Crim-code and such

[Reiloth]

Ideally I would see crim code kicking in after a delay. Modifiers would increase or decrease the amount of time. Right now, rooms seem to be either fully populated or not populated at all. If there were degrees of population (Not populated, semi populated, fully populated). NPCs could decrease the delay, or have no effect if they are not the type to report crime. Thievery would actually be easier in fully populated rooms -- so the delay should only be decreased with multiple NPCs. Distance drawn between the nearest soldier and the crime could be determined, and that specific NPC responds to the scene of the crime.

Just some thoughts.

[Delirium]

Reiloth's idea, and/or a GTA-style incremental level of being wanted - that's my ideal world.

[Reiloth]

That could be reflected by the severity of the crime, and the amount of soldiers that respond. Thievery would draw maybe 1-2 soldiers depending on the area of town. 2-3 soldiers if it's assault with a weapon, 1-2 unarmed brawling. Offenses that are avoided are still recorded -- escaping a thievery accusation puts your description on the radar (Perhaps a snapshot of the current SDesc as seen by an NPC or Soldier). That description could be recorded at the "quartermaster" NPC, and recited on command by a Sergeant or Templar.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So, I'm home. Time to expound.

Right now, being wanted appears to be an off or on flag. The first step to this will be changing the wanted flag to a level ranging from 1 - 10. First I will list the wanted status levels with the city's response. I am sure that my seven examples are enough to understand the concept, and there could be non-mundane options as well. Note first that I am more familiar with Allanak than Tuluk, but this could be put to work in Tuluk too, with Northron themed response.


0. You are not wanted, and law enforcement does not pay attention to you.
1. You are not wanted, but law enforcement is aware of you.
    1 soldier will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is also aware of you.
2. You are not wanted, but law enforcement is communicating with you.
    Up to 2 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
3. You are wanted, and you merit an unarmed beatdown.
    Up to 3 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
4. You are wanted, and you merit arrest.
    Up to 3 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
5. You are wanted, you merit arrest, and have fled the area, but not custody.
    Up to 4 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
6. You are wanted, you merit arrest, and have fled custody.
    Up to 5 soldiers will arrive from a nearby room, and any soldier in that room is involved.
7. You are wanted and you merit death.


Now, I will give examples of each state. Note that this system uses the code to define the state of the wanted flag, but that there is extensive scripting, and in scripting, variables are checked to illicit the soldiers' RPed responses.


0. You are doing nothing aside from living and breathing.
1. You, a human, beats an elf down. Soldiers watch and laugh at the elf.
    (Dude, it's an elf - and this is Miner's Road. Take bets?)
2. You, a human, beats down a rinther human. Soldiers warn you to stop now
    (ten seconds if it were a human, but twenty seconds since it's just a dwarf. If this is the Gaj, room #4521, the time you are given to stop is multiplied by 3. If this is the Red's Retreat, the time is divided by 2.).
3. You, an unclanned elf, have started an unarmed fight with a human.
    (Soldiers come around and knock you out cold, and leave you there.)
4. You, a clanned Kadian dwarf with southron origins, have tried to stab a northron independant.
    (If you were a northron dwarf, your wanted level would have been raised to 5, but you are southron, and that's alright. Still can't have you trying to stab people in the street. Come along peacefully - you can follow me to your cell.)
5. You fled the room when the soldiers arrived and told you that you were under arrest.
6. You, a Kuraci human, punched a Borsail Noble.
    (Yep, dumbass. That's High Blood there. We're coming for you. No, you didn't flee arrest yet, but we're going to respond with the same number of people as though you did.)
7. You, a sorcerer ...
    (We probably oughta run away, actually, but then the Templars might kill us instead. So, uh, arrows? Up to 10 soldiers will respond, as well as any currently present.)


As you can tell, such a system would be really cool, and allow for tons of different scenarios, in any law enforcement zone. There are checks for race, clan, rank, and origin of the persons involved in a fray, room, item, and NPC numbers and keywords can be check, and levels of wanted status can be added or subtracted. If_checks allow for many variables of emotes and tell and say commands, as well as random or variable responses given certain situations.

Complicated? Yeh. But this was more about giving a number of examples in which varied responses would be cool.

[Dresan]

I don't know if I like the idea of soldiers popping out of nowhere to come to arrest you whic is how it works in GTA, especially in this game where there are numberous npc soldiers in every other room within cities.

I can see the idea working if there were alot less npc soldiers roaming the city street and instead there were more soldiers concentrated in certain areas, almost like check points. Whenever a crime is committed near an area, a certain amount of soliders proportionate to the crime would get sent out to investigate from a nearby check point. This would give people time to hide, run or finish the deed. This might also give people a chance to perhaps fight/kill the first couple of soliders sent to investigate before another larger wave of soldiers is sent/arrives to help.

[Narf]

I don't know if I like the idea of soldiers popping out of nowhere to come to arrest you whic is how it works in GTA, especially in this game where there are numberous npc soldiers in every other room within cities.

I can see the idea working if there were alot less npc soldiers roaming the city street and instead there were more soldiers concentrated in certain areas, almost like check points. Whenever a crime is committed near an area, a certain amount of soliders proportionate to the crime would get sent out to investigate from a nearby check point. This would give people time to hide, run or finish the deed. This might also give people a chance to perhaps fight/kill the first couple of soliders sent to investigate before another larger wave of soldiers is sent/arrives to help.

The physical NPC soldiers probably represent roughly 10% of the city's forces, and that's only because they started creating "unit" NPCs. Before that it was well under 1%. This means that there's a huge quantity of unseen VNPC guards roaming about, so it wouldn't be too odd from a realism standpoint that the world would start generating these.

That said, I like to think that VNPC guards patrol virtual portions of the city and arrest VNPC criminals.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't know if I like the idea of soldiers popping out of nowhere to come to arrest you whic is how it works in GTA, especially in this game where there are numberous npc soldiers in every other room within cities.

I can see the idea working if there were alot less npc soldiers roaming the city street and instead there were more soldiers concentrated in certain areas, almost like check points. Whenever a crime is committed near an area, a certain amount of soliders proportionate to the crime would get sent out to investigate from a nearby check point. This would give people time to hide, run or finish the deed. This might also give people a chance to perhaps fight/kill the first couple of soliders sent to investigate before another larger wave of soldiers is sent/arrives to help.

The physical NPC soldiers probably represent roughly 10% of the city's forces, and that's only because they started creating "unit" NPCs. Before that it was well under 1%. This means that there's a huge quantity of unseen VNPC guards roaming about, so it wouldn't be too odd from a realism standpoint that the world would start generating these.

That said, I like to think that VNPC guards patrol virtual portions of the city and arrest VNPC criminals.

Or they probably represent 50%... or 38% or any percent because we don't really know the size of either states military. As is there's about one NPC soldier out of every four rooms in Allanak, with roaming soldiers filling in the gaps almost entirely. I'd say their density is good how it is. Soldiers appearing out of nowhere seems ludicrous. Why have NPC soldiers enforce the code at all if its going to make them magically appear too. Realism be damned we definitely don't need every vnpc soldier to be represented by code.

[number13]

I remember a Tor Lady that would deliver particularly vicious emoted beat-downs of various low lifes around town.   I'd like a crime code system that would allow the PC to deal coded harm to a rinthi elf without the WTFPWN police arriving. On the flip side, it's dumb when southsiders go into the Rinth to beat on the locals without coded repercussions.  The Rinth could actually use a little crime code there, but nuanced such that it only applies to out-of-towners.

If Legionnaire/militia PC goes on rampage and starts slaughtering NPCs (or noble PCs even), it would be nice if the crime code kicked in after a certain amount of carnage.  (it's been known to happen!)

For each city, a character has a social status: based on race, whether or not they were born there, and what their rank/affiliations are.  Being a noble or militia/Legion gives you a huge bonus to social status in a city-state.  Being a Kuraci family member or high ranking Fist gives you a huge bonus in Luirs.

The difference between the social status of the aggressor and the victim is lineally interpolated across a scale of 0.1 to 3, which is multiplied by the crime severity.

Crime severity:
Stealing: .5
Assault: .75
Deadly Assault (Backstab, attacking with a poisoned weapon): 1
Rogue Magic in Allanak: 1
Killing: 1.5
Any Magic in Tuluk: 5 (no reduction possible)

(Crime severity * social difference) is added to your Naughty rating for the particular city-state. Naughty rating is reduced over time, but the higher your naughty rating, the slower the rate of reduction, up to zero reduction over time if your Naughty rating is maxed out.

Then you have a table like 7DS's that indicates the response of the city-state's soldiers.  For a first pass, it could be just a binary WANTED or NOT WANTED.

A noble pickpocket could flunk steal rolls against a rinthi elf all day long and never acquire a wanted flag.  A commoner pickpocket would have to be more careful -- too many flunked attempts against the rinthi elf in a period of time results the Naughty rating going above a threshold.

If a Tuluki elf came to Allanak  and backstabbed a noble, he would suffer a much greater response than if he stayed in his own city and backstabed half-elven NPCs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Er, where are soldiers popping out of thin air? That's the reason I said "up to #", to indicate that up to # of soldier NPCs from surrounding rooms would respond.

[Reiloth]

Er, where are soldiers popping out of thin air? That's the reason I said "up to #", to indicate that up to # of soldier NPCs from surrounding rooms would respond.

Yeah, that's how I thought of it too.

The 'delay' I mention is basically (say) 30 seconds x Delay Rating. Depending on the severity of the crime, that delay rating goes up, or it goes down. Sometimes, it's inevitable. You assault someone on the streets without getting to a 'no-population' room like an apartment building or abandoned warehouse, you are wanted by the Soldiery. For how long also depends on what crime you did.

It should also depend what part of town you are in, at what time, and so on. As stated earlier, it seems the area is either 'populated' or 'not populated'. It would be cool (ideally) if entire areas were un-patrolled and lawless, ala the Rinth, other areas were semi-enforced (Longer delay on the crim-code to reflect lower patrols of soldiers), and other areas were heavily enforced (increased response time, delay is cut down).

When you make it about NPC soldiers that are physically patrolling the area around where you commit the crime, and planning a way to avoid, or run from, those specific soldiers -- It becomes much less of a waiting game (Hmm, might as well stay here hidden until my crime-code modifier wears off 3RL hours later), and more of an active "get away from the cops, double back, and hopefully they don't spot/catch me" game, which seems much more our speed as a player base.

The differential between you committing the crime, and you getting the hell out of dodge, would basically be increased from 'no difference' to 'some difference'. You fail a thievery check in a crowded area? You might get a wanted flag if you stick around, or if you aren't great at blending into crowds. But if you are, you can pretty easily avoid getting fingered for the crime.

If you're brawling in the street, or botching a population-zone assassination, you're going to have your delay to 'wanted by lots of soldiers' cut down pretty quickly, if not instantly. Your description will be passed around by the people that witnessed it, and it's continuous action, not a single 'illegal' action.

If you are wanted, and still on the street, you're basically a walking radar. An APB is put out with your description, and you are hauled in as per the code right now.

To relate this to magick -- If someone is casting magick in public or has magical effects in public, they should be near-instantly reported to the Templarate (especially in Tuluk). They should be dealt with in the way the crim-code works now, no questions asked.

I was just posing means to improve the current crime code -- As it stands, it sucks to have a thief wanted by every soldier in the city because they failed a pick-pocket attempt, for upwards of 3 RL hours.

[Nyr]

This is where all of that fun crim-code discussion can go.

[frankjacoby]

I like this, but for a different reason, you botch a steal attempt and the pc/npc didn't/couldn't report you, however, a different npc caught it virtually, instead of you knowing right away if you were caught, you have no idea.  You only know you're wanted when the military shows up, I always thought it was weird that it displays on your score if you are wanted or not, this is definitely something that should be hidden from you.

[a french mans shirt]

I for one like a more racist criminal system across the board, although being northern or southern, unless you're basing it on accent in a situation where you needn't necessarily talk, seems pretty easy to hide, even accidentally. OOCly that could lead to others learning your city of origin. ICly, a master criminal is more likely to be in a foreign state, but that isn't necessarily true for criminals of lesser standing, especially independents, whom this change in code would affect the most and the most often, if only they would actually line up in front of the target. I imagine, in general, criminals don't want to be working outside their home for too long, and the exceptions seem to me to be those which would stay for prolonged periods in the foreign region, and learn to adopt the local accent and fashion -because- they don't want to be mistaken for a foreigner.

I like the idea of breeds getting it the worst in this system-- just my opinion.

[X-D]

A lot of these ideas are good ideas...but man, what a true headache to code. Now, I know I know, Don't worry about that, let staff worry about that. But I do worry about such things...so I got to thinking.

How about more functionality to the hit command? Instead of only working in brawl coded areas, Hit got changed to work nearly everywhere (How exactly would of course depend on where you are at.) But let us say in Nak, In Nak hit can be used armed or unarmed (up to staff to have both)  Once engaged, it is real combat, but the code would stop you when somebody reached 49% of total HP...with some echo of course, this level is good enough because the loser knows they got beat, they have to go get healed, cannot just sit it off. Now, when somebody reached that level, combat stops, like I said and you cannot start again using hit, you get the same message brawling does "To continue, type kill, this will of course crime flag you."

After that is should be rather simple to adjust thresholds depending on race, clan, citizen of where, etc. For instance, A human nakki  commoner of house Borsail Goes against a Tuluki elf...Well, hit might allow that fight to go to 10% But same thing but the elf is rinthi, 20%, Nak citizen 35%...Indy human nak citizen verses clanned nak citizen 40%.

As to other crimes...I am good with a delay on you getting flagged...that seems rather simple to put in as well.

[Reiloth]

Yeah...I think 'nightmare to code' is definitely one of the main deterrents from looking at or touching the crime-code for Armageddon, at least from what i've seen of these kinds of threads in the past. But that doesn't mean we can't/shouldn't discuss idealisms for the system.

The crime-code as it stands is oblique at times and totalitarian most of the time. Pure and simple, it doesn't make logical sense that every soldier in a city-state would know you failed a pickpocket attempt, and try to arrest you, and failing that, kill you. It does make sense if you were a defiler, or public magicker in most cases, or even an assault transgressor. But crime in ArmageddonMUD seems to be a flag -- On or Off.

Even if there were some nuance between "Wanted" and "Not Wanted", or delays in-between toggling the wanted flag on or off. Or, if the wanted timer could tick down quicker if you are in a lawless area and evaded capture.

I think these kinds of updates (even small ones) would be attractive to veterans, and new players, alike. A reactive crime system is something that can be advertised on places like TMS and TMC, and might attract a whole new crowd. I know if I was trolling for new games and saw something like 'Dynamic Crime System', I would be intrigued.

[CodeMaster]

Part of why I like the current crim code is because it is simple to understand and roleplay around, but tough to beat.  If you plan your crime, you can probably get away with it - but it's not 100%.  The more complicated it becomes (and it will never be perfect), the harder it is to understand and use as a prop to roleplay around.

In fact, there are already are two ways to perform combat with respect to the crim code (brawling and true combat).  That's not too complicated a system, is it?  But their conflation leads to stuff like people accidentally using kick in the Gaj and getting cut to pieces by all guards in the vicinity, or borderline abusive situations like repeatedly using the brawl code on someone who is armed in self defense.

I like X-D's ideas on combat, because they're simple, but if something like that went in, I would simplify it further: no auto-disengage if someone gets too hurt.

As a possible alternative in the same vein, I might give every swing of your weapon a % chance of getting you wanted, maybe modified based on how much damage it does.  This way longer fights are more likely to end up getting both parties wanted; brief scuffles, not so much.  A successful backstab is probably going to get you wanted if it causes enough blood to spray, but if you flubbed it, not so much.  Moreover, the guy who's doing most of the damage (maybe his opponent disengaged, has nosave combat on, or isn't wielding deadly weapons) is more likely to get wanted.

I think stealing is okay where it is.  If you're someone who has any business stealing, you can figure out how the system works and play around it without too much grief.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd also disable the coded feature that causes the presence of PC law enforcement to automatically cause you to become wanted. This way, a PC soldier could choose whether or not they cared about the current infraction. Examples of when this would be nice are when a PC soldiers wants to watch a fight between two PCs of other clans, in a back-alley where the PC is holding bets on a knife-fight between a couple of breeds, etc.

Attacking a PC soldier should still cause you to automatically become wanted, of course, and a PC soldier could cause you to become wanted by using 'accuse'.

[X-D]

Well, when it comes to crime code, I do not much like the idea of anything being random.

[a french mans shirt]

What 7DV said. I feel like soldiers shouldn't care any unless they're that upstanding type, its their friend/ally, or things have gotten out of hand enough with the right variety of perp to make it look like the soldiers aren't doing their job.

I wondw how hard the following would be to code:

For a random 25% of soldiers in each city, a flag on turned on which causes those soldiers to act like they all do now: go and get that motherfucker. The rest simply act like nothing's going on, although something like murder gets everyone on you. Its not a final solution, I'm just a fan of short-term experiments when the wanted end result is not clear-cut. A little sloppiness would also make Luir's and Storm strictness seem more meaningful.

[QuillDipper]

For PC soldiers a nosave crimcode would be nice. That way they could wail on people or see a crime that don't care about without random breed being hauled off.

[Reiloth]

For PC soldiers a nosave crimcode would be nice. That way they could wail on people or see a crime that don't care about without random breed being hauled off.

+1

[Delirium]

What about a command for PC soldiers that sets them as "on" or "off" duty?

[QuillDipper]

Something in general for PC soldiers that turns off their insta-crimcoding abilities would be nice. No reason why every soldier in the city should be alerted because some Noble decided it'd be funny to force 'Rinth Rats to wrestle for his entertainment or because Sergeant Asshat wants his recruits to rough up some guy.

[Dresan]

Never mind.Its been a while since I played in the militia, now I remember how it works.


Yeah something like that would be useful.

[TheWanderer]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!

[manonfire]

I've never been able to figure out why, in a despotic meatgrinder like Allanak, virtual citizens or soldiers give two shits if there's a scuffle in the street.

[Dresan]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!

Given the numbers of milita to the number of commoners, slaves and everyone else I don't think there should be that many npc soliders roaming around. We are talking about what? 20k soliders to a city of  a million people?

That said, if there were no soldier NPC in allanak at all...it would most likely turn into a bloodbath. I love the idea but some people do enjoy the relative safety the city provides. The thing about solider PC is that if they hold still they are just as easy to kill as anyone else so leaving it just to them isn't the best of ideas.  At the same time I wish getting wanted wouldn't mean ever so many npc soliders jumping on your sad ass. It really does feel like finding a place where there isn't a templar or soldier in the adjacent room is a needle in a haystack.

I keep thinking there should be check points around the city instead so many solider NPCs loitering everyone, there would still be soliders pratrolling and such and standing guard but just not as many, however again definitely more soldier check pointsa t key locations. If you are wanted, you would not be able to leave, enter, or travel throughout the city very easily without hide/sneak. At night you should get crim-coded if there is a soldier IN the room with you, not only in the adjacent room since rooms could represent several blocks of street.

I'm all for making things more dangerous but I suppose I would not want it being completely easy either.

[Is Friday]

I've never been able to figure out why, in a despotic meatgrinder like Allanak, virtual citizens or soldiers give two shits if there's a scuffle in the street.

[Nyr]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!

I laid out what you were suggesting over here, except you'd go a step farther and remove all NPCs.  I tend to think that'd be a lot worse.

The amount of players won't affect the issue one bit (unless the amount of players = 0, in which case the problem is...technically...resolved).  A system that provides a backstop is better than none at all.

[Kryos]

I've never been able to figure out why, in a despotic meatgrinder like Allanak, virtual citizens or soldiers give two shits if there's a scuffle in the street.

And to make a point on this:  consider how many classic, and even amazing stories are given flight by the fact that the law did *not* give a )!(# historically.  With our version of handling criminals via the nuclear option, classic literature would be a lot less interesting.  Example:

Romeo and Juliet:  two houses with personal guards go out and stab the shit out of each other a few nights because why not?  And the police don't care.  In Arm, they'd all be dead/arrested the first time they tried.  And that might be fine in Tuluk(except the warrens, which should feel a lot more like the Rinth), but it just falls flat in Allanak.

Not only should the police not give a damn when indies/nobodies/racial minorities are stabbing each other(why waste my life over a total piece of crap doing something to another piece of crap), but it shouldn't be inclined to get involved when Noble family thugs are beating on each other, or especially beating on some one less important.  They should care when its either too obvious to be ignored, someone way out of line, when a Templar says to care, or its a tangible threat to the city.  That's not even mentioning the possibility for bribery/corruption that is lost on both sides with things as they are.

I don't think anyone's arguing pull the plug, I think they're arguing nuance.  Properly orchestrated crim code would actually give even *more* power to those with political power in the game, as well as a bit more to those with simply coded power.  

When I play in Allanak, if I saw a Borsail Sergeant walk into the Gaj, cut the throat of some breed sitting at the bar, then toss their body to the ground and claim the stool I'd think "as it should be" as a player.  If I walked in to a scene where a Tor Scorpion and a Borsail Wyvern were settling their dispute with a duel on Stonecrafter's without the zerg of soldiers rushing in like a tactical nuke, I'd be giddy.  

But if they threw down on Caravan or in the Bazaar, and got drug off, another "as it should be."  Nuance is hardly removal, change is hardly bad.  And the current crim code does stifle story telling to a large degree.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Crim-code's kinda wonky in general. Cities would be far scarier if NPCs were did away with entirely, and it was up to the Militia PCs to keep the peace.

It's unrealistic given player numbers and the supposed VNPC force, but hey, you can't fault a guy for dreamin'. I'm sure it's a dream that could be lived out in full once the Mud Community receives the long overdue hipster splurge of this next generation. ALL HAIL THE UPCOMING HIPSTERS! MAKIN' DREAMS A REALITY!

I laid out what you were suggesting over here, except you'd go a step farther and remove all NPCs.  I tend to think that'd be a lot worse.

The amount of players won't affect the issue one bit (unless the amount of players = 0, in which case the problem is...technically...resolved).  A system that provides a backstop is better than none at all.

Yeh, I wouldn't remove NPCs at all - that's an insane idea. However, creating shades of grey is something that we should be stretching towards, however that's done. The Night code might be alright (I confess to never having used it), but it requires night, and just the right route. I'd far rather see a nuanced, developed crime code come into play, with all sorts of scenarios, where you can count the law enforcement result on a couple hands, but the scenarios that opens up far exceeds the responses.

You could do a simple number system, where 4 trumps 2, and 10 trumps 9. Clan, race, room type, room #, Origin, armed, unarmed, all added or subtracted to a score, and the law could just respond to that, arresting however had the higher number.

[Sav]

And to make a point on this:  consider how many classic, and even amazing stories are given flight by the fact that the law did *not* give a )!(# historically.  With our version of handling criminals via the nuclear option, classic literature would be a lot less interesting.  Example:

Romeo and Juliet:  two houses with personal guards go out and stab the shit out of each other a few nights because why not?  And the police don't care.  In Arm, they'd all be dead/arrested the first time they tried.  And that might be fine in Tuluk(except the warrens, which should feel a lot more like the Rinth), but it just falls flat in Allanak.

Oh man oh man, let's do this. *cracks Shakespeare nerd knuckles*

Actually, Romeo & Juliet only works as a story because of crim code. Let's play this out.

So, the play starts with a buncha Montague and Capulet servants taunting the hell out of each other because their Houses are enemies, but they aren't actually fighting yet because they will get CRIMMED, bro.

ABRAHAM: Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?
SAMPSON: I do bite my thumb, sir.
ABRAHAM: Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?
SAMPSON [Aside to GREGORY]: Is the law of our side, if I say
ay?
GREGORY: No.
SAMPSON: No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir, but I
bite my thumb, sir.

"YOU TALKIN' SHIT?"
"FUCK YEAH I'M TALKIN' SHIT."
"YOU TALKIN' SHIT?"
"Uhhh hey bro will I get arrested if I punch that guy in the face?"
"Uh, YEAH, bro, this ain't the Gaj."
"Oh. Uh. YEAH WE TALKIN' SHIT BUT... NOT AT... YOU?"

Then they fight.

LORD TEMPLAR PRINCE IMMEDIATELY APPEARS. HE IS PISSED.

Three civil brawls, bred of an airy word,
By thee, old Capulet, and Montague,
Have thrice disturb'd the quiet of our streets,
And made Verona's ancient citizens
Cast by their grave beseeming ornaments,
To wield old partisans, in hands as old,
Canker'd with peace, to part your canker'd hate:
If ever you disturb our streets again,
Your lives shall pay the forfeit of the peace.

Lord Templar Prince: I'm pardoning you nobles I guess but IF YOU FIGHT EVEN ONCE MORE YOU'RE ALL GONNA DIE. ALL OF YOU. FUCK THIS NONSENSE.

Romeo, a Montague noble, promptly kills Tybalt, a Capulet noble.

Romeo, away, be gone!
The citizens are up, and Tybalt slain.
Stand not amazed: the prince will doom thee death,
If thou art taken: hence, be gone, away!

Benvolio: AW FUCK BRO YOU GOT CRIMMED, RUN!

....let Romeo hence in haste,
Else, when he's found, that hour is his last.

Yeah, he's super crimmed.

Romeo being crimmed sets up the ENTIRE REST OF THE STORY! He can't come back to Verona because he will get immediately stomped by a bunch of half-giant guards. Instead he has to hide out in Mantua/Red Storm.

Juliet cooks up a super stupid idea that she's gonna fake her death and then join Romeo in Storm, except Romeo's got Barrier up and doesn't hear the plan. When Balthasar beetles over to Storm and is like WHOA ROMEO, JULIET IS DEAD, Romeo uses all his stealth skills to get back into Verona.

STEALTH CHECK FAIL.

This is that banish'd haughty Montague,
That murder'd my love's cousin, with which grief,
It is supposed, the fair creature died;
And here is come to do some villanous shame
To the dead bodies: I will apprehend him.

Paris is highborn militia, apparently? Anyway, Romeo kills him.

By the time Romeo and Juliet off themselves, the place is CRAWLING with guards.

The ground is bloody; search about the churchyard:
Go, some of you, whoe'er you find attach.

CRIMINAL! HALT!

Second Watchman: Here's Romeo's man; we found him in the churchyard.
First Watchman: Hold him in safety, till the prince come hither.

BAM. Romeo's bro Balthasar gets subdued by a bunch of soldiers.

The people in the street cry Romeo,
Some Juliet, and some Paris; and all run,
With open outcry toward our monument.

How did everyone in Verona hear about a bunch of people who quietly murdered themselves/each other? I dunno, man. Theatrical necessity crim code.

A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Juliet and her Romeo.

"Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished" -- Lord Templar Prince is pissed, and the nobles definitely aren't all getting away with it.

So basically Romeo & Juliet is a tragic tale of warring houses and crim code.

*drops mic*

[manonfire]

Man, that's a level of commitment I can't even relate to. You people are weird.

[QuillDipper]

I was gonna be snarky but now I'm just too impressed to.

[senseofeven]

*standing ovation*

[CodeMaster]

Romeo: Stop it dude!

Romeo subdues Mercutio, despite his attempts to struggle away.

Tybalt stabs Mercutio in the neck, resulting in a scream and a shower of blood.

Mercutio chuckles: A scratch!

Romeo: Hehe.

Mercutio's eyes roll into the back of his head.
Mercutio crumples to the ground.

[Kryos]

Stuff that makes my point for me.

Thanks, Sav, for making my point for me.  If you move to kill murder someone out in a very public place, the cops should have no choice but to roll up and handle it(like I posted the first time).  Romeo got that crim flag because he was a retard and stabbed someone out in the middle of Caravan Road, equivalently.  Not only that, but the crim code in R and J was so nuanced that there wasn't a:

"A half-giant soldier enters from the every direction" x 4

When he took the first swing, ending the fight before it began.  

Huh, go figure.

And not only that, its pretty clear that since relations of the Prince old boy were involved, that's more or less why he cares to punish anyone.  The hint being that, if they were just a tad less obvious and not killing prince kin, no one would've cared.  Good, nuanced crim code and corruption in law enforcement helped the story, it didn't end it with a tac nuke detonating on the first fight scene.  

[QuillDipper]

I can't say I agree that militia wouldn't give a damn about fighting in the streets. But they probably wouldn't care about fighting in specific areas. A full on murder on Caravan's is kind of weird, but there are some places in the Commons that you really should be afraid to walk at night.

[Sav]

I have to admit I don't actually have that much of a stake in the crim code fight, I just needed to be like WAIT ACTUALLY PEOPLE TOTALLY CARE ABOUT NOBLES KILLING EACH OTHER IN SHAKESPEARE.

I do agree that stuff around the militia should be fine-tuned, though.

ETA: Not that there aren't many awesome points being made here! I've just somehow managed to avoid getting a lot of IG experience with crim code, so I can't really argue the nuances of it. I can totally argue about Shakespeare, though.

[whitt]

So since it's started to come up again...  thought I'd search-fu crim code, ahem, code.

Is there a potential, trying to keep it simple, for the current code to be modded to have just two levels of crim-codeness?

1) Watched
2) Wanted

First time you break the law you are Watched.

Break the law while you are Watched and you become Wanted.

So:
Amos the pick-pocket blows an attempt.  The fat merchant points and hollers "Thief!".  Amos is now Watched in the city of Allanak.
Amos then moves a few blocks down, and blows another attempt, gets flagged Wanted, and the guards are SRSLY, DUDE?  WTFPWN go to jail.

also...
Amos the Bynner has nosave combat on.  He slugs Maliq the Sharp in the streets with his fist.  That first punch is assault and draws the attention of the guards.  Amos is now Wanted.
if Amos didn't have nosave combat on and hit Maliq again, then he'd go from Watched to Wanted... because now it's not just a random shove into the wall, it's a fight.

More thought required, but curious if the code can discern:
if (breaking the law) and (crim_flag == Watched)
then crim_flag = Wanted
else crim_flag = Watched

or if there's more to it.

[Jihelu]

Lets reduce crim code by 800 more at night so people get shanked and stolen from like no tomorrow on the streets!...I actually like the idea, but I see it backfiring.

[solera]

What would Allanak be like if there was a city wide hit code?

[MeTekillot]

Hit code isn't very robust.

[CodeMaster]

Lets reduce crim code by 800 more at night so people get shanked and stolen from like no tomorrow on the streets!...I actually like the idea, but I see it backfiring.

The way this would backfire, I'd imagine, is that people would start spending all of their time inside compounds and clan headquarters, socializing over the Way, and avoiding the game's shared spaces (taverns, main roads, etc.)

Even in the most PK-centric MUDs I've played, there's usually a safe room where players can feel comfortable going AFK for a second, or playing with a crappy connection without getting overwhelmed by a PK attempt.  In Arm, these safe rooms tend to be clan compounds and/or apartments, which can be stifling for player-to-player interaction and make the game feel empty.

This might be an unpopular notion in this thread, but for playability reasons, I think the crim code and other PK-mitigating factors could be even heavier-handed around taverns:

• Human soldiers (like there already are) maybe wielding bludgeoning weapons to reduce deaths
• Smaller taverns could have a squeaky door that you need to open/shut to enter
• Bouncers at the doors that might not be that tough, but would prevent projectile weapons

[Patuk]

Are you serious? The only deaths I see in taverns are those from throwing weapons, and I'm not quite sure if more than a penalty to throwing into such crowded areas is warranted. But other than that? Taverns are fine. Staff have much better things to do.

[MeTekillot]

Just give taverns doors that the barkeep will auto-close if someone leaves it open, to stop the age-old "somehow send a projectile weapon through a crowded street, through a door, through the crowd behind the door, and into my target" that is the primary tavern assassination method.

[Patuk]

unlatch door s;throw throwing amos s

Pow.

It's a lot less ridiculous than you make it out to be, anyway. It assumes you can't toss knives from right out the doorways, that bars are always fucking packed, or that people actually are behind all these crowds.

A penalty, sure. Not a full-on immunity.

[Asanadas]

Make Vennant catch the dagger and throw it back.

[RogueGunslinger]

Killing people in taverns is easy. You just have to be stronger than the 2 NPC soldiers who also show up there to stop you.

[solera]

Hit code isn't very robust.

I meani a good hit code. If you could fight barehanded on the streets of south west side Allanak without auto crim. What would it be like.

[MeTekillot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzPcMzy4WI8 this maybe?

[solera]

Maybe not. I saw a lirapet there.

[MeTekillot]

where else do you think northern templars are going to go to train their unarmed skill? they can't beat down tuluki commoners. that's not subtle.

[KankWhisperer]

It'd be nice if there was a tiered more nuanced crim code based on social status.

0 Guba the Foreigner
1 Amos the Grebber.
2 Grunter the low level Kadian employee.
--------------------------------------------------------------------IMPORTANCE LINE
3 Malik the Kadius Agent/Kilam the Salarr Agent/Guardie the Fale Guard
4 Molesto the Kadius Senior Agent
5 Fancypants the Fale Noble
6 Templar Tinydick

Anyone below the importance line who engages in crime is still arrested
automatically for crimes. Anyone attacking any law enforcement is still
arrested automatically for their crimes. If Kalim attacks Grunter he is arrested since
they are too close in social status. If Kalim attacks Amos then the guards
are uneasy and just report it. The report gets put on the templar desk as an
actual scroll by a clerk.

Scroll reads.
-Guards report Agent Kilam of Salarr attacking  some grebber in the streets.

Tinydick reads the report. Calls in Kilam and gets his bribe, gives a sterner
warning, etc.

Also, if you are in the same clan and you are guarding/following  someone in your clan you
get the benefit of the higher rank between you and whoever you are guarding. So
Grunter calls Fancypants a bitch and he has Guardie (who is guarding him) attack
Grunter. Guardie has the benefit of Fancypants' status so the NPCs look the other way
and a report is filed. Tinydick investigates and the noble explains and it is shrugged off.


Of course status adjustments for citizen/noncitizen, where the importance line is, and how
big of a gap allows you to beat on someone would have to be decided.PC soldiers could
still make their own decisions to arrest whoever. It might make templars lives more interesting
or maybe not. The could smirk and crumple up scrolls as a waste of time?

[Delirium]

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar gets a thin leather scroll from his dragon-embossed carrying-case.

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar gets a thin leather scroll from his dragon-embossed carrying-case.

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar gets a thin leather scroll from his dragon-embossed carrying-case.

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar gets a thin leather scroll from his dragon-embossed carrying-case.

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar gets a thin leather scroll from his dragon-embossed carrying-case.

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar says, in southern-accented sirihish:
    "Now, Malik, you haven't been behaving too well, but I've been turning a blind eye to it... but after today's nonsense, I require a donation of 1,000 obsidian to help ensure that I continue to ignore the contents of these scrolls. Or you can simply go to jail for a month. Up to you."


Templars could also forge infraction scrolls if they're annoyed enough at someone. Or just to fuck with their day.

[Beethoven]

I love the idea of a more robust crimcode. The way things are has always made me feel like I'm way too important as a nobody grebber or breed or whatever. The shoulders should not care if someone punches me in the face outside the Gaj, nor should they care if some southern noble wants to carry spice through the gates.

[KankWhisperer]

Yeah and add a wow style dueling system, at least in the South.
Amos: challenge Malik
Malik: accept Amos

When they fight, there is no crim code intervention as long as no one interferes in that room. Once someone flees then it is over and crim code returns while they live with the shame.

Of course the victor will have to live with the consequences politically of killing their opponent. If soldiers see it and one of the people is above the importance line, templar gets a scroll.

Combining it with my previous idea dueling a noble (or anyone of higher rank) could still be a bad idea since they could call their minions for aid which would trigger crim code. However it would likely only result in a report scroll.

[MeTekillot]

I love the idea of a more robust crimcode. The way things are has always made me feel like I'm way too important as a nobody grebber or breed or whatever. The shoulders should not care if someone punches me in the face outside the Gaj, nor should they care if some southern noble wants to carry spice through the gates.

Southern nobles don't get searched at the gates, iirc. Noble players should test this without spice first just to be sure though.

[Beethoven]

They do get searched at the gates though, or at least they definitely get the echo that they are being searched.

[MeTekillot]

It could be that some Houses do and some don't, on account of some perhaps archaic code that only takes certain noble clans into account.

[Beethoven]

That is possible.

[MeTekillot]

For all we know, maybe some nobles are immune to crimcode??? The obvious solution is for every southern noble to go attack the nearest commoner and report back with results.

[i love toilets]

If Kalim attacks Amos then the guards
are uneasy and just report it. The report gets put on the templar desk as an
actual scroll by a clerk.

And scrolls can be stolen! Yes!

[Beethoven]

I just want to reiterate that I absolutely LOVE the scrolls idea.

[HavokBlue]

I don't believe the current writing code allows for automatically generated readable items.

[Beethoven]

Add this idea to the long list of reasons why the writing code needs fixing, then.

[Armaddict]

I could be wrong, but I believe in the past, what was said was that 'rewriting crimcode' was an incredibly daunting and messed up task, because it's woven into a bunch of different places and so on and so forth.

Being that I'm learning programming now, I think I am starting to understand what that means, so if they say they don't wanna mess with it, I don't really blame them.

[MeTekillot]

*clenches fist* They're AFRAID

[KankWhisperer]

count scroll table
There are 65 scrolls on the table.

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar sighs, looking back and forth after staring at the stack of scrolls.

get scroll table
junk scroll

get scroll table
junk scroll

<3 pages of spam>

[Rokal]

count scroll table
There are 65 scrolls on the table.

A hardnosed, blue-robed templar sighs, looking back and forth after staring at the stack of scrolls.

get scroll table
junk scroll

get scroll table
junk scroll

<3 pages of spam>

Well duh. No one likes paperwork!

That said, I think its a cool idea.

[Inks]

I've killed people publicly before.

Live your dreams.