Crim-code and such

[manonfire]

I've never been able to figure out why, in a despotic meatgrinder like Allanak, virtual citizens or soldiers give two shits if there's a scuffle in the street.

[Dresan]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!

Given the numbers of milita to the number of commoners, slaves and everyone else I don't think there should be that many npc soliders roaming around. We are talking about what? 20k soliders to a city of  a million people?

That said, if there were no soldier NPC in allanak at all...it would most likely turn into a bloodbath. I love the idea but some people do enjoy the relative safety the city provides. The thing about solider PC is that if they hold still they are just as easy to kill as anyone else so leaving it just to them isn't the best of ideas.  At the same time I wish getting wanted wouldn't mean ever so many npc soliders jumping on your sad ass. It really does feel like finding a place where there isn't a templar or soldier in the adjacent room is a needle in a haystack.

I keep thinking there should be check points around the city instead so many solider NPCs loitering everyone, there would still be soliders pratrolling and such and standing guard but just not as many, however again definitely more soldier check pointsa t key locations. If you are wanted, you would not be able to leave, enter, or travel throughout the city very easily without hide/sneak. At night you should get crim-coded if there is a soldier IN the room with you, not only in the adjacent room since rooms could represent several blocks of street.

I'm all for making things more dangerous but I suppose I would not want it being completely easy either.

[Is Friday]

I've never been able to figure out why, in a despotic meatgrinder like Allanak, virtual citizens or soldiers give two shits if there's a scuffle in the street.

[Nyr]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!

I laid out what you were suggesting over here, except you'd go a step farther and remove all NPCs.  I tend to think that'd be a lot worse.

The amount of players won't affect the issue one bit (unless the amount of players = 0, in which case the problem is...technically...resolved).  A system that provides a backstop is better than none at all.

[Kryos]

I've never been able to figure out why, in a despotic meatgrinder like Allanak, virtual citizens or soldiers give two shits if there's a scuffle in the street.

And to make a point on this:  consider how many classic, and even amazing stories are given flight by the fact that the law did *not* give a )!(# historically.  With our version of handling criminals via the nuclear option, classic literature would be a lot less interesting.  Example:

Romeo and Juliet:  two houses with personal guards go out and stab the shit out of each other a few nights because why not?  And the police don't care.  In Arm, they'd all be dead/arrested the first time they tried.  And that might be fine in Tuluk(except the warrens, which should feel a lot more like the Rinth), but it just falls flat in Allanak.

Not only should the police not give a damn when indies/nobodies/racial minorities are stabbing each other(why waste my life over a total piece of crap doing something to another piece of crap), but it shouldn't be inclined to get involved when Noble family thugs are beating on each other, or especially beating on some one less important.  They should care when its either too obvious to be ignored, someone way out of line, when a Templar says to care, or its a tangible threat to the city.  That's not even mentioning the possibility for bribery/corruption that is lost on both sides with things as they are.

I don't think anyone's arguing pull the plug, I think they're arguing nuance.  Properly orchestrated crim code would actually give even *more* power to those with political power in the game, as well as a bit more to those with simply coded power.  

When I play in Allanak, if I saw a Borsail Sergeant walk into the Gaj, cut the throat of some breed sitting at the bar, then toss their body to the ground and claim the stool I'd think "as it should be" as a player.  If I walked in to a scene where a Tor Scorpion and a Borsail Wyvern were settling their dispute with a duel on Stonecrafter's without the zerg of soldiers rushing in like a tactical nuke, I'd be giddy.  

But if they threw down on Caravan or in the Bazaar, and got drug off, another "as it should be."  Nuance is hardly removal, change is hardly bad.  And the current crim code does stifle story telling to a large degree.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!

I laid out what you were suggesting over here, except you'd go a step farther and remove all NPCs.  I tend to think that'd be a lot worse.

The amount of players won't affect the issue one bit (unless the amount of players = 0, in which case the problem is...technically...resolved).  A system that provides a backstop is better than none at all.

Yeh, I wouldn't remove NPCs at all - that's an insane idea. However, creating shades of grey is something that we should be stretching towards, however that's done. The Night code might be alright (I confess to never having used it), but it requires night, and just the right route. I'd far rather see a nuanced, developed crime code come into play, with all sorts of scenarios, where you can count the law enforcement result on a couple hands, but the scenarios that opens up far exceeds the responses.

You could do a simple number system, where 4 trumps 2, and 10 trumps 9. Clan, race, room type, room #, Origin, armed, unarmed, all added or subtracted to a score, and the law could just respond to that, arresting however had the higher number.

[Sav]

And to make a point on this:  consider how many classic, and even amazing stories are given flight by the fact that the law did *not* give a )!(# historically.  With our version of handling criminals via the nuclear option, classic literature would be a lot less interesting.  Example:

Romeo and Juliet:  two houses with personal guards go out and stab the shit out of each other a few nights because why not?  And the police don't care.  In Arm, they'd all be dead/arrested the first time they tried.  And that might be fine in Tuluk(except the warrens, which should feel a lot more like the Rinth), but it just falls flat in Allanak.

Oh man oh man, let's do this. *cracks Shakespeare nerd knuckles*

Actually, Romeo & Juliet only works as a story because of crim code. Let's play this out.

So, the play starts with a buncha Montague and Capulet servants taunting the hell out of each other because their Houses are enemies, but they aren't actually fighting yet because they will get CRIMMED, bro.

ABRAHAM: Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?
SAMPSON: I do bite my thumb, sir.
ABRAHAM: Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?
SAMPSON [Aside to GREGORY]: Is the law of our side, if I say
ay?
GREGORY: No.
SAMPSON: No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir, but I
bite my thumb, sir.

"YOU TALKIN' SHIT?"
"FUCK YEAH I'M TALKIN' SHIT."
"YOU TALKIN' SHIT?"
"Uhhh hey bro will I get arrested if I punch that guy in the face?"
"Uh, YEAH, bro, this ain't the Gaj."
"Oh. Uh. YEAH WE TALKIN' SHIT BUT... NOT AT... YOU?"

Then they fight.

LORD TEMPLAR PRINCE IMMEDIATELY APPEARS. HE IS PISSED.

Three civil brawls, bred of an airy word,
By thee, old Capulet, and Montague,
Have thrice disturb'd the quiet of our streets,
And made Verona's ancient citizens
Cast by their grave beseeming ornaments,
To wield old partisans, in hands as old,
Canker'd with peace, to part your canker'd hate:
If ever you disturb our streets again,
Your lives shall pay the forfeit of the peace.

Lord Templar Prince: I'm pardoning you nobles I guess but IF YOU FIGHT EVEN ONCE MORE YOU'RE ALL GONNA DIE. ALL OF YOU. FUCK THIS NONSENSE.

Romeo, a Montague noble, promptly kills Tybalt, a Capulet noble.

Romeo, away, be gone!
The citizens are up, and Tybalt slain.
Stand not amazed: the prince will doom thee death,
If thou art taken: hence, be gone, away!

Benvolio: AW FUCK BRO YOU GOT CRIMMED, RUN!

....let Romeo hence in haste,
Else, when he's found, that hour is his last.

Yeah, he's super crimmed.

Romeo being crimmed sets up the ENTIRE REST OF THE STORY! He can't come back to Verona because he will get immediately stomped by a bunch of half-giant guards. Instead he has to hide out in Mantua/Red Storm.

Juliet cooks up a super stupid idea that she's gonna fake her death and then join Romeo in Storm, except Romeo's got Barrier up and doesn't hear the plan. When Balthasar beetles over to Storm and is like WHOA ROMEO, JULIET IS DEAD, Romeo uses all his stealth skills to get back into Verona.

STEALTH CHECK FAIL.

This is that banish'd haughty Montague,
That murder'd my love's cousin, with which grief,
It is supposed, the fair creature died;
And here is come to do some villanous shame
To the dead bodies: I will apprehend him.

Paris is highborn militia, apparently? Anyway, Romeo kills him.

By the time Romeo and Juliet off themselves, the place is CRAWLING with guards.

The ground is bloody; search about the churchyard:
Go, some of you, whoe'er you find attach.

CRIMINAL! HALT!

Second Watchman: Here's Romeo's man; we found him in the churchyard.
First Watchman: Hold him in safety, till the prince come hither.

BAM. Romeo's bro Balthasar gets subdued by a bunch of soldiers.

The people in the street cry Romeo,
Some Juliet, and some Paris; and all run,
With open outcry toward our monument.

How did everyone in Verona hear about a bunch of people who quietly murdered themselves/each other? I dunno, man. Theatrical necessity crim code.

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Juliet and her Romeo.

"Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished" -- Lord Templar Prince is pissed, and the nobles definitely aren't all getting away with it.

So basically Romeo & Juliet is a tragic tale of warring houses and crim code.

*drops mic*

[manonfire]

Man, that's a level of commitment I can't even relate to. You people are weird.

[QuillDipper]

I was gonna be snarky but now I'm just too impressed to.

[senseofeven]

*standing ovation*

[CodeMaster]

Romeo: Stop it dude!

Romeo subdues Mercutio, despite his attempts to struggle away.

Tybalt stabs Mercutio in the neck, resulting in a scream and a shower of blood.

Mercutio chuckles: A scratch!

Romeo: Hehe.

Mercutio's eyes roll into the back of his head.
Mercutio crumples to the ground.

[Kryos]

Stuff that makes my point for me.

Thanks, Sav, for making my point for me.  If you move to kill murder someone out in a very public place, the cops should have no choice but to roll up and handle it(like I posted the first time).  Romeo got that crim flag because he was a retard and stabbed someone out in the middle of Caravan Road, equivalently.  Not only that, but the crim code in R and J was so nuanced that there wasn't a:

"A half-giant soldier enters from the every direction" x 4

When he took the first swing, ending the fight before it began.  

Huh, go figure.

And not only that, its pretty clear that since relations of the Prince old boy were involved, that's more or less why he cares to punish anyone.  The hint being that, if they were just a tad less obvious and not killing prince kin, no one would've cared.  Good, nuanced crim code and corruption in law enforcement helped the story, it didn't end it with a tac nuke detonating on the first fight scene.  

[QuillDipper]

I can't say I agree that militia wouldn't give a damn about fighting in the streets. But they probably wouldn't care about fighting in specific areas. A full on murder on Caravan's is kind of weird, but there are some places in the Commons that you really should be afraid to walk at night.

[Sav]

I have to admit I don't actually have that much of a stake in the crim code fight, I just needed to be like WAIT ACTUALLY PEOPLE TOTALLY CARE ABOUT NOBLES KILLING EACH OTHER IN SHAKESPEARE.

I do agree that stuff around the militia should be fine-tuned, though.

ETA: Not that there aren't many awesome points being made here! I've just somehow managed to avoid getting a lot of IG experience with crim code, so I can't really argue the nuances of it. I can totally argue about Shakespeare, though.

[whitt]

So since it's started to come up again...  thought I'd search-fu crim code, ahem, code.

Is there a potential, trying to keep it simple, for the current code to be modded to have just two levels of crim-codeness?

1) Watched
2) Wanted

First time you break the law you are Watched.

Break the law while you are Watched and you become Wanted.

So:
Amos the pick-pocket blows an attempt.  The fat merchant points and hollers "Thief!".  Amos is now Watched in the city of Allanak.
Amos then moves a few blocks down, and blows another attempt, gets flagged Wanted, and the guards are SRSLY, DUDE?  WTFPWN go to jail.

also...
Amos the Bynner has nosave combat on.  He slugs Maliq the Sharp in the streets with his fist.  That first punch is assault and draws the attention of the guards.  Amos is now Wanted.
if Amos didn't have nosave combat on and hit Maliq again, then he'd go from Watched to Wanted... because now it's not just a random shove into the wall, it's a fight.

More thought required, but curious if the code can discern:
if (breaking the law) and (crim_flag == Watched)
then crim_flag = Wanted
else crim_flag = Watched

or if there's more to it.

[Jihelu]

Lets reduce crim code by 800 more at night so people get shanked and stolen from like no tomorrow on the streets!...I actually like the idea, but I see it backfiring.

[solera]

What would Allanak be like if there was a city wide hit code?

[MeTekillot]

Hit code isn't very robust.

[CodeMaster]

Lets reduce crim code by 800 more at night so people get shanked and stolen from like no tomorrow on the streets!...I actually like the idea, but I see it backfiring.

The way this would backfire, I'd imagine, is that people would start spending all of their time inside compounds and clan headquarters, socializing over the Way, and avoiding the game's shared spaces (taverns, main roads, etc.)

Even in the most PK-centric MUDs I've played, there's usually a safe room where players can feel comfortable going AFK for a second, or playing with a crappy connection without getting overwhelmed by a PK attempt.  In Arm, these safe rooms tend to be clan compounds and/or apartments, which can be stifling for player-to-player interaction and make the game feel empty.

This might be an unpopular notion in this thread, but for playability reasons, I think the crim code and other PK-mitigating factors could be even heavier-handed around taverns:

• Human soldiers (like there already are) maybe wielding bludgeoning weapons to reduce deaths
• Smaller taverns could have a squeaky door that you need to open/shut to enter
• Bouncers at the doors that might not be that tough, but would prevent projectile weapons

[Patuk]

Are you serious? The only deaths I see in taverns are those from throwing weapons, and I'm not quite sure if more than a penalty to throwing into such crowded areas is warranted. But other than that? Taverns are fine. Staff have much better things to do.

[MeTekillot]

Just give taverns doors that the barkeep will auto-close if someone leaves it open, to stop the age-old "somehow send a projectile weapon through a crowded street, through a door, through the crowd behind the door, and into my target" that is the primary tavern assassination method.

[Patuk]

unlatch door s;throw throwing amos s

Pow.

It's a lot less ridiculous than you make it out to be, anyway. It assumes you can't toss knives from right out the doorways, that bars are always fucking packed, or that people actually are behind all these crowds.

A penalty, sure. Not a full-on immunity.

[Asanadas]

Make Vennant catch the dagger and throw it back.

[RogueGunslinger]

Killing people in taverns is easy. You just have to be stronger than the 2 NPC soldiers who also show up there to stop you.

[solera]

Hit code isn't very robust.

I meani a good hit code. If you could fight barehanded on the streets of south west side Allanak without auto crim. What would it be like.