The Clans and Economy Thread

[Lizzie]

I already specified the #1 IC reason why the GMHs would consider wanting a merger: world domination. Remember, Nenyuk is also a GMH. You get Nenyuk, Kurac, Kadius, and Salarr to join forces, and they can dictate the laws in any place they do business. They could tell the Nobility to sit there and beg for their silken underwear, they could tell Lord Tor exactly where he can put his Deadly Death-Axe of Doom. They could tell the Templarate that no, they won't be paying any taxes this year and in fact they're raising the prices of all goods and services, and rent, to the Templarate, the Legion, and the Militia and how about we just have Lord Vader Highlord Tek come out of his hidey-hole and entertain us with his little cantrips while we have ourselves a nice hot mug of I Don't Give A Shit. Oh and by the way, we've depleted your bank account, Lord Templar Trade Minister, you'll have to borrow from us if you want a mug of your own. We'll give you good rates. Just stand out on Hrathor's Way and ask for Quick.

Which independant is going to make all that armor, all those weapons, all those clothes, import and process all that spice, and so on, for two entire cities? Johnboy Klestion? Good luck with that.

Once again, this notion isn't new, and it HAS been attempted in the past. OOC logistics is the only reason most people haven't ever heard about it. Players store characters, characters get assassinated, other players just quit playing for whatever reason. And so plotlines die. This particular plotline has been in the game, in various incarnations, led by different PCs, for over a decade.

[FantasyWriter]

Tek/Muk would just send in the Blacks/High Templars to execute/disappear the top twenty or so heads of each House.  Their replacements would put shit back like the -god- -kings- want it.

[HavokBlue]

I think the new clan pay standards if/when they happen as explained by Nyr should signal a decrease in the overall political power of Merchant Houses. In game, it felt like GMHers often had more cash to throw around than the nobility, and it appears staff don't want that to be the case?

[Rahnevyn]

I think the new clan pay standards if/when they happen as explained by Nyr should signal a decrease in the overall political power of Merchant Houses. In game, it felt like GMHers often had more cash to throw around than the nobility, and it appears staff don't want that to be the case?

Some of the changes have already happened, as the Weekly Update shows. Still, I wouldn't take the size of in-game bank accounts, how much cash can be thrown around by a PC, or how much employees get paid as a full measure of political power of a House either way. Whether Salarr or Kadius can outmuscle Oash or Borsail or Winrothol in the arena of politics is definitely a question best answered in game.

[KankWhisperer]

Have the people who are claiming there is mostly minimal IC justification forgotten the redesign of Tuluk? I'm not for any merger or pool but that argument seems baffling considering other things that have been done for OOC reasons, recently even.

And we PCs are just too low level to accomplish any merger. The glass ceiling effectively makes it impossible for PCs to do. The people in charge like it the way it is. Say you are in House A and you want to wipe out House B, your superiors will say "Just get along.".

[HavokBlue]

I think the new clan pay standards if/when they happen as explained by Nyr should signal a decrease in the overall political power of Merchant Houses. In game, it felt like GMHers often had more cash to throw around than the nobility, and it appears staff don't want that to be the case?

Some of the changes have already happened, as the Weekly Update shows. Still, I wouldn't take the size of in-game bank accounts, how much cash can be thrown around by a PC, or how much employees get paid as a full measure of political power of a House either way. Whether Salarr or Kadius can outmuscle Oash or Borsail or Winrothol in the arena of politics is definitely a question best answered in game.

I didn't mean to imply it WAS that way, just that it could feel that way on the ground, since PC interactions between GMHs and noble houses are largely limited to the lower echelons where money has more clout.

[Ouroboros]

You get Nenyuk, Kurac, Kadius, and Salarr to join forces, and they can dictate the laws in any place they do business.

I promised not to say anything else in this discussion, but I just wanted to thank you for this line. Funniest thing I've read in a while. It made me think of Borsail sending a postcard to Kurac with their old estate as the return address and a big ol' "Wish you were here!" on the front.

Carry on!

[X-D]

Yes, let us not forget. The merchant houses are allowed to operate in either city state by the grace of the actual rulers of said city states.

Some have been tossed from said areas in the past with ease. Luirs in fact has been controlled by Nak and only won its freedom with the help of Tuluk. Hell, Some upstart Sorc took control of it and again, only lost it because another citystate decided they would rather have Kurac there then a bunch of mantis.

If you merged all the GMH together they would wield no greater power then they do already in either citystate...the difference in power between all of them together and even a single black robe is akin to that of a tregil verses a silt giant.

[Riev]

I really tried to read all 5 pages, but by the time I hit page 4, I realized the entire thread was boiling down to:


I have an interesting idea. Lets see if it works.

I hate your idea, because I have an OOC prejudice against <clan> or <job type>.

Alright, well, this IS a discussion, right?

No. Indies suck. Join a clan for plots, thats why they are there.

Rinse, and repeat.




I remember when this was a discussion board. Originally, the discussion was clan pay and benefits (which has been discussed, and has been gone over by staff numerous times, with the typical slow, creeping-death changes that come about after months of discussion and plotting) but then it turned into "Well what if, the benefit of clans was, indeed, for the plots. Having 3 different clans, who all operate worldwide, competing for the same 12 players that play hunters is starting to be less "exciting" and more work with little returns. What if there was <implementation> instead?"

And everyone turns to "Indies suck too bad". "We don't need this." "Seems like you want to be a snowflake." "Stop trying to change the gameworld, you are just a player." Or perhaps my favorite:

merger:  aims to fix a problem that (again) largely doesn't exist...with a solution that flies in the face of the IC world, because "merger"

While I agree the problem doesn't exist as described, tossing out the idea of a merger, "because merger" is probably THE most childish thing I've seen. This isn't argument topics, this is just plain "Your idea is dumb, and also its dumb because you used an anachronistic word. So. Ended."

On the ACTUAL topic, if clans are for plots, and the only way to get "access" to "the plots" is to be part of a clan, then shouldn't there be more plots in the clans? This is mostly a leadership issue, but I mean, people are saying the draw of clans is not pay, benefits, armor, or expenditures, but in fact the ability to participate in plots. I havn't seen a good plot since a particular GMH Merchant really pissed off <nasty organization> and so <nasty organization> literally went around killing every employee that Merchant hired. I was one of the people killed, I still hate it, and I STILL think it was a great plot point.

[FantasyWriter]

Clan=Plots to me has always sounded just plain wrong. Not wrong (it shouldn't be like that) but wrong (this is totally untrue).

I've played in clan where there would be RL months between doing anything that wasn't on the weekly schedule, and I've played independence who were involved in world-changing events.  If one happens to have short playtimes, you could play a real-life year in the Byn without ever getting to leave the compound because you can't make the peak RPTs and you're always seem to miss the days off (not to mention missing out on promotions and recognition of your efforts and time given to the game), so you are never exposed to anyone outside those who are both in your clan and share your play time with and you only get to experience .05% of the game world.  That is an extreme example, but it is far from unheard of.  Ask anyone who has ever played a Kuraci in Luir's when there weren't a lot of tribals and traders passing through.  Playing in a clan can be even more isolating than playing a rogue sorcerer hidden deep beyond the reached of the Known at times.  Plots happen where people and conflict come together. Sometimes this will involved affiliated PC, sometimes indies, sometimes both, but Clans=Plots is far, far from an absolute.

[Cutthroat]

I don't think clans are the only way to get access to plots, but it certainly makes access to certain kinds of plots and deeper involvement within them easier. Membership isn't even necessary, just affiliation (contract work, patronage, or knowing a guy who knows a guy who's in the House...) But timing is another factor. Sometimes there isn't a lot going on.

Regardless, the economy of the game should focus on reflecting that the vast majority of the wealth is controlled by GMHs, noble houses, and the templarate. I don't agree with the idea of a merger not only because GMHs wouldn't let it happen themselves, but even the government of the cities would dislike it. Four merchant houses fighting each other for profit is better for the government than a single unified front of merchants. The economy of the game should be more player-driven, and the main money sources should be clanned people with fat purses that use the money they get from their inflated salary to buy goods and services from each other and from independents. More items (ideally, and I realize it would be an immense undertaking, every not-raw item in the game) should be craftable. Don't take away automated jobs or make it harder to sell goods to NPC shops, just make those things the less-profitable alternative to dealing with players.

Being an indie should be a tough experience, not a boring one, and being clanned should give you an automatic incentive to interact with people. Money and desire are natural plot-starters.

[Ouroboros]

I remember when this was a discussion board.

Good lord, you've a long memory.

While I agree the problem doesn't exist as described, tossing out the idea of a merger, "because merger" is probably THE most childish thing I've seen. This isn't argument topics, this is just plain "Your idea is dumb, and also its dumb because you used an anachronistic word. So. Ended."

In Nyr's defense (did I just write that?) I'll agree that the wording could have been more eloquently stated but the message was fairly accurate. And it's not as much about the word itself being anachronistic, as it is about the meaning of the word being anachronistic and out of place in the setting. That's what I was trying to explain along various points in the discussion, in hopes that someone would get it. Yes, apparently players have been trying to see a merger happen for a decade now. And apparently after a decade of it not happening, it still hasn't clicked why that is, with the blame resting on poor play-time scheduling and folks dying. It doesn't seem to have crossed the minds of the participants of these various attempts that they might be trying to bring in a concept that's entirely foreign to the setting.

One can play armchair economist all day long, and who doesn't love to, but at the end of the day we have to realize many of the modern business models go out of the window when it comes to Zalanthas. Why? Because disputes are settled by muthafuckaz with bone swordz, not in court or a board room. Because terms like "survival of the fittest" and "law of the jungle" aren't just motivational posters in a Wall St. office next to a pristine copy of the Art of War, but very, very literal and when someone says "work is killing me" they probably mean it. Because you can think you've all the money and power in the world, until you're staring at the maw of a Dragon and he's wondering what in Drov made you think you mattered more than kank-shit. There's no business model in our society that accounts for magick and psionics.

As for your sentiments on clans needing more plots, and that being largely a leadership issue... Sure. You know what's going to follow that though, right? Be the Change ™.

[Delusion]

My independent PCs have gone and seen and done as much cool and interesting stuff as my clanned PCs, if not more. They have also been far wealthier than my clanned PCs. I did have a clanned PC with around 30k in the bank and a lot of personal belongings, but that was the exception rather than the norm. 30,000 isn't even that much compared to the earning potential of an independent, besides.

That's fine by me - I can just avoid clans unless they really seem to fit what I want to do with a PC. It seems backwards, even so.

[Nyr]

While I agree the problem doesn't exist as described, tossing out the idea of a merger, "because merger" is probably THE most childish thing I've seen. This isn't argument topics, this is just plain "Your idea is dumb, and also its dumb because you used an anachronistic word. So. Ended."

Well, firstly, I don't really mind if people want to spend their time discussing something to fix a problem they feel exists (I haven't jumped into a few threads for that reason).  Discussion is good for identifying a problem, or at the very least, those that feel there is a problem.  So far I have seen some stuff discussed here that hints at a singular problem (hunters/crafters), but it is a minor issue, and quite cyclical as well.

Secondly, I do think it's worth discussing the dichotomy between independent roles and clanned roles, how to make them different, how to make clanned roles rewarding, how to make the independent role something to play while at the same time making it the less desirable option from an OOC and IC standpoint.  That's because that sort of thing needs to be brought up and reinforced:  there will be a divide between them.  There are multiple meta-clan groups and only one independent clan staff group; if staff wanted more focus to be on independent roles then there would be more than one team handling unclanned and independent characters.  We on staff don't hate players that play indie roles and we don't hate independents--whenever that is stated (jokingly, tongue-in-cheek, or bluntly), it is in response to any notion that independent roles should have equality beside those that are affiliated (in any fashion).  There will be drawbacks, whether coded or IC.  Play what you wish to play with the understanding that independent, unclanned, unaffiliated roles are not supported to be able to do as much as the ones in clans; the things you will be doing may be different things, maybe they will be similar but on a smaller scale, etc., and you will have to deal with the differences. Take that as a challenge or as a statement of fact, whichever you wish!  I don't know who started saying clans are for plots; people can get in plots everywhere.  The type of plot may be different.  It may be the same, it depends on what you do.

Thirdly, I don't think merger is an anachronistic word or anything.  Sure, it's not exactly normal for Zalanthas, but I wasn't scoffing at the word itself.  I was scoffing at the idea being touted as a grand solution for a relatively minor problem.  I'm trying to come up with an analogy for it.

Here's the problem:  we have a house.  We have a small hole in the roof.  At times, when it rains, the carpet beneath the hole gets wet.  Now, it doesn't downpour in torrential amounts, so it will dry on its own, but it is annoying and it could be fixed, no?

Solution 1:  patch the hole.
Solution 2:  let's encase the building inside a much larger building, or at least beneath a much larger roof.  We'll rip up the carpet and put down tile so in case it ever rains again and the big roof fails, we'll be fine and won't have to wait for the carpet to dry.

Both solutions get the problem (as perceived) addressed, but one is needlessly complex.

It seems like people are suggesting a merger because it's something new, it's big, and it would (technically) "fix" the problem.  That's why I said "because 'merger'".  I could've just as easily said "because 'shiny things'".  Several times here I've chimed in to say that any issue raised here about a lack of hunters/crafters in one of two clans isn't a very big deal.  I've also followed that up with much simpler suggestions that are much more grounded in previously applied solutions (make the lower ranks more fluid, or consider partisan-style arrangements for such unskilled needs if they exist).  Neither of these requires a major IC change and staff building work.  But somehow, every time, we get back to "let's do a merger" or "let's have a hunters pool!" and there's not really a good explanation for why the simple suggestion isn't applicable.

[X-D]

Well said Nyr.


And I don't really understand the hunters pool idea anyway...I thought we had one...called indy hunters?

The only thing I can figure is that it is an idea for lazy players that don't want to actually go out and meet anybody.

[racurtne]

Everybody seems to be becoming a little entitled after the Levies and Tuluki reshuffling happened. I see a lot of "But the LEVIES!" and "But Tuluk!" as rallying cries for further changes that dwon't have near the same level of impact.

Give an inch and they'll take a yard. (The American in me is showing in my use of the Imperial system.)

Edit:Not to say that it's not worth discussing, but I'm not going to hold my breath for more sweeping changes anytime in the near future.

[Fujikoma]

Let non-humans, non-giants train with the AoD as part of a volunteer squad, sometimes utilized for volunteer black-ops suicide missions, that's what I want to see.

[Molten Heart]

If we're addressing a problem.  The problem I have with clans is clan leaders and staff generally could be more proactive in creating interesting roleplay.  Basically, if a clan isn't actively involved in doing something, I'd rather be playing on my own.  The underlings of a clan have basically made a commitment to play in a clan, if they aren't supported by the virtual resources and people that they wouldn't otherwise get by playing an indy, they might as well be playing an indy because indy's aren't subject to the same limitations.  Basically the limitations of a clan are always there by default, but the perks are not always there.  Free food/water, a safe place to store things and a couple hundred coins ever once in a while are negligible in a game where the goal is to have fun.  Playing an indy has more opportunity for fun roleplay than playing in a clans are too dependent on clan leadership and staff which isn't consistent.

[Rahnevyn]

What clan limitations do you find the hardest to cope with?

[BadSkeelz]

All this thread has taught me is that I need to PK more indies.

[X-D]

Ooh, pick mine.

[Nyr]

If we're addressing a problem.  The problem I have with clans is clan leaders and staff generally could be more proactive in creating interesting roleplay.  Basically, if a clan isn't actively involved in doing something, I'd rather be playing on my own.  The underlings of a clan have basically made a commitment to play in a clan, if they aren't supported by the virtual resources and people that they wouldn't otherwise get by playing an indy, they might as well be playing an indy because indy's aren't subject to the same limitations.  Basically the limitations of a clan are always there by default, but the perks are not always there.  Free food/water, a safe place to store things and a couple hundred coins ever once in a while are negligible in a game where the goal is to have fun.  Playing an indy has more opportunity for fun roleplay than playing in a clans are too dependent on clan leadership and staff which isn't consistent.

How actively should a clan be involved in doing something in order to garner your attention?  (What does that mean exactly, for that matter--what is "something"?)  What support should the underlings of a clan get, in your estimation?  Do they often not get that support?  What limitations are imposed upon clanned PCs that are untenable?

And related, perhaps a bit of a rebuttal, but why is the onus on staff as well as sponsored leaders within clans to make things interesting enough for you to play in them?  You agree that you should also contribute as well, yes?

[Ouroboros]

And related, perhaps a bit of a rebuttal, but why is the onus on staff as well as sponsored leaders within clans to make things interesting enough for you to play in them?  You agree that you should also contribute as well, yes?

Thank you for saying politely what I've typed and erased several times now without posting, in a far less polite fashion.

Times like these I'm reminded why I rarely post.

[KankWhisperer]

Having played a clan leader, the roles of some are so suffocated by 'docs' that it really makes it hard to start anything interesting. Really it feels like you suceed in game and in fun when you are ignoring or going against them. At least in my experience clan uppers always want to play it safe and keep you in your box. It is tedious to always trying to find something to do that also aligns with the clan docs.

One of my favorite times as a clan leader was chasing my renegade Runners around Allanak with my assassin Trooper stabbing them. Me being visible (and chasing after the Runners) pretending to wonder to the Arm what was going on.  Obviously bad but fun.

[Molten Heart]

What clan limitations do you find the hardest to cope with?

It isn't the clan limitations that are hard to cope with, it's hard to cope with a lack of benefits from a clan that fails to deliver on my expectations of roleplay interactions that would normally make up for the limitations so I'm then just left with those limitations that are always present.