Widespread Literacy (The Way sub-idea)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think a growing period of literacy among PC commoners, with the PC templarates trying to combat it, would lead to literacy not growing at all, myself, particularly at a PC level.

I think that back-stage antics are the best way to introduce such a thing as this, and while you could include PCs in the advent of such a thing, I feel like tying the world's shoestrings to the PC's shoes, in this case, isn't the best idea.

[BadSkeelz]

Heh, just a thought, I always had trouble suspending disbelief that every clan Quarter Master was either a Literate trained Noble or Merchant, or blessed with the most amazing memory every.

Never got around to ask exactly how military clans, and mercenary clans do record keeping. 

How do they track names? Doodles of their faces?

Any clan of significant size (including the military clans) can be assumed to have a number of virtual scribes and bookkeepers who keep the records up to date.

[BadSkeelz]

I think a growing period of literacy among PC commoners, with the PC templarates trying to combat it, would lead to literacy not growing at all, myself, particularly at a PC level.

I think that back-stage antics are the best way to introduce such a thing as this, and while you could include PCs in the advent of such a thing, I feel like tying the world's shoestrings to the PC's shoes, in this case, isn't the best idea.

If you try to do anything that's going to require the staff to do most of the heavy lifting, you're better off not trying at all. Unless there's someone on staff who thinks it's worth putting their limited time and resources towards, it's not going to happen.

[Redheart]

The only way I would be okay with Nenyuk being the "postal service" of the Known was if it was opened to players once again and the PCs, not NPCs, were the ones doing the delivery and money handling. Otherwise, it would take out a large portion of what this idea aims to do: get more PCs involved, have more plots, etc.

[Reiloth]

It seems sort of convoluted if this is to lead to more IC plots or OOC gratification.

The point of literacy should be the letters, not the delivery means/pickup means. People could hire personal couriers, if it was sensitive information they did not trust Nenyuk to open/read themselves. Otherwise, it is the letter/writing of the letter that becomes important, not the delivery of said mail/letter.

If automated caravans happened (I think that was being discussed in 2.0), mail-service Nenyuki could be on board with the mail bound for its final destination. In that way, mail could be stolen, the courier could be killed during a raid, etc.

I don't see functionary roles like this as being fun (I'm the mail man!) It's sort of like a GMH sponsored-role without any of the power.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think a growing period of literacy among PC commoners, with the PC templarates trying to combat it, would lead to literacy not growing at all, myself, particularly at a PC level.

I think that back-stage antics are the best way to introduce such a thing as this, and while you could include PCs in the advent of such a thing, I feel like tying the world's shoestrings to the PC's shoes, in this case, isn't the best idea.

If you try to do anything that's going to require the staff to do most of the heavy lifting, you're better off not trying at all. Unless there's someone on staff who thinks it's worth putting their limited time and resources towards, it's not going to happen.

I don't think this would require that much staff time at all, aside from a simple change of rules. There's no coding required - aside from perhaps a scribe sub-guild. All that would be happening from staff side is rumors about the world's advancement, and eventual change in regulations.

Now, the Way ... yes, staff would have to get on board with that and do the heavy lifting.

[BadSkeelz]

It seems sort of convoluted if this is to lead to more IC plots or OOC gratification.

The point of literacy should be the letters, not the delivery means/pickup means. People could hire personal couriers, if it was sensitive information they did not trust Nenyuk to open/read themselves. Otherwise, it is the letter/writing of the letter that becomes important, not the delivery of said mail/letter.

If automated caravans happened (I think that was being discussed in 2.0), mail-service Nenyuki could be on board with the mail bound for its final destination. In that way, mail could be stolen, the courier could be killed during a raid, etc.

I don't see functionary roles like this as being fun (I'm the mail man!) It's sort of like a GMH sponsored-role without any of the power.

Most clan roles are functionary. Hunters are functionary. Soldiers are functionary. Mercenaries, grebbers and silt sifters are all functionary, and people play them. They're the roles that bring life and flavor to the world of Armageddon, as much or more so than Lord Fancypants blowing 20,000 sid on black silky braies.

If automated caravans happened (I think that was being discussed in 2.0), mail-service Nenyuki could be on board with the mail bound for its final destination. In that way, mail could be stolen, the courier could be killed during a raid, etc.

Given the state of Armageddon code, automated caravans are likely an absolute nightmare to get set up. From a playing perspective, what advantage would they give over hiring PCs to do the legwork for you? The only person I see benefiting from automated caravans are the people who dispatch them, since they won't have to deal with that pesky business of finding other PCs to carry out their tasks for them.

[Armaddict]

Increasing literacy only works in tandem with a weakening of the Way for non psionicist classes.

If the Way remains as is, it will be just as useless as it is now.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Well, in a practical sense, sure. But from the OOC perspective of player-created content and retaining stories from an IC perspective, no - it would still find use.

[CodeMaster]

I really like the idea that distance could interfere with the Way (dropped links, scrambled messages -- but I think difficulty to contact would be the best and least frustrating).

In fact, even without literacy becoming widespread, this might encourage the use of messengers:  a messenger would have to travel to a region that is close to the message's intended recipient, stay there for a couple weeks and attempt to make contact, and then return.  Messengers would likely want to keep their identities secret.

I am less for the idea of introducing widespread literacy (as always, take my opinions with a grain of salt, I'm probably the least informed commenter here).  Playwise and themewise, it's one of those key things that actually separates the well-to-do from the dirty commoners.  It reinforces the notion that, for Joe Commoner, a real education is simply out of reach.

Pragmatically (and this is a crappy argument), in a PK-anywhere MUD like Arm, writing systems impress me as really hard to get right, especially for newbies who might not know how to exit the editor after they've been backstabbed.

[MeTekillot]

"Rule of the Caravan Zalanthan Wastes: Do not fuck with the man who delivers your mail."
- Rose of Sharon Cassidy

[Desertman]

I wouldn't want to see a "virtual letter deliver system", via anyone like Nenyuk. No virtual post office service, or anything similar.

I would want any transfer of written communication have to be handled by PC's.

If we automate it, we miss out on a ton of possibilities that hand delivering such things would bring to the game.

The idea is to make the transfer of information less instant, and less secure, so why implement a super secure transfer method just to nerf our own idea?


As for literacy and the Way change going hand in hand, yes, it seems ideal that they would go hand in hand.

But even without the Way changes, you would still have a lot of new opportunities added to the game by literacy being more common. Journals lost/found/stolen, secret letters with info "too sensitive to risk a mindworm", wanted posters, propaganda, books on just about every subject, even just stories for IC entertainment written by IC characters.

They work well together (both changes), but the written word is used for a lot of other things and presents a lot of other possibilities for roleplay beyond just communication over distances.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.

I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.

[Desertman]

+1 for the idea of being a highly/mid-ranked House member (including those ranks actually achievable by PC's, not just the special app only roles/virtual roles/NPC roles) giving you access to literacy as a perk.

It would add a real perk to being a House member and wanting to climb the ranks of those Houses, and we all know Houses could use more of that.

(I can also see this being commonly accepted for Templar/Noble aides, and anyone with enough money to pay someone to teach them. If they are wealthy enough to pay for lessons from those with the knowledge, they are likely not on the same "level" socially as your common piece of street trash from the Rinth.)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Someone with the scribe main guild would become the new AIDE CLASS, rather than assassins and burglars.

People with the scribe Main GUILD would receive few skills aside from listen, maybe sneak and hide and scan, basic weapon skills, and the ability to read and write in any language they can speak or come to learn, with the same proficiency they can speak it. It could be a CGP 3 class.

[BadSkeelz]

The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.

I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.

The Protestant Reformation (which spurred things like the 30- and 80- Year Wars) in Europe was driven in large part by commoners translating the Bible, previously written only in Latin and controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, in to the vernacular.

Slaves in the American South were forbidden to know how to read and write, especially after it was used to foment several slave revolts.

Controlling how people communicate controls how people think. The City States maintain illiteracy among the masses in an effort to control the narratives that get passed along. "Yes, the plaque at the foot of this Templar statue totally details what a great hero they were." [Secret Thought: And not that they were actually a bit of a derpface who accidentally drank out of the cleaning fluid keg].

[Desertman]

Someone with the scribe main guild would become the new AIDE CLASS, rather than assassins and burglars.

People with the scribe Main GUILD would receive few skills aside from listen, maybe sneak and hide and scan, basic weapon skills, and the ability to read and write in any language they can speak or come to learn, with the same proficiency they can speak it. It could be a CGP 3 class.

Not sure I would want to see this as a main guild.

An extended subclass sure.

Though personally I would rather see a sweeping wide-scope change that affected all commoners.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.

I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.

The Protestant Reformation (which spurred things like the 30- and 80- Year Wars) in Europe was driven in large part by commoners translating the Bible, previously written only in Latin and controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, in to the vernacular.

Slaves in the American South were forbidden to know how to read and write, especially after it was used to foment several slave revolts.

Controlling how people communicate controls how people think. The City States maintain illiteracy among the masses in an effort to control the narratives that get passed along. "Yes, the plaque at the foot of this Templar statue totally details what a great hero they were." [Secret Thought: And not that they were actually a bit of a derpface who accidentally drank out of the cleaning fluid keg].

Meh. I still dislike it as it currently stands, and would greatly like to see DM's idea come to fruition.

[Reiloth]

The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.

I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.

The Protestant Reformation (which spurred things like the 30- and 80- Year Wars) in Europe was driven in large part by commoners translating the Bible, previously written only in Latin and controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, in to the vernacular.

Slaves in the American South were forbidden to know how to read and write, especially after it was used to foment several slave revolts.

Controlling how people communicate controls how people think. The City States maintain illiteracy among the masses in an effort to control the narratives that get passed along. "Yes, the plaque at the foot of this Templar statue totally details what a great hero they were." [Secret Thought: And not that they were actually a bit of a derpface who accidentally drank out of the cleaning fluid keg].

This +1.

It's hard to imagine a despotic city-state run by magick-wielding Templars that oppress the common caste and where the whisper of democracy dies in a strangled throat allowing a liberal idea like 'writing for all'.

That's basically my 'hang up'. On an OOC front, I agree that literacy could be a great thing for the game. But ICly...Hard to imagine Tek and Muk getting behind this. In a way, it goes against the setting even further, when water is supposed to be a hot commodity and we know OOCly it isn't, or that travel in the desert is supposed to be beyond deadly, and we OOCly know our ways around this...Literacy is another soft-ball.

[Redheart]

Someone with the scribe main guild would become the new AIDE CLASS, rather than assassins and burglars.

People with the scribe Main GUILD would receive few skills aside from listen, maybe sneak and hide and scan, basic weapon skills, and the ability to read and write in any language they can speak or come to learn, with the same proficiency they can speak it. It could be a CGP 3 class.

Not sure I would want to see this as a main guild.

An extended subclass sure.

Though personally I would rather see a sweeping wide-scope change that affected all commoners.

+1

Wouldn't make much sense to hire a scribe to carry a missive if that person had to hire someone to escort them. Though, I realize it has been done, and if this is implemented, probably will be done again and could currently happen IG... but it should definitely not be a main guild.

[BadSkeelz]

It's hard to imagine a despotic city-state run by magick-wielding Templars that oppress the common caste and where the whisper of democracy dies in a strangled throat allowing a liberal idea like 'writing for all'.

That's basically my 'hang up'. On an OOC front, I agree that literacy would be a great thing for the game. But ICly...Hard to imagine Tek and Muk getting behind this.

I agree. Which is why I continue to advocate for literacy becoming more (relatively) common as well as staying just as illegal. Make it an another avenue for conflict, drama, and tension between the commoners and the elites, not just a convenient means to get all our stroppy poetry immortalized in game.

I'd love to see a writing system develop that's kept secret from the templarate and nobles and used as a means to circumvent the powers that be. This is one reason I'm skeptical of Cavilish becoming widespread. My preferred development would be someone devising a writing system for sirihish and keeping it a secret script. I think I'll try that, one day.

[Desertman]

If it stays so illegal that it will get you killed on sight, it basically becomes what we have with spice smuggling currently in Allanak.

Something that shows great promise in terms of adding some really cool roleplay to the game, but also something that is very rarely seen and even more rarely fully utilized to its full potential.

When you can be killed on sight for it, only the truly stupid, or the truly cunning will ever dabble in it.

We have a really smart player base that likes to live. Most of them wouldn't dabble in it as such. Me included.

We have some people who can be truly cunning, but, they are rare.

If we are going to keep it so rare that it might as well not even exist at all, I don't see the reason in even making any changes.

We can already basically do it that way with our current system.

Now, I would love to see and would EXPECT to see all literature highly policed by the templarate and the militias of both city-states.

I don't mean they kill you on sight for being able to read and write. I mean they are prone to searching your bags, just like they are now for illegal substances, but also taking note of any documents you have on you for review.

I feel bad for the guy who has blasphemous documents on his person that is discovered during one of these searches.

The documents would of course be destroyed, most likely along with their carrier.

[Desertman]

This of course is another great facet to the idea I am going to record.

Templars/militia soldiers are now also responsible for keeping the written word in accordance with the agendas of their respective city states.

Just more interaction. More drama. More conflict. More things to do for everyone.

[Desertman]

I also want to be the guy who gets hired to smuggle opposing city-state propaganda into the other city-state.

So much fun to be had there.

[BadSkeelz]

If it stays so illegal that it will get you killed on sight, it basically becomes what we have with spice smuggling currently in Allanak.

etc.

Agreed that the risk/reward for commoner literacy right now is almost entirely slanted towards the risk. Either have to lower risk (i.e. limited legality), up reward (i.e. more secure versus other means of communication, ability to leave messages for those you cannot meet in person?), or do both.