The Clans and Economy Thread

[RogueGunslinger]

I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).

[X-D]

I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).

I don't either.

I feel that the only people who are going to be saying that money is worthless in this game are older, veteran players who know where all the secrets are at and how to abuse them regularly.  To make matters worse, they likely fail to find an effective plot-driven money-sink, so they spend all their time in-game buying up a ton of useable resources and then complaining that the staff don't run enough RPTs or something.  Those of us who play the game moderately, do not worry ourselves over time-out triggers, aren't zerg-rushing the NPC merchants every time there's a reset, are newbies, play short hours, or strictly rely on clan play are not drowning in money and may find that the economy is either right where it should be OR may actually even pose a challenge.

I do not think anybody said money is worthless. But Many Vet players have realized that it is not all that important...at least not all the time and not all PCs. I don't know what these secrets might be to abuse so I will leave that one be. Zerg rushing the NPC merchants is newb tactic anyway...especially now that NPC merchants sell stuff over time.  Plot driven money sink? Mind explaining?

As to prices...most if not all of us agree that pricing is rather skewed...Sure, food can be high, water too, Booze though, Meh, it should be lower, at least things like ale, mead...commoners type crap booze...But sadly there is no arm version of Bud lite or keystone...well, there is, but damm, it is priced like hennessy XO

[FantasyWriter]

I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).

Agreed. My assumption has always been that people who prefer to play in clans want their cake (the cash that indies make but have to spend on food/water/supplies/protection) and eat it (get all of said stuff for free from their clan), too.

Edit to add: Also, If you are working for a clan and your only source of income is your salary, you aren't being very creative... or Zalanthan.

[Evilone]

Easily keeping so many coins comes back to a problem with the banks I think. With one of my wealthy characters id try to keep a chest of coins... as well as use the bank... that way it presented an opportunity for thieves and such too.. but maybe Amos the indepedant shouldnt be able to store 5k+ in the bank... maybe he has to keep it locked in his apartment or warehouse or something?

[James de Monet]

I'm not really sure I understand what's wrong with indie characters having a lot of coins(not all of them do), other than clanned folks have disproportionately less(not all of them do either).

I don't think anyone is saying anything is wrong with it other than that.  Just that the whole wealth scheme of the world is...wonky.

I guess the reason people want to go after indie hunters because of it is simply that indie hunters seem to generally be the furthest outside the documented paradigm in terms of expendable wealth.

I imagine ICly, most people would expect the wealth distribution to look something like this (increasing in personal, expendable wealth from top to bottom):

[The Broke]

• Prisoners
• Slaves

[The Poor-Average]

• Beggars (indie)
• Dung Sweepers (indie)
• Grebbers (indie)
• Mercenaries (clanned)
• Soldiers (clanned)
• GMH Hunters (clanned)
• GMH Guards (clanned)
• Hunters (indie)

[The Above Average]

• GMH White Collar Employees (clanned)
• Noble Guards (clanned)
• Militia Officers and White Collar Employees (clanned)
• Merchants (indie +/-)
• Noble White Collar Employees (clanned)

[LARGE WEALTH DISPARITY]

[The Wealthy]

• GMH Merchants (clanned)
• Templars (clanned)
• Nobles (clanned)

But in reality, on the noticeable average, it seems that indie hunters have completely jumped the shark, out of the "poor-average" category of wealth, up two levels to "the wealthy".  Again, this is based on the perception of discretionary income.  It has little to do with how much they have in the bank, or how much total coin they are spending.  Just what they seem to be dropping on their average large purchases.  It is possible that that system of measurement is totally flawed, but it's what people see.


*Some may take issue with my ordering.  And I think we all know "Indie Merchants" can really fall anywhere along that scale, depending on what they sell, where, and to whom.

[a french mans shirt]

I thought staff said that Templars were going to be given the least, in what I've theorized is like an analogue of how the timekeepers are paid in the movie In Time if anyone's seen it. Probably off, but I'm thinking not too far off. Spoilers for the analogy in white.

Basically, the timekeepers do a templar's job in a society about as poor as our own in some parts but money is actually time people use to survive. To keep timekeepers from being constantly mugged and killed in the more dangerous zones, they are given very little time that must be constantly replenished so they don't die. I was thinking maybe pc templars are considered foot-soldiers in the more powerful world of politics, to be reminded of their place, since while they have ultimate power over most civilians, they are barely-trusted bottom rankers in the pyramid of power, where trust is the single most valuable asset apart from the personal ability to tear other peoples' throats out with your teeth faster than they can do to you.... course I haven't played a templar so I don't know.

[williamson]

I've finally read all these posts and I thought I'd make a few comments. Before you can fix a problem, you need to determine exactly what the problem is. I'm going to define the problem as this: "Over the last several few years, clan membership has decreased and independent play has increased. The playerbase and staff wish to change this." Now that we've identified the problem, we need to try to figure out why this is and what's causing it. Compared to last year, I've noticed that one problem is there are simply less players during "primetime" when compared to last year. I frequently noticed player numbers in the 70s last year, this year it's typically around 50. So one factor might be that less people are playing which effects both groups. Adding new players and retaining players that have quit will help.


Overtime, magick has been forced out of nearly all clans. Of the current guilds available for play, 9 of the 16 guilds are magick guilds. The magick system of Armageddon is spectacular and one of the most fun aspects of the game. However, for 56% of all guilds the game offers there is only one clan for them to join. Thus everyone that wants to play with and use this fantastic system will likely be playing as an independent. Compound this with the negative stigma and prejudice of playing a magicker in Allanak and it makes it even more likely that these players will be playing independents. Next, these roles require karma which means that we are forcing players that have proven themselves capable leaders and have developed staff trust out of clans and into playing independents. Over time, these rogue magickers find each other and form various groups. These groups composed of veteran players with proven leadership abilities attract followers and drive interesting plots which compound the effects of attracting more people to play independents. Additionally, there is a chance that Amos the super-independent hunter that everyone thinks is a twinked out independent ranger might actually be one of these 9 guilds with a carefully selcted subguild, and he/she is fooling everyone. This also adds to the misconception of the successful independent. Thus, a side effect of forcing magick out of clans has resulted in more independent players.


Another problem is that most of the open clans are not adequately filled. I counted 22 open clans. There simply aren't enough players to adequately fill all these clans. This is why every new human gets six job offers within one week of play. It's even worse if you're a half-giant. I think we need less open clans. The clans left open need to have larger playerbases. One reason I feel the Byn is currently successful is because it has a large playerbase. At one point, there were three active Sergeants in the Byn who played heavily. The result was it attracted a lot of players. There was always a leader to "take you out" and frequent contracts that needed to be filled. I theorize that if you took all the players in the Byn and dropped them into House Borsail that House Borsail would become "the cool clan." If there are about 50 players during "primetime," even if everyone played in a clan that leaves only 2-3 players per clan. When you consider the number of independents, there actually many clans that often have no one or only one player online at a time. This results is difficultly with developing plots, difficulty recruiting, and increased boredom. These factors lead to players leaving clans or storing. Independents with more freedom are free to follow the playerbase to where the players are. Since independents can simply move instead of store, they retain their wealth and skill without having to start from scratch.


Someone mentioned the idea of a hunter's guild. Personally, I feel this is a bad idea because it's likely to draw players out of existing clans such as the Byn and split them into small group with less and less players online together. Additionally, you can currently hire the Byn to hunt for you. To a certain degree, they can already function as a hunter's guild. I see little value in duplicate clans.


Someone mentioned that clans need to offer better gear and elite groups. However, I find that elite groups offer little more than a title. Once people are in these groups, they'll lose their allure and people will play elsewhere. If each clan has an elite group, then there aren't enough players to adequately fill all the roles and the group would stagnate. As far as gear, I've noticed that "special gear" is usually as valuable as a fancy coat of paint. It looks nice and fancy. However, if you can't kill a carru with a regular sword, you're unlikely to suddenly kill one because you just bought a fancy sword from House Salarr. That's just my opinion, maybe I'm just buying the wrong sword.

Someone mentioned that we need to eliminate banks and that would force wealthy and successful independents into clans. I disagree with this idea. OOCly the bank functions as an important way to remove wealth from the game. When a character dies, the wealth vanishes into House Nenyuk instead of into the hands of the killer of the PC. Additionally, there is no bank in Red Storm. Despite this, most characters in Red Storm are independents. A previous character of mine was a wealthy independent based in Red Storm, he accumulated an enormous fortune. He didn't use the bank and avoided Allanak, Tuluk, and eventually even Luir's. You can make a lot of money by simply selling things to PCs that they want, especially if it's difficult to obtain. If indys couldn't use banks, there would simply develop an alternative currency. It might be gems, mount tickets, magickal things, or written vouchers. Some people would just keep their money in their apartments. Unfortunately, when these people died, their wealth would remain in game and inflation would develop. As long as there is supply and demand, there will always be ways to make coins for the clever and hard working.


Here are my suggestions about changes that I think would attract more people into clans:

1) Close some of the dead open clans while at the same time remove player limits on the clans that remain open. Only have two open noble houses in each city. The noble houses that are open should have a minimum of two active nobles and at least one trusted non-noble leader. Lots of active leaders means not waiting around for the boss to log into the game. More leaders means more plots and more stipdends to spend on minions. The GMHs should have four to six leaders for the same reasons.

2) I think the GMHs should function as one group instead of a northern and southern group. One of the perks of being in a GMH is that you should be able to freely travel between the cities without the prejudice and persecution that independents face. You should be able to sit in the Gaj with your northern accent and easily seen Tuluki caste tattoos and be left alone as long as you're wearing your GMH colors. Merchants in the GMHs should be allowed to trade their wares to their House NPC merchants and keep all the profits just like independents can. They should be allowed to haul their goods between the cities in caravans or wagons and keep all their profits just like independents can. If this happened, GMH employees would quickly become the wealthiest characters just like they should be.

3) I feel that clans also need some additional perks for their long term members. For example, GMH employees of appropriate rank could give large donations (such as 25k) to their clan's bank account. In return, these employees would earn a point of influence. These characters could then spend their influence points to purchase things only available to important members of their House. The options for spending these influence points would be specific to each clan. For example, Kadians might be able to purchase a rank of virtual training for new skills such as cavilish, clothworking, jewelrymaking, stonecrafting, or leather working. Other options might be purchasing an extra mastercraft for the month or learning cavilish literacy. The point being that you could spend your influence to obtain things that you normally couldn't outside the clan. Noble Houses, tribes, military clans and would need different criteria for earning influence and likewise offer different clan specific rewards. I think things like this would do a good job of attracting and retaining clanned PCs.

Once upon a time House Tor asked a beautiful damsel "Will you lifeswear to me?" and the beautiful damsel said "NO!" and the beautiful damsel lived happily ever after and rode silt skimmers and mud sexed handsome Benjari tribals and hunted and raced erdlu sleds and went to naked gypsy parties and seduced men half her age and smoked Melem Tuek, Thodeliv and Zharal and drank Sejah from the keg and never waited for a missing leader and went to parties in both city states and kept an apartment full of souvenirs and all her family and friends thought she was fucking cool as drov and she had tons of coins. The End.

I think there is a certain measure of truth to Bushranger's humorous story. Clans need to offer better attractions to seduce the players away from the wonders independence. That's just some of my thoughts on the matter...

[racurtne]

Templars are expected to supplement their income creatively. Bribes, merchant tokens, 'taxes', or anything else they can think up becomes their pay.

[FantasyWriter]

Nice post, Williamson.

[Harmless]

maybe clan pay just doesn't scale appropriately. I think recruit wages (i.e., 0), starting wages (100-400 a month or so is what I see on average for GMH), and the first promotion wages (200-500 or so a month) are fine, but maybe after that the pay should take a huge jump to truly reflect the increase in trust. 1000. 2000 a month. Something so large it clearly will stimulate plots and be a true cash reward.

[Dresan]

I think in regards to open and closed clans, the game is already running a bare minimum.

These days Noble houses on each side only hire a very small amount of people, an aide or two at the most. They take on a couple partisans up in the north if available. Not to mention noble houses are supposed to be one of the main engines that creates plots in the city and world wide. If anything what they need is not so much sponsored people, but I would say some more open sponsored goals and plots that staff and noble players are willing to see through. Regardless it shouldn't hurt to have a number of nobles running around, hopefully trying to make cool stuff happen.

The militia are staples clan on either side of the map, who would the templars order around if not them. I can't see any of these closing, they are clans that have some pretty defined purposes especially in the south where crime would run rampant without any militia pcs following up on reports (yes i would stab you in the middle street and no crim-code wouldn't help you as much as you think).

Byn is more active in the south but technically they also hire in the north and take jobs there too. They could be closed down but I see that costing the game more players, a lot of people really enjoy playing in the byn. They do their thing and people love them.

The three active GMHs are kurac, salarr and kadius. These three clans provide much needed goods to players.   I already suggested merging kadius and salarr since its a similar experience, might as well have all the players under the same roof. There is no real need to discuss all that again though, everything that needs to be said has been said i think.  Its not really fair to just have a single merchant in the entire clan just to fill people's orders either. Kurac is also the gateway to the tablelands and desert tribes there, or at least should be. They have a distinct role to play at luirs and to be honest I feel you can't look at them without looking at all the clans in the pah as well. It is probably something that can be looked at though, in terms of better integrating them all with the rest of the world but its probably a bigger project then just closing them and probably another thread all by itself.   I suppose with all the GMH's you can make a store selling absolutely all they have to offer and then close one of them down but I don't know just closing any of the remaining clan down, even temporarily is a good solution.

For what its worth I think the player numbers will increase again in time as they always do with time.  The moment another hrpt and major code change happens is announced they skyrocket. However I still think we need to take this opportunity to look at the game and ask ourselves, "How can we make this game enjoyable for with the least amount of players" and do it in a way that when the population does go up, the fun will just increase in proportion. Again i feel just closing the clans down isn't the solution, but instead making sure they are promoting as much interaction between characters and other clans as possible instead of isolating players in remote areas or just keeping people from interacting with others. That they are not restricting players to the point they need a leader to be able to do anything other then the same old routine. That players have time to go out and do their own thing even within reason even if they are in a clan.  As it has been said the legion is a good example of this in terms of schedule and other changes, but that is already being looked at, so that's great. Other then that making people want to join clans by offering them benefits, perks and titles to achieve, and a lot of other good ideas mention in this thread is a good way to go. I want to see clans being more fun to play in, rather then making the independent experience more shit.

Though on a side note, anything that makes coins more scarce and thus more valuable for everyone is something I want to see in general. Its not just a snub against independents.  Again I already think its too hard to bride people as it. I've already said this but I'm okay with people affording drinks and the basic stuff from stores, but you want the fancy shit salarr, kurac or kadius sells you should probably be taking bribes, killing people for it or something.

[Harmless]

The idea of permanently closing clans scares me too. "temporary closing" is a slippery slope to permanently closing. Some degree of this is fine but unless something new and exciting comes along to replace it isn't worth it in my opinion. People miss these clans over time and eventually it just feels like "the game ain't what it used to be."

The same applies to closed down races. Is it really "fun" for there to be so much content that this game used to have that has been gone for so many years? I don't know that the same old content should be recycled or that new content should replace it, but content is content, and the game lacks it now in some areas that have had stagnation lately. New frontiers and changes to the landscape of PC faces could go a long way to stimulate intrigue.

If a new/old race was (re)opened up I bet you'd see a bump.

A good recent example is the levies. Huge boost and boon to Tuluk in my opinion. Why? It's a new clan, new content. Big positive feedback from that. Taking away X and Y and Z from the same city? Look at all the backlash it got on the GDB.

[Dresan]

I don't know if levies are a clan in the traditional sense. They were introduced in such a way that it adds content without taking players away from the other clans. You can join whatever clan you want and still be in the levies.

I don't think adding new races is a good idea....just right now. Since at best adding something a couple gith or mantis will just give people something to hunt/kill for a while. Its nice when it happens but its really more of an event/plot sort of thing.  I don't think you need an entire clan of gith for example. There is also the issue with elves. This was discussed iin another thread so I'm not going to  into detail about it. Kudos to those people trying to play an city elf right now but I personally still think they need to be changed to bring them in line with dwarves, half-elves and half-giants thus allowing them to join more clans. Again more people in the clans we currently have, the better.

[Evilone]

Umm... that's not actually true. Don't think you can join the levies and be in any clan you want (normal recruiting restrictions aside). I don't believe it was in the FAQ either, so I found out the hard way.

I don't think adding any new playable races will help, that would only further dilute things the way they are? Unless it's something that becomes common place acceptable, and doesn't need its own special living place etc. but that seems unlikely. Oh wait.. lets have a panda race! That will work Jks. City elves need loving I think.

I think the clans need more purpose to their role and what they can actually do... I'm not talking drama RP stuff, but actual work. E.g Tenneshi - There main focuse is water and building right? Water is just loaded for most clans and people never really need to deal with Tenneshi to actually get it, and building is only capable by the admins currently, so its rare, not impossible, but rare. Nobles now don't have qynar authority? so what to do besides just try and snoop the other nobles, and hurt his reputation and business? I know there's so much more to do, but that only works then too if the PC's are around to influence. If water in Tuluk had to be bought by the GMH and noble houses I think that could create some more interest for the noble house, plus stir many other possibilities. Obviously there would always have to be an NPC seller, just like Kurac has a NPC spice seller in Tuluk, but, if you dealt with a Tenneshi supplier directly, you could save a lot of the cost (also Vivaduans everywhere rejoice haha). Same sorta thing could apply to Allanak.

Winrothol - Well slaves don't really exist anymore, so... I've never heard of Winrothol actually selling slaves apart from a fighting Mul once to a Templar, and that never actually went ahead. Does that just leave the typically RP drama for them? The Cavaliers use to be nice, but they only just sorta did what the Legion should just be doing anyway? But they don't matter too much now anyway.

Dasari - To me they seem the most usable in the game to other PC's, knowing all about poisons, healing, plants and such, but over the last couple RL years it looks from the outside to be hard to get the clan running strong. Maybe they need something more solid that will draw PC's to them.. potions of 'strength', potions of 'quickness', potions of 'toughness'... something to compete with spice effects? There's a good rivalry that could spring up... but not be something that is just loaded by an NPC, created by actual plants that have to be foraged, and special only recipes to Dasari?

Kassigarh - I've not much experience with them and what direction they are taking. Loan sharks? It has potential... I don't see much RP to do with accounting, and taxing. Unless theres a new system set up to start it.

Bardic Circle - Seems to work okay, but I don't know if it's just because I haven't been in Tuluk as much lately, but there's not many getting around? Is it too hard to join? Just gets boring cause there is not enough work? That might come back to a low middle-upperclass population who don't hire them? Personally I think the step the admins were taking in increasing GMH family and having more than 1 noble family member in each clan is a great thing. I think at all times there should be no less than 3 GMH family PC's for each clan. Those people really are the drive in the game, and no less than 2 nobles for each family at all times.

Sun Legion - I think the Legion are only as good as the Templar PCs at the time. As for crime watch, during my period it was basically just reporting, and even during the very rare chance to actually witness or get involved with a crime, it's meant to be the Templars job. If your lucky, you get to be included then, in whatever the outcome is. But, that could have just been different leadership at the time as well. You are a soldier, so you expect combat and fighting, but what menaces do you really encounter? The biggest threat around Tuluk is the Kryl, but the general thing is don't mess with the Kryl... so it only just leaves the occasional random creature that will attack you. There's no Gith to go and slaughter to 'help keep the Gol and surrounding areas safe', or nests of spiders to clear out every now and then which seems common place down the south for clans like the ARM and the Byn. When the admins come up with a RPT it's great, but I'm talking more day to day excitement, fun, hardship, would be more enjoyable to be in the clan. There's lots of tribes in and around the Gol? Surely there's conflict to sort out between them, and stop them fighting each other, or when tribes break and revolt against Tuluk to handle? It shouldn't be an easy trip in the park, I wouldn't want easy slaughter for loots, but the sense of feeling your actually helping to defend the Gol, and not just hope for a rare occasion that you might catch a southern patrol, which the North would probably loose against anyway due to a shorter number of PC's...

I've been wondering if only having 2 GMH would be better, to combine people together so there's more interaction, but I don't think that's the way to go... as each GMH currently seems to have it's own really good niche.

Akai Sjir - I think they need to go and be replaced by a clan that takes ALL races, and is... outlawed and hunted by the city? They aren't professional artists, but scum, or really smart people looking for an easy buck who aren't afraid of "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal". It could certainly be that opposing force the Sun Legion need, but such a clan needs a sizeable space to be able to explore and hide... *Underground/sewers/warrens made bigger/whatever*.

Byn - From what I've seen they are doing really great atm, kudos to them. What I would love to see though is another mercenary clan for the north that isn't the Byn. The Byn doesn't work in the North much, that has seemed apparent over the past couple years, but maybe something else would work, and I'd like to see the conflict that could happen between the Byn and this other mercenary clan drinking together or fighting for prices etc. Travelling between Luirs and the North is much different to travelling from Luirs to the South... maybe that needs to change... this other clan that is outlawed and hunted by the city could be that solution, for those game enough? Sure it could be done now, but without the real support of admins with base, npc's, clan board to organise things, it'd be much harder, and more easily squashed. There'd be more need of mercs in the North... What are some other reasons mercs would need to be utilised more in the North? Why are they used more in the South? Gith contracts? Spider Contracts? That's fun stuff really.

I can only speak from personal experience with what I've seen, but I've been mostly a Tuluk player for the past couple years, but I've gotten around since returning after a long gap away from the game. This sorta thing will most likely be discussed at the new player/staff meeting, so I think we need to figure out what people like and don't like with the clans, so the imms can walk away with hopefully something helpful. The more people the better!

[Cutthroat]

A lot of the stuff in this thread with regards to clan pay, the attraction and "purpose" of clans will slowly become a non-issue as staff update clan documentation and sponsored leaders help introduce it to the population, presumably with an eye on discussions like these.

IMO, closing clans shouldn't even be a consideration. Closing clans historically doesn't help with consolidation, but seems to just limit player options, and players who don't like any of the options will prefer not joining a clan. On the contrary, opening more clans up and making them palatable to the players who prefer indies but really want to try a clan again should be the goal. Being mindful of things like clan schedules in the process. Since we can't magically create new players, only slowly attract them by voting and so on, the goal should be to make the clanned:indie ratio more in favor of the clanned by adjusting clans in a way that accommodates at least some of the indie-preferred players.

[Lizzie]

Some of the concerns Williamson brings up make sense, but are based on flawed logic. Cutthroat's most recent post is important to read. Limiting clan availability doesn't condense more people into clans. It creates more independents, because players hate being limited. It does exactly the opposite of what you are trying to do.

Some things addressing Williamson:

Flawed logic:
9 of 16 guilds are magick guilds, equaling 56% of all guilds only having one clan to join.

Nilaz and Sorcerers were never allowed to join clans (with a couple of "secret" exceptions that no longer exist).  So now it's only 7 of the 16 guilds that might otherwise be *eligible* to join clans, if you opened up that option again.

The roles require karma and therefore only veterans and players who have lots of trust with staff will play them: Not even close to being true. ANY player past their first character in Armageddon can special app a ruk or vivadu mage, and it doesn't take all that much effort to earn enough karma to not have to special app it at all. I notice when I'm playing a mage, that most mages don't last very long at all. Especially ruk and vivadu mages. No idea of the actual numbers, or if I'm only seeing a limited perspective here. But in my observation, the average vivaduan is either stored or killed within their first real-life month of chargen. Why? Because they are NOT proven leaders, they have NOT proven that they're able to handle a role that is designed to be primarily independent. They get bored and do stupid things, or they roleplay their characters into a store or flounder position. In my observation, the lifespan of a lower-karma mage is about the same as the lifespan of a Byn recruit with a bad Sergeant.

50 players average during prime time and 22 open clans = too many clans, too few positions each: Many of those clans are not intended to be filled by a lot of people. Most of the noble clans should only have a sponsored leader role, plus 1 or 2 aides. Also, those 50 players average during prime time, are not the same 50 that log in every day during prime time. On Saturdays and Sundays, 5 of those 50 might be people who only play on Saturdays and Sundays, replacing the 5 people who never play on weekends but are always there on Tuesdays (for example). So you have a lot more than 50 players, making up that "average." There are plenty of people to fill out those clans. The distribution tends to vary depending on the quality of the leader AND the quality of the leader's minions. If I have a new PC, and I'm looking for a clan, and I see a clan with a bunch of characters that I don't think I'd want to RP with on a regular basis, I won't want to join that clan. I'd rather play an independent, or join a clan where I'm the only minion in it. If you eliminate clans, you'll limit my options. I'll start to feel "stuck" with only two options: join a clan that has lots of people that I'd be required to interact with, some of whom I would want to avoid RPing with, or be independent and pick and choose who I want to RP with. I'll take the independent role. I'd rather even play an iso role than be stuck with characters that my character wouldn't get along with on a regular basis.

Too many cooks spoil the stew. A clan with multiple leaders equals a very few minions all taking conflicting orders most of the time. That makes for OOC resentment and frustration, not fun. A clan with one or two leaders makes for interesting dynamics, the potential for frustration but MORE potential for fun.

GMHs functioning as one group: it doesn't matter if they're one or two groups, if you're trying to "solve" the "problem" of prejudice and persecution of characters from one or another city. If your group is in the north, and has southern hunters, your group WILL experience prejudice and persecution. If they're in the south, and have northern hunters, you'll experience the same.  Those PCs have to be *from* somewhere, and the family member PCs can't be from anywhere other than one of the two cities (or Luir's if you're with Kurac). The moment those PCs step out of those cities, they become outsiders to their current environment, and will likely be treated as such, and have to work harder to prove their merit in the foreign locale. Yes, they're Salarri. But that particular agent is a Northern Salarri, coming to Allanak and expecting everyone to treat him how he's treated in Tuluk. It just ain't gonna happen. And it shouldn't happen. He's a foreigner. They'll go to him for ordering stuff, and make a cursory attempt at being civil and polite to him, but the moment that Salarri starts expecting the same prestige and respect that he gets from Lord Tenneshi in Tuluk, is the moment he loses his street cred in Nak. Vice versa with a Nakki-born, uninked Kadian showing up in Tuluk and expecting red-carpet treatment from the locals.

[Barzalene]

Economy -
A few people above (I apologize for not doing the scroll up and citing you by name) mentioned things like the disparity of pricing and inflation. I think they make a really good point. I think basic things should cost less. Luxurious things should cost more. (Yes this does nothing to address who holds the sid in game. But we're already talking about that.)

The problem with this is that the entire burden of fixing this falls on the staff. It's a huge undertaking and probably not an exciting one.

Food indigenous to an area, ale, low end wine, glow crystals, basic tools, low end clothing and weapons should be cheap. (Some clothes and weapons already conform.) High end weaponry, great armor, lace, silk, imported edible treats, candy, glass, great wine - those prices could be lifted and make them feel more like luxuries.

[X-D]

I will be editing this as I go to  address all the good posts.

First, As lizzie and others touched on. Closing clans does not increase clan play, it decreases it. I will use desert elves as an example. Used to be there was  8 tribes, 1-3 of them virtual but open for backround and play, and 3 coded...later the virtuals were not allowed for play and one coded tribe was closed for play but the coded tribes increased to 4. During the time that the 4 were open, there was actually a good number of delves, I estimate at any given time each tribe had at least 4 players...not a huge number per tribe of course...but fun because you had plenty of interaction. Today you have 2 open tribes and I doubt if they have an average number of 4 each. Now...you say yes, but with those tribes closed people get to play other clans. Well, that simply is not the case...as to the delf players, many have simply stopped playing delves, either because they do not like either of the open tribes or they simply hate being limited to 2 tribes. Several of those people have stopped playing altogether as a result...but that is more a side note.

Alright, now let us touch on clan numbers....I do not feel like going and counting the open clans so I will assume that 22 is a good number. Now, out of that 22,  at least 7 are tribes and you cannot recruit into a tribe so....we have 15...out of those 15, at least 7 are noble and other then oash, have a REAL hard cap on employ, being essentially sponsored PC and an Aide....I do not really count those myself since all in total that means they only suck up 14 players.. So, 7 open clans...Let me see here...maybe I am missing a noble house or something because I count only 5 remaining clans.....Byn, 3 gmh and the guild. Ah, I found the 2 missing clans, militia and legion..All of those are very specific in what type of PC plays them....So, having only those, ANYBODY making a PC outside that means they will be unclanned. And from player perspective, there are many PC concepts that simply do not fit into those clans. Or the players don't want to play them. Oh, and as to 6 job offers in a week...Dude, that is like getting none at all compared to say 2002. From 1998 -2004, every PC I and most anybody made got 6 job offers inside the first 10 minutes of play.

As I stated before, back when we had many open clans and a lower pbase...clan enrollement % was higher.

Now, Elite groups.

Someone mentioned that clans need to offer better gear and elite groups. However, I find that elite groups offer little more than a title. Once people are in these groups, they'll lose their allure and people will play elsewhere

I have to believe you were not playing back when the clan elite groups were open. Believe me, people did not lose interest and move on...In fact, many of the longest lived, most known dynamic PCs were in those groups...and they got a LOT more then simply title.

Now, the idea of merging GMH...this is the same as closing clans, and would result in lower numbers in clan. If you had 2 GMH then you would have the numbers of 2 GMH...that simple.  One reason being as Lizzie mentioned. Maybe I don't like the PCs in kurac right now...and kadius...Oh, I will join salarr....What, no salarr...I will stay indy.


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jaxa pah

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Status: Closed

[Fujikoma]

Jaxa Pah.

[Patuk]

Celf tribes are Arm's half-life 3.

[Nyr]

A note on elite units:

People seem to be saying they want elite units.  Like, something at the top end to aspire towards that is an extra thing or whatever in a clan, showing you've done your part.

So for the most part, all of the elite units had problems which led to their closure IC.  Some had more, some had less, but all had at least one.  I'm posting this to point those problems out to those that have rose-colored glasses.

If a group has an elite level or an elite tier of some sort, it must be balanced.

• you only get to this through IC work, no exceptions
• you can't just join up (due to availability or luck), you have to go through the same sort of training everyone else does (essentially, no bifurcated entry process, where if you go to one person you get into X group but if you go to Y person you get into Y lesser group)
• the elite group must be part of the rank structure of the clan in a solid, specific way
• the elite group can have perks, but cannot exist on its own, separate from the rest of the clan entirely

That's why we can't "open up the elite sections and let players just do it like they used to do it."  They were closed for a reason.  I know that keeps getting overlooked in favor of the chanting of "elite groups rock", but you can't ignore the bad.  The good news on this is that this may not always be the case.  Extensive clan revamps means that in some fashion...once documentation is addressed and solidified, and assuming it makes sense for the clan to have it from a staff perspective...those things will return.  They won't be like they were before, but elite status (in general) seems to make sense (it certainly passes staff muster in laying out documentation).

In fact, there is at least one area in which players can do something they couldn't do before as far as vertical advancement.  I hate to continually bring up Tuluk, but it's my most recent area of work, so that's where I am familiar with specific change.  

You can be a Masterbard PC now.

Until the bardic revamp, there was no chance of hitting higher than Seeker, occasionally Bard if your staff was especially nice (and they'd have to be, seeing as how there weren't docs for the clan) or you were especially long-lived and prolific.  To make that work, though, the overwhelming social power that a Bard (or Masterbard) could achieve could completely amplify and overshadow any particular PC's efforts.  In other words, if you had a Masterbard that was working directly for a noble, well, that'd mean that noble was pretty damn important, no?  We had to fix that and create a shift--as the social influence increased, so did the reliance and association with patrons decrease.

The same sort of thing can be applied to clans, in some cases, to provide vertical advancement at some cost.  The same sort of ideas that went into making that a possibility also power any thought towards clans and hierarchies and perks and the like.  Being in some sort of elite group or rank is a perk.



On permanently closing clans:  unless it is wiped out IC it is never permanently closed.  Not sure what this thing is all about.  The clans are open that staff want open.  If a clan is closed for play it is temporary, almost always.  I'm not sure of a time in which we've said a clan is permanently closed.  



On desert elf tribes:  most of them weren't fleshed out that much, and some had documentation that was more than a little crazy and un-Zalanthan.  Perhaps one day there will be other options here or a different approach taken, but given that desert elves require one karma and have been misplayed even at that, having a gate for them in some fashion is at least likely to continue in the future.  Whether that changes isn't something I'm aware of now.



On city elf tribes:  When we have one that works, you'll be the first to know.

[X-D]

If a group has an elite level or an elite tier of some sort, it must be balanced.

•you only get to this through IC work, no exceptions
•you can't just join up (due to availability or luck), you have to go through the same sort of training everyone else does (essentially, no bifurcated entry process, where if you go to one person you get into X group but if you go to Y person you get into Y lesser group)
•the elite group must be part of the rank structure of the clan in a solid, specific way
•the elite group can have perks, but cannot exist on its own, separate from the rest of the clan entirely

That's why we can't "open up the elite sections and let players just do it like they used to do it."  They were closed for a reason.

Actually Nyr...I doubt anybody would argue against your points.

Firstly, pretty much everything has problems...sadly, the tendency has been to close rather then fix.

Now, as to your points...my bet is that anybody posting on this thread would be in full agreement with you...hell, I personally think getting into an elite group in a clan should be even harder then it was when they were open. I think any elite group should have a solid and low cap...which I have stated before. Part of this is simply the laws of supply and demand, but part is to stop said groups from overtaking/overpowering said clans, which has happened in the past (something that was broken).


So anyway yes, I personally agree with all your above points to having them back in game.

On desert elf tribes:  most of them weren't fleshed out that much, and some had documentation that was more than a little crazy and un-Zalanthan.  Perhaps one day there will be other options here or a different approach taken, but given that desert elves require one karma and have been misplayed even at that, having a gate for them in some fashion is at least likely to continue in the future.  Whether that changes isn't something I'm aware of now.

Oddly, I am in agreement there too....though I have to go back to what I posted above in that it has been the tendency to close rather then fix. And everything is, at one point or another "misplayed" I consider that "reason" rather a copout...as if it was a valid reason then the only thing that would be playable would be indy human warriors...and even they could be misplayed.

[Molten Heart]

Once upon a time House Tor asked a beautiful damsel "Will you lifeswear to me?" and the beautiful damsel said "NO!" and the beautiful damsel lived happily ever after and rode silt skimmers and mud sexed handsome Benjari tribals and hunted and raced erdlu sleds and went to naked gypsy parties and seduced men half her age and smoked Melem Tuek, Thodeliv and Zharal and drank Sejah from the keg and never waited for a missing leader and went to parties in both city states and kept an apartment full of souvenirs and all her family and friends thought she was fucking cool as drov and she had tons of coins. The End.

I think there is a certain measure of truth to Bushranger's humorous story. Clans need to offer better attractions to seduce the players away from the wonders independence. That's just some of my thoughts on the matter...

Thanks for including this post in this thread.  Well said.

[Nyr]

Firstly, pretty much everything has problems...sadly, the tendency has been to close rather then fix.

Barring one or two cases, the problem was endemic.  It could have been fixed close to implementation by adjustments, but after years go by and the problems remain manifest, it is left to staff to determine whether it is in the cards to fix it now (meaning a full clan revamp/reconstruction of documentation) or selectively nix the part that is creating the heartburn until it the former fix can be applied.  As you say, the tendency is towards closing rather than fixing, but that's just a nature of the amount of time we have.  We do set aside time for projects and the like, but with limited resources...when a problem presents itself, the first response tends to be towards mitigating the problem temporarily and continuing with current efforts until that problem can be addressed with more time and effort.

"Temporarily" is relative, of course.

[X-D]

(meaning a full clan revamp/reconstruction of documentation)

Something that the player community is always willing to help on....an untapped resource most the time if you ask me.


Of course, hearing that many of these things might still be under continued staff review actually makes me happy.