The Clans and Economy Thread

[Ouroboros]

Lots of good things.

I agree, they do often self-correct. Sometimes they don't though and they become policy or "tradition". Such as the life-oath creep Italis mentioned, where Kadius went from a single reference of life-oaths in documentation to the x amount of ranks it's required for today, likely as a result of PC traditions in his words.

It's not really about playing styles though. Every leader has their own personality and preferences, and that's what makes the game unique and interesting. You have yours, I have mine, X-D kills everyo- I mean.. has his, and it's great. Some will enjoy their time under one leader, some under another, and each will walk away with whatever they felt makes a good leader and hopefully try to emulate it.

The problem happens when the decisions a PC leader makes start to be taken as scripture because they relate to policy. In the case of a lifeoath for example, how you (not you personally) like to play a leader isn't the issue. The issue is that if you today start requesting a lifeoath for rank "x" when it didn't need one, even if it's in your purview to do so as a leader, it sets precedent. And someone subjected to that, especially if they're new and might not know better, could think it's how things are supposed to be done. So when it's their turn, they might already take for granted that "x" rank really should be oathed. And they might think to themselves, "Why not Y rank too though, I mean that dude I'm considering promoting is a bit shifty... Eh, let's have him swear, just to be sure." Then that dude that was sworn into Y comes along in a leadership position a year later and thinks, "Hey, X and Y require an oath. And that dude I'm considering promoting to a Z is kinda shifty..." And thus we arrive to today. It's a generalization, but I think you can understand my point.

I'll stop telling people to stop being fuckups when people stop saying leaders owe them more fun. Still irked about that.

I feel ya. Preaching to the choir though.

On a more reasoned note...

Reason is good. As for being skeptical, you're not alone. Staff are currently testing that with the Legion, so eventually at least they'll know if it's a safe approach or needs adjustments. In the mean time, and in the humorous spirit of telling people to stop being fuckups, here's a thought... How about leaders stop feeling the need to share all these world-devastating secrets that they'd have to kill someone if they ever left a clan? How about the next time an employee with the slightest questionable aspect to them asks something sensitive they be responsible and say, "I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you!" Sheesh. TMI leaders, TMI.

So, what almost every post I have made on this thread try to address is, What has changed?

Honestly? They took the cool factor out of clans, that's what changed. The glass ceiling currently in place keeps players from anything truly great or cool to aspire to. The closing down of elite units did the same. The closing down of entire clans pushed that further. And it's not just clans. The cool factor was removed from numerous aspects of the game, in lieu of balance and realism or in retaliation to abuse. Commandable pets and NPCs that could be purchased... Objects like masks and scripted armor or weapons... The list is long, but would derail the thread.

I won't argue whether the changes improved the game or not, but I don't think anyone can argue against the fact these things were cool. Point is most of the changes players had to simply suck up and deal with. But they still have a choice in whether to join a clan. And as an indie, you have a lot more options. It's one of the few areas where you can be as cool as you can pull off. And with patience and ability, you can have an effect on the Known that even a Senior Agent or Noble can only dream of.

Players keep coming back to the issue of how much coin you can or can't earn, thinking it's what makes being an indie attractive. Truth is coin loses meaning quickly, and the point it loses meaning can be reached whether you're clanned or indie. And if it's your character's goal to reach that point, trust me, you can get there almost as quickly in a clan as outside it. What happens after that though is what makes or breaks a role. It's why I've consistently said the problem isn't with indies, it's with clans, and it isn't about coin.

If the word "cool" bothers someone, replace it with "wow factor" or "bling" or whatever suits them. What you call it doesn't matter so long as you understand the intent. But that's what's missing so if you want clans to thrive? Start bringing sexy back.


...No, ShaLeah, that's not what I mean.

[ShaLeah]

...No, ShaLeah, that's not what I mean.

Liar.

* ShaLeah rawrs a soft purr of a roar, waggling ^me brows at ~ouroboros.

[Lizzie]

I don't think we need to completely return to "how things were," to get some of that excitement back. There could be new, but similar things. Previously there were the Archives, the Expansion, the Conclave, the Red Fangs, the ALA (going back a LONG-ass way), the ability to roll up a desert elf that wasn't part of a coded tribe, the ability to roll up a desert elf that was part of an existing tribe that didn't have a coded camp, the *open* hiring of "war-mages" by Tor, the Ivory Guard, the Black Somethingorother of Kadius, gith spoke Heshrak, mantises terrorized the Red Desert in mini-clutches, halflings hung out on treetops in the Grey Forest...

Again, I'm not suggesting that the game suffers without this specific stuff. I'm saying it could be made better if more of this -kind- of stuff were returned.

Such as the "snowflake" clans and sub-clans (to use the example in a previous post about players wanting to play snowflakes). Players shouldn't have to feel like they need to play indies, in order to "be that snowflake." they could play in a clan where - if the player is lucky and the character is clever enough - they might be recruited into the secret society, or onto the Party-Argosy. Or into the Special Forces unit of the GMH. And maybe just one more desert elf clan - one that doesn't feel the need to stay in the tablelands, never interacting with anyone else, but who also isn't going to be hanging out in cities any longer than absolutely necessary, if ever. Something *like* the Red Fangs, even if it's not the same thing.

[BadSkeelz]

Reason is good. As for being skeptical, you're not alone. Staff are currently testing that with the Legion, so eventually at least they'll know if it's a safe approach or needs adjustments. In the mean time, and in the humorous spirit of telling people to stop being fuckups, here's a thought... How about leaders stop feeling the need to share all these world-devastating secrets that they'd have to kill someone if they ever left a clan? How about the next time an employee with the slightest questionable aspect to them asks something sensitive they be responsible and say, "I'd tell you, but I'd have to kill you!" Sheesh. TMI leaders, TMI.

Now you're just stuck in a Catch-22 of not involving players deeply enough in "plots" by keeping them in the dark, but a lot of plots need players to know what's happening so they can go farther.

I'll also take this time to say that the changes to the Legion (loose schedule, retirement) do nothing to dispel my idea that Tuluk is an effete, soft-core, drum-circle-filled coddled version of Armageddon. But that's just my limited perspective.

[rodic]

Err I know I'll just get "STFU NEWB" but whatever some sentiments in the thread piss me off.

As I guy who can't play all the time... or can't dedicate 4 hours consecutively to the game...

Being Clanned sucks.  Like it really sucks... sometimes if I know that no one is on, or if leadership is on and going to demand I "train" or whatever.  I just won't log back on.  Fuck it, I go play something else... even though I really like to play Armageddon.  

Can't leave the gates, can't make your own fun, can't find people on off peak/off usual play time, don't bother logging in on my day off at noon, cause no one in my clan... can't leave the gates, etc, etc.

Yet here I see in this thread... "MAKE IT HARD ON INDIES MWHAHAHAHAHHA"

Seriously... stop trying to restrict other people's play.  Like Just stop.
You don't know why some characters choose to be indie, you really have no clues IC or OOCly.  And for a player like me, its about the only damn way I can have fun.  I can't wait for the group to get together, get out the gates, following around the leader bored.  Can't quit out when I need too or do  shit if there is an emergency with kids or if I gotta run and grab a bottle for the baby.  
No one wants to deal with a person who constantly has to go AFK every 20/30 minutes.  Holding up the group.  I abuse the hell out of ranger quit, part of the reason I like it, and I got no shame about it.  IF I need to grab toddler escaping bedtime, make my newborn a bottle or if i wanna step out and smoke, or make myself a coffee.  

I hate being stuck, or abusing GONE all the time, just because I gotta put up with a clan schedule, missing Clan stuff because I HAD to go AFK. Or really really wanting to go grab a coffee or smoke, but can't cause I've gotta pay attention and throw out few emotes.  That shit can be work some days, its not FUN.
I rather just not log in, and honestly, that's a really bad sign.  I want to log in, I want to add another character to the world but I can't, because the "clan play" doesn't suit my RL responsibility/life.  And that sure as hell doesn't mean I should completely excluded from the game because I rather be able to take care of my kids, or fix myself a cup of coffee while I play.

Also I'm not going to take what little play time I have, waiting for whoever get their thumb out their ass so  I can hunt/train/whatever.  If I bound by the restrictions and rules of that clan/role, that a big problem if I've gotta perform some mental gymnastics to convince myself I'm having fun.

I'm not going to log in and pretty much unable to go to the tavern and interact because herp derp "Clan schedule", or log in with intent to do something but get held up cause a "meeting" or "training".  I have a real boss already, I don't need some nerd on a power trip dictating my text game time as well.

Shit sucks, shit is boring, and players like me will simply pack up and leave.  Why? Because we don't want to play those roles, so stop trying to "fix" clans by shitting all over the alternative play style.  IF indies are too rich/easy? Maybe they should stop abusing all that decades of OOC knowledge.  Believe me, a lone newbie hunter is EXTREMELY difficult in its own right.  Only reason indies are problem is because players in the know, abuse every single watering hole, map, and little secret they know to get ahead.  Wanna struggle as an indie? Stop abusing that OOC knowledge and actually role play out the struggle.  Stop demanding staff change the damn game, which is hard enough honestly, because YOU want a challenge.  Stop being so myopic that clan play is SOOOO much better, because if it actually was better, this thread wouldn't exist.

Maybe you should look at why people aren't joining the clans...  
Clan's can often be extremely restrictive and boring, I don't work all day, take care of my kids, clean the house and sit down to role play out more "work".  I play to have fun, don't take away what fun I CAN have because you got sour grapes that no one wants to sit around in the barracks all day grunting.

Basically Clans can be fun, but there are times... they aren't at all.  You can't expect people to play a game, or play the game YOU want if it isn't fun.  Make clans a more fun experience, and you'll have people clamoring to get in.
Also going after other players "fun" or making it harder to play the roles they like, screams "sour grapes" and immaturity.  Your clan sucks, deal with it, that's why people rather go solo hunt.  Yet I hear in this thread that "clans are oh soo great! so great in fact, we have to make it HARDER to be indie because clans are so great!"


/rant
With love, a Guy who rather play an indie hunter because its more FUN.
No hard feelings.

[racurtne]

I haven't really posted in this thread, but I do agree with Rodic's general sentiment. Some people don't like clan play. Some people don't have the time for clan play. I'd rather have more players whether they are in a clan or not. Indies do have a place in the world and I think that it should be up to players to police themselves as far as their RP is concerned. With that and staff oversight, I don't think we need to punish indies much more harshly.

I personally haven't played an indie since the beginning of 2010. I like clan play. Some don't. I think we should concentrate on making clans attractive while still maintaining a clanned feeling, rather than spoiling the indie scene (heh) entirely.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah I've gotta say... Take away the likely warranted rage and Rodic has a point. Being in a clan does require having the time for it, and it's possible part of the drop in clan participation is due to folks having lives (with spouses, kids, dogs, cats, bills, jobs).

Of course that just means clans need to be made attractive enough to convince folks to drop all that nonsense and focus on the game, which brings us back to the issue at hand.

Sidenote to Staff: When you do begin the surveys eventually, questions like these would get interesting statistics.

[ShaLeah]

With love, a Guy who rather play an indie hunter because its more FUN OOC'LY CONVENIENT.

FTFY

Ranger quit works clanned or not too! Also, I know people who are in clans who play two hours a day, or log in once a week. So that's kankshit right there.

In all seriousness, it sounds like you can't be bothered with the roleplay aspect that involves OTHERS. To each their own.

rather than spoiling the indie scene (heh) entirely.

I didn't say make it UNPLAYABLE. No character should be self sustainable out of char gen WITHOUT RISK.

[Lizzie]

I didn't get that from Rodic's tirade at all. What I got from it was: Rodic's life is so hectic that he's frustrated with his real life, angry and bitter about it, and wants to escape reality by parking a fictional character in one spot for an indeterminate length of time, and not have to worry about whether or not he has to actually interact with other characters while his is there.

Sounds like he needs either a first-person shooter, or a turn-based MUSH instead of an RPI. RPIs require interaction, and they require that you are actually paying attention to what's going on, because at any moment, something can happen that'll be the end of your character permanently. I'm sorry Rodic is going through such turmoil but really, Armageddon has no responsibility to fix it, and playing an indie just so you can step away from the computer to make coffee and have a cigarette or yes - even take care of your children - does not correlate with Armageddon needing to accommodate your "away from the keyboard" life.

Armageddon shouldn't be easier OR harder on players just because players want to get away from the keyboard. That shouldn't even be a consideration. That's a player-side concern, not a game-side concern, and you should have absolutely zero expectations to that end from the creators of Armageddon (or any other game for that matter).

Some people don't like clan play. That's the only useful information you can get from Rodic's post. And it's true. Some don't. The question is - how can clan play be made more attractive to those people who MIGHT play in clans? If you have no intention of playing in clans because they're clans - then this entire thread doesn't even apply to you at all.

But for people who WOULD want to play in a clan, if clan play was made more attractive - there have been several ideas to do that here on this thread, and others.

[BadSkeelz]

FUCK KIDS

RP WITH MEEEEEEEEEE

[Cutthroat]

Clans being appealing or not appealing seems largely a matter of taste, and will depend on how or why you play the game at all in the first place. Clans are more restrictive and offer better access to certain kinds of plots (depending on the clan), while independence is less restrictive and offers less access to the plots clans usually get into, but they can still have plots of their own. That's pretty much the basis of Arm, and frankly any of the few RPIs out there. That's not really going to change, and there's nothing wrong with preferring one or the other. But if you've already decided that you dislike all clans, then there isn't really a point in discussing how to improve them, unless you are open to trying a clan sometime.

The latest set of problems discussed in this thread seems to arise not from anything strongly represented in-game currently, but past impressions of the game and experiences coloring people's current view. To those who clans appeal to, they are in a pretty good state at the moment, with some having changed recently and some others possibly in the process of changing. Like anything in the game, exact numbers tend to fluctuate with people's willingness to try or not try something different after their character dies or goes into storage. But people tend to be nostalgic and/or let perfect be the enemy of good. Life oaths, indies, clans, etc. aren't bad all the time or good all the time.

I'm not saying that things shouldn't be improved where possible, and there could always be improvements to be made with stuff like clan documentation to handle things like clan pay and instances of when life oaths are offered, or matching the the difficulties of areas outside cities with the documentation that says that citizens of the city-states fear going outside of their protection, but some of the perceived problems are definitely being overblown.

[rodic]

I didn't get that from Rodic's tirade at all. What I got from it was: Rodic's life is so hectic that he's frustrated with his real life, angry and bitter about it, and wants to escape reality by parking a fictional character in one spot for an indeterminate length of time, and not have to worry about whether or not he has to actually interact with other characters while his is there.

Sounds like he needs either a first-person shooter, or a turn-based MUSH instead of an RPI. RPIs require interaction, and they require that you are actually paying attention to what's going on, because at any moment, something can happen that'll be the end of your character permanently. I'm sorry Rodic is going through such turmoil but really, Armageddon has no responsibility to fix it, and playing an indie just so you can step away from the computer to make coffee and have a cigarette or yes - even take care of your children - does not correlate with Armageddon needing to accommodate your "away from the keyboard" life.

Armageddon shouldn't be easier OR harder on players just because players want to get away from the keyboard. That shouldn't even be a consideration. That's a player-side concern, not a game-side concern, and you should have absolutely zero expectations to that end from the creators of Armageddon (or any other game for that matter).

Some people don't like clan play. That's the only useful information you can get from Rodic's post. And it's true. Some don't. The question is - how can clan play be made more attractive to those people who MIGHT play in clans? If you have no intention of playing in clans because they're clans - then this entire thread doesn't even apply to you at all.

But for people who WOULD want to play in a clan, if clan play was made more attractive - there have been several ideas to do that here on this thread, and others.

Again I never ask for anything then others to stop with the make harder on indies because their clan sucks and no one wants to play in it.

I was tired of hearing "Indies need it harder" when clearly its hard enough.  Yeah I raged a little. Deal with it.  Clans can suck, and I would like to play the game too, so trying destroy indie play style is so grossly myopic and functionally wrong from design point. That I decided to speak up.

As well there is no turmoil in my life, don't pretend you know me as a player or as person, it was insulting and uncalled for.  



Your Ad hominem attacks speak volumes though, mainly about you.


How's them sour grapes?

[racurtne]

rather than spoiling the indie scene (heh) entirely.

I didn't say make it UNPLAYABLE. No character should be self sustainable out of char gen WITHOUT RISK.

I'm on board with that.  I just don't think the solution is to pile on indie hate. I think the solution is to make clans more attractive. The first option just leaves some people feeling bitter, whereas the second option is good for everybody. That's all I'm talking about.

edit:Indies should still have it hard IC, don't get me wrong. We just don't need to push too far in that direction. I'm advising caution is all.

[Barzalene]

I think there are times when indies will be more attractive for the same reason that clans are more attractive. Someone wonderful will make all those hardships feel exciting. They'll be charismatic enough to care out a place for them. And if the established clans have an issue with it they can play the part of antagonist.

Some day Kadius will be the best place to play. Because someone amazing will find amazing things for everyone to do. And the issues of pay and curtailed freedoms will be non-issues. Later it will be Kurac. The Byn.

I think elite units and better pay are worth considering.

I just don't think things are that broken.

Rodic, I in no way think you should stfu or are less entitled to an opinion because you are new. I do think that you shouldn't be too quick to give up on clans. You may find that sometimes they suck. Sometimes they rock. You have to be in the right place at the right time. Also, don't be too quick to want to make indie life easy. Once you're on the other side of the learning curve you might find the challenges really enjoyable.

[Fathi]

I feel like people make such a big deal on the GDB about swearing oaths compared to the actual game.

I've played a few PCs that eventually rose up to leader-level in their respective clans. Two of them were required to swear their blood to their organisation and/or go through arcane promotion rituals and blah blah.

Both of them were able to finagle a way out of the clan without dying eventually. One was offered the ability to buy her oath back and receive the equivalent of an honourable discharge. The other was given a couple plot specific tasks to fulfill and was allowed to take her leave.

I've found staff very willing to work with me on this issue in the past. PC leaders took more buttering up and bribing, but it worked on them, too.

The shift toward requiring everybody and his mum to swear an oath seems to be a recent development, since I certainly didn't force that on anyone back when I ran Salarr in 07-08 or Kurac in 08-10. It was an option if people wanted it and it came with extra perks and a lot more trust from the boss, but it was by no means required. I viewed it like the difference between hiring contractors vs. hiring an employee and training them up from scratch.

It's important to remember that if you're a good enough employee and you butter your boss up nicely, they will likely be OK with trying to break the rules for you in the future.

[James de Monet]

I think I see a common thread that people think the golden age was when -they- played and when -they- were the leader.
Nice backhanded way to say leaders now or at other times are no good.

That's actually not what I was saying at all, and I certainly wasn't leading all those clans at the times mentioned. These "Golden Age" periods come more from the preponderance of GDB posters who look back on them fondly.  That doesn't mean other eras (including the present) in those clans didn't rock. It also doesn't actually mean it was the best that clan ever was. Just that it was the best that clan ever was as remembered by veteran players who also still post on the GDB and had first hand knowledge of the clan in question at the time of the awesomeness.

In no way, shape, or form should anyone take that as dispersion on their own clan contributions or experiences.

And if someone feels bad because they weren't around for these fabled "Golden Eras"? Simple solution. Turn NOW into gold.. Be the next Berlian. The next Shatuka. The next Malenthis.  Is that actually simple? No. It's a combination of good ideas, well planned characters, timing, allies, and game events. But it is in everyone's power to try, to contribute.




Also, Lizzie, there's no need to piss in Rodic's Cheerios.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying the game as it is based on your life and habits, as long as you aren't twinkling or docs breaking.  Granted, we can't always keep those aspects of the game that we love. Sometimes they change for the greater good. But there's no need to bust someone's balls for enjoying them now. 

[Ouroboros]

The latest set of problems discussed in this thread seems to arise not from anything strongly represented in-game currently, but past impressions of the game and experiences coloring people's current view.

Considering past and present are being compared in those parts of the discussion, I think those impressions and experiences are valid in context. Just because something in the present is good, doesn't mean you can seek to improve it, especially when you've experienced it in a better fashion. You can't move forward without knowing your past, as the saying goes.

I'm not saying that things shouldn't be improved where possible, and there could always be improvements to be made with stuff like clan documentation to handle things like clan pay and instances of when life oaths are offered, or matching the the difficulties of areas outside cities with the documentation that says that citizens of the city-states fear going outside of their protection, but some of the perceived problems are definitely being overblown.

Things being improved where possible is usually the driving force of discussions like this. And as a forum vet I think you know well enough that when we place specific problems under the GDB microscope, they often come out looking bigger than they are. That doesn't invalidate them, it just means they should be taken with a grain of salt. If through such heated discussions though we manage to fix even a minor issue here and there, I think the game is healthier for it. It certainly beats not mentioning a problem at all, however minor, if it could be addressed.

I was tired of hearing "Indies need it harder" when clearly its hard enough.  Yeah I raged a little. Deal with it.  Clans can suck, and I would like to play the game too, so trying destroy indie play style is so grossly myopic and functionally wrong from design point. That I decided to speak up.

Rodic, don't stress over the indie hate. It can be hard, especially when every other thread someone's telling indies to suck it, but it's harmless. Indies are just the bogeymen of the GDB, the group that everyone loves to hate. They're responsible for just about everything wrong in the game, even when they have nothing to do with something. From economy issues to clans to combat balance to foul weather and cows drying up to you name it. Something sucks because... indies.

Just smile and nod and keep playing what you enjoy playing, whatever that might be. Now and then try to get out of your comfort zone, just to test the waters and keep things interesting. But definitely don't let yourself get riled up over this, and don't think that staff is in the habit of making sweeping changes just because someone used caps and asked a lot. Next week it'll be North vs South, then magickers, after that warriors, then rangers, and from rangers naturally back to indies since we all know every indie is a ranger, right?

Both of them were able to finagle a way out of the clan without dying eventually.

Sadly you're not the exception in that, Fathi. It's something both Lizzie and I raised earlier, as one of the issues with oaths. They can be anything but life-long often enough that it's taken away from their meaning. On paper they should be as hard to get out of as prying a gem off your neck. Since reality differs though, at least if the option of retirement is integrated across the board it gives a way out that's justified. And that would not only address a few other issues with life oaths, but make them less of a joke when a character inevitably gets out of one.

[Dresan]

As far as the perception that "elite clans like the Outriders are no longer allowed, so people don't want to play in a clan," I think that's a viewpoint  problem. For me at least, every GMH, noble, or militia clan is elite, compared to the masses of unwashed (V)NPCs our characters are usually struggling to rise above. Even a standard no-frill artisan in a GMH is worlds above an unaffiliated crafter-grebber in terms of resources, prestige, and safety. We as players shouldn't forget that.

You shouldn't underestimate viewpoint then and more specifically how people perceive a certain concept. Do you know how horrible it is to be stuck at luirs with no one to play with and a schedule to follow for almost a RL month? Once upon a time I did that though after I read the gunslinger by stephen king. It was either the gunslinger or watched a marathon of clint eastwood western movies.  Mind you, Kurac was a different clan then it is now. Still, every time i see a clint eastwood western I just think of outriders and wish I could play one.

To be honest, I don't know what it is about outriders specifically that I find so appealing. They just seem like the pinnacle of desert badassery. If you are surrounded by tons of gith, your wagon is down, you got people hurt and dying all around you and suddenly a single outrider shows up....you're saved!! Its ridiculous but these silly ideas drive people to endure so much mundane boring shit within the clan for so long, just for a chance to achieve that raging concept and image in their heads.

Sorry you can't really get the same feeling with positions anyone with the right shape of ears and a pulse can join. I know joining a clan is supposed to be considered amazing in game but from an ooc point of view its not a huge deal. Becoming an outrider in-game was a big achievement. That said, the people who applied for sponsored outrider roles don't count (they should have left it an in game achievement anyways).  

[Fujikoma]

I get where Rodic's coming from, I've largely avoided posting in this thread because I already said my piece and that's that, however, sayying one's piece once doesn't seem to be enough for a good segment the "suck it, indies" crowd, no matter how many times they say it. I just assume they're trolling, me being trolled, yeah, wow, not a big deal, considering I post things just to irritate some of them, but it's obvious it's not just me. I agree that shitting all over someone else's playstyle is not productive, and certainly not a good way to increase player count. Don't run off the newbs, damnit.

We get it, you don't like indies, or them having coin, being able to survive, make things or even make cool shit happen. That's fine, that's your individual take on the game. It stops being fine when it starts seeming like an outright and continuous attack on anyone who doesn't think exactly as you do. Granted, there are IG rules to follow, and concepts to adhere to, but for the most part some of us think your clan sucks, and it's quite possibly because of the way it's being run, which might possibly be taken personally. There's two solutions, 1) bitch on the GDB about how indies have it too easy or 2) buck up and accept that hey, maybe there's something I can do to lure these players to my clan. I'd like to think the latter more productive, though the former certainly seems to hold more appeal to some.

I for one enjoy making my own schedule, deciding for myself who my enemies and allies are, and picking which expenses are of importance to me. I like the added risk that comes with playing an indie and managing it however I choose to. It can feel a little isolated at times, but I mostly take this as a sign that there's something that could use improvement on my part, not something that everyone else is responsible for. If put in a leadership position in a clan, I think we could all have fun, but I always hit a barrier with people who take things just a tad bit too seriously, so I don't even bother. You may have your reasoning for it, but I don't have to agree, so I'll take my ball and play elsewhere.

Meanwhile, the gist of the current conversation seems to be, open up the cool units, which, I can get behind that. I think it would really add a bit of appeal, as well as rethink the life oath, which that is another concern, as who wants to be life-oathed when some "suck it indies" denier of personal responsibility steps in with a sponsored role and makes everything double-plus unfun? Rather than choose to see indies as a potentially useful and productive niche, some elect to view them as an enemy and would rather the entire ecosystem stagnate than admit that yes, maybe something could be done to improve clans. I make this assumption because all efforts to suggest making clans more appealing are either shot down or ignored entirely in favor of useless bitching. I'm usually quite hesitant to deliver such criticism, and it's quite likely I've just let myself be trolled, but it grates on my nerves.

[Lizzie]

I play a LOT of indies because I generally don't like clanned play anymore. So anyone who's thinking of *me* as one of those "suck it indies" people need to take a few steps back and calm the fuck down.

My opinion comes from my experiences, based on over a decade of playing, back when playing in a clan was BIG DEAL and there were "secrets" to "unlock" in each clan. Those secrets have either been completely retconned or made virtual, and are no longer available for players to learn about IG, and aren't on the history pages of the official game docs.

I see coded risk in playing an independent who leaves the city, but the risk is minimal once you've experienced it a few times. You know where all the mobs spawn, you know how to avoid them, you know how to kill them, you know how to get past them. Knowing where they ARE makes it EASY to play an independent. It doesn't need to be made difficult to play one, but it does need to be made less easy. It used to be ridiculously difficult, and I don't think anyone wants to have to return to that.

But looking at how quickly the shops are filled up with 5 of each, how many characters prosper, how difficult it is to hire - and keep - clanned hunters - tells me that SOMEONE is having a much easier time of it than they should.

If you want it easy, make an aide role that sits in the taverns all day. That's easy. If you want to go out hunting and killing dangerous creatures without a crew of hunters you trust to watch your back, then accept that it isn't, and shouldn't, be easy. It is, and should, be a challenge. I think it should be more challenging to solo-hunt. Not to be an indie, but to be one - without friends. No one should be able to walk out of the city gates, go into a common hunting area, and then go AFK while they make a cup of coffee, and expect their character to still be there when they get back.

That is an unreaslistic expectation. And by "unrealistic" I mean in an OOC way, not an IC way. The player should not be able to expect safety with their "gone" character. That was what Rodic was harping on, and why I shot back as I did.

If he has been able to expect safety when he does this, then there is something WRONG with the game. The game should NOT be offering him this expectation.

[racurtne]

I think you misread then. When he said that stuff he was talking about using ranger quit.

Also, he mentioned using GONE if he was playing in a clan, forcing people to wait on him to continue RPing with him in certain circumstances.

[Lizzie]

I think you misread then. When he said that stuff he was talking about using ranger quit.

Also, he mentioned using GONE if he was playing in a clan, forcing people to wait on him to continue RPing with him in certain circumstances.

Ah I did misread, you're right. I apologize to Rodic. However, the point still stands, in general: I don't think people are trying to make the game _harder_ for indies, because I don't think it's all that hard in the first place anymore. I think people want to return *some* of the challenge that used to exist, that no longer exists, to give players more of a reason to WANT to "group up" (as it's called in other games). And I still maintain that if you need to log out that often, then you should have your smoke and make your coffee before you log on. That way, you'll need to go "gone" or use your ranger quit less often, to take care of your family when/as needed.

If you're in a clan, and you're playing a ranger, you can STILL do that, and no one expects anything from you, and no one will have to wait for you to be "ungone." Just ooc to them that you have to leave, and then leave. And when you log back in, catch up with them wherever they are. If you are playing a ranger, you can track them.

[Cutthroat]

The latest set of problems discussed in this thread seems to arise not from anything strongly represented in-game currently, but past impressions of the game and experiences coloring people's current view.

Considering past and present are being compared in those parts of the discussion, I think those impressions and experiences are valid in context. Just because something in the present is good, doesn't mean you can seek to improve it, especially when you've experienced it in a better fashion. You can't move forward without knowing your past, as the saying goes.

I'm not saying that things shouldn't be improved where possible, and there could always be improvements to be made with stuff like clan documentation to handle things like clan pay and instances of when life oaths are offered, or matching the the difficulties of areas outside cities with the documentation that says that citizens of the city-states fear going outside of their protection, but some of the perceived problems are definitely being overblown.

Things being improved where possible is usually the driving force of discussions like this. And as a forum vet I think you know well enough that when we place specific problems under the GDB microscope, they often come out looking bigger than they are. That doesn't invalidate them, it just means they should be taken with a grain of salt. If through such heated discussions though we manage to fix even a minor issue here and there, I think the game is healthier for it. It certainly beats not mentioning a problem at all, however minor, if it could be addressed.

I don't have a problem with the problems in the game being addressed and worked on, and like I said, I also think the game could stand to be improved by threads like these. Even if staff don't necessarily change the game on their own, players who play or will play leader PCs can draw ideas from threads like this in their effort to make their clans better. Not to go too much on this particular tangent that was in this thread earlier as well, but this is also a good reason not to blame leader PCs for clans not being "fun enough" - it detracts from the fact that players of leader PCs are generally testing the water how they can, to figure out if what they are doing is enjoyable to others.

I just think that when people are starting to say that the "Golden Ages" were the times clans were at their most fun, their own limited viewpoint (due to being a player, and not an omniscient staff member) may have caused them to miss fun stuff going on elsewhere, and ultimately assume those other clans were not fun. Getting inspiration from past experiences to improve on clan experiences today is a good idea, but we should also accept that different experiences are going to be, well, different. That's part of what makes the game fresh enough for people to continue playing it.

[X-D]

I believe that all the clans were fun...I do not pick one over the other.

But here is another thing that has, in my experience, gone missing. Rivalry. Again, going back 8-15 years, during that time, all the clans were rivals...Oh sure, the GMH would close ranks verses the other clans and the nobles would close ranks verses GMH and northern noble clans etc, but there was tons of interclan rivalry.

It was great fun...as example...sometime between 2002 and 2004 I played in winrothal, worked up from recruit to LT over the course of many game years....Now Winrothal just hated Tenneshi...and likely Tenneshi hated us. We in Winrothal were always doing whatever we could to undermine Tenneshi. My LT and his two sarges had quite the game going, and that game was, Get Tenneshi to recruit all the fuckups...we became quite successful with that.

Or playing in salarr and considering Kadius to be a second rate house and Kurac  and its "snort" outriders to be a bunch of self inflated spice addled blowhards.

Now, this type of thing could easily come back with simply players...no need to change docs or have staff change anything.

[Red Ranger]

Becoming an outrider in-game was a big achievement. That said, the people who applied for sponsored outrider roles don't count (they should have left it an in game achievement anyways).  

This is an important (derailing!) detail that I'll echo: one of the many things that made the Outriders so awesome was that once upon a time it was something that could only be achieved through IC toil, which made playing one much rarer than playing a noble or templar.

Back on topic (sort of): I'm personally very much in favor of moving away from "life swearing" for low level peons and killing them if they try to leave the clan after a week. IMO this is a result of an OOC contest for recruits, whereas IC'ly recruits shouldn't be scarce at all.

There is an OOC vs. IC supply/demand mismatch when it comes to clan recruits. It leads to this behavior here:

So yeah, I can understand recruiting every PC you can grab.  Because you have to hope that somewhere in there you've got that one lump of gold - if you can sift it out before someone steals your pan.

Snapping up every recruit totally makes sense within the context of the internecine conflict of Zalanthas where clans and individuals compete for scarce resources. Except IC'ly recruits aren't a scarce resource. It's only OOC'ly that they're scarce.

I'm with IsFriday on this:

I'm of the opinion that hiring "just anyone" is harmful to most organizations (you can debate which ones on your own time/in a diff thread). Here are some reasons/examples:
1.) When your employees mess up, even your "recruits", it brings upon consequences for your organization. Leaders, especially those that worked hard for their position, don't want their gravy train/next promotion on the line because random douchebag recruit decided to start a fight with AoD. Oh yeah, that's the 3rd recruit you've had that started trouble with the law. Oh yeah, because of that, the Templar just cancelled his orders for X and X--instead he's going to go with someone else for weapons, just to spite you.

Or there should be consequences for the leaders when the peons crap the bed, at least for image conscious clans.

I've shared my opinion on this before:

I think there is a distortion of the supply and demand for potential hirelings in the eyes of leader PCs.  In my opinion, to a leader PC in a given city there is often a limited pool of hireling PCs compared to the large number of positions that multiple PC clans are trying to fill.  Thus OOC'ly the hiring scene can often play out like a "sellers' markers" where the potential PC hirelings shop around to get the best deal, which can include shopping around for a coddling and nonjudgmental employer PC who is willing to overlook many flaws in their PC employees and who may also go to war to protect their low level PC "snowflakes."

But there are additional ways to help correct the current situation of OOC hiring concerns directly contradicting and trumping IC hiring concerns.  This is a roleplaying game after all, and we're all supposed to be acting IC'ly based on IC concerns.  After all, isn't the OOC incentive for elves to ride mounts?  OOC'ly it costs the riding elf less stamina when they travel around, so what's not to like?   Isn't the OOC incentive for leader PCs to have magickers on the payroll?  After all, magickers are powerful and one magicker might be able to do the specialized work that any number mundane PCs can't.  Fortunately I haven't heard of a riding elf in many many years, and in my view the exceptions made for magicky PC employment in major clans have dramatically declined (though I guess maybe the exceptions made for magicky PC mudsex haven't declined).

My preferred solution to the problem that I see in the OOC versus IC supply/demand mismatch in PC hirelings is... more conscientious RP.  IC'ly hirelings don't have any rights, nor should they have a sense of entitlement to a good job with reasonable working conditions, those are silly RL notions that literally don't exist in Zalanthas.  Similarly employers shouldn't (typically) feel pressured IC to hire folks just to fill the ranks.  Having hirelings shouldn't be an important end in itself for most clan leaders, but rather Doing Something Important^TM should be the end that is sought by PC leaders and IC'ly rewarded.  If Doing Something Important^TM requires making exceptions when hiring PCs and then coddling those PCs (which could be often!) then great, but there should also be an IC downside to nobles hiring mumbly mouthed dwarves who can't even speak the King's Sirihish properly, to merchants that employ halfbreeds, or to any leader who has a reputation for flying off the handle over trivial injuries to their mek-fodder peons who will be dead in a month.

Align the OOC and IC incentives, people!  Let's RP!

The gold sifting recruiters might be a bit more careful about scooping up everything they find if instead of mostly mud they occasionally get a venomous snake.

Also, this whole 2-page thread is worth a read: Are clans too nice to their minions?

edit: typo