The Clans and Economy Thread

[Molten Heart]

Times like these I'm reminded why I rarely post.

Thank you for your contributions to our community, rare as they are.

[Rahnevyn]

If you could elaborate both on what limitations are always present and what benefits you wish were more available, it'd be helpful. I'm not asking to try and prove you wrong; actually it's just to gain perspective. Maybe there are things we can look at?

[Delirium]

Personally, I feel that unless it's a strictly military or mercenary clan, "clan schedules" should go the way of the dodo. On top of that, I remember that even in the military clans, it was nice to try and work the schedules so that there was a sensible balance of coded vs non-coded duties vs free time, etc. Realism should not be getting in the way of pushing plots and interacting with the playerbase.

This is a bit tangential, but the schedule issue (both military and non) is one reason I miss the partisan's arena; even if it wasn't being used for its original purpose, all those clans and indies coming together to interact for sparring instead of being locked away in a clan hall? It was a hotbed for fostering interaction and conflict, both long and short-term, countless contacts, friends, and rivalries were born out of that place, and in general, it combined coded skill progress with the ability to interact with the playerbase at large, instead of being stuck in a clan hall alone or with the same rotation of 2-6 PCs, or out in the wilds hunting down gortok #24389 and skeet #978.

On the flip side of the same token, I don't feel like we should be forcing people to interact. I want to see more opportunities for people to come together without forcing them down that road. Sometimes, players just wanna rock the indie or ISO side of the game, and there's really nothing wrong with that.

So, all that said, I can see where the desire for "clan pools" came out of, but I don't agree with that as a solution. I think a better solution would be to offer the equivalent of what the partisan's arena became - for both combat characters and crafters. Similar to the firepits in taverns, it's a place where PCs can gather if they choose to do their coded "chores", and interact at the same time.

Basically, give people a reason to congregate, and they'll do so; the structure of the way things are now tends to segregate the playerbase. However, I want to reiterate that care should be taken to avoid forcing that interaction because in the end, this is a game we all play to have fun. The idea is to offer options, not limit them.

(Sorry if this was a bit rambling, I had to type it up pretty quick during a break at work.)

[Nyr]

Personally, I feel that unless it's a strictly military or mercenary clan, "clan schedules" should go the way of the dodo. On top of that, I remember that even in the military clans, it was nice to try and work the schedules so that there was a sensible balance of coded vs non-coded duties vs free time, etc. Realism should not be getting in the way of pushing plots and interacting with the playerbase.

Should already be the case, across the board, IIRC.  I am pretty sure that the only clans with formalized schedules are military-esque (so...four clans?).

As for coded vs. non-coded duties and free time, that was addressed in the Legions at least.  Here's what we laid out for that experiment:

There's a schedule; if no one is around, patrols or tavern watch or other public-facing duties supersede schedule.  If someone is around, a superior can supersede the schedule (this also means superiors can supersede your time off; take note).  For every 1.5 hours of play there are 30 minutes of time intended as time off or rest time or standby or get drunk time or mudsex time or whatever you want to call it.  If a PC wants extra time off they can take it from a certain rank up.  If they abuse that, then that gets addressed at that time.

On paper I think that works out okay.  I do not personally believe that any other clans should have schedules, but that's easy to say when I'm pretty sure they don't.

[Delirium]

Well... good! That was my only real complaint with the way clans are set up.

Other than the "sequestering characters away in clan halls" thing, but I've already expounded on that one.

[Molten Heart]

If you could elaborate both on what limitations are always present and what benefits you wish were more available, it'd be helpful. I'm not asking to try and prove you wrong; actually it's just to gain perspective. Maybe there are things we can look at?

When one joins a clan, one is committing oneself to a side, accepting the limitations and advantages that come with being in that clan.

Most of the limitations are always present like: Kadians don't sell/craft armor/weapons and Salarris don't sell/craft clothing/jewelry.  Soldiers of His Arm don't hunt or sift spice.  Soldiers of His Legion aren't lumber jacks.  Lady Borsail's aid is expected to uphold the standards of Borsail and be her lacky/spy etc, others expect this of her aid too and treat her accordingly.  Each role is basically a job with certain expectations.

The thing that clans offer me and my characters is the opportunity to be a part of something bigger.  The structure and organization is all there but it needs someone there to be a driving force, either a staff member or a clan leader(s) that can give their clan direction, something for people to join.  Without the ability to be a part of, or create a direction for the clan I'm in, I'm better off on my own enjoying the freedom of being unaffiliated without the limitations that come with being a part of a clan.  Joining a clan is a commitment that comes at the cost of certain opportunities one expects without the guarantee of other opportunities one hopes for.

[BadSkeelz]

So more suicide missions, got it.

[Law&Order]

 Clans are only as strong as the active clan leaders are.  Clan leaders, by and large, generate their own revenue which trickles down, as necessary, to the underlings.  If you've got an active clan leader who appreciates what your character is bringing to the table, then there will always be enough money for booze and wenches, no matter if you only get 150 coins every couple RL weeks.  However, if you almost never see your active clan leader and it seems like they aren't really doing their job, you know, guiding the clan, then this is when things get stagnant and risks get taken.  Which in turn hurts the clan at large, and the active playerbase, because it limits options.  So my point is, it all comes down to clan leadership, not the coded benefits that come from being in the clan.  Get good leaders who are active, you'll find a clan with good numbers, good activity and good economics.

[HavokBlue]

My most recent experience with the clans in question was pretty positive. I felt like staff were receptive to plots and goals I wanted to pursue. The biggest limitations I ran into were personnel issues, and they resolved themselves with a bit of time and effort.

[bcw81]

I would like to say that being a clan leader is extremely tiring at times. Over the past two years or so I've played a fair number of leaders, and while yes, it is super fun when one of your plots takes off, it's hard to actually -get- a plot to take off. You can't just tell your minions 'Hey! Let's go kill all the raiders and get paid for it.' There needs to be raiders to kill. You also can't say 'Hey, lets go attack the other city's fortifications' because, firstly, you need staff support - which takes about a week or two to set up and then they normally tell you you need to do a few things first or risk going in blind against overwhelming odds - and secondly you need an active minion pool, which seems to die down the moment something big isn't happening. Most of the -big- plots require help from other leaders outside the one clan. The Byn needs people to hire them before they can be ambushed by a huge army of gith. The Akai needs someone to hire them to make awesome stonework crap. The merchant houses need someone to have a need for their wares before they can order the awesome crap. The Templarate needs to gather enough support among the nobility (Or at least the staff acting as other, higher ranking, templars) before they can move on with their plan.

You can do small things, though, which can be fun - but they tend to not encompass your entire clan. Ordering your trusted troopers to pass word around, sleeping with the hot runner whom you expect to cause unrest in the rest of the unit as they try not to piss her off in hopes they wont piss you off, form a division in your ranks like the Cavaliers or something for special people,ect. But none of that really gets the same fun as the big plots it seems people are looking for.

Aside from that, there are the other activities that just happen on random chance. You can't promise they're going to happen until they happen. Half of the time, you don't even know they're happening until they're already midway to completion, which means that you can't really involve your clan unless they are actually on at time time - which again brings me to the point that they tend to drop off activity unless something big is already happening.

In summery: If you want to have your clan leaders be active, help by being active yourself. There's nothing that says you can't try to start plots yourself. Try bringing ideas to your leaders, I know for a fact when I'm playing a leader I'd love to do things I know others would enjoy rather than shooting wildly in the dark with potential ideas.

[Dresan]

Personally, I feel that unless it's a strictly military or mercenary clan, "clan schedules" should go the way of the dodo. On top of that, I remember that even in the military clans, it was nice to try and work the schedules so that there was a sensible balance of coded vs non-coded duties vs free time, etc. Realism should not be getting in the way of pushing plots and interacting with the playerbase.

Should already be the case, across the board, IIRC.  I am pretty sure that the only clans with formalized schedules are military-esque (so...four clans?).

As for coded vs. non-coded duties and free time, that was addressed in the Legions at least.  Here's what we laid out for that experiment:

There's a schedule; if no one is around, patrols or tavern watch or other public-facing duties supersede schedule.  If someone is around, a superior can supersede the schedule (this also means superiors can supersede your time off; take note).  For every 1.5 hours of play there are 30 minutes of time intended as time off or rest time or standby or get drunk time or mudsex time or whatever you want to call it.  If a PC wants extra time off they can take it from a certain rank up.  If they abuse that, then that gets addressed at that time.

On paper I think that works out okay.  I do not personally believe that any other clans should have schedules, but that's easy to say when I'm pretty sure they don't.

Not sure if this is still allowed but if no one is around they can get time their day off a virtual sergeant which is really huge imo.

I keep hearing about clan leadership and how whether the clans are good or not is their fault. This is bullshit. Everyone here is playing for their own enjoyment primarily and its no one responsibility to make the game fun for anyone else. Please do not put the responsibility on making the game enjoyable on the few sponsored people in the clan. Every player has ideas, every player can create plots and we all know at this point none of us, not even staff it seems can suddenly says I have this great epic plot idea and sudden it happens.  The people who have done so in the past, did so in the -past-, great shit can happen but takes time, work and dedication from from a number of staff and players.  That is unfortunately in some cases but that is the nature of the beast.It is also because it isn't solely up to the clan and leader to create fun for you, that the damn clan shouldn't be completely restricting you from creating your own fun. I have felt in the past military clans are way too restricting and dependent on a leader to break out of a very very boring routine. I think the legion struck a good balance of realistic training/routine and giving players the freedom to go do their own thing once in a while. Those changes would probably work even better in other clans.

There seems to be a war with independents OOCly that has been extending ICly. You want these people to be rarer, then you simply got to make joining a clan a more enjoyable experience. The greatest benefit to joining a clan is suppose to be plots and increased interaction, if a clan if failing to improve both these things then there is a problem. Pay and every other IC perk is just icing on the cake. You log in and are bored out of your mind because you aren't allowed to do shit and it wouldn't make sense ICly for you to do so anyways, because you are supposed to be lucky to be where you are.  Heck instead of being able to go to a location where you can interact with people (the selling point of this game), umm, no schedule says solo RP for the foreseeable, you are a twink if you skip it not to mention it might be unrealistic for your character concept to do so but then again boredom.  Again the changes with the legion helped a lot in that regard I think.

I've kinda said my peace with kadius and salarr, at their core they offer players the same time of experience. Do we really need two of them right now especially consider how enjoyable these two clans are when completely full? I would say no. Then again I got to ask myself if both clans, heck every clan was filled to the brim right now would I even be bringing this up?I keep thinking yes, because I believe in my heart it would make epic plots easier by merging these two clan with similar goals, instead of just splitting the plots between them. However, it is probably misguided of me to think this might be true since at the end these two clans simply offer the most freedom to go do your own shit as a perk more then anything else. That is really good in its own way.  The thoughts and comments were probably also inspired by what occurred with the tuluki noble houses too, somewhat making the experience in each more unique.  That said I rather not see anything change with the core experience kadius and salarr both offer.

There is also the idea that these things go in cycles, as if its okay that a player or two are stuck in a place or clan where they are bored out of their mind and have very little in the way of plots and/or interaction because someday it might change and things will liven up again. I really think that this type of thinking hurts the game in the long run because people get bored and probably find other more enjoyable ways to spend their time. That doesn't always mean they decide to potentially gamble their time again, store and create another character in a new location.  I don't know if there is anything that can be done about it at the end though and it isn't any person's fault when it happens but the game should try to find ways to minimize horrible experiences like that.

Editted: Due to gammar, and to add the last paragraph.

[Fujikoma]

I disagree, leaders can really make or break an experience. Yes, it's up to all of us to shoulder some weight, but the burden of leadership is greater than that of the lower ranks. I know, on other games, when I've found myself in a leadership position, I've taken it as my personal responsibility to insure the enjoyment of my employees, and I've taken it as a serious failure when I couldn't deliver. It seemed to work well, my groups would swell to pretty decent size. Eventually I would lose interest and turn it over to some other charismatic personality, but it just wouldn't be the same, I'd give it a RL month or two or three to see what happens, and sadly, it never becomes self sustaining, despite the time and effort I put into selecting and promoting people with ideas in line with mine.The new leadership becomes kind of bored or something and stops logging in so much and slowly things sink into anarchy, the group dynamic dissappears and trickles down, and the next thing you know, your organization has been robbed blind and has no members.

[Law&Order]

I keep hearing about clan leadership and how whether the clans are good or not is their fault. This is bullshit. Everyone here is playing for their own enjoyment primarily and its no one responsibility to make the game fun for anyone else. Please do not put the responsibility on making the game enjoyable on the few sponsored people in the clan. Every player has ideas, every player can create plots and we all know at this point none of us, not even staff it seems can suddenly says I have this great epic plot idea and sudden it happens.  The people who have done so in the past, did so in the -past-, great shit can happen but takes time, work and dedication from from a number of staff and players.  That is unfortunately in some cases but that is the nature of the beast.It is also because it isn't solely up to the clan and leader to create fun for you, that the damn clan shouldn't be completely restricting you from creating your own fun. I have felt in the past military clans are way too restricting and dependent on a leader to break out of a very very boring routine. I think the legion struck a good balance of realistic training/routine and giving players the freedom to go do their own thing once in a while. Those changes would probably work even better in other clans.

Sponsored leaders are in such a position because there is an expectation of the mentoring, guiding, moving and mobilizing the playerbase they are directly responsible for.  Yes, you're playing for you...but you're also playing for the role/concept/design set out before you.  Don't apply for the special role call if you don't want all of the drawbacks that come with the perks, there will always be someone else interested and in line.

[James de Monet]

I just don't know if I'm capable of writing this response in a way that will retain its poignancy, yet magically not be horribly offensive to anyone.

[RogueGunslinger]

Let 'er rip.

[Is Friday]

I feel like this "concern" that the clan is boring is really just indicative of how the game as a whole works. I've played plenty of indies that had incredibly boring spurts, too. Sometimes things come together and you have that "golden age" in a clan. Sometimes it's short lived and other times it lasts a while. It's a d20 roll, dudes. There are too many factors to really narrow it down to one or two "solutions" to make clans better. There is no silver bullet.

[CodeMaster]

Too many factors, but I propose we use some space in this thread to construct a list of the elements we know are correlated with successful clans that people want to be in.  Chime in if you disagree (or have more to add)!:

Things that I think are high on the list:

• A large population of other players to roleplay with
• Opportunities to advance your character (skills, rank, membership to an elite squad, artifacts)
• Leaders with inspiring roleplay
• An opposing force (another city-state, or raiders, elves, or some other group) with a clearly delineated battlefield (the desert, the bazaar, the senate...)
• A safe place to stow your gear like a packrat

Next... things that I (maybe contentiously) think are low on the list:

• Free food/water (I guess it doesn't hurt, especially in the case of newbies)
• High pay (harping on an earlier point)

Footnotes:

Some folks above suggested mergers to create larger player populations.  But you could achieve the same effect if you temporarily closed one or two of the merchant houses to play, or "discouraged" joining one of them over the other, maybe in two or three month rotations.  Every clan has its niche, though, so this would be tricky.

Also, if clans had more things along the lines of archery lanes, obstacle courses, climbing walls - i.e. places to practice skills that are a little harder to practice safely as an independent - that would be a way to differentiate the clanned experience from the indie one.

[bcw81]

Too many factors, but I propose we use some space in this thread to construct a list of the elements we know are correlated with successful clans that people want to be in.  Chime in if you disagree (or have more to add)!:

Things that I think are high on the list:

• A large population of other players to roleplay with
• Opportunities to advance your character (skills, rank, membership to an elite squad, artifacts)
• Leaders with inspiring roleplay
• An opposing force (another city-state, or raiders, elves, or some other group) with a clearly delineated battlefield (the desert, the bazaar, the senate...)
• A safe place to stow your gear like a packrat

Next... things that I (maybe contentiously) think are low on the list:

• Free food/water (I guess it doesn't hurt, especially in the case of newbies)
• High pay (harping on an earlier point)

Footnotes:

Some folks above suggested mergers to create larger player populations.  But you could achieve the same effect if you temporarily closed one or two of the merchant houses to play, or "discouraged" joining one of them over the other, maybe in two or three month rotations.  Every clan has its niche, though, so this would be tricky.

Also, if clans had more things along the lines of archery lanes, obstacle courses, climbing walls - i.e. places to practice skills that are a little harder to practice safely as an independent - that would be a way to differentiate the clanned experience from the indie one.

The one thing I really agree with here is the ability to be a part of an 'elite unit'. I think this was lost over the years, and not for the better.

Units like the Ivory Guard, the Kuraci Outriders, the Salarri Expedition Group (probably going by a similar, but different name) and all the other supergroups that were created back in the day were awesome. I know when I was playing my first real PC that didn't die in a month I wanted to be a part of one of them. I asked staff, I played for a long while, and I was told no - That spot in the clan was diverted permanently to the virtual world. It was a bit of a disappointment. I didn't want to be leadership - I knew I was too new for that - but I also didn't want to permanently be stuck in my current role. I know staff have been working on more lateral opportunities recently, and that's well and good, but there's always something that just feels good about being a part of a super awesome group of awesomeness.

[X-D]

The first thing in this thread I fully agree with.

The one thing I really agree with here is the ability to be a part of an 'elite unit'. I think this was lost over the years, and not for the better.

Units like the Ivory Guard, the Kuraci Outriders, the Salarri Expedition Group (probably going by a similar, but different name) and all the other supergroups that were created back in the day were awesome. I know when I was playing my first real PC that didn't die in a month I wanted to be a part of one of them. I asked staff, I played for a long while, and I was told no - That spot in the clan was diverted permanently to the virtual world. It was a bit of a disappointment. I didn't want to be leadership - I knew I was too new for that - but I also didn't want to permanently be stuck in my current role. I know staff have been working on more lateral opportunities recently, and that's well and good, but there's always something that just feels good about being a part of a super awesome group of awesomeness.

To expand on that, if you are not going to have elite units, get rid of life oath.

[Barsook]

Same here, with the elite group and getting rid of the life oath.  This will allow players to have reason to join a clan as a hunter.

[Lizzie]

The first thing in this thread I fully agree with.

The one thing I really agree with here is the ability to be a part of an 'elite unit'. I think this was lost over the years, and not for the better.

Units like the Ivory Guard, the Kuraci Outriders, the Salarri Expedition Group (probably going by a similar, but different name) and all the other supergroups that were created back in the day were awesome. I know when I was playing my first real PC that didn't die in a month I wanted to be a part of one of them. I asked staff, I played for a long while, and I was told no - That spot in the clan was diverted permanently to the virtual world. It was a bit of a disappointment. I didn't want to be leadership - I knew I was too new for that - but I also didn't want to permanently be stuck in my current role. I know staff have been working on more lateral opportunities recently, and that's well and good, but there's always something that just feels good about being a part of a super awesome group of awesomeness.

To expand on that, if you are not going to have elite units, get rid of life oath.

Yes these elite. limited supergroups were what made being in a GMH clan so exciting. Not even just being in them, but rather, knowing that they existed, and were available for PCs to get in, and knowing that your character might not earn the right to get in it, but could try.

It was something "other" than just being promoted to Sergeant because the last Sergeant got killed on a field expedition, or assassinated in town, or their player joined the Navy and had to store, etc. Promotion by default is okay, if you don't mind being -put- in a leadership position you didn't specifically apply for, and only because you're the only one available with enough rank to promote. But those supergroups were something you as a player AND your character could vie for, something that was extra-special and something only the cool kids could claim.

[X-D]

Not so sure about the join part, but more reason to stay.

Although, I am on the fence about if the elite clan groups should be life oath or not.

Leaning more towards not, because life oath is silly all the way around...Oh, it is so you can trust your employee you say...I say I trust those less.

[Lizzie]

Not so sure about the join part, but more reason to stay.

Although, I am on the fence about if the elite clan groups should be life oath or not.

Leaning more towards not, because life oath is silly all the way around...Oh, it is so you can trust your employee you say...I say I trust those less.

I think Barsook's point was more about the player motivation, rather than the character motivation. The players would want to join the clan, because of the existence of a supergroup their character might earn the right to be part of, some day.

Not that the character would join so they can be elite. The character might not even know about a particular elite group (such as the Archives of a decade ago).  This would make it more attractive to the -player-. So his character could have the "Hey this is Kadius, how awesome!" mentality, and their player wouldn't think "oh jeez, not another Kadian."

[Barsook]

Not so sure about the join part, but more reason to stay.

Although, I am on the fence about if the elite clan groups should be life oath or not.

Leaning more towards not, because life oath is silly all the way around...Oh, it is so you can trust your employee you say...I say I trust those less.

I think Barsook's point was more about the player motivation, rather than the character motivation. The players would want to join the clan, because of the existence of a supergroup their character might earn the right to be part of, some day.

It was.

[Nyr]

I wrote about this already before (here and here). It has been a bit, so we can reassess and see if it is working and then (as some have suggested elsewhere) see if it would be a good idea to export the core ideas (not just copy/paste, but come up with local versions/local flavor) to clans that may need it.