cave alone twinking it up and offering no interaction and/or positive impact on the playerbase with their super awesome high karma PC.

I would prefer those PC's be given to the players that are most able, capable, and willing to have a positive impact on the playerbase as a whole/to a maximized degree.

[Desertman]

Manipura: The solo RP related notes you have are great examples. I actually received one similar one myself for my solo RP while hunting on an old PC, so maybe I can also try to return to my old ways of RPing solo scenes in an effort to get noticed by staff. Thanks for proving that you can be noticed by staff when alone and not in a clan, you have definitively done that.

However, I can also point out that 3/4 of the kudos you received from players were in a leadership role. The staff kudos is an outlier, I've never even heard of a staff kudos. You must be an excellent solo RPer.

But in any case, fleshing out what my PC is doing when they are alone is a good suggestion. I'll follow up on that one too. Thanks.

Oh, and by the way, in my mind, charismatic does not necessitate a people person... in a way, I think you emoting/roleplaying your haggling, for instance, could relate to being able to roleplay charisma well. So is "being entertaining to watch," but now we're talking semantics.

I have played numerous leadership roles over the years. A lot of my characters got A LOT of staff interaction.

Manipura (my wife) and I have the exact same karma level.

She got that karma (the same karma I have) without ever playing in a single clan.

Every karma point she has, which equals mine after 15 years of leadership roles and tons of staff interaction, came from playing indy solo PC's that were for the most part strange hermits.

She is my wife and I am obligated to say good things about her, but, her solo-RP is better than my non-solo-RP.

My point is that she has the exact same karma I do, and she got it playing the exact opposite of myself in terms of roles and staff interaction, and we are both 10+ year vets.

[Nyr]

Anyway, there are three takeaways in summary from my requests and notes:
If you've i

1.) Make less angry rants in my requests. Don't complain to staff in my requests. Keep requests straightforward and simple.

Just at a glance here...make less angry rants?  Why not aim higher than that?  Try for "no angry rants."  That's a good thing to aim for, no?  Complaints are fine if they're the proper kind--player complaints or staff complaints--and we'll let you know if you're being frivolous about either, at which point it's up to you to decide what to do.

2.) Don't suicide characters I should store instead. (This comes from an old account note from about a year ago. I have followed that principle now for the past year)

Yes, this is a good thing to do.

3.) Be Civil on the GDB. I am sincerely trying.

This is a good thing to do as well.

Lessons that don't apply to me:

How can a lesson not apply to you?  Those lessons apply to me!  Are you saying it doesn't apply because the specific example was so specific that you haven't done that in particular, therefore the overall point doesn't apply?  The point of any example here is to lay out a broader guideline, and just give a glimpse of what kind of thought process goes into reviewing someone's karma.  There are literally pages and pages of things players can do that are bad that I don't have the time to go over, and pages and pages of things that players can do that are good that I don't have the time to go over.

These are all great things to work towards, and doing all of them still isn't a guarantee of getting karma.  There is no guarantee.  There is no list you can check off to get more karma.  While we do have more staff-side documentation that goes into the categories of karma awarding and docking, it's staff-side documentation for a reason (to prevent players just going down a list on their own and arguing over what their karma should be, even though that still happens sometimes).  That's why I pointed out that old player post about it where the player was ticking through the categories and saying "I've got this, so I should have karma!"  Now, that particular post in question was saying they'd have 7 karma because they went down the whole list, but even if you're doing this to any one category, you're doing the same thing.

It ultimately comes down to staff deciding whether you fit the requirements for karma (whether to increase, decrease, or leave it the same), and at that point it is up to you to trust in whether we are applying the same standards to you that we would to any player that was doing the same things (good or bad) that you were.

[manipura]

Actually, those 3 out of 5 player kudos were not from a leadership role.
As I said, that PC did go on to take a leadership role, but the three kudos she got came before that, from players who never knew me as a leader.

The other two player kudos were for two different PCs, one never in a clan and the other only in a clan a short time and unclanned when the kudos were received.

The staff kudos was for an unclanned PC as well.

Not trying to be nit-picky or anything, just clarifying facts.

[Harmless]

Phew. Nyr, please stop taking every little way I word things and then turning into a two paragraph reply... when I say "don't apply," I meant "not specifically helpful to me." If I don't blow up on the GDB after one of my PCs die, being told not to do that is, by definition, not helpful. Another way of putting it is "not applicable." Sheesh. Of course people shouldn't blow up on the GDB after they die, that's inappropriate for several reasons, some of them being that it violates the rules of sharing IC info on the GDB.

Anyway..

[Nyr]

Okay.  Good luck on your thread.

[Harmless]

Dman:

It appears the overall issue that Harmless has with the karma allocation system is that players who play during peak times, in clans that interact with a lot of people/staff, and in general are a more integral part of the game overall, have a better chance of being seen and getting karma/recognized for their contributions to the game.

If you don't play with many people, aren't part of clans that do a lot/make an impact on the playerbase in order to be recognized by staff, or in general aren't about enough/at the right times to really be seen/interact with other players on a meaningful level.....you might not get seen by staff enough to get evaluated properly for karma.

I see the issue. I agree that players who fit this criteria might not have as many chances to get evaluated for increases in karma.

With that being said, I don't look at karma as a way to get access to super awesome powerful guilds and races so I can be teh uber leetz in my own mind.

I like to think that staff awards karma to players to give them more options to bring to life some of the more rare and possibly more "fantastical" facets of the game world for the improvement of the overall fun of the playerbase.

We don't give fireball mages to newbies, but we give them to vets, because vets are expected to take that role, not twink the crap out of it, and instead use the uniqueness to add to the game world and the overall enjoyment of their fellow players, and then finally themselves. (The same goes for any karma required role/race in my opinion. You are being trusted with a more powerful tool to make the game more fun in general. If you don't buy into that and think it is all just about your own personal fun and screw everyone else, I don't want you playing karma races/guilds personally.)

You don't play sorcerers to be uber leet for example. When you are play a sorcerer, you are basically playing one to be a semi-demi-god in the world and really create some interesting plots and/or quest lines (if I dare use such a term) for other players, while also having fun yourself. I put "yourself" last, because with this sort of role, you are almost always going to end up being a villain at some point, and in some way hunted to your death. That is the way the world is setup for this karma role. You don't have to be evil to be a villain, you just have to be. When you create this sort of role, you know that eventually your prime directive is almost certainly going to be to be the "boss" for the "heroes" to finally take down.

My point is....yes...those players who don't interact with anyone, don't join clans, and don't play in peak times may have a hard time getting that sorcerer karma. That is unfortunate and I actually have empathy for their situation. But, I don't think it is hurting the game any for there not to be a sorcerer on at 2AM with six other people online spam casting their spells in a cave alone twinking it up and offering no interaction and/or positive impact on the playerbase with their super awesome high karma PC.

I would prefer those PC's be given to the players that are most able, capable, and willing to have a positive impact on the playerbase as a whole/to a maximized degree.

Dman: Thanks for your reply. I don't disagree with you about the value of karma-required roles, and how they should be handed out. I totally understand the idea that staff should only put roles with fantastical powers into the hands of players they trust. On the whole, I agree with the karma system, I think there should be a system. I'm also glad to see that you empathize with the difficulties of certain playing styles and habits and being visible. I am also glad to see that you, as a player with more than 1 karma, are sharing that you have played multiple leadership roles. Again, every piece of evidence we could possibly present here is anecdotal, but yours is in line with many others'.

We agree that manipura is an outlier from that, but manipura, you explained it very well and provided the proof in terms of your account notes and such what you're doing differently. I can freely admit that when I am alone I rarely throw out emotes and thinks and feels to flesh out the scene. Often it's because I don't have enough energy or interest to do that, and I can't be sure staff are watching. Of the characters where I have gotten notes for my thinks and solo RP, I was in clans. I had an n=1 of players to go off of in wondering if there was a causal relationship there, but now that I have n=5 or so good responses from the playerbase from this thread I started that are pretty consistent with that (again, manipura being the one outlier I've seen so far), then I can pretty comfortably call it a trend.

Anyway, getting karma isn't a goal. But people here also note that they do take roles with leadership responsibility and power and are happy when they get karma. That's a difference that they understand. I understand it too. I am a little confrontational in my posts here but that's just how I am, yo. Kinda comes with the territory of my culture and where I grew up, so I apologize to anybody who thinks I'm salty. I am quite literally coated in salt.

[Norcal]

Not sure how I feel about all of this. I go back and forth.

Karma is a bit of a catch 22 sometimes. There is a karma point for leadership, but you need to get a leadership role (few and far between) to achieve it. At least that is how I understand it. On the other hand, you want to make sure the leaders are good players.

Armageddon is a game where PCs learn by failure. I think players also learn by failure, and the learning curve is steep.  But if you fail, that sometimes equates to poor play and possible bad notes, even if your failure has shown you what -not- to do in the future.

Getting better at most games requires coaching and the ability to help a player towards their potential. Imagine if I just sent my son out to play rugby with no coach. He would likely not play well and possibly get hurt. Yet at the same time it is not reasonable to think that staff have the time to work with so many players at that level.

I am enjoying the original submissions, because they give me some great examples that I can try and emulate in game. For me karma is not something that I want for it's own sake. There are only a few roles above level 3 that interest me. Karma is more a validation that I am doing what I set out to do, and that is have fun and play this game well.