Widespread Literacy (The Way sub-idea)

[Harmless]

meh. you were quoting bracken there, not me, so uh, yeah, be careful with your quotes.

and yeah, I maintain that there are a dozen or more reasons this idea sucks ass, so I guess we do have to agree to disagree.


ehh.. cause I pagerolled, I will appease the pageroll gods with more argument.

So. Let's, for the sake of argument, say your idea is done. Great. Now we have a new hurdle. Trying to figure out who is Wayable right now, and who isn't.

So, if your idea were to be implemented... which I hope it won't be, because I still think it sucks for the vast majority of potential uses... then it necessitates some partner skills to be made.

If our mutual goal is to increase plot intrigue without a playability detriment, we need new things to add back some playability we lose... for no real reason.


skill idea: sense. use sense to detect everybody you've wayed previously, who is "in range" of your waying. By hitting sense..

>sense
You suffer from use of the Way.
...you feel the presence of the tall, muscular man.
...you feel the presence of the svelte, aureate-haired man.
...you sense three other presences.

Based on skill, you get more or less, etc.

[Desertman]

meh. you were quoting bracken there, not me, so uh, yeah, be careful with your quotes.

and yeah, I maintain that there are a dozen or more reasons this idea sucks ass, so I guess we do have to agree to disagree.

Oops, my mistake on the quotes. Fixed.

Agreed to disagree with your assessment in terms of "sucking ass".

[Desertman]

So, if your idea were to be implemented... which I hope it won't be, because I still think it sucks for the vast majority of potential uses... then it necessitates some partner skills to be made.

If our mutual goal is to increase plot intrigue without a playability detriment, we need new things to add back some playability we lose... for no real reason.


skill idea: sense. use sense to detect everybody you've wayed previously, who is "in range" of your waying. By hitting sense..

>sense
You suffer from use of the Way.
...you feel the presence of the tall, muscular man.
...you feel the presence of the svelte, aureate-haired man.
...you sense three other presences.

Based on skill, you get more or less, etc.

While I appreciate your attempt at an addition to my idea for improvement purposes...I just don't see any reason why this would be needed. It seems pointless.

Would be a pretty cool skill for psions.

[BadSkeelz]

What you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages.

Because we all remember living stateless in caves and working with stone tools until Steve Jobs invented the iPhone.

D-Man's proposing a limiting of the range of the Way. Not it's wholesale removal. If you could still use the Way within a reasonable distance from your home turf, I don't see how Zalanthas' power structures are going to collapse. Cross-Known communication via the Way is already spotty due to interception risks; I think there might be a limit on how far the Way can go already.

Most clans are already centered around small geographical areas. Tribal lands, a single City State, a single district in that City state, etc. Only the merchant houses routinely conduct cross-Known business, and they probably have the easiest time of moving about of anyone. When was the last time you had a chat with someone on the other side of the Known? Unless you're doing some torrid cross-border affair between Lord Templar Tressylashes and Faithful Lord Chiseledbutt, being limited to communicating with people on your half of the Known is not going to be a huge blocker.

The Way also squashes a great many plots, probably as many as it "facilitates." This was especially true in the north, and may still be to a lesser extent.

[Harmless]

pointless?

your idea is that you can't way someone across the Known but can Way someone near you.

If your idea was done cold, then you wouldn't know who was wayable and who not until you try to way them.

scenario:

>think Oh gee, I'm the grebber Amos. I work for four people. I wonder who's around right now...

>contact talia

nope.. maybe my skill sucks, or maybe they're in tuluk... i dunno..

>contact amosette

nope... huh, maybe she went to luir's, I dunno...

>contact talia

YAY! Talia is here...

(talia moves out of range, breaking the connection)

Oh damn. Okay, who else..


>contact yolo.the.dwarf

Nope... maybe he's out hunting already, damn.

yeah, sucks. Here's alternate scenario.

>think I'm Amos, da badest, best grebber in the south. Who's got the balls to be southside lately?

>sense

..You feel the presence of Talia's mind.

>think Ah, just Talia. I knew she had balls.

>contact talia

[Desertman]

pointless?

your idea is that you can't way someone across the Known but can Way someone near you.

If your idea was done cold, then you wouldn't know who was wayable and who not until you try to way them.

scenario:

>think Oh gee, I'm the grebber Amos. I work for four people. I wonder who's around right now...

>contact talia

nope.. maybe my skill sucks, or maybe they're in tuluk... i dunno..

>contact amosette

nope... huh, maybe she went to luir's, I dunno...

>contact talia

YAY! Talia is here...

(talia moves out of range, breaking the connection)

Oh damn. Okay, who else..


>contact yolo.the.dwarf

Nope... maybe he's out hunting already, damn.

yeah, sucks. Here's alternate scenario.

>think I'm Amos, da badest, best grebber in the south. Who's got the balls to be southside lately?

>sense

..You feel the presence of Talia's mind.

>think Ah, just Talia. I knew she had balls.

>contact talia

You could also just do what you do now.

"Contact Talia", and if she isn't online, or is too far away (for the new scenario), you won't be able to find her mind.

Getting a list of everyone online around you not only seems pointless, it seems like it would be abused a ridiculous amount constantly.

That sounds horrible.

Why not just ask for a, "Who Allanak" command that shows you everyone online in Allanak? It would do the same thing.

Game breaking.

[Patuk]

The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?

[flurry]

I feel like which language the "widespread literacy" is based in makes a huge difference. If it's sirihish, you're taking away a major distinction between the high-blooded and commoners. But any other language would be really difficult to justify.

It's interesting to think about but I don't want a fundamental change to the game world on this level.

[Harmless]

What you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages.

Because we all remember living stateless in caves and working with stone tools until Steve Jobs invented the iPhone.

D-Man's proposing a limiting of the range of the Way. Not it's wholesale removal. If you could still use the Way within a reasonable distance from your home turf, I don't see how Zalanthas' power structures are going to collapse. Cross-Known communication via the Way is already spotty due to interception risks; I think there might be a limit on how far the Way can go already.

Most clans are already centered around small geographical areas. Tribal lands, a single City State, a single district in that City state, etc. Only the merchant houses routinely conduct cross-Known business, and they probably have the easiest time of moving about of anyone. When was the last time you had a chat with someone on the other side of the Known? Unless you're doing some torrid cross-border affair between Lord Templar Tressylashes and Faithful Lord Chiseledbutt, being limited to communicating with people on your half of the Known is not going to be a huge blocker.

The Way also squashes a great many plots, probably as many as it "facilitates." This was especially true in the north, and may still be to a lesser extent.

Alright, let's just do it how you guys want, and see how "fun" it becomes, all while shitting on the original setting and changing it... irreversibly, unless we can all suspend our disbelief for it.. especially considering how this idea is being suggested (rudely).

The reason I say this is that you're describing some uses and hypotheticals but there are many others. I have the strong feeling that this change would strongly suit your playing styles, but in my case, I just see it being a huge bitch.

You want more examples. here's one, from a PC now dead for over a year. I never would have been able to, for example, assassinate this PC once in what was one of my favorite scenes of all time. basically, I was in city/village X, while my boss was in city Y. the victim and my PC were on a trip for the boss. The victim began saying shit about the boss that was really offensive to my PC. I contacted "the boss" over the way, and discussed how it made my feel. It was a BACK AND FOURTH sharing of information, and by the end of about 20 way messages between us, the decision was clear. This person, the victim, had to die. They were still an employee of the boss at the time. My PC gave hints about his possible intent many times. My PC communicated simeultaneously with the victim and the boss the whole time.

Then, my PC went out with the victim into the desert. Not long after, my PC killed them. No witnesses, efficient, and possible, all thanks to the Way between cities.

So, there's one. Of, like I said, dozens, or many dozens, of reasons why this idea sucks ass.

[Harmless]

The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?

Oh, you know, conspire to kill someone with a bone sword. It happens, you know.

Okay, I'm just going to say it. The Way has allowed me to kill, or help kill, a lot of PCs, I'm not going to put a number down but it's many of them, and if it were changed, many of those kills would have happened, because discussions that cross distances instantly was integral to most of them (but not all, I concede that point).

So, I dunno how the community feels about dying, but according to Nyr's statistics, they really enjoy it (people stick around in the game longer if they get killed with their first PC). So, I think I have a guess... about how a lot of the community would feel about this idea. Regarding the Way.

I am not arguing against the literacy ideas in this thread, btw.

edit: I fixed the bolded part to read what I meant to write. Not talking about teleportation.. 

[Desertman]

The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?

Oh, you know, conspire to kill someone with a bone sword. It happens, you know.

Okay, I'm just going to say it. The Way has allowed me to kill, or help kill, a lot of PCs, I'm not going to put a number down but it's many of them, and if it were changed, many of those kills would have happened, because crossing distances instantly was integral to most of them (but not all, I concede that point).

So, I dunno how the community feels about dying, but according to Nyr's statistics, they really enjoy it (people stick around in the game longer if they get killed with their first PC). So, I think I have a guess.

So, you use the Way to kill people regularly by instant-transfer of information and then crossing huge distances instantly to do it.

This is not helping your argument.

This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly. It wouldn't keep you from spamming from Allanak to Redstorm or the Salt Flats or the Rinth or anywhere in the southern hemisphere to kill people.

So, if your only argument is it keeps you from spamming instantly across the Known to kill people over vast distances....ouch...all I can say to that is, thanks for helping my idea.

[BadSkeelz]

If you hadn't been able to use the Way to devise this plan on the fly, Harmless, what would be stopping you from going to your boss, informing him of this other guy's insults, and working out a plan to kill him there? Would that just have been too slow for you?

[Harmless]

Nice question badskeelz. It's nice to have a reply to my post that tries to see things from my perspective.

Maybe it would have been too slow. Maybe it never would have happened. Maybe it would have been fine to arrange it later.

But maybe, maybe the angry mood at the time of my PC meant that if that discussion didn't happen right -then-, at the peak of his barbaric, murderous rage, then the kill never would have happened, because by the time he got back to the boss, he would have been spiced out of his mind, he would have forgotten to bring it up, etc.

All I can tell you is what did happen. That PC got killed, and they never saw it coming. It was brutal. It was efficient. It was also betrayal, and it all happened in the space of two scenes.

I liked it. I don't want to not be able to do that.

The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?

Oh, you know, conspire to kill someone with a bone sword. It happens, you know.

Okay, I'm just going to say it. The Way has allowed me to kill, or help kill, a lot of PCs, I'm not going to put a number down but it's many of them, and if it were changed, many of those kills would have happened, because crossing distances instantly was integral to most of them (but not all, I concede that point).

So, I dunno how the community feels about dying, but according to Nyr's statistics, they really enjoy it (people stick around in the game longer if they get killed with their first PC). So, I think I have a guess.

So, you use the Way to kill people regularly by instant-transfer of information and then crossing huge distances instantly to do it.

This is not helping your argument.

This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly. It wouldn't keep you from spamming from Allanak to Redstorm or the Salt Flats or the Rinth or anywhere in the southern hemisphere to kill people.

So, if your only argument is it keeps you from spamming instantly across the Known to kill people over vast distances....ouch...all I can say to that is, thanks for helping my idea.

The bolded section is wrong. I would use the way to instant transfer information, have a discussion, and then decide to kill someone right in front of me, if you read my little vignette.

Okay, so, I -could- keep going on about times and ways I've used the Way to kill people, but some is more recent and more remote ideas are fuzzy. All I know is the Way is awesome and I use it to keep killing you guys...

This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly.

Oh, so the idea is basically block comms between Allanak and Tuluk. That wasn't iterated so clearly to me.

yeah, go ahead and do that. That, I agree with, because I never needed to do -that- to kill people. You win! CONGRATS!! I AGREE WITH YOU OH MY GOD can we go back to mudsexing now 

[MeTekillot]

Stop being an asshole.

[RogueGunslinger]

I love you MeTekillot.

[Desertman]

Oh, so the idea is basically block comms between Allanak and Tuluk. That wasn't iterated so clearly to me.

yeah, go ahead and do that. That, I agree with, because I never needed to do -that- to kill people. You win! CONGRATS!! I AGREE WITH YOU OH MY GOD can we go back to mudsexing now  

It's in the very first post.......It is the only idea I have..........

The Way:

Someone in Allanak can contact most everyone in Allanak and in the deserts surrounding Allanak. Maybe as far as Redstorm but not quiet as far as Luir's.

Someone in Tuluk could contact everyone Tuluk and the surrounding scrub/forests near Tuluk, but not quite all of the way to Luir's.

Either way, I'm glad we agree. I don't want to kill your comms locally. Just "over huge distances".

[Harmless]

Stop being an asshole.

I don't feel like I'm being any douchier than desertman is, and he's who I'm primarily talking to here, not you.

also:

Don't get between a dog and his meat numerous PKs facilitated over the Way.

[Harmless]

Someone in Allanak can contact most everyone in Allanak and in the deserts surrounding Allanak. Maybe as far as Redstorm but not quiet as far as Luir's.

Someone in Tuluk could contact everyone Tuluk and the surrounding scrub/forests near Tuluk, but not quite all of the way to Luir's.

does not equal:

This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly.

[Desertman]

Someone in Allanak can contact most everyone in Allanak and in the deserts surrounding Allanak. Maybe as far as Redstorm but not quiet as far as Luir's.

Someone in Tuluk could contact everyone Tuluk and the surrounding scrub/forests near Tuluk, but not quite all of the way to Luir's.

does not equal:

This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly.

Yes it does.

[Harmless]

okay.

* Harmless leaves the thread but not before politely thanking everyone.

[Desertman]

Anyways.

To everyone else who is still here and having a discussion.

I just had another idea. This would also let us do things like intercept written bounties on people (which could create some awesome plotlines), or post written bounties on people (kind of like the "Old West"). That sort of thing. That would be pretty awesome in my opinion instead of just seeing your basic "Kill this guy" post on the IG boards.

[Desertman]

I just had a funny thought about an artist making a living in game as a sketch artist for criminals as described by their victims for wanted posters. I don't think I would want to necessarily see that, it just made me chuckle to think about it.

[Desertman]

It would also be kind of neat to be able to give written orders to people for materials/gear etc...Not because we "need" that, it would just add some flavor to things.

[BadSkeelz]

Limiting the distance of the Way is just one possibility of "nerfing" it for purposes of making literacy actually worthwhile.

Another approach would be to make the Way less secure. This would have a big impact on elite roles, but might also give incentive to commoner groups who have something to hide.

It'd be kind of hilarious if sometimes you just kind of picked up other people's Way messages, like a radio.

I think this is worth discussing. What if you got messages without an identifier of who was sending them? Something like:

The foreign thought passes through your mind,
   "Tonight we kill Lord Fancypants."

This keeps the receiver in some doubt. Who was that from, and who was it going to? More importantly, there will always be the risk for the sender of what MIGHT be heard over the Way, and by whom. This would encourage increased use of notes and couriers to pass the really sensitive messages along.

Criminal and subversive groups would thus have incentive to learn how to write, lest they inadvertently tip off a templar about next week's heist.

[MeTekillot]

It includes more people in plots when the information brokers are corrupt, and Wylon the Wily Wayman who functions within a group of PCs who have decided to set up smallish camps between the cities to pass semi-instant Way messages is now passing on some of that clandestine plotting info to other people who would otherwise be left in the dark and unincluded.