The Clans and Economy Thread

[BadSkeelz]

What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters.

Yep, we got tired of them being spammed up for awesome accents and treated like quest vending machines.

Tuluki documentation.

If it's what we've talked about before (it seems like it is) then that wasn't a result of changes to documentation done silently.  The docs were always that way, they always said that, they weren't changed.  They might be in the future, but...we went over that already, no?  I just don't see this as an example of a retcon or a doc change that was pursued silently.

I've seen a few things crop up over time in my clans where Staff and the players seem to have different view points on a matter of character (rank responsibilities, life-swearing, etc). However, these appear more like instances where players were left to their own devices when filling a grey area in a clan's character, and their decisions propagated themselves over generations of characters and become "fact." Then Staff come and say no, that's not how this clan works.

So it seems more like an issue where Staff have documents on the clan that the people playing the clan's characters do not have access to.

((Cripes these page rolls))

[Delirium]

What retcons and doc changes have we pursued that were made silently, that confused players who have experienced things differently in the past, and perhaps fucked over their PCs?

The way elementals evidently respond to player characters.

Yep, we got tired of them being spammed up for awesome accents and treated like quest vending machines.

Then... why not set out some documentation on how they should be approached and used (with a staff and player version) rather than make sweeping changes behind the scenes? Why not at the very least let some sort of IC explanation leak out, or hint at it in future interactions with those elementals? If, in the past, you have dealt heavily with an elemental with one character, and then on a separate character, you have two entirely different encounters (one, evidently pre-change) with the same type of elemental, it is jarring and confusing and throws you for a loop. It's not a whole lot of fun.

Tuluki documentation.

If it's what we've talked about before (it seems like it is) then that wasn't a result of changes to documentation done silently.  The docs were always that way, they always said that, they weren't changed.  They might be in the future, but...we went over that already, no?  I just don't see this as an example of a retcon or a doc change that was pursued silently.

Heh, no, that's not entirely what I'm talking about (though I do have my own quibbles with that scenario as well, but we went over that). I do seem to recall that it was actually possible for what you assumed she was planning on to work in the reverse, in old documentation, but obviously I don't have access to that to prove anything. My issue with that was being OOCly forbidden from pursuing a plotline, rather than letting it resolve in-game. But I'm over that. It wasn't a big deal.

What I am referring to is the fact that when these documentation changes went on in Tuluk, nothing the players who were involved did could actually affect the outcome at all. They could write in the little in-between details, but none of those mattered. They were essentially meaningless. So they were being carried along on a script, and there was nothing they could do to affect the outcome of that story.

It isn't about winning or losing - it's about feeling like you are a part of a living, breathing world, that actually evolves based on what you do -- and there were more than a couple PCs involved who should absolutely have been able to affect the outcomes, but were not, because "that's not how it's going to end up".

That's what I'm talking about.

[HavokBlue]

That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true.  


Hrm. Oh well, maybe I'll go review the threads about tuluk changes and levies more in depth, if its true though I guess the levies still work for people who want to always remain independent/partisans.  

You can be a member of the levies and a member of a clan. This is the point of the levy tax.

[KankWhisperer]

That is really odd about the levies. I was just asking about them recently in game too and I did get the impression they were something you could join much like shadow artists (are/used to be?). I mean you could be one and still join other clans. I guess you would really need to buy your way out if you wanted to join a clan later on if what evilone is saying is true.  


Hrm. Oh well, maybe I'll go review the threads about tuluk changes and levies more in depth, if its true though I guess the levies still work for people who want to always remain independent/partisans.  

You can be a member of the levies and a member of a clan. This is the point of the levy tax.

Maybe if your clan works Luir's and northwards almost exclusively. If you have to go into Allanak from time to time, why bother with levi members?

[HavokBlue]

I don't imagine it's an optimal scenario for merchant houses who send people south, but if I were an enterprising Templar I probably wouldn't care and I'd be slapping extra taxes on offending agents and merchants to make up for my diminished income.

[a french mans shirt]

The levy. Is Awesome.

Do Kadian, Salaar, those sort of clan leaders you think resent the levy sometimes if it'll keep their minions in the north? I feel like, OOC maybe, but ICly this is something to put on the resume and it supercedes the OOC enough to blanket it out. Obviously I'm not playing a sponsored family member right now... and I know there's frustration, I don't know how much.

[Patuk]

After recent-ish events, I think it's safe to assume that leaders are cautious about sending personnel north and south too much.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Maybe, but the weapons and armors and silks and spice and wooden dressers and wagons must flow. The Templars of both cities understand that, and it's not honestly good for the cities to kill off too many of the merchantile persons they have to deal with to get anything neat they might need. That's not to say that there's not going to be those moments where that shit hops out the door, but a Northron Kadian in Allanak isn't the same as a northron independent in Allanak.

[Asanadas]

I'm here to talk about drink prices in bars. Think this might be on topic. 

From my experience, I feel that the prices I've seen for pissale and other brews o' spirits in bars is way too high, on account of a couple of things. The first reason is, due to the way drinking works, drinking beer will make you less thirsty, which means you don't have to shell out for water. The second reason is, when you are buying the drink, you're also buying the cup it comes in (technically).

If anyone's ever gotten #halfelfwasted before, they'd soon realize that alcohol is not a hydrating liquid. Indeed, alcohol robs water from the body while filtering through your system. Although a bladder/urine system being implemented would be too overreaching, this could be clipped by either near-zero-ing the amount of thirst that ale relieves, or causing thirst gain to increase dramatically as the drink metabolizes through your character, growing more noticeable depending on how drunk you were. I don't have access to code, but I'm pretty sure that alcohol of all sorts offers less thirst-quenching than water, but still enough to justify high booze prices. Taking care of that would knock down that barrier.

The other problem are the cups you get your drinks in. These containers have intrinsic value (though very little) that is reflected in the high prices of spirits the Known over. Though that value is borderline worthless to the average player, it's still there. If you've ever gone to a bar, you know that they don't let you "buy" the glass that your draft comes in, though this may be different in the world of Armageddon where taverns are too rough-n-tumble to keep track of who owns what cup. I can think of two solutions to this. Either we are allowed to "sell" back the cup/mug/bottle/githskull for a fraction of the drink cost (which would also lead to bars being pristine and completely clear of all cups!), or we can implement water-seller code in bars to allow for drafts of drinks, after a fashion. Here's my example.

Code Select Expand

The tavern around you swelters with activity.
A bored bartender is standing here.
A tavern wench is here, watching over a collection of barrels.

>list bartender
[insert scroll of drink / cup options, along with "an empty mug" at around 3 'sid or so]
[ideally these prices would be lower by comparison to current prices anyways]

>buy #1
You purchase an empty mug, for 3 obsidian coins.

>list wench
The wench coos at you,
"I'll letcha have pissale, brawler's brew, or the good stuff."

>offer mug wench pissale
The wench coos at you,
"I can fill this up with that for 1 'sid."

etc.
Not only would this remove the value of the container from the drink prices in general, it would allow for much, much more drunken shenanigans and roleplay for players; they'd be able to portray an alcoholic without having to give up ever owning anything decent. The masterwork creation of custom drinking tankards would shoot through the roof. Alcohol should flow freely, to those that can stomach it. I feel it'd be both an improvement by IC and OOC measures.

[senseofeven]

I can dig that refill idea. Vennant goes through so many mugs that break on a daily basis cause people brawl nearly everyday in there. Bring your own cup, pay only for the liquid within.

Very soon we'd see people carrying casks/barrels/cisterns to refill from Vennant's brews. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm good with that idea - in fact, I really like it. And I don't have a problem with folks getting a barrel of swill for that long ass hunt.

I really like this idea.

[Cutthroat]

Refilling is a nice idea, and since it just uses the water buying code it should be easy to implement too.

With respect to other things, it's probably easier to give clanned people more money than it is to reduce the prices of every strangely overpriced item or service. (It also has the added benefit of facilitating more relationships between members of different clans as well as between clanned and indie people).

[Zoan]

Staff implement alcohol not hydrating any more.

And that was the day in which one of the largest elf tribes in the Known all died a week later.

[valeria]

Hasn't the price of alcohol already been reduced?  I seem to remember tankards of whatever costing more in the past than they currently do.

I do love the refill idea, though I'm not sure whether it's possible to have a liquid merchant sell more than one type of liquid.  I'd hate to see the available variety of cheap ale/spirits decrease.

[Is Friday]

Maybe, but the weapons and armors and silks and spice and wooden dressers and wagons must flow. The Templars of both cities understand that, and it's not honestly good for the cities to kill off too many of the merchantile persons they have to deal with to get anything neat they might need. That's not to say that there's not going to be those moments where that shit hops out the door, but a Northron Kadian in Allanak isn't the same as a northron independent in Allanak.

>login templar
>kill merchant
>kill 2.merchant
>psi 3.merchant Why aren't my tregil-embroidered pants ready yet? I've been waiting AGES. You better turn out better than the last merchant.

[Asanadas]

From just surface experience with water-seller code, it seems to me to be modular enough to allow for  multiple types of liquid to be sold at different price ranges.

If it's not, then a progbit and 24 code monkey hours should be able to fix it to do so.