The Clans and Economy Thread

[Delirium]

Also, if clans had more things along the lines of archery lanes, obstacle courses, climbing walls - i.e. places to practice skills that are a little harder to practice safely as an independent - that would be a way to differentiate the clanned experience from the indie one.

On paper, I love this idea, because it's an unspoken formality a lot of the time that if you are joining a clan, you are saying goodbye to a lot of opportunities to raise certain skills - scan, climb, archery, and occasionally sneak and hide.

In practice, I'd like to see those obstacle courses exist - but for members who have proven themselves at least semi-loyal to a clan - the version of a Kuraci mercenary. Not a shit-kicking recruit, but not necessarily lifesworn, either.

[Cutthroat]

As tempting as it is to blame one of the smallest groups of players for problems with the game as a whole, I don't think players of sponsored leaders have total control of any problems with clans. For every "bad" sponsored leader who is ineffective or uninvolved, there are at least as many "bad" employee players who get bored, go into the Labyrinth/Grey Forest/Silt Sea and die or store or, in general, starts playing a troublemaker thinking it will at least make something happen in the clan, but in the long-term ends up being destructive and crippling for activity. I put "bad" in quotes because these are not necessarily bad things for a player to do since there are possible IC justifications, and storing is never actually a bad thing. My overall point is that enjoyment of clans comes with a stipulation or two  - patience, and/or willingness to make fun for yourself at least sometimes. And while I can understand being bored, giving up halfway through your recruit period to kill poor people and gigantic animals because you don't want to RP latrine duty anymore is questionable when there are other ways to leave a clan and other ways to have fun, even if you feel that takes making a new character to do so.

But I'm not even going to pretend that even that is a big problem, when there are players who don't join clans at all because of a perception from the outside that clans are boring and/or not worth the effort. A good clan experience counts on active leadership, active minions and active players outside of the clan. I would say that most of the time, the conditions in the game are perfect for a good clan experience but that players sometimes seem reluctant to give it a try when it is safer to not take the plunge. A lot of the perceived problems in the game can be solved by more players trying new things and taking some risks, not avoiding clans/play areas/sponsored roles because it didn't work out one time.

As for life oaths, those are tricky because there is very little IC reason to reject an offer of one, and in the clans that have life oaths, they are basically the hurdle to get over before your clan leader starts to "trust" you with the important stuff. It shows not only that your character is capable, but that you the player can play a consistent character for 4-6 weeks. I say "trust" because it's part-actual trust and part-just knowing your character will likely be around long enough to do things with. Also, a life oath offer is basically the leader saying to the clan member, "Hey, you've been a great employee - do you want this awesome job for the rest of your life or would you rather go back to being a poor unknown commoner?" 99.9% of people who got that far in a House would take that, given that ideals like freedom of choice and high-paying jobs are not usually a luxury that people have in Zalanthas. I guess it ties back into the problems with unrealistic expectations and entitlement, which goes back even further to the game economy and wealth and power not being special or particularly difficult to get.

[Delirium]

I agree completely and I'd also like to add that the pressure on clan leaders to be leaders, rather than characters who happen to lead, is destructive to the fun of the role, and a definite cause for burnout. Please, please don't treat your clan leaders like plot and item dispensers.

[manonfire]

As one of the players that had a PC in the Salarr Expansion Division, I can tell you unequivocally that it worked, it was amazing, and it was the most enjoyable experience I've ever had as a player in 12 years of dicking around here.

So, you guys should bring it (and another specialized divisions like it) back to the game, cause honestly, we're all here to have fun. Wanna make clans a unique, awesome experience for players? The answer is wagons. Or argosies. Or whatever.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.

[racurtne]

There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.

I do like this. Poor Nenyuk probably wouldn't though! They love unclaimed indy coins.

[Molten Heart]

There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.

I do like this. Poor Nenyuk probably wouldn't though! They love unclaimed indy coins.

Introducing Amos's First Half-Giant Bank of Red Storm.  Not as secure as Nenyuk but at least you don't have to carry it around yourself.

[Delirium]

There's only one sure way to regard independent wealth without twisting the game into knots. Do away with bank accounts for non clanned pcs. As tough as that sounds, it would effectively remove the ability to retain massive amounts of liquid coin. It wouldn't keep it from being possible ... just way harder. Since your clanned pcs would have those bank accounts, that would prove a ginormous benefit of joining a clan.

While I see the spirit behind the idea, the IC reality is that Nenyuk is gonna take anybody's coin who's got coin. When is a clan a "clan" and when is a clan not a clan?

Does a tribe count? What if you have a virtual tribe? What about a merchant group that isn't a GMH but still deals in tens of thousands of coins? Etc, etc.

Automating the ability for Templars to demand the balance of someone standing in the bank with them, though, that could be handy.

>check account amos
The Nenyuki clerk looks over the tall, muscular man, checks a ledger, then eventually nods.
The Nenyuki clerk says, in sirihish:
    "Amos has 30,000 obsidian in his bank account."

"Oh, you've got 30,000 sid in the bank? How fortunate for both of us. You get to live a little while longer, and I get a 20,000 donation to my Fund the War collection. Your contribution to society is noted and appreciated, citizen."

[X-D]

YAAAARRRR....Yes, ED was great fun, even through a few waves of players, it kept being fun.


Life oath, See now, that is my problem...how does that equal trust? To me a life oath PC is MORE likely to betray...partly because they have nothing better to do, partly because they are above suspicion. I can name MANY PCs that took advantage of that, some of them are VERY well known.

My leaders trust the contract PCs more...least they know they are walking a line. And it does not take much to make sure that the PC, should they betray the clan, never gets another job...and meanwhile put a bounty on them for shits and giggles.

[KankWhisperer]

I also wish they brought back the elite groups. It adds some room for people to move up and not be stuck in the same job forever, allowing natural trickling up of ranks. Especially in certain clans where the Sergeant levels are alive for years rl. And just good for the type that covet that kind of thing.

[Dresan]

I really agree with the skills. Arguably warrior, ranger and assassin are some of the most popular mundane classes too. Warriors of course get to train disarm so that is a nice perk of joining a clan.

With scan, i can see hidden guards in the barracks to help. And also special dummies  that would allow you to train archery and throw to max if you got the rank for it, that would make a life oath definitely worth it.

With assassins, your options for training backstab and later sap have always been pretty bad I felt, you got animals on one side, and stabbing innocent people on the other. You would think the clan like the militia would have masters who would be happy to train the next generation of assassins. Just like a hunter could go out backstab an animal once or twice a RL day, perhaps there could be teachers in these clans that are willing to teach these skills in the barracks once or twice a RL day. That would be a huge incentive for a lot of people to join these clans. I can see this making sense for militia on either side, perhaps kurac and noble houses too.

Again not having to risk your life training you skills, not having to train as long to get as good as an independent and being much more efficient sound really good to me while improving the quality of RP and helping interaction seem pretty great to me.  


As for elite groups....kuraci outriders, i miss thee.  

Editted to add: So long as the elite positions are earned in the game. They should almost be an award within the clan. There should never really be any reason to role call people in order to roll characters that would start off in those elite groups.

[bcw81]

I wrote about this already before (here and here). It has been a bit, so we can reassess and see if it is working and then (as some have suggested elsewhere) see if it would be a good idea to export the core ideas (not just copy/paste, but come up with local versions/local flavor) to clans that may need it.

I really like what's happening with the legion and the Levies. That said, it's not the same as being told to come into the pyramid with the templar, slice your hand open with the blade all your forebearers used, and dedicate yourself to the Sun King. It is the specialness of those divisions, and the bragging rights to getting in, that make them sound super fun. The way the Legions have been set up now to allow new 'perks' to the ranks is awesome, but they can never hope to live up to the name of the Ivory Guard.

[solera]

YAAAARRRR....Yes, ED was great fun, even through a few waves of players, it kept being fun.


Life oath, See now, that is my problem...how does that equal trust? To me a life oath PC is MORE likely to betray...partly because they have nothing better to do, partly because they are above suspicion. I can name MANY PCs that took advantage of that, some of them are VERY well known.

My leaders trust the contract PCs more...least they know they are walking a line. And it does not take much to make sure that the PC, should they betray the clan, never gets another job...and meanwhile put a bounty on them for shits and giggles.

Why share an apartment when you can kank in a Kuraci booth?

[JustAnotherGuy]

Byn- No idea. Though it would be nice if I could hire a trooper to watch my back while grebbing or escort me from one place to another without having to talk to the sergeant, since i just want one trooper, not the entire unit. I think troopers should be allowed to take on very small solo contracts at their own discretion. Not sure if that would work out given their schedules. I'm sure other people have better ideas for them, assuming they need anything at all. Being in the byn isn't really luxurious sought after work after all.

Man I love this idea so hard.  I would be playing Byn a lot if I could do things like this.  I mean, with the permission of the Sergeant of course and I toss up a percent of pay to the Sergeant.  This would make the Byn so much more accessible and give off peakers something more to do.

EDIT:  I came into this thread WAY late and didn't read anything but the first page of threads.  SO yeah....

[Riev]

Ahh, the hoops I jumped through to be an Ivory Guard, up to and including currying favor with about 20000 different PC Jihaens (during one of those heavy rotation periods). Alas, it was not to be.


In regards to Life Oaths and benefits, Slavery/Life Oaths are great in theory, but in practice they have not and anecdotally are not proving to be a useful addition. I remember when a year in the Byn, and a recommendation from them, meant more than an ENTIRE YEAR'S worth of recruitment. I remember when serving in Salarr for a full-term contract meant they would support your decision to move on, if you did, and that recommendation meant a lot so far as pay and responsibilities in your next endeavor.


Some people don't need the coded benefits of joining a clan, they're looking for what that clan brings them. A 20 year veteran of the Legion should be able to leave the military's service, on good conditions, and be able to get a job most ANYWHERE (with proper Templarate scrutiny). Same as a 10year Salarri Hunter. 10 years as a hunter is a long time to stay alive, that IC "commendation" should mean a lot. And if you don't know what I mean, how many have gone through:

"Oh so you're a 5year GMH veteran, huh? Looking to join <Noble House>? Well. By the docs, you're just a Recruit, but MAYBE if you do good I can make you a full member in one less month than normal."

"Yeah, but I spent five years working towards this end, I am the perfect, loyal employee."

"No, by the docs you are no better than a Recruit, your experience and recommendations mean nothing, but you get free food/water so why are you bitching?"

[BadSkeelz]

Some people don't need the coded benefits of joining a clan, they're looking for what that clan brings them. A 20 year veteran of the Legion should be able to leave the military's service, on good conditions, and be able to get a job most ANYWHERE (with proper Templarate scrutiny). Same as a 10year Salarri Hunter. 10 years as a hunter is a long time to stay alive, that IC "commendation" should mean a lot.

Any soldier PC who has managed to put 20 years in to the role and not been a total flake has probably learned enough sensitive shit that they should be fireballed/karate-chopped if they ever seriously pursue leaving their respective militia. Same for other clans: your PC should know enough about your employers and their business that you're too dangerous to let loose on the Known.

In conclusion, people who can't handle being life sworn are pussies and are probably breeds.

[ShaLeah]

In conclusion, people who can't handle being life sworn are not only pussies and are probably breeds or breed lovers, but positively without a doubt shouldn't be working for Templars much less Sorcerer Kings (and Muk).

FTFYNooB

Choosing not to be in a clan should be a death sentence. That would change EVERYTHING.

[Delirium]

I kept trying to think of a way to phrase a response, but I can't, so I'm just going to go with a loose equivalent of my expression.

[RogueGunslinger]

It should be entirely dependent on the IC circumstances. I can see exceptions to both sides.

[James de Monet]

I'm pretty sure they're (mostly) joking, D.

[Fathi]

"Oh so you're a 5year GMH veteran, huh? Looking to join <Noble House>? Well. By the docs, you're just a Recruit, but MAYBE if you do good I can make you a full member in one less month than normal."

"Yeah, but I spent five years working towards this end, I am the perfect, loyal employee."

"No, by the docs you are no better than a Recruit, your experience and recommendations mean nothing, but you get free food/water so why are you bitching?"

To be fair, from the perspective of someone hiring a dude like that, you also have to take into account that the world our characters inhabit is full of really shady, shifty people. So you're running a crew of Tor Scorpions, and a guy comes to you who worked for House Salarr for 10 years.

"So, can you tell me why you left House Salarr?"

"Well I spent ten years working toward this end and I am the perfect, loyal employee, but I just didn't want to work for them anymore."

"After ten years you just decided you didn't want to work there anymore?"

"Yeah, I'd rather be a Scorpion."

Now that PC may be perfectly honest--maybe he got sick of hunting, maybe he recently got a new boss in Salarr and the new boss sucked, but the clan leader hiring you is not thinking about those things. The Tor Warlord doing the interview is thinking about how cozy Lady Oash is with Salarr or maybe he's thinking about the time he pissed off a Salarr Agent a couple years ago, and he's wondering if this potential recruit is really as innocent as he seems.

So we end up at:

"No, by the docs you are no better than a Recruit, your experience and recommendations mean nothing, but you get free food/water so why are you bitching? because I have no reason to trust your ass and possibly several reasons NOT to."

[X-D]

Um...alrighht...that is cute, now let us do a real scenario.

Lord tor does not even consider if he pissed off some salarri commoner in the past...he has pissed off many commoners. A commoner is a commoner...the risk with one is as good or bad as the risk with another. Now if this guy worked for a different noble house there might be an issue.

Then there is the player behind lord tor...let us assume he "lord tor" has been around a while. He has hired many people.....mostt of which quickly died...stored...stole..sucked...whatever. and here he gets a proven pc...already skilled..outfitted and able to follow the rules.

Rather a no brainer and worth the risk.

Not to mention...there was a time nearly everybody had to do at least a byn stint to land the good jobs...and after that many had to spend time in the tor academy.
No real difference.

[LauraMars]

Fathi's scenario was hypothetical but logical.  Ten Year Salarr Employee may only be a commoner...but he's a commoner with a lot of deep ties to a powerful organization - maybe he has contacts and friends in the north after so long as a GMH employee.  Maybe a lot of things.  I wouldn't immediately promote the fellow to Tor Scorpion just because he'd shown he could be trusted by another organization, because the very fact that he WAS trusted so well by this other organization would raise red flags with me.

This could be an asset or a drawback, but either way, probably best to stick with the regular initiation period until you find out.  That's how I'd play it, anyway.

In my opinion, I'd say there is a pretty big difference between training in the Byn for 1 year and working for a GMH for a decade.

[X-D]

Seems I missed that one point...of course they go through normal recruit period...that is evaluation and silly to bypass.

[Fathi]

Seems I missed that one point...of course they go through normal recruit period...that is evaluation and silly to bypass.

Then we completely agree.