The Clans and Economy Thread

[KankWhisperer]

I believe that all the clans were fun...I do not pick one over the other.

But here is another thing that has, in my experience, gone missing. Rivalry. Again, going back 8-15 years, during that time, all the clans were rivals...Oh sure, the GMH would close ranks verses the other clans and the nobles would close ranks verses GMH and northern noble clans etc, but there was tons of interclan rivalry.

It was great fun...as example...sometime between 2002 and 2004 I played in winrothal, worked up from recruit to LT over the course of many game years....Now Winrothal just hated Tenneshi...and likely Tenneshi hated us. We in Winrothal were always doing whatever we could to undermine Tenneshi. My LT and his two sarges had quite the game going, and that game was, Get Tenneshi to recruit all the fuckups...we became quite successful with that.

Or playing in salarr and considering Kadius to be a second rate house and Kurac  and its "snort" outriders to be a bunch of self inflated spice addled blowhards.

Now, this type of thing could easily come back with simply players...no need to change docs or have staff change anything.

This happens constantly now.

I think I'm taking this thread too personally. GDB gets me again.

It is a struggle to read docs and traditions as a leader and be taught ICly certain things and then have players constantly want special treatment.
Stay independent if you didn't want any rules or schedules and want to explore. No matter how much you bend or make interpretations it seems
that a percentage of the player base is not happy and will store or suicide because they in particular weren't the special one who gets to have
the rule ignored. First of all I just met you and you are as likely to be a thief or spy as you are a productive employee. MAYBE after the evaluation
period we'll talk. Perhaps it is a matter of perception. What do they think exactly is supposed to happen when they join a clan?

[X-D]

This happens constantly now.

If so, good, though that was not the case in the last few clans I played...course I admit that was around 3-4 years ago for the last one.

[Harmless]

This discussion was really good. Seeing Italis make the astute observation that GMH have been having "life-oath" creep in particular was really good. I am optimistic that GMH will make changes in the right direction and I look forward to my next GMH PC now.

Once again, my stance: The very lowest level of "leadership role" should be available to those who are not "life swearing." In most GMH this refers to the rank of Corporal, Merc, whatever. Maybe even sergeant in exceptional cases. Anything higher than that, or special units, etc, are fine to have a life oath requirement as the responsibility rapidly does increase.

A change towards this direction will be helpful to GMH.

Noble houses probably don't need to be much different than they are. This applies only to Salarr, Kadius, and to a lesser extent, Kurac, because the culture of Kurac has always been this way. Salarr and Kadius had no reason to become so "elitist," and a move in the reverse direction will greatly benefit the community.

[Fujikoma]

Yeah, well, post evaluation period is what I'm talking, Kankwhisperer. Somehow I believe people read the documentation and interpret it a certain way, and in some cases at least, it's not conducive to good ol harmless fun. In fact, if the crackdown on fun is so systemic, and I can only speak for myself here, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, I'm going to pull up my roots and set off for untainted lands. I'm pretty sure a good deal of us wouldn't ask for or want special treatment, the challenge for your PC to prove itself to others is part of the fun and a great aid in defining your PC, it's just when these goals turn impossible, become unfun, take too much out of us, as players of a game, that we grow frustrated.

This is for everyone in a leadership position, btw, not just Kankwhisperer.

You only want a certain type of person in you clan, well, that's fine, but I don't want to hear any bitching when the other types look elsewhere, besides, you'd readily admit you neither need nor want them mucking up the works, so why the complaints, anyway? Schedules and such are a pain, yes, but one that will readily be endured under the right conditions. Constantly struggling to prove your worth and find ways to contribute, even above and beyond the expected amount while someone continues to piss in your ale is one of those big turn-offs that really, why do I put myself through this rigorous training, put up with this grouch that likes to constantly find fault, and toss my PC's life on the line at every turn to achieve some goal when it's about as appreciated as a great big turd on an expensive rug?

Just my experience, likely an effective leadership style, just, some of us would rather not deal with that.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have been playing this game for 15 years. There are people who have been playing longer than me. I have absolutely no desire to troll independents. But I have no issue at all suggesting what I consider to be realistic additions and subtractions to the world. It makes no sense to me that Nenyuk keeps records for Joe Smoe and his 300 sid across the Known, which is the only thing I have suggested at all.

This thread is full of suggestions and conceptions. Don't take them personally.

[FantasyWriter]

Add in Minimum deposits and a handling fee for withdrawals. 
Make them both Zalanthan-level harsh.

Code Select Expand

>Deposit 200
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "Come back when you have a large, pissant."

(which means that any given PC may have up to a large in coin on them at any given time. HELLO, Pickpockets and thugs!

Code Select Expand

>withdraw 200
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "Quit wasting my time, pissant."
250 coins have been deducted from your account. (25%)

>inventory
200 Allanaki coins


Code Select Expand

>Deposit 1000
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "Thank you for you business."

>withdrawl 1000
The portly banker says to you in Southern-accented Sirihish,
   "May they bring you many more coins in return!"
1050 coins have been deducted from your account. (5%)

[Molten Heart]

For all the indy haters...  if you build it, they will come.

I could be wrong here but for whatever their specific reasons are, indys don't join clans because playing any indy is more fun.  Rather than making playing an indy less fun, if we make clan play more fun the game becomes more fun over all (rather than less fun).   Think about it.

[rodic]

PAGE ROLL

I think you misread then. When he said that stuff he was talking about using ranger quit.

Also, he mentioned using GONE if he was playing in a clan, forcing people to wait on him to continue RPing with him in certain circumstances.

Ah I did misread, you're right. I apologize to Rodic. However, the point still stands, in general: I don't think people are trying to make the game _harder_ for indies, because I don't think it's all that hard in the first place anymore. I think people want to return *some* of the challenge that used to exist, that no longer exists, to give players more of a reason to WANT to "group up" (as it's called in other games). And I still maintain that if you need to log out that often, then you should have your smoke and make your coffee before you log on. That way, you'll need to go "gone" or use your ranger quit less often, to take care of your family when/as needed.

If you're in a clan, and you're playing a ranger, you can STILL do that, and no one expects anything from you, and no one will have to wait for you to be "ungone." Just ooc to them that you have to leave, and then leave. And when you log back in, catch up with them wherever they are. If you are playing a ranger, you can track them.

Apology accepted, I tend to rage so I can understand your response.

I avoid clans because honestly, as player... I'm in the way.  If I happen to tag a long, people will be waiting for me at SOME point.  I might not even be able to come back.

As well, when I do log on, I'm not going to have the patience for a schedule, when I really wanna do is X but the schedule is Y.

Whether that's solo hunting or tavern interaction, I don't have the ability for an initial time investment that other players do.  Nor do I want my play to be restricted.

My anger comes from this "harder on indies".  which is such a non-solution its not even funny.  If clans where really all that great, then why do indies need nerf/hurt/whatever?  Makes no sense.

People don't play clanned, and often its punishment in its own right in terms of what available to them. 
I fail to see making it harder on the folks who don't wanna clan is going to make clans any better, you'll just make part of player base angry, and you might lose some players.  And thus nothing was solved because now there are even LESS players to interact with.

[valeria]

And I don't usually play indies because I find playing in clans more fun.  I think it's really just a matter of perspective.  But if the idea is that indies are more fun because you have no rules, you can go anywhere, you can do anything you want, and you can make a bunch of money, let's not turn clans into that.  Then we wouldn't have a place for people who like structure, tradition, prestige, and a different type of conflict.

I just don't think that we need to make clans appealing to people who like to play independents, or to make playing independents appealing to people who like to play clanned characters.  Different people are going to have different things that they like to play.

[FantasyWriter]

For all the indy haters...  if you build it, they will come.

I could be wrong here but for whatever their specific reasons are, indys don't join clans because playing any indy is more fun.  Rather than making playing an indy less fun, if we make clan play more fun the game becomes more fun over all (rather than less fun).   Think about it.

I, too, find indies more fun to play on the whole.  Different strokes and all that.

[Barzalene]

I like my discussions with less vitriol if possible, please.

[Hicksville Hoochie]

I think one thing that could be done to bridge the clan/indie gap is to add more synergy between the two. I can't really say HOW I would do that, but when a Noble's stipend for a month is outdone by someone who visits the salt flats daily, buys the best he/she can in a week, and no longer has any need of anything, the balance is a bit skewed, and in my opinion, kind of kills the 'prestige' that a clanned role should have when such a person is being looked at from the outside-in.

That isn't saying to start dumping coins in the laps of clanned folks, though. It was mentioned way earlier in the thread that jobs (salting/dung sweeping/cotton picking/etc) should pay in resources other than flat coin, such as food/water. I found that to be a pretty enticing idea (at least imo), and would bring the economy more in line with the docs, in which most independents aren't exactly well-to-do. Shops having limited coin and only accepting so many of a particular item seems fine to me, as I imagine if a shop owner has a ton of one thing, and it isn't selling, he'd not give up his food/water money on a gamble when he can't say it will sell.

This would push open more interaction as well, for grebbers/hunters being needed by other pcs who actually need the wares they're snagging in the wastes and bringing back to that already-loaded shopkeeper. Those wealthy salters would actually have to get their hands dirty and interact in order to buy that mek-hide armor and Tor-hair-strung shortbow.

The more difficult banking ideas seemed nice to me as well. If you're not wearing any sort of livery, taking you to the cleaners isn't going to attract the ire of any important people, so why not charge a stabling fee for that five large you just brought in? That's a lot of space to take up in a vault for someone who is actually no one. This would in-turn make the thievish classes more enticing to play as well, because those not wanting to pay the piper would be in charge of protecting their miniature fortunes.

Not just to harp on indy-ease though (As I'm sure it's a little more difficult than I'm making it sound, I play about a 3-1 ratio of clanned to indy myself), but having a little standout perk or two to most clans could also be enticing. Not exactly something to say 'play here or you're screwed', but something to add flavor to the role, whatever it may be? Give militia officers those old clawed bracers/gloves that would sneak in an occasional attack, give GMH hunters/crafters something that gives a little skill bonus to archery/crafting perhaps, add that discussed discount to food/drinks to any aides wearing a cloak of their House's livery, etc.

Not to say I'm unhappy with the state of the game or anything, I've had a blast over the past couple of years, and this last year especially. I just figured that with all the time I'm spending reading the thread, I should at least contribute an opinion.  

(Also, imms, open Tor and let me play a noble with a pet Mekillot mount that comes with a mounter rapid-repeating crossbow on one shoulder, and a greek-fire cannon on the other. I promise I'll only abuse it when anything with a pulse crosses my path!)

[KankWhisperer]

Yeah, well, post evaluation period is what I'm talking, Kankwhisperer. Somehow I believe people read the documentation and interpret it a certain way, and in some cases at least, it's not conducive to good ol harmless fun. In fact, if the crackdown on fun is so systemic, and I can only speak for myself here, but I'm pretty sure I'm not alone, I'm going to pull up my roots and set off for untainted lands. I'm pretty sure a good deal of us wouldn't ask for or want special treatment, the challenge for your PC to prove itself to others is part of the fun and a great aid in defining your PC, it's just when these goals turn impossible, become unfun, take too much out of us, as players of a game, that we grow frustrated.

This is for everyone in a leadership position, btw, not just Kankwhisperer.

You only want a certain type of person in you clan, well, that's fine, but I don't want to hear any bitching when the other types look elsewhere, besides, you'd readily admit you neither need nor want them mucking up the works, so why the complaints, anyway? Schedules and such are a pain, yes, but one that will readily be endured under the right conditions. Constantly struggling to prove your worth and find ways to contribute, even above and beyond the expected amount while someone continues to piss in your ale is one of those big turn-offs that really, why do I put myself through this rigorous training, put up with this grouch that likes to constantly find fault, and toss my PC's life on the line at every turn to achieve some goal when it's about as appreciated as a great big turd on an expensive rug?

Just my experience, likely an effective leadership style, just, some of us would rather not deal with that.

Really I'm not bitching about getting people to join. My clan has 10 people online at times. I just hate the bitching about how nothing is fun and I tend to take it personally. Sometimes it is not fun trying to "stay in your lane" and true to your character while also making things interesting for everyone. It's not as easy as some people think to actually get a meaningful plot going in those constrictions. The clan docs are there so the leader doesn't have to watch you 24/7. You should be doing this unless you have a good reason to do that. Being bored and used to being an indie is not a good reason. I feel like a lot of people have unreasonable expectations about how much fun a leader can force you to have.

My main complaint is that the ceiling for players in clans is too low. Let us go higher until we fuck up and die. Open the elite sections so you can have a carrot for your long lived elite players. They are already coded and they already exist along with gear, so why not? You can order people to basically do exactly the same thing as an elite but the title is what attracts some people, just like in real life. It doesn't change that much but it keeps the players striving for something. It gives them a little feather in their cap.

[Is Friday]

+1 to elite sub-organizations. We all wants it.

[Barzalene]

Kankwhisperer makes a lot of good points.

[Is Friday]

I'll also add that as KankWhisperer says, I don't think people realize just how restricted leadership is by the docs/staff on purpose.

[James de Monet]

Indie lovers, the reason clan lovers are saying its too easy to be an indie is not because they are trying to force you to be in a clan. They are saying the gameworld should make you want to be in a clan.  That if it doesn't make you want to, there is probably something wrong with it.

There is also a long history of indies having more money than anyone except maybe nobles. Again, that probably isn't realistic, and means that something may need changing.

Also, clan schedules are not there to limit your fun. They are there to help you RP what being in a clan would realistically would be like.  All of this is about realism. Not about trying to make you play the way they want you to. If it sounds like that, it is probably because they believe the world should make you want to, not that they do. 98% of these opinions aren't personal attacks.

[Patuk]

I agree with the sentiment of clans needing something extra to draw in people. As-is, a clan can't offer much that a person couldn't get if they did well as someone playing independent. For clans to get fuller, ramp up the benefits.

The whole 'bring back elite units' is a step in the good direction, but we can do better than that; if your supposedly elite pc ends up with the exact same gear and skills as someone who's stayed on their own all their life, the status of elite is meaningless. We could up the benefits instead.

Give elite units ways to back up their supposedly elite status; I'm not talking about social or political status or anything in that general area, I think an elite unit would need some actual way to discern itself. The old fighting style docs, for example, state that Zalanthas' various elite units may or may not have tricks of their own: if an old Kadian falcon warmaster would teach every new falcon his way of feinting, and if every Kuraci outrider would receive a badass glaive and get the polearms skill for free because that's just how they fight, we're taking a step in the right direction.

Another issue is gear. I haven't the time or even the inclination to meaaure how every sword in the game measures up to the other, but I do think that what clanned people get should outclass the more common gear by some margin. I know for a fact the game has kryl acid resistant armor; why this kind of thing isn't standard issue for northern officers is beyond me. Similarly, trusted salarri employees should end up owning gear no unaffiliated person could ever attain, by sheer virtue of it being too scarce to sell. That such things are not happenimg already is a deep shame.

Tl;dr if you want to make clans more attractive, don't half-ass it, but up the ante instead.

[HavokBlue]

The thing that gets me the most about this thread is that like half the complaints are either stating things that do happen don't happen, or complaining that something that can easily be changed or handled by PCs in game is no longer possible.

[Barzalene]

I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

[Is Friday]

It already exists.

[Barzalene]

I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

One thing I'd say is, I'd love if all clan cloaks had pockets. It's such a small thing. It would be good.

[BadSkeelz]

I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

One thing I'd say is, I'd love if all clan cloaks had pockets. It's such a small thing. It would be good.

File a staff request saying "It'd be nice if our cloaks had pockets." It worked for my clan.

[James de Monet]

I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

FOR IT.  Getting sweet, rarely seen gear is one of the best things about being in a clan.

When I swore my oaths on my Red Scorpion PC, the current Lord Tor gave me some rocksauce gear I have never seen before or since.  My PC was constantly getting questions about it.  It was sweet.

The problem is, I don't know where he got it.  Most non-merchant leader types don't necessarily have access to that stuff.  More access to more sweet gear equals more better, IMHO.

Staff, if you are interested in this path, I will absolutely volunteer to sift the database and find a list of stuff for individual clan shops that only leaders can access.  I will even write the NPCs.

100% for it.

[HavokBlue]

I would like to discuss the idea of great clan gear. For each clan. I'm not saying we should do this. I'm saying I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. Me, I'm still thinking.

I won't go as far as saying every clan has great gear floating in the database, but Salarr, for example, has a variety of amazing clan specific items that they are encouraged to distribute to proven employees.

Many of the regularly played noble houses have fancy gear that's not noble specific, and I'm sure Kadius and Kurac have a lot of hot duds too.