Giving this its own thread since everyone seemed to like the concept and it was recommended that it should be given its own post not in the RAT thread.
Quote from: Desertman on June 24, 2014, 03:08:32 PM
Going in another direction here.
When are we going to see more widespread literacy in Armageddon?
I know it was going to be a feature more readily available to the common classes in the 2.0 discussions of yore.
I think it would add a lot to the game and make for a lot of interesting situations.
I would love to see the following:
Introduction of widespread literacy.
The Way:
Someone in Allanak can contact most everyone in Allanak and in the deserts surrounding Allanak. Maybe as far as Redstorm but not quiet as far as Luir's.
Someone in Tuluk could contact everyone Tuluk and the surrounding scrub/forests near Tuluk, but not quite all of the way to Luir's.
Newbies who need to get in touch with employers etc in their city would still be able to. Friends who want to meet for drinks/talks would still be able to. It would really just do away with the "instant-message across the entire world" concept.
That sort of change.
It would let people who need to meet up with each other easily communicate meeting up with each other, but also create a system that promotes the idea of couriers and written letters etc...
Quote from: Delirium on June 24, 2014, 03:28:00 PM
... and allow people to actually disappear, if they flee far enough into the wastes... no more "gee I wonder if Amos is still alive, >contact Amos"
Would make things smoother on a continuity level, too. "Oh, yeah, I was traveling with my gang way out yonder, that's why you couldn't find me last week."
The most compelling argument, for me, is wondering just how many IC stories are lost because nobody can tell them. What if they were more often and easily found IC?
plus I want to play Croaker from the Black Company.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 24, 2014, 03:57:42 PM
I like that Way idea.
Quote from: LauraMars on June 24, 2014, 04:36:41 PM
These are good ideas. I like the idea of geographical or regional limitations to the Way. It would make spying for another city state -way- more difficult, too - you'd actually have to travel to deliver messages to your employer. Or write encrypted letters (I am also for more widespread literacy).
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 24, 2014, 05:00:57 PM
I'm so with this all. So with it.
Quote from: Patuk on June 24, 2014, 05:21:38 PM
I love the idea of Way changes. Messengers and people disappearing would actually be a thing, and the value of psionicists might increase a bit as well, seeing as I imagine they'd not have these limitations apply to them.
Quote from: Eyeball on June 24, 2014, 05:30:16 PM
Absolutely yes! It could be introduced this way too; sale of the right to commoners. Say it's not officially legal, but some commoner who has served his city well and can pay a fee of ten large to some templar or noble sponsor can learn to read and have it overlooked as long as it isn't flaunted around too much.
Quote from: Desertman on June 25, 2014, 10:42:09 AM
I just realized if we had widespread literacy....we could actually have people who make a living as authors, in game...
You could actually write and sell books, in Zalanthas.
I know that has to appeal to about 90% of you.
Quote from: Barsook on June 25, 2014, 10:44:00 AM
Poets too.
Quote from: QuillDipper on June 25, 2014, 12:15:04 PM
Could you imagine finding journals.
Deep caves with skeletons and tiny books that have some long lived PC's entire tale written out.
Quote from: Barsook on June 25, 2014, 12:16:22 PM
Maybe this could be the next chapter of the Known's History. Mass learning how to read and write takes over!
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 25, 2014, 12:18:59 PM
Short of the templarates killing you (which should happen anyway in the struggle for Literacy), is there anything really stopping this from occurring now? Isn't literacy a skill that can be taught like any other? A few rogue scribes could get this ball rolling.
Quote from: QuillDipper on June 25, 2014, 12:21:14 PM
That would be fun, if it became more prominent while still being heretical. Allanak could have book burnings, apartment busts for treasonous material, ect.
Edit: Not that there isn't treasonous items already but, I mean, books would be a bit more spy/traitorish than spice or something.
Quote from: Barsook on June 25, 2014, 12:28:56 PM
New focus: Teach the rest of the Known how to read/write
Quote from: Redheart on June 25, 2014, 12:30:14 PM
Quote from: QuillDipper on June 25, 2014, 12:15:04 PM
Could you imagine finding journals.
Deep caves with skeletons and tiny books that have some long lived PC's entire tale written out.
I really dig this. When your PC dies you could have the option to drop your journal or not. Which would contain the bios that you've written for your character... and everyone has at least one, which is their initial background. Would also provide more player pay-off for spending the time writing bios and could perhaps get more people into writing bios at all or at least regularly. Or, if releasing your bios to the Known upon your pc's death is something is not a popular notion, another option could be to have a separate journal option, like bios, that you can enter from the website, this way you could put in your journal exactly what you would want others to know upon your pc's death.
Edit: Just thinking about this gives me tons of ideas for playability and plots and things. What's in your journal doesn't have to necessarily be truthful ;) and even things such as treasure "maps" and cryptic messages can be written into them.
Quote from: Barsook on June 25, 2014, 12:31:02 PM
I dig this too!
I took the liberty of grabbing all posts/replies to the original topic and putting them here for any further discussion.
First they're demanding literacy! Next thing you know, freedom of the press! I'm telling you, Lord Amos Fale, if we don't keep the common man down and in his proper place, we're in for a world of shit!
I like the idea of the journal entry thing dropped on death, but only if it's an OOC concept. Real journals read ICly should be written ICly.
I don't like it.
I feel that widespread literacy would serve to empower commoners too much. It'd naturally lead to greater technological innovations and scientific understanding. We don't need no industrial revolution.
http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/28ngyt/til_it_took_early_humans_110000_generations_of/
This doesn't feel Zalanthas to me. I dislike these ideas.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 25, 2014, 03:25:00 PM
I feel that widespread literacy would serve to empower commoners too much. It'd naturally lead to greater technological innovations and scientific understanding. We don't need no industrial revolution.
http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/28ngyt/til_it_took_early_humans_110000_generations_of/
Or more so, what if texts detailing sorcerery became available. We don't need no sorcerer revolution. Think of the carnage..... think of children.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 25, 2014, 03:25:00 PM
I feel that widespread literacy would serve to empower commoners too much. It'd naturally lead to greater technological innovations and scientific understanding. We don't need no industrial revolution.
http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/28ngyt/til_it_took_early_humans_110000_generations_of/
This article uses the post ergo propter fallacy. Also, Zalanthas has literacy just fine. Come up with something better.
It'd be cool if maybe literacy were not illegal in at least one of the city states. Maybe in Tuluk, making those there more educated as a whole, but only with the 'right kind of education'. Also, scrolls and texts might make a good hiding place for secret and clandestine things. Restrict literacy to something only citizens can posses, just an idea.
Quote from: James de Monet on June 25, 2014, 03:42:10 PM
Quote from: manonfire on June 25, 2014, 02:57:38 PM
All I'd ever use widespread literacy for is to draw a bunch of ASCII dicks on parchment scrolls and leave them all over the city.
#sorrynotsorry
You have scribble for that! (And honestly, it's probably not that unrealistic, but I have a feeling staff might not adore the idea)
Some kind of subversive literature or something goes contrary to supporting the ruling class is going to cause controversy. IMO controversy is good. It's not like the template wouldn't (on an OOC level) enjoy rooting this kind of thing out. And short of a printing press or a room full of scribes churning out copies, a single or small number of subversive documents aren't going to get much circulation before being destroyed.
Quote from: ShaLeah on June 25, 2014, 03:32:27 PM
This doesn't feel Zalanthas to me. I dislike these ideas.
If it had always been in, it would.
It hasn't always been in, so it doesn't.
Change is scary.
Quote from: lordcooper on June 25, 2014, 03:25:00 PM
I feel that widespread literacy would serve to empower commoners too much. It'd naturally lead to greater technological innovations and scientific understanding. We don't need no industrial revolution.
http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/28ngyt/til_it_took_early_humans_110000_generations_of/
You have to remember, we have an entire staff devoted to making sure things don't get out of hand. Take your "early humans", and implement blocks like, "There are only about 300 of them, and they are being watched over by a handful of IMM's who will not allow this to happen.", then see if the science/history would still hold true.
If they don't want this to lead to an industrial revolution, it won't. It isn't that they would have to actively prevent it. It is that they would be required to do things to even make it codedly/ic'ly happen. All they would have to do, is not do those things for the players who might be attempting it.
It's that simple.
Quote from: Molten Heart on June 25, 2014, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: lordcooper on June 25, 2014, 03:25:00 PM
I feel that widespread literacy would serve to empower commoners too much. It'd naturally lead to greater technological innovations and scientific understanding. We don't need no industrial revolution.
http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/28ngyt/til_it_took_early_humans_110000_generations_of/
Or more so, what if texts detailing sorcerery became available. We don't need no sorcerer revolution. Think of the carnage..... think of children.
It would be kind of fun for Templars and soldiers to actively stamp that out.
I think this is actually an argument "for" widespread literacy, as that sounds like some awesome interaction.
Man I honestly just cannot see this being used for more than passing middle school notes between aides.
Sorry, I've lost my faith in players creating drama that isn't borderline Gossip Girl.
I think it's a wonderful idea. Too many stories simply vanish because there's no one to tell them.
EDIT:
Quote from: Is Friday on June 25, 2014, 04:11:45 PM
Man I honestly just cannot see this being used for more than passing middle school notes between aides.
Sorry, I've lost my faith in players creating drama that isn't borderline Gossip Girl.
Could have fun stamping this out, too.
I don't think it should be common in the slightest.
I do think there should be more chances for something like illegal writings to happen or more a place for it as an issue that a city state's templars have to deal with.
I think the older I get, the more I realize that most others in this playerbase prefer melodrama to drama. I hate it.
I'm afraid I just don't see what that has to do with this topic. I could just be missing it.
Have faith IF, there is drama out there. I promise. I will be more dramatic for you. I swear.
Why is literarcy illegal in Luir's, anyhow? Those merchants will sell anything for the right price.
Think of the poetry that would be inscribed on the walls of the Byn latrine.
If literacy were legal, it'd still be something for the privileged, it wouldn't just be limited to nobility. I don't think the common person would really have a need to be literate, especially if others around them were. They could just have things read to them or have someone write something for them if any real need arose.
What if literacy made more available to players right of character generation? Maybe through extended subguilds or tacked on using CGPs (when that becomes available). IC reasons would have to exist to explain their literacy (schooling, tutoring, unusual circumstances, etc). If literacy were illegal, this ability would need to be kept secret (like sorcerey, mindbender abilities, and hidden elementalism). If literacy were legal, this would be an easy way to have a literate character without going through the process of learning in game.
Quote from: Molten Heart on June 25, 2014, 04:57:44 PM
If literacy were legal, it'd still be something for the privileged, it wouldn't just be limited to nobility. I don't think the common person would really have a need to be literate, especially if others around them were. They could just have things read to them or have someone write something for them if any real need arose.
What if literacy made more available to players right of character generation? Maybe through extended subguilds or tacked on using CGPs (when that becomes available). IC reasons would have to exist to explain their literacy (schooling, tutoring, unusual circumstances, etc). If literacy were illegal, this ability would need to be kept secret (like sorcerey, mindbender abilities, and hidden elementalism). If literacy were legal, this would be an easy way to have a literate character without going through the process of learning in game.
I would like to see it as part of the CGP system. That would work well I think.
I think it would be "legal", but still only something those with the proper/privileged backgrounds would have access to.
Having it CGP restricted would also ensure the power to write things that stay permanently in the game world would not fall into the hands of newbs who are going to roam around writing stupid shit like Naruto fan fiction or something not applicable to the setting. (Though our playerbase is responsible enough that anything like that would just get junked upon discovery anyways. It wouldn't be game breaking.)
Scholar extended subguild.
Is a master of all commonly known languages through research or teachings, be it legal or not. Starts with the 'literacy' skill at apprentice. Has a smattering knowledge of lesser-known languages such as Anyar and Heshrak. Later in their careers they are able to learn Tatlum, Kentu and after rigorous work, Nrizkt.
Eh? EH?!
For the record, literacy is not a blanket skill. Each language has it's own specific reading/writing skill.
A lot of what has been mentioned in this thread is represented/obtainable in game if you play your cards right.
That said, I think it would be neat if literacy remained illegal but was available as a CGP option.
I see nothing that would be lost with implementing more common literacy and Desertman's proposal for the Way to be limited by distance.
I see many things that could be gained from them.
Why not? Could someone tell me why not?
I have a solution. A glorious solution.
Elves.
Humans have it better than elves do, sirihish is a language everyone speaks, and one of which the writing the templarate can crack down on.
Elves do not have such issues.
- Allundean is not a language under the templarate's 'control.' Sirihish isn't spoken by the free, whereas there are many, many elves with no sorceror-king to bow to.
- Elves are a tribal peoples who are prone to being shifty and distrustful of outsiders. To devise a language on your own is hard, but for a family of people to do so is doable. Knowing you'll have each other's backs and being able to cover your secret language is an added bonus.
- Elves don't have as much to lose as humans do, and are much too proud for their own good. It is in-character for them to elevate themselves above the human filth by knowing to read.
Fuck cavilish, fuck sirihish, and all your other languages. Screw the idea of entire ruling classes overturning thousand-year traditions. Have these people wrest control of literacy themselves.
Quote from: Patuk on June 25, 2014, 05:55:03 PM
I have a solution. A glorious solution.
Elves.
Humans have it better than elves do, sirihish is a language everyone speaks, and one of which the writing the templarate can crack down on.
Elves do not have such issues.
- Allundean is not a language under the templarate's 'control.' Sirihish isn't spoken by the free, whereas there are many, many elves with no sorceror-king to bow to.
- Elves are a tribal peoples who are prone to being shifty and distrustful of outsiders. To devise a language on your own is hard, but for a family of people to do so is doable. Knowing you'll have each other's backs and being able to cover your secret language is an added bonus.
- Elves don't have as much to lose as humans do, and are much too proud for their own good. It is in-character for them to elevate themselves above the human filth by knowing to read.
Fuck cavilish, fuck sirihish, and all your other languages. Screw the idea of entire ruling classes overturning thousand-year traditions. Have these people wrest control of literacy themselves.
FUCK YEEEEAAAAAAH!!!
I don't approve of widespread literacy. Less cloistered literacy, sure. It could be done by expanding access to written Cavilish (which is not actually a "writing system"). But I definitely wouldn't approve of literacy for the masses. Absolutely not. Doesn't feel Zalanthan to me.
Sweet mother of pageroll, you have never treated me as well as you have today, and for that I thank thee.
I've always wondered why desert elves don't get RW allundean.
For what it's worth, the gith apparently have the strongest writing tradition in the Known, having developed in response to short lifespans and harsh conditions. So I wouldn't be too terribly surprised to see elves pulling similar tricks.
I don't think widespread literacy should be legal for the masses. I do think there is room for underground literacy to exist. I also strongly suspect that the means for accomplishing this are already in the game.
I could write another thread-assay on the subject like I have about armies before, but I'd rather keep it brief.
Historically, writing developed in urban societies rather than agricultural or nomadic ones, due to the added emphasis on logistics, services and trade.
Delves are not urban, they are nomadic.
That said, for none of them at all to be able to write is doubtful as well, and is something I'd love to see altered.
Let me amend my previous statement to "I'd not be surprised to see City elves pulling similar tricks."
what city elves
badum-tish
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 25, 2014, 05:52:27 PM
I see nothing that would be lost with implementing more common literacy and Desertman's proposal for the Way to be limited by distance.
I see many things that could be gained from them.
Why not? Could someone tell me why not?
This is kind of my argument too.
I don't see any negatives. I see a lot of potential for new and interesting things/situations/concepts. I can't think of anything about it that says, "This would ruin the game." or, "That would destroy my ability to A/B/C.".
I'm on the fence. Like I said in RAT, not really sold on it, but I am not against it, either.
I like the idea of communication becoming more limited. I like that messages might -actually- be intercepted, and I like the idea of dark hand-off meetings. I like the idea of being able to hide out in deep wilderness without everyone knowing you're still alive. I like the idea of being able to disappear. I like the idea, pretty much.
Problem is...after this long, I still feel kinda like ShaLeah over there, where I'm so used to it being the way it is that the change seems kinda wrong, somehow.
However...writing is underutilized as is. Even between nobles and templars. The Way...just too efficient and easy.
What I said on the RAT was that I like the idea of the Way becoming harder to use with more distance between you and the target, to the point of not working.
I don't really like the idea of wide-spread literacy.
The lack of literacy provides immediate control by the Templarate over its subjects, both in Allanak and in Tuluk. History and truth become subjective. What one person says is 'fact' becomes 'legend' and more importantly, 'myth'.
By making literacy widespread, you have the ability to dissent. This is something the Templarates have seemed to not want, and for good reason.
I don't think that doesn't allow for some wiggle room -- Rogue literacy sounds like a cool concept. But I don't like the idea of it being 'wide spread'. As a facet that can be included in a special app, or given to prestigious scribe slaves/employees...That makes sense. And if the Templarate finds out you leaked that precious, precious knowledge...Say goodbye.
Limiting the range of using the Way to contact someone is a good idea.
Sometimes one would use written communication instead of using the Way for more sensitive details, even if it'd be easier. Sometimes the intended recipient isn't online at the same time. Written communication would be useful here for clans leaders to exchange notes and for bosses to give underlings orders.
It'd be kind of hilarious if sometimes you just kind of picked up other people's Way messages, like a radio.
On the game side, I like the idea of limiting the way, and using messengers to carry messages, either in their heads or on paper. The way does feel too much like a cell phone , sometimes.
The way however exists for OOC reasons. The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think it is still preferable to negotiate and abuse mind to mind.
I approve of more illegal literacy, though there seems to be a suggestion that all we need is more literacy seeking stumps in game to be the change.
I kinda think these ideas need to be addedin conjunction with each other in order to work.
Without extra literacy, limiting Way distance becomes an annoyance more than anything.
Without limiting Way distance, extra literacy is both ICly and OOCly unnecessary.
If you add more literacy, the cons of limiting Way distance become less pronounced, as it'll be possible to deliver messages.
If you limit Way distance, more literacy becomes useful, since something to replace theultra-safe system that is the Way will be needed.
Also, elves.
Something that I was thinking about that I don't know if was mentioned in DMan or anyone else's ideas... I think in combination with the limited regional way the further away someone is the harder it is to contact, even if you have the skill on master. Then once waying say you're in tuluk and the other person is in Luirs, the more stun points it uses to way back and forth with someone that is at the far end of the regional range from where you are. And then also perhaps there would be some interference... Words or letters from words lost in a difficult, faraway communication. Kinda like a scribble that's been sitting for a little bit.
Quote from: bracken on June 26, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
The way however exists for OOC reasons. The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think it is still preferable to negotiate and abuse mind to mind.
The Faithful Lord/Chosen Lady says to the dusty courier, "I need you to ride down to Allanak, or one of the villages outside of Allanak and either find the Byn Sergeant's mind or deliver this message to him in person. I need to speak with him about a contract. Here's some coins for your service."
Problem solved. Suddenly what would have been a instant-cellphone-Way-message has now become an actual mission/task for another player handed out by a Templar or a noble.
I see only gains.
Quote from: Redheart on June 26, 2014, 07:27:54 AM
Something that I was thinking about that I don't know if was mentioned in DMan or anyone else's ideas... I think in combination with the limited regional way the further away someone is the harder it is to contact, even if you have the skill on master. Then once waying say you're in tuluk and the other person is in Luirs, the more stun points it uses to way back and forth with someone that is at the far end of the regional range from where you are. And then also perhaps there would be some interference... Words or letters from words lost in a difficult, faraway communication. Kinda like a scribble that's been sitting for a little bit.
I do believe this has already been changed. If they are further away, it is harder to contact them.
However, once you have mastered The Way (which everyone does by five days play typically if they aren't a social hermit), I don't really ever see any issues finding their minds. It still works almost every time even if they are across the Known.
Quote from: Desertman on June 26, 2014, 10:04:29 AM
Quote from: bracken on June 26, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
The way however exists for OOC reasons. The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think it is still preferable to negotiate and abuse mind to mind.
The Faithful Lord/Chosen Lady says to the dusty courier, "I need you to ride down to Allanak, or one of the villages outside of Allanak and either find the Byn Sergeant's mind or deliver this message to him in person. I need to speak with him about a contract. Here's some coins for your service."
Problem solved. Suddenly what would have been a instant-cellphone-Way-message has now become an actual mission/task for another player handed out by a Templar or a noble.
I see only gains.
So cool.
Quote from: bracken on June 26, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
On the game side, I like the idea of limiting the way, and using messengers to carry messages, either in their heads or on paper. The way does feel too much like a cell phone , sometimes.
The way however exists for OOC reasons. The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think it is still preferable to negotiate and abuse mind to mind.
I approve of more illegal literacy, though there seems to be a suggestion that all we need is more literacy seeking stumps in game to be the change.
It'd open up a legitimate role for messengers (as others have said). They could station themselves in Luir's, making themselves readily available and in range of those of both city states.
Quote from: Molten Heart on June 26, 2014, 10:53:36 AM
Quote from: bracken on June 26, 2014, 04:11:48 AM
On the game side, I like the idea of limiting the way, and using messengers to carry messages, either in their heads or on paper. The way does feel too much like a cell phone , sometimes.
The way however exists for OOC reasons. The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think it is still preferable to negotiate and abuse mind to mind.
I approve of more illegal literacy, though there seems to be a suggestion that all we need is more literacy seeking stumps in game to be the change.
It'd open up a legitimate role for messengers (as others have said). They could station themselves in Luir's, making themselves readily available and in range of those of both city states.
It would open up a lot of things.
Messages would have to be carried between cities. This is a given.
Someone has to guard those messengers. Suddenly there are more escorts happening.
Someone has to guard those spies.
Someone has to find out what happened to that messenger who fell between cities, and of course, get that secret scroll containing all of muh sekrits back!
Someone has to kill that messenger who decided to change sides with my secret messages in hand! Damn him/her!
Someone has to ride out into the distant wilderness where that traitor is rumored to have disappeared to and confirm if they are actually there, or if they are actually dead.
Someone has to be that raider who occasionally rides in from the distant wastes where his camp is at to raid before disappearing back out there, where nobody can find his mind eighty five times a day to confirm if he still alive to keep hunting him.
Someone has to take that aide that changed sides and committed treason out to a remote location and occasionally bring them supplies and keep them hidden until everyone forgets they existed and they won't just be able to use The Way to keep stalking them until their death.
Someone has to do a lot of things and create a lot of roleplay and plotlines that currently just don't exist because we all have super-instant-smartphones-in-our-heads that work throughout the Known without fail.
Indeed, more plot elements can be created.
You know that scene with Gage Gritshaw and Sharlo Kadius torturing that woman? (The log is in the submissions.)
All of that happened apparently because one scroll that was written by someone got intercepted/lost and Sharlo Kadius was trying to get it back/find out what happened to it.
Imagine if messages were constantly sent that way instead of just being "magic insta-Wayed" for everything.
I also recall being paid once to carry a message from a certain merchant House in the north to a noble House in Allanak in regards to happenings during the Copper War.
I have no idea what was in that message. But it was apparently extremely important as the noble House in question started marching out in the next couple of IC days after.
I will never forget that. Even though I didn't really do anything, I played an important part in whatever was going on there and it was great.
Elves, and I didn't read ALL the posts in this thread, but:
instead of an absolute range limit, which is a very sudden and drastic change to game mechanics and how plots would work, how about we change how contact works as so:
When you type contact (name), you begin to form a connection to that person. If you're in the same city, and you have decent skill (advanced or higher, let's say) of contacting, then you make contact immediately and it works like it does now.
But, if you are contacting from Allanak to Tuluk, you initially fail, but if you keep trying, you slowly build up a partially formed connection. This would look to you like you just didn't find them, but unbeknownst to you, the game is keeping track of a "connection strength" and each time you try to contact them you get closer to doing it.
Being able to contact between Allanak and Tuluk is now a lot harder, but not impossible. For a skilled person contacting another, it should take about half of your average person's mental reserve to do this, so like, three to five tries of contacting, before you find them.
Maybe the Way counts on lots of psionically capable minds being in the vicinity of your target to work, or maybe it could work the other way around, where people who are really isolated in the Known are really -easy- to contact. But either way, the ability to contact someone becomes an additive process, that skill contributes to (and maybe certain attribute scores), that psionicists don't need to bother with, and which hides from you the exact nature of where your target is (though if you easily contact them, THEY MIGHT BE CLOSE TO YOU)
At the VERY least, I'd really like to see the order of N/PCs randomized for Way contacts so that you can't just "contact blond" and instantly get the first PC with "blond" in their sdesc. Or, on the flipside, "contact blond", get an NPC, and know that the PC is not online. Time to go rob ol' Blondie's campsite!
One possibility would be to have literacy remain illegal, but have criminals sell it.
Say there's some exile living in the 'rinth willing to teach how to read and write sirihish for the right price. There have been instances of defrocked PC templars fleeing into the 'rinth before, so it's not so far-fetched.
The Guild could provide access to this exile (e.g. safe escort to him). Maybe he moves about and keeps his sdesc hidden so some templar can't just march several half-giant soldiers into the 'rinth and execute him so easily.
Hardened, vicious thugs forsake trading drugs for something even more dangerous: Books.
Quote from: Eyeball on June 26, 2014, 01:11:38 PM
One possibility would be to have literacy remain illegal, but have criminals sell it.
Say there's some exile living in the 'rinth willing to teach how to read and write sirihish for the right price. There have been instances of defrocked PC templars fleeing into the 'rinth before, so it's not so far-fetched.
The Guild could provide access to this exile (e.g. safe escort to him). Maybe he moves about and keeps his sdesc hidden so some templar can't just march several half-giant soldiers into the 'rinth and execute him so easily.
Elves.
A problem I could envision from an OOC playability standpoint is -- It's difficult as it is to get a hold of a PC in game, people like Templars and Nobles and GMH merchants. Imagine how difficult it would be to get the message to your messenger when both of you are online, for the messenger to find/get the message to the PC they need to deliver it to, and then for the Messenger to return the message to you.
It'll just take a lot longer. Which i'm fine with -- As long as everyone makes a pact not to get their undies in a bunch when it takes a RL month to get a message back and forth.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 26, 2014, 01:54:25 PM
A problem I could envision from an OOC playability standpoint is -- It's difficult as it is to get a hold of a PC in game, people like Templars and Nobles and GMH merchants. Imagine how difficult it would be to get the message to your messenger when both of you are online, for the messenger to find/get the message to the PC they need to deliver it to, and then for the Messenger to return the message to you.
It'll just take a lot longer. Which i'm fine with -- As long as everyone makes a pact not to get their undies in a bunch when it takes a RL month to get a message back and forth.
With things like lockers and even the bury code, I think we will manage.
It'd be cool if it was similar to Rome, where literacy is common for things like ledger notes, business signs, and messages, but pontification on society, or treatises on the treatment of elves, basically anything considered political science or social philosophy, would still be outlawed. Making writing those texts oh-so-dangerous and delicious.
Could also make for fun confiscations by soldiers and Templars, if they suspect you are in possession of said writing, or know someone who is.
A lack of literacy in a text-based game does only make a certain amount of sense. While I explained earlier why the Templarate in both Allanak and Tuluk would want to suppress common literacy (It does make sense), perhaps another scenario where it does make sense to have somewhat common literacy could also be put into play.
It seems like most of the player base would enjoy to have some form of more-common literacy in ArmageddonMUD, and it would only serve to enrich the community with writings galore. I suppose I could come around on an idea like this. My vet-brain just can't wrap its head around the concept, because literacy has always been super off-limits illegal, but it's not a bad idea.
Quote from: Redheart on June 26, 2014, 02:03:50 PM
PROPAGANDA
That's a good point, too. Big Brother signs / leaflets galore in Tuluk.
We need a dwarf PC with a focus to spread literacy to the known. (or just any other pc who wants to) He/she can roleplay out making the language, perhaps sirihish, perhaps mirukkim, or something completely unique and unrelated to common words. Then he/she can start spreading it around behind the backs of the higher powers and see if it catches on. If so, then over time, perhaps it can grow more and more common, while any PC who picks it up will need to be cautious of their local templarate finding out. And if not, well, the big folks in charge won this round, and someone can try again later.
Would be much more epic than having it just gradually become a thing behind the scenes, not to mention it being an ongoing things between the commoners and the nobility/highborn, if it remains illegal. Would also be a thing to have the templarate having to find PCs to read such texts for them, since it was completely unregulated by the powers that be.
A lack of literacy is a control method, one that keeps the populace in check. I can't see why the higher powers in the city-states would suddenly give the sheep such a powerful tool. However, if the sheep were to smoothly slip it in between the cracks though, it'd be amazing, and tons of awesome could come from it. Tons of awesome could even come from the failed attempts, mass behandings, blindings, etc to show the people they're making their betters mad.
tldr; I'd support literacy amongst the common, so long as it came with the associated risks literacy would have in a setting where it's forbidden. PCs bringing the change about ICly would make it even more awesome.
(And I very much support Way limiting as well, even if it would throw a wrench in a lot of current things.)
I agree fully with Hicksville Hoochie, and have been doing some not-so-idle thinking on just how to execute her plan since this thread began.
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 11:58:38 AM
Elves, and I didn't read ALL the posts in this thread, but:
instead of an absolute range limit, which is a very sudden and drastic change to game mechanics and how plots would work, how about we change how contact works as so:
When you type contact (name), you begin to form a connection to that person. If you're in the same city, and you have decent skill (advanced or higher, let's say) of contacting, then you make contact immediately and it works like it does now.
But, if you are contacting from Allanak to Tuluk, you initially fail, but if you keep trying, you slowly build up a partially formed connection. This would look to you like you just didn't find them, but unbeknownst to you, the game is keeping track of a "connection strength" and each time you try to contact them you get closer to doing it.
Being able to contact between Allanak and Tuluk is now a lot harder, but not impossible. For a skilled person contacting another, it should take about half of your average person's mental reserve to do this, so like, three to five tries of contacting, before you find them.
Maybe the Way counts on lots of psionically capable minds being in the vicinity of your target to work, or maybe it could work the other way around, where people who are really isolated in the Known are really -easy- to contact. But either way, the ability to contact someone becomes an additive process, that skill contributes to (and maybe certain attribute scores), that psionicists don't need to bother with, and which hides from you the exact nature of where your target is (though if you easily contact them, THEY MIGHT BE CLOSE TO YOU)
This wouldn't change anything from the way things currently work.
Attempting to contact repeatedly until you get it would still be a lot easier and thus the primary choice/default choice to sending messages over actually sending couriers.
This is a perfect example of change that would be nothing but a pain in the ass to players, while adding absolutely nothing to the game for those pains.
Quote from: Desertman on June 26, 2014, 11:44:24 AM
You know that scene with Gage Gritshaw and Sharlo Kadius torturing that woman? (The log is in the submissions.)
All of that happened apparently because one scroll that was written by someone got intercepted/lost and Sharlo Kadius was trying to get it back/find out what happened to it.
Imagine if messages were constantly sent that way instead of just being "magic insta-Wayed" for everything.
My PC (who is referenced briefly in that log) found the corpse of the dude who was carrying it in the streets of Allanak and looted him and, knowing that Seli would run her mouth to either Edom or Gage about the scroll, gave it to her for safekeeping.
It was the only proxy assassination I've ever planned that went off without a hitch.
Reading that log is so goddamn gratifying.
Quote from: Hicksville Hoochie on June 26, 2014, 02:06:38 PM
A lack of literacy is a control method, one that keeps the populace in check. I can't see why the higher powers in the city-states would suddenly give the sheep such a powerful tool.
For unknown reasons the humanoids of the Known, with the exception of psions, suddenly have their ability to use the Way extremely hampered. (I can actually think of recent IC events to help explain this.)
Tektolnes and the Sun King realize without the ability for the common merchants/population to send messages between city states and distant outposts, that the economy of both cities is about to start severely suffering.
The old method of using the Way to instant-transport communications between trading partners ect is a thing of the past.
There has to be trade. The spice must flow.
Literacy is released gradually to the population as a means of making the economy and long-range communication between the traders of the Known that are the lifeblood of society continue to function.
They actually fit pretty well together. They go very well hand in hand this way.
If we assume that most of the economy is run by merchant houses and that there is a degree is literacy already in the merchant houses, your explanation doesn't really work. :(
From what I've observed, Merchant houses seem to sit on their coin, the family members raking in the lion's share, while their hunters are barely scraping enough to afford the goods produced by the house, while also having to bring in the materials. Perhaps I've not been close enough to their dealings to observe, but I don't see many coins flowing into the lower rungs of the player economy through these channels. Mostly, I'd imagine, independents are supposed to handle that end of things, and remain low enough on the radar not to arouse the ire of the houses, who sit on enough coin to bury them hundreds of times over.
Quote from: HavokBlue on June 26, 2014, 02:28:39 PM
If we assume that most of the economy is run by merchant houses and that there is a degree is literacy already in the merchant houses, your explanation doesn't really work. :(
That is if we assume that.
The merchant Houses have a monopoly on the trade of finished goods.
That does not mean they have a monopoly on the logistics surrounding everything that gets them the materials and workforce to sell those finished goods nor does it mean they work only with those that are literate in order to accomplish those tasks.
Well dman. Your critique of my idea is fair.
But now I also feel your idea for the way is just the same. Nothing but a pain in the ass with no improvements to playability.
Why not just suggest to remove the way altogether?
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 03:10:43 PM
Well dman. Your critique of my idea is fair.
But now I also feel your idea for the way is just the same. Nothing but a pain in the ass with no improvements to playability.
Why not just suggest to remove the way altogether?
My idea lets locals in the same vicinity who wouldn't use couriers to communicate anyways still communicate with relative ease. There is no gain in taking that ability away. It would add no potential and only be a pain. Newbies can still find employers. Locals who know each other and want to arrange meetings can do so easily. This is a playability concern.
It is being limited for world-wide-instant-usage for all of the economic and roleplay opportunities such a limitation would present to the game world as a whole as detailed multiple times by myself and other players throughout this thread. Please re-read the thread for details that pertain to that topic, I don't feel like quoting it all again.
We wouldn't remove the Way altogether and instead only limit it in the fashion I have suggested for these reasons.
If it's a choice between no literacy (status quo) and literacy being introduced by Sorcerer King fiat, I'd rather see the status quo maintained. Simply dumping literacy in the game world would be jarring and, frankly, uninspiring. Literacy should be possible, but it should have to be fought for and defended vigorously from the powers that be. If it's simply there, then it's going to get used for mundane or melodramatic nonsense like Is Friday is scared of. Melodrama arises when there's not enough real conflict going around. A struggle between an underground movement for literacy and the templarates would provide real conflict.
It would help if there was some sort of incentive for large portions of commoners to seek out literacy, so limitations on the Way are still worth considering. Commoners have gotten by for 2000 years without being able to write shit down. What would cause them to risk their lives to change that? A focused dwarf may be able to get a writing system developed, but without some sort of incentive (such as the Way becoming less reliable) I don't see why your average commoner would care to use it.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 26, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
If it's a choice between no literacy (status quo) and literacy being introduced by Sorcerer King fiat, I'd rather see the status quo maintained. Simply dumping literacy in the game world would be jarring and, frankly, uninspiring. Literacy should be possible, but it should have to be fought for and defended vigorously from the powers that be. If it's simply there, then it's going to get used for mundane or melodramatic nonsense like Is Friday is scared of. Melodrama arises when there's not enough real conflict going around. A struggle between an underground movement for literacy and the templarates would provide real conflict.
I would prefer to see this implemented by subtle changes and efforts put through on the part of the playerbase.
It would feel a lot more "organic" to the world of Zalanthas. I don't disagree there. That is absolutely the ideal scenario and I would love that.
The problem is that if this was going to happen it probably would have happened in the last 20 years, and it hasn't.
This is the sort of change that almost HAS to be put through on the part of the staff in a wide-scale manner if it is ever going to be put through at all.
First, you have to have a PC that CAN read and write (meaning they have staff approval already for those skills) defect from the organization they are a part of (currently Merchant or Noble Houses or the Templarate) and then successfully against insurmountable odds including Tektolnes and Muk Utep themselves manage to teach a lot of other PC's how to read and write. You would have to teach hundreds over the course of years to read and write for this to actually change in the game world its self on any meaningful scale.
I agree it would be awesome if it did happen organically, but if that is the only way it "can happen", it simply won't happen.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 26, 2014, 03:43:22 PM
It would help if there was some sort of incentive for large portions of commoners to seek out literacy, so limitations on the Way are still worth considering. Commoners have gotten by for 2000 years without being able to write shit down. What would cause them to risk their lives to change that? A focused dwarf may be able to get a writing system developed, but without some sort of incentive (such as the Way becoming less reliable) I don't see why your average commoner would care to use it.
Yeah, the Way becoming more limited would be a good gateway to IC'ly explaining widespread literacy as a whole becoming a necessity.
Calavish is suppose to be a language based on trade with rudimentary wording. As long as this standard was maintained in writings, and thus limited in conveyance of detailed information, I could see the Kings allowing open use of it, as the Way becamebegins to fade in range.
Quote from: Desertman on June 26, 2014, 11:01:33 AM
It would open up a lot of things.
Messages would have to be carried between cities. This is a given.
Someone has to guard those messengers. Suddenly there are more escorts happening.
Someone has to guard those spies.
Someone has to find out what happened to that messenger who fell between cities, and of course, get that secret scroll containing all of muh sekrits back!
Someone has to kill that messenger who decided to change sides with my secret messages in hand! Damn him/her!
Someone has to ride out into the distant wilderness where that traitor is rumored to have disappeared to and confirm if they are actually there, or if they are actually dead.
Someone has to be that raider who occasionally rides in from the distant wastes where his camp is at to raid before disappearing back out there, where nobody can find his mind eighty five times a day to confirm if he still alive to keep hunting him.
Someone has to take that aide that changed sides and committed treason out to a remote location and occasionally bring them supplies and keep them hidden until everyone forgets they existed and they won't just be able to use The Way to keep stalking them until their death.
Someone has to do a lot of things and create a lot of roleplay and plotlines that currently just don't exist because we all have super-instant-smartphones-in-our-heads that work throughout the Known without fail.
What you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages. The isolation would become harrowing, we'd feel like we were playing different games when we play in different cities, and we'd be more fractured as a playerbase. The staff may try to protect the existing power structures with things like more spawned in NPC guards, so that frequent messaging is possible, but then people would complain that they are fighting NPCs all the time and the current power structures (houses, nobles) will just be getting imm-buffed to keep existing.
Quote from: Bracken
On the game side, I like the idea of limiting the way, and using messengers to carry messages, either in their heads or on paper. The way does feel too much like a cell phone , sometimes.
The way however exists for OOC reasons. The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think it is still preferable to negotiate and abuse mind to mind.
I approve of more illegal literacy, though there seems to be a suggestion that all we need is more literacy seeking stumps in game to be the change.
I agree with you. But, instead of just saying OOC reasons and playable, let's explore that.
The Way creates a "deus ex machina" that gets plots moving. The inhuman coordination that people achieve in Zalanthas is a lot like what we enjoy with cell phones, sure. But the effect on the setting is multi-level, complex, and is what makes the setting itself unique. The templars have God-king given powers that have the same effect, but the Way is how every underling (PC) can participate in a taste of that "godliness." They can communicate with their templars or other such powerful allies instantly, from anywhere, reliably... the work of assassinating someone is now a huge task, the work of sneaking anything by someone is huge... the time window you have between catching a spy and killing them without the act being found is seconds. That's a huge component of how plots become interesting in Armageddon, because this power makes things happen.
The amount of risk in carrying a message is huge, because in order for there to be any risk at all in delivering anything, it has to be huge equally for all travellers. That means that a tremendous amount of mundane communication will be deemed too dangerous to have.. furthering the isolation.
We know a lot of people play this game for social reasons. If you cut off that mundane chatter, the "gossip between aides" as is Friday puts it, then I guarantee you people will be unhappy with the change.
When trying to re-assign people to one or the other garrison, for example, there will be a much different take on that. People will bitch.
Anyway, there's a LOT of ways that this idea sucks ass. So, sorry, metekillot, D-man, there are reasons not to do this to the Way.
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
What you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages.
Except I'm not. You are looking at this from a "real world" perspective. This isn't the equivalent of the telephone going away for the Earth and humans suddenly relying on paper messages. It isn't comparable and your assessment is incorrect in every way, in my opinion. Also, Zalanthas is already in the "stone age", in a lot of ways.
Quote from: Bracken on June 26, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
On the game side, I like the idea of limiting the way, and using messengers to carry messages, either in their heads or on paper. The way does feel too much like a cell phone , sometimes.
I agree.
Quote from: Bracken on June 26, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
The way however exists for OOC reasons. The reality is, we do need to speed things up to make it playable. The nightmare that comes to mind is trying to organize a Byn contract when the clients are the other side of the Known. Though this is possible to do through PMs, I think it is still preferable to negotiate and abuse mind to mind.
I have already covered this in a pervious post.
Quote from: Bracken on June 26, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
I approve of more illegal literacy, though there seems to be a suggestion that all we need is more literacy seeking stumps in game to be the change.
I don't disagree with this idea, even though this already exists and is possible in game. What you are proposing here is no proposal at all except, "Keep it how it is.".
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
I agree with you. But, instead of just saying OOC reasons and playable, let's explore that.
The Way creates a "deus ex machina" that gets plots moving. The inhuman coordination that people achieve in Zalanthas is a lot like what we enjoy with cell phones, sure. But the effect on the setting is multi-level, complex, and is what makes the setting itself unique. The templars have God-king given powers that have the same effect, but the Way is how every underling (PC) can participate in a taste of that "godliness." They can communicate with their templars or other such powerful allies instantly, from anywhere, reliably... the work of assassinating someone is now a huge task, the work of sneaking anything by someone is huge... the time window you have between catching a spy and killing them without the act being found is seconds. That's a huge component of how plots become interesting in Armageddon, because this power makes things happen.
The amount of risk in carrying a message is huge, because in order for there to be any risk at all in delivering anything, it has to be huge equally for all travellers. That means that a tremendous amount of mundane communication will be deemed too dangerous to have.. furthering the isolation.
We know a lot of people play this game for social reasons. If you cut off that mundane chatter, the "gossip between aides" as is Friday puts it, then I guarantee you people will be unhappy with the change.
When trying to re-assign people to one or the other garrison, for example, there will be a much different take on that. People will bitch.
Anyway, there's a LOT of ways that this idea sucks ass. So, sorry, metekillot, D-man, there are reasons not to do this to the Way.
All of your points here have already been covered in the thread. All I can say is I have already addressed your concerns previously and I believe you are wrong in every way. I will agree to disagree with you.
meh. you were quoting bracken there, not me, so uh, yeah, be careful with your quotes.
and yeah, I maintain that there are a dozen or more reasons this idea sucks ass, so I guess we do have to agree to disagree.
ehh.. cause I pagerolled, I will appease the pageroll gods with more argument.
So. Let's, for the sake of argument, say your idea is done. Great. Now we have a new hurdle. Trying to figure out who is Wayable right now, and who isn't.
So, if your idea were to be implemented... which I hope it won't be, because I still think it sucks for the vast majority of potential uses... then it necessitates some partner skills to be made.
If our mutual goal is to increase plot intrigue without a playability detriment, we need new things to add back some playability we lose... for no real reason.
skill idea: sense. use sense to detect everybody you've wayed previously, who is "in range" of your waying. By hitting sense..
>sense
You suffer from use of the Way.
...you feel the presence of the tall, muscular man.
...you feel the presence of the svelte, aureate-haired man.
...you sense three other presences.
Based on skill, you get more or less, etc.
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 04:48:33 PM
meh. you were quoting bracken there, not me, so uh, yeah, be careful with your quotes.
and yeah, I maintain that there are a dozen or more reasons this idea sucks ass, so I guess we do have to agree to disagree.
Oops, my mistake on the quotes. Fixed.
Agreed to disagree with your assessment in terms of "sucking ass".
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 04:48:33 PM
So, if your idea were to be implemented... which I hope it won't be, because I still think it sucks for the vast majority of potential uses... then it necessitates some partner skills to be made.
If our mutual goal is to increase plot intrigue without a playability detriment, we need new things to add back some playability we lose... for no real reason.
skill idea: sense. use sense to detect everybody you've wayed previously, who is "in range" of your waying. By hitting sense..
>sense
You suffer from use of the Way.
...you feel the presence of the tall, muscular man.
...you feel the presence of the svelte, aureate-haired man.
...you sense three other presences.
Based on skill, you get more or less, etc.
While I appreciate your attempt at an addition to my idea for improvement purposes...I just don't see any reason why this would be needed. It seems pointless.
Would be a pretty cool skill for psions.
QuoteWhat you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages.
Because we all remember living stateless in caves and working with stone tools until Steve Jobs invented the iPhone.
D-Man's proposing a limiting of the range of the Way. Not it's wholesale removal. If you could still use the Way within a reasonable distance from your home turf, I don't see how Zalanthas' power structures are going to collapse. Cross-Known communication via the Way is already spotty due to interception risks; I think there might be a limit on how far the Way can go already.
Most clans are already centered around small geographical areas. Tribal lands, a single City State, a single district in that City state, etc. Only the merchant houses routinely conduct cross-Known business, and they probably have the easiest time of moving about of anyone. When was the last time you had a chat with someone on the other side of the Known? Unless you're doing some torrid cross-border affair between Lord Templar Tressylashes and Faithful Lord Chiseledbutt, being limited to communicating with people on your half of the Known is not going to be a huge blocker.
The Way also squashes a great many plots, probably as many as it "facilitates." This was especially true in the north, and may still be to a lesser extent.
pointless?
your idea is that you can't way someone across the Known but can Way someone near you.
If your idea was done cold, then you wouldn't know who was wayable and who not until you try to way them.
scenario:
Quote
>think Oh gee, I'm the grebber Amos. I work for four people. I wonder who's around right now...
>contact talia
nope.. maybe my skill sucks, or maybe they're in tuluk... i dunno..
>contact amosette
nope... huh, maybe she went to luir's, I dunno...
>contact talia
YAY! Talia is here...
(talia moves out of range, breaking the connection)
Oh damn. Okay, who else..
>contact yolo.the.dwarf
Nope... maybe he's out hunting already, damn.
yeah, sucks. Here's alternate scenario.
Quote
>think I'm Amos, da badest, best grebber in the south. Who's got the balls to be southside lately?
>sense
..You feel the presence of Talia's mind.
>think Ah, just Talia. I knew she had balls.
>contact talia
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 04:59:30 PM
pointless?
your idea is that you can't way someone across the Known but can Way someone near you.
If your idea was done cold, then you wouldn't know who was wayable and who not until you try to way them.
scenario:
Quote
>think Oh gee, I'm the grebber Amos. I work for four people. I wonder who's around right now...
>contact talia
nope.. maybe my skill sucks, or maybe they're in tuluk... i dunno..
>contact amosette
nope... huh, maybe she went to luir's, I dunno...
>contact talia
YAY! Talia is here...
(talia moves out of range, breaking the connection)
Oh damn. Okay, who else..
>contact yolo.the.dwarf
Nope... maybe he's out hunting already, damn.
yeah, sucks. Here's alternate scenario.
Quote
>think I'm Amos, da badest, best grebber in the south. Who's got the balls to be southside lately?
>sense
..You feel the presence of Talia's mind.
>think Ah, just Talia. I knew she had balls.
>contact talia
You could also just do what you do now.
"Contact Talia", and if she isn't online, or is too far away (for the new scenario), you won't be able to find her mind.
Getting a list of everyone online around you not only seems pointless, it seems like it would be abused a ridiculous amount constantly.
That sounds horrible.
Why not just ask for a, "Who Allanak" command that shows you everyone online in Allanak? It would do the same thing.
Game breaking.
The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?
I feel like which language the "widespread literacy" is based in makes a huge difference. If it's sirihish, you're taking away a major distinction between the high-blooded and commoners. But any other language would be really difficult to justify.
It's interesting to think about but I don't want a fundamental change to the game world on this level.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 26, 2014, 04:58:09 PM
QuoteWhat you are describing is the eventual collapse of existing power structures, and a true return of Zalanthas to the "stone age," as people struggle to coordinate efforts to maintain a multi-city civilization with shitty ass paper messages.
Because we all remember living stateless in caves and working with stone tools until Steve Jobs invented the iPhone.
D-Man's proposing a limiting of the range of the Way. Not it's wholesale removal. If you could still use the Way within a reasonable distance from your home turf, I don't see how Zalanthas' power structures are going to collapse. Cross-Known communication via the Way is already spotty due to interception risks; I think there might be a limit on how far the Way can go already.
Most clans are already centered around small geographical areas. Tribal lands, a single City State, a single district in that City state, etc. Only the merchant houses routinely conduct cross-Known business, and they probably have the easiest time of moving about of anyone. When was the last time you had a chat with someone on the other side of the Known? Unless you're doing some torrid cross-border affair between Lord Templar Tressylashes and Faithful Lord Chiseledbutt, being limited to communicating with people on your half of the Known is not going to be a huge blocker.
The Way also squashes a great many plots, probably as many as it "facilitates." This was especially true in the north, and may still be to a lesser extent.
Alright, let's just do it how you guys want, and see how "fun" it becomes, all while shitting on the original setting and changing it... irreversibly, unless we can all suspend our disbelief for it.. especially considering how this idea is being suggested (rudely).
The reason I say this is that you're describing some uses and hypotheticals but there are many others. I have the strong feeling that this change would strongly suit your playing styles, but in my case, I just see it being a huge bitch.
You want more examples. here's one, from a PC now dead for over a year. I never would have been able to, for example, assassinate this PC once in what was one of my favorite scenes of all time. basically, I was in city/village X, while my boss was in city Y. the victim and my PC were on a trip for the boss. The victim began saying shit about the boss that was really offensive to my PC. I contacted "the boss" over the way, and discussed how it made my feel. It was a BACK AND FOURTH sharing of information, and by the end of about 20 way messages between us, the decision was clear. This person, the victim, had to die. They were still an employee of the boss at the time. My PC gave hints about his possible intent many times. My PC communicated simeultaneously with the victim and the boss the whole time.
Then, my PC went out with the victim into the desert. Not long after, my PC killed them. No witnesses, efficient, and possible, all thanks to the Way between cities.
So, there's one. Of, like I said, dozens, or many dozens, of reasons why this idea sucks ass.
Quote from: Patuk on June 26, 2014, 05:09:17 PM
The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?
Oh, you know, conspire to kill someone with a bone sword. It happens, you know.
Okay, I'm just going to say it. The Way has allowed me to kill, or help kill, a lot of PCs, I'm not going to put a number down but it's many of them, and if it were changed, many of those kills would have happened, because
discussions that cross distances instantly was integral to most of them (but not all, I concede that point).
So, I dunno how the community feels about dying, but according to Nyr's statistics, they really enjoy it (people stick around in the game longer if they get killed with their first PC). So, I think I have a guess... about how a lot of the community would feel about this idea. Regarding the Way.
I am not arguing against the literacy ideas in this thread, btw.
edit: I fixed the bolded part to read what I meant to write. Not talking about teleportation.. ::)
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 05:11:22 PM
Quote from: Patuk on June 26, 2014, 05:09:17 PM
The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?
Oh, you know, conspire to kill someone with a bone sword. It happens, you know.
Okay, I'm just going to say it. The Way has allowed me to kill, or help kill, a lot of PCs, I'm not going to put a number down but it's many of them, and if it were changed, many of those kills would have happened, because crossing distances instantly was integral to most of them (but not all, I concede that point).
So, I dunno how the community feels about dying, but according to Nyr's statistics, they really enjoy it (people stick around in the game longer if they get killed with their first PC). So, I think I have a guess.
So, you use the Way to kill people regularly by instant-transfer of information and then crossing huge distances instantly to do it.
This is not helping your argument.
This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly. It wouldn't keep you from spamming from Allanak to Redstorm or the Salt Flats or the Rinth or anywhere in the southern hemisphere to kill people.
So, if your only argument is it keeps you from spamming instantly across the Known to kill people over vast distances....ouch...all I can say to that is, thanks for helping my idea.
If you hadn't been able to use the Way to devise this plan on the fly, Harmless, what would be stopping you from going to your boss, informing him of this other guy's insults, and working out a plan to kill him there? Would that just have been too slow for you?
Nice question badskeelz. It's nice to have a reply to my post that tries to see things from my perspective.
Maybe it would have been too slow. Maybe it never would have happened. Maybe it would have been fine to arrange it later.
But maybe, maybe the angry mood at the time of my PC meant that if that discussion didn't happen right -then-, at the peak of his barbaric, murderous rage, then the kill never would have happened, because by the time he got back to the boss, he would have been spiced out of his mind, he would have forgotten to bring it up, etc.
All I can tell you is what did happen. That PC got killed, and they never saw it coming. It was brutal. It was efficient. It was also betrayal, and it all happened in the space of two scenes.
I liked it. I don't want to not be able to do that.
Quote from: Desertman on June 26, 2014, 05:15:08 PM
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 05:11:22 PM
Quote from: Patuk on June 26, 2014, 05:09:17 PM
The fuck are you going to do with someone that far away, anyway?
Oh, you know, conspire to kill someone with a bone sword. It happens, you know.
Okay, I'm just going to say it. The Way has allowed me to kill, or help kill, a lot of PCs, I'm not going to put a number down but it's many of them, and if it were changed, many of those kills would have happened, because crossing distances instantly was integral to most of them (but not all, I concede that point).
So, I dunno how the community feels about dying, but according to Nyr's statistics, they really enjoy it (people stick around in the game longer if they get killed with their first PC). So, I think I have a guess.
So, you use the Way to kill people regularly by instant-transfer of information and then crossing huge distances instantly to do it.
This is not helping your argument.
This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly. It wouldn't keep you from spamming from Allanak to Redstorm or the Salt Flats or the Rinth or anywhere in the southern hemisphere to kill people.
So, if your only argument is it keeps you from spamming instantly across the Known to kill people over vast distances....ouch...all I can say to that is, thanks for helping my idea.
The bolded section is wrong. I would use the way to instant transfer information,
have a discussion, and then decide to kill someone
right in front of me, if you read my little vignette.
Okay, so, I -could- keep going on about times and ways I've used the Way to kill people, but some is more recent and more remote ideas are fuzzy. All I know is the Way is awesome and I use it to keep killing you guys...
Quote
This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly.
Oh, so the idea is basically block comms between Allanak and Tuluk. That wasn't iterated so clearly to me.
yeah, go ahead and do that. That, I agree with, because I never needed to do -that- to kill people. You win! CONGRATS!! I AGREE WITH YOU OH MY GOD can we go back to mudsexing now :-*
Stop being an asshole.
I love you MeTekillot.
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 05:28:19 PM
Oh, so the idea is basically block comms between Allanak and Tuluk. That wasn't iterated so clearly to me.
yeah, go ahead and do that. That, I agree with, because I never needed to do -that- to kill people. You win! CONGRATS!! I AGREE WITH YOU OH MY GOD can we go back to mudsexing now :-*
It's in the very first post.......It is the only idea I have..........
Quote from: Desertman on June 25, 2014, 02:14:06 PM
The Way:
Someone in Allanak can contact most everyone in Allanak and in the deserts surrounding Allanak. Maybe as far as Redstorm but not quiet as far as Luir's.
Someone in Tuluk could contact everyone Tuluk and the surrounding scrub/forests near Tuluk, but not quite all of the way to Luir's.
Either way, I'm glad we agree. I don't want to kill your comms locally. Just "over huge distances".
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 26, 2014, 05:31:25 PM
Stop being an asshole.
I don't feel like I'm being any douchier than desertman is, and he's who I'm primarily talking to here, not you.
also:
Quote from: Private_Eightball
Don't get between a dog and his meat numerous PKs facilitated over the Way.
Quote from: Desertman on June 25, 2014, 02:14:06 PM
Someone in Allanak can contact most everyone in Allanak and in the deserts surrounding Allanak. Maybe as far as Redstorm but not quiet as far as Luir's.
Someone in Tuluk could contact everyone Tuluk and the surrounding scrub/forests near Tuluk, but not quite all of the way to Luir's.
does not equal:
Quote from: Desertman on June 26, 2014, 05:15:08 PM
This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly.
Quote from: Harmless on June 26, 2014, 05:36:19 PM
Quote from: Desertman on June 25, 2014, 02:14:06 PM
Someone in Allanak can contact most everyone in Allanak and in the deserts surrounding Allanak. Maybe as far as Redstorm but not quiet as far as Luir's.
Someone in Tuluk could contact everyone Tuluk and the surrounding scrub/forests near Tuluk, but not quite all of the way to Luir's.
does not equal:
Quote from: Desertman on June 26, 2014, 05:15:08 PM
This new idea would only keep you from spamming from Allanak to Tuluk to kill people instantly.
Yes it does.
okay.
/me leaves the thread but not before politely thanking everyone.
Anyways.
To everyone else who is still here and having a discussion.
I just had another idea. This would also let us do things like intercept written bounties on people (which could create some awesome plotlines), or post written bounties on people (kind of like the "Old West"). That sort of thing. That would be pretty awesome in my opinion instead of just seeing your basic "Kill this guy" post on the IG boards.
I just had a funny thought about an artist making a living in game as a sketch artist for criminals as described by their victims for wanted posters. I don't think I would want to necessarily see that, it just made me chuckle to think about it.
It would also be kind of neat to be able to give written orders to people for materials/gear etc...Not because we "need" that, it would just add some flavor to things.
Limiting the distance of the Way is just one possibility of "nerfing" it for purposes of making literacy actually worthwhile.
Another approach would be to make the Way less secure. This would have a big impact on elite roles, but might also give incentive to commoner groups who have something to hide.
Quote from: QuillDipper on June 26, 2014, 12:16:48 AM
It'd be kind of hilarious if sometimes you just kind of picked up other people's Way messages, like a radio.
I think this is worth discussing. What if you got messages without an identifier of who was sending them? Something like:
The foreign thought passes through your mind,
"Tonight we kill Lord Fancypants."
This keeps the receiver in some doubt. Who was that from, and who was it going to? More importantly, there will always be the risk for the sender of what MIGHT be heard over the Way, and by whom. This would encourage increased use of notes and couriers to pass the really sensitive messages along.
Criminal and subversive groups would thus have incentive to learn how to write, lest they inadvertently tip off a templar about next week's heist.
It includes more people in plots when the information brokers are corrupt, and Wylon the Wily Wayman who functions within a group of PCs who have decided to set up smallish camps between the cities to pass semi-instant Way messages is now passing on some of that clandestine plotting info to other people who would otherwise be left in the dark and unincluded.
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 26, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
It includes more people in plots when the information brokers are corrupt, and Wylon the Wily Wayman who functions within a group of PCs who have decided to set up smallish camps between the cities to pass semi-instant Way messages is now passing on some of that clandestine plotting info to other people who would otherwise be left in the dark and unincluded.
Yup, that is another awesome possibility that the current system doesn't let us explore/experience.
Good one.
There's already enough reading in this game. Do we really want more?
Quote from: TheWanderer on June 26, 2014, 05:55:58 PM
There's already enough reading in this game. Do we really want more?
get out
Quote from: TheWanderer on June 26, 2014, 05:55:58 PM
There's already enough reading in this game. Do we really want more?
Cunning.
Well played Sir.
Quote from: MeTekillot on June 26, 2014, 05:48:20 PM
It includes more people in plots when the information brokers are corrupt, and Wylon the Wily Wayman who functions within a group of PCs who have decided to set up smallish camps between the cities to pass semi-instant Way messages is now passing on some of that clandestine plotting info to other people who would otherwise be left in the dark and unincluded.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 26, 2014, 05:47:31 PM
Limiting the distance of the Way is just one possibility of "nerfing" it for purposes of making literacy actually worthwhile.
Another approach would be to make the Way less secure. This would have a big impact on elite roles, but might also give incentive to commoner groups who have something to hide.
Quote from: QuillDipper on June 26, 2014, 12:16:48 AM
It'd be kind of hilarious if sometimes you just kind of picked up other people's Way messages, like a radio.
I think this is worth discussing. What if you got messages without an identifier of who was sending them? Something like:
The foreign thought passes through your mind,
"Tonight we kill Lord Fancypants."
This keeps the receiver in some doubt. Who was that from, and who was it going to? More importantly, there will always be the risk for the sender of what MIGHT be heard over the Way, and by whom. This would encourage increased use of notes and couriers to pass the really sensitive messages along.
Criminal and subversive groups would thus have incentive to learn how to write, lest they inadvertently tip off a templar about next week's heist.
These are some really good ideas. To be clear, there is already semi-illegal literacy in game. Cavilish is a language generally used by GMH personnel and traders, and certain members of those circles are versed in the symbols related to that language. But literacy is still illegal for them, much like spice is illegal in Allanak, even for those persons who openly smoke it. It's a loose rule, designed to be enforced when one has to to get what they want.
If there were a language to be widespread and legalized, I think it would be Cavilish, since it is is already in use amongst common blood.
Overall, I really love these ideas, and I would love to see literacy become legal in some form.
I agree that literacy would be a really fun way to drive plots forward.
I also agree with the idea that it should not be terribly widespread. I am cool with continuing legal restrictions on literacy while making it more available to scribes in the employ of the city-states, GMHs, and subversive criminal types.
I would also be all right with lifting the legal restriction on literacy, but leaving it nonetheless extremely uncommon among commoners, with the possible exception of GMH families.
I think an extended subguild with literacy would be a great idea and would open up another path of coded, non-combative employment, no matter which scenario happens.
As per the Way, I love the idea of geographically restricting its use (for non-psionics, of course) for RP reasons. I had an Allanaki character who was in love with another PC that had to travel up to Luir's. Even though the lover was physically absent, my PC could still communicate with him almost like he was in the room. Even though this was good for interaction and good for my PC, it would have made the geographical distance more of an issue if he knew he couldn't Way him. Right now, psionic communication connects everyone in the world. It would be nice to see something that reinforces that sense of distance a little more.
That said, as others have pointed out, the Way is kind of an OOC necessity. So while I would personally cast my vote in favor of that particular change to the Way, I 100% understand why people would be against it. It's hard for me to picture the OOC and playability consequences of Way restriction right now, but I have a feeling they could get really annoying. I can see both sides here.
The proposed idea of giving average Joes a small chance to "overhear" the Way could also work for making literacy more viable, and I think it might be an even better idea as far as opening doors for literacy is concerned, as it would encourage the use of written messages even within the same region. I love the example given of a "foreign thought" passing through your mind, without any suggestion of where it came from. I think that even if the idea of geographical boundaries to the range of the Way ends up being canned, restricting these "overheard thoughts" by geography would be necessary.
Yeah I had this thought last night actually.
If you restrict the Way to have more geographic limitations, suddenly Zalanthas becomes A LOT bigger.
Which in my opinion is a good thing. The actual size doesn't increase of course, but the perceptions of the players and even the characters about the size of the world and the feel of the world suddenly increases.
Now, when a character says, "I'm going to another city for a while." and you are close to them, it doesn't mean a lot.
You know you still have SmartPhone instant access contact with them whenever you want it.
With this change, when a character says, "I'm going away for a while. I'm going to be in Tuluk for a couple of months.", that is actually going to MEAN something. You won't know if they are safe, what they are up to, if they are cheating on you WITH ELVES! WHO KNOWS! OH THE DRAMA! OH THE WORRY! OH THE HEARTACHING!
To bring it full circle, if you could write, you could actually write each other letters to stay, "Up to date.", which is just kind of cool.
Quote from: Desertman on June 27, 2014, 11:25:51 AM
Yeah I had this thought last night actually.
If you restrict the Way to have more geographic limitations, suddenly Zalanthas becomes A LOT bigger.
Which in my opinion is a good thing. The actual size doesn't increase of course, but the perceptions of the players and even the characters about the size of the world and the feel of the world suddenly increases.
Just to be rhetorical, but how?
Quote from: Reiloth on June 27, 2014, 11:36:27 AM
Quote from: Desertman on June 27, 2014, 11:25:51 AM
Yeah I had this thought last night actually.
If you restrict the Way to have more geographic limitations, suddenly Zalanthas becomes A LOT bigger.
Which in my opinion is a good thing. The actual size doesn't increase of course, but the perceptions of the players and even the characters about the size of the world and the feel of the world suddenly increases.
Just to be rhetorical, but how?
Sorry, I was editing my post as you posted this apparently.
I also really want to write one of these letters to someone's mate.
"Dear Talia,
It is with a heavy heart that I inform you that your mate, Amos, has fallen in combat on the northern grasslands. He was eaten by a pack of angry fearless ritikki. You should know he died fighting....screaming in agony...but fighting.
It was an honor to serve as his Salarri Sergeant. I know he loved you dearly. If there is anything I can do, please write back and let me know.
Your Friend, Sergeant Swanky Sharpsword."
Heh, I can see a lot of these sorts of letters travelling about the Known. It would be awesome to send and receive letters.
It would be awesome to read other people's letters if you intercepted them/stole them/stumbled upon them.
Just so much awesome to be had.
And so much better than/intriguing than, "Contact Talia", "Just letting you know, Amos just died right now. I'm standing over his body. Sorry.".
The erdlu express.
Drawling, his brown leather duster blowing in the eastern wind, the rangy, mustached man says to you, in sirihish:
"Ah reckon Ah kin git yur scroll there by sundown, sure. That'll be twenny-five sid, fella."
Accepting your roll up scroll, the rangy, mustached man tucks it in his battered canvas satchel bag.
The rangy, mustached man tips his wide-brimmed, brown leather hat to you and sets one of his snake-skin, chitin-toed boots in the stirrup of a sleek, grey-scaled erdlue's saddle.
Cracking his back as he settles himself atop a sleek, grey-scaled erdlu, the rangy, mustached man says to you, in sirihish:
"Once Ah drop yur package off, Ah'll let my gurl in Luir's know so she kin update ya, fella. Ah thank ya fer using tha Express."
A sleek, grey-scaled erdlue runs east, carrying the rangy, mustached man on her back.
It'd be cool to have literacy just to incorporate poor grammar and spelling for flavor.
I would feel a bit bad for the guy who got known throughout the world as, "The messenger.".
Every raider in the world would want to kill that guy just get his fat "knowledge loots".
It's my idea to put this in, and I want to kill the guy and get his scrolls already just to read them.
Such interesting. Much want to know.
It'd be funny if the Byn suddenly became the Postal Service.
"Yeah, we'll go into the sewer and kill that sewer horror, Lord Templar Fancypants. What? You also want this letter delivered to your great Aunt? Um...Sure, that'll be two hundred 'sid extra."
It would certainly offer them more contracts, and give them even more to do.
No but seriously, there is no postal service, so how would these letters be delivered? Even inter-city, you would need some sort of organization that handles letter intake and output.
You could have Nenyuk capitalize on it -- They charge for letters when you drop them off, and charge people when they pick them up. So they just make money.
The ... Byn. You just suggested it.
Oh! Shit!
That's even better!!!
Wait. You know Nenyuk used to be a playable clan!
They could be so again, with PCs focusing on letter delivery!
I like what I'm reading on this page. We could end up with a Zalanthan Hero and Leander story.
"A poor sharp from the alleyways of the 'rinth, Hush met his beloved Claw when she met him while smuggling spice for Kurac in his home turf. The thought of her keeping him awake at night and making him long for her touch again ended up driving him from his hime and out of the merchant's gate. Every day from then on, Hush ran past raptors, through canyons and over cliffs in order to be with his lover in Luir's, not stopping along the way once, made to run back again at the end of every night, risking her sergeant's ire. One fateful Detal day he longed for her more than ever, taking off across the desert once more, stirring up great clouds of dust as he went. Alas, Whira conspired with the sand that day, and no amount of love could save him as he lost his way, the man finding his end through a treacherous gith ambush. Already worried because of her lover's absence, Claw's darkest suspicions were all but confirmed as she went on patrol with her unit, finding her late lover's head gruesomely planted atop a crude pike. It was the last thing Kurac ever saw of her, the elf drawing her blade and charging right into gith lands."
Yeah, I just can't see the Byn being ICly interested in something like that.
Also, simple printing presses could be invented and used, like what they used in Tibet and Japan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodblock_printing
It could be a major perk in clans as well, and finally give reason and meaning to a life-oath. Reach the rank of Corporal or Sergeant and sign a life-oath, and we'll teach you how to read and write to keep track of all those tricky ledgers. And so you can write sad poetry when you are drunk at 3AM. But seriously, we'll just turn you over to the Templarate if you teach this to anyone. And hell, we might turn you over to the Templarate if you're a little shit, and just say that you tried to teach other people.
Interesting bargaining chip for the employee, and the employer.
Nooooo printing presses. No. Please don't. If not because Zalanthas is a low technology world, then because it'd make writing much less useful of a skill.
Yeh, I'd pass on the printing press. But the teaching of writing to life-sworn employees as an excellent idea.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 27, 2014, 12:14:56 PM
Yeah, I just can't see the Byn being ICly interested in something like that.
The Byn should be willing to do just about anything if the coin is right.
I remain leery of literacy becoming widespread
and legalized. I think a long period of growing literacy among commoners, with the templarates trying their damndest to combat it, would allow for more fun. It might even never make it in to the mainstream if it remains a niche tool.
Heh, just a thought, I always had trouble suspending disbelief that every clan Quarter Master was either a Literate trained Noble or Merchant, or blessed with the most amazing memory every.
Never got around to ask exactly how military clans, and mercenary clans do record keeping.
How do they track names? Doodles of their faces?
I think a growing period of literacy among PC commoners, with the PC templarates trying to combat it, would lead to literacy not growing at all, myself, particularly at a PC level.
I think that back-stage antics are the best way to introduce such a thing as this, and while you could include PCs in the advent of such a thing, I feel like tying the world's shoestrings to the PC's shoes, in this case, isn't the best idea.
Quote from: rodic on June 27, 2014, 12:23:36 PM
Heh, just a thought, I always had trouble suspending disbelief that every clan Quarter Master was either a Literate trained Noble or Merchant, or blessed with the most amazing memory every.
Never got around to ask exactly how military clans, and mercenary clans do record keeping.
How do they track names? Doodles of their faces?
Any clan of significant size (including the military clans) can be assumed to have a number of virtual scribes and bookkeepers who keep the records up to date.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 12:23:45 PM
I think a growing period of literacy among PC commoners, with the PC templarates trying to combat it, would lead to literacy not growing at all, myself, particularly at a PC level.
I think that back-stage antics are the best way to introduce such a thing as this, and while you could include PCs in the advent of such a thing, I feel like tying the world's shoestrings to the PC's shoes, in this case, isn't the best idea.
If you try to do anything that's going to require the staff to do most of the heavy lifting, you're better off not trying at all. Unless there's someone on staff who thinks it's worth putting their limited time and resources towards, it's not going to happen.
The only way I would be okay with Nenyuk being the "postal service" of the Known was if it was opened to players once again and the PCs, not NPCs, were the ones doing the delivery and money handling. Otherwise, it would take out a large portion of what this idea aims to do: get more PCs involved, have more plots, etc.
It seems sort of convoluted if this is to lead to more IC plots or OOC gratification.
The point of literacy should be the letters, not the delivery means/pickup means. People could hire personal couriers, if it was sensitive information they did not trust Nenyuk to open/read themselves. Otherwise, it is the letter/writing of the letter that becomes important, not the delivery of said mail/letter.
If automated caravans happened (I think that was being discussed in 2.0), mail-service Nenyuki could be on board with the mail bound for its final destination. In that way, mail could be stolen, the courier could be killed during a raid, etc.
I don't see functionary roles like this as being fun (I'm the mail man!) It's sort of like a GMH sponsored-role without any of the power.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 27, 2014, 12:26:51 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 12:23:45 PM
I think a growing period of literacy among PC commoners, with the PC templarates trying to combat it, would lead to literacy not growing at all, myself, particularly at a PC level.
I think that back-stage antics are the best way to introduce such a thing as this, and while you could include PCs in the advent of such a thing, I feel like tying the world's shoestrings to the PC's shoes, in this case, isn't the best idea.
If you try to do anything that's going to require the staff to do most of the heavy lifting, you're better off not trying at all. Unless there's someone on staff who thinks it's worth putting their limited time and resources towards, it's not going to happen.
I don't think this would require that much staff time at all, aside from a simple change of rules. There's no coding required - aside from perhaps a scribe sub-guild. All that would be happening from staff side is rumors about the world's advancement, and eventual change in regulations.
Now, the Way ... yes, staff would have to get on board with that and do the heavy lifting.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 27, 2014, 12:40:11 PM
It seems sort of convoluted if this is to lead to more IC plots or OOC gratification.
The point of literacy should be the letters, not the delivery means/pickup means. People could hire personal couriers, if it was sensitive information they did not trust Nenyuk to open/read themselves. Otherwise, it is the letter/writing of the letter that becomes important, not the delivery of said mail/letter.
If automated caravans happened (I think that was being discussed in 2.0), mail-service Nenyuki could be on board with the mail bound for its final destination. In that way, mail could be stolen, the courier could be killed during a raid, etc.
I don't see functionary roles like this as being fun (I'm the mail man!) It's sort of like a GMH sponsored-role without any of the power.
Most clan roles are functionary. Hunters are functionary. Soldiers are functionary. Mercenaries, grebbers and silt sifters are all functionary, and people play them. They're the roles that bring life and flavor to the world of Armageddon, as much or more so than Lord Fancypants blowing 20,000 sid on black silky braies.
Quote
If automated caravans happened (I think that was being discussed in 2.0), mail-service Nenyuki could be on board with the mail bound for its final destination. In that way, mail could be stolen, the courier could be killed during a raid, etc.
Given the state of Armageddon code, automated caravans are likely an absolute nightmare to get set up. From a playing perspective, what advantage would they give over hiring PCs to do the legwork for you? The only person I see benefiting from automated caravans are the people who dispatch them, since they won't have to deal with that pesky business of finding other PCs to carry out their tasks for them.
Increasing literacy only works in tandem with a weakening of the Way for non psionicist classes.
If the Way remains as is, it will be just as useless as it is now.
Well, in a practical sense, sure. But from the OOC perspective of player-created content and retaining stories from an IC perspective, no - it would still find use.
I really like the idea that distance could interfere with the Way (dropped links, scrambled messages -- but I think difficulty to contact would be the best and least frustrating).
In fact, even without literacy becoming widespread, this might encourage the use of messengers: a messenger would have to travel to a region that is close to the message's intended recipient, stay there for a couple weeks and attempt to make contact, and then return. Messengers would likely want to keep their identities secret.
I am less for the idea of introducing widespread literacy (as always, take my opinions with a grain of salt, I'm probably the least informed commenter here). Playwise and themewise, it's one of those key things that actually separates the well-to-do from the dirty commoners. It reinforces the notion that, for Joe Commoner, a real education is simply out of reach.
Pragmatically (and this is a crappy argument), in a PK-anywhere MUD like Arm, writing systems impress me as really hard to get right, especially for newbies who might not know how to exit the editor after they've been backstabbed.
"Rule of the Caravan Zalanthan Wastes: Do not fuck with the man who delivers your mail."
- Rose of Sharon Cassidy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/FalloutNewVegasTheCourier)
I wouldn't want to see a "virtual letter deliver system", via anyone like Nenyuk. No virtual post office service, or anything similar.
I would want any transfer of written communication have to be handled by PC's.
If we automate it, we miss out on a ton of possibilities that hand delivering such things would bring to the game.
The idea is to make the transfer of information less instant, and less secure, so why implement a super secure transfer method just to nerf our own idea?
As for literacy and the Way change going hand in hand, yes, it seems ideal that they would go hand in hand.
But even without the Way changes, you would still have a lot of new opportunities added to the game by literacy being more common. Journals lost/found/stolen, secret letters with info "too sensitive to risk a mindworm", wanted posters, propaganda, books on just about every subject, even just stories for IC entertainment written by IC characters.
They work well together (both changes), but the written word is used for a lot of other things and presents a lot of other possibilities for roleplay beyond just communication over distances.
The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.
I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.
+1 for the idea of being a highly/mid-ranked House member (including those ranks actually achievable by PC's, not just the special app only roles/virtual roles/NPC roles) giving you access to literacy as a perk.
It would add a real perk to being a House member and wanting to climb the ranks of those Houses, and we all know Houses could use more of that.
(I can also see this being commonly accepted for Templar/Noble aides, and anyone with enough money to pay someone to teach them. If they are wealthy enough to pay for lessons from those with the knowledge, they are likely not on the same "level" socially as your common piece of street trash from the Rinth.)
Someone with the scribe main guild would become the new AIDE CLASS, rather than assassins and burglars.
People with the scribe Main GUILD would receive few skills aside from listen, maybe sneak and hide and scan, basic weapon skills, and the ability to read and write in any language they can speak or come to learn, with the same proficiency they can speak it. It could be a CGP 3 class.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 01:59:25 PM
The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.
I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.
The Protestant Reformation (which spurred things like the 30- and 80- Year Wars) in Europe was driven in large part by commoners translating the Bible, previously written only in Latin and controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, in to the vernacular.
Slaves in the American South were forbidden to know how to read and write, especially after it was used to foment several slave revolts.
Controlling how people communicate controls how people think. The City States maintain illiteracy among the masses in an effort to control the narratives that get passed along. "Yes, the plaque at the foot of this Templar statue totally details what a great hero they were." [Secret Thought: And not that they were actually a bit of a derpface who accidentally drank out of the cleaning fluid keg].
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 02:15:36 PM
Someone with the scribe main guild would become the new AIDE CLASS, rather than assassins and burglars.
People with the scribe Main GUILD would receive few skills aside from listen, maybe sneak and hide and scan, basic weapon skills, and the ability to read and write in any language they can speak or come to learn, with the same proficiency they can speak it. It could be a CGP 3 class.
Not sure I would want to see this as a main guild.
An extended subclass sure.
Though personally I would rather see a sweeping wide-scope change that affected all commoners.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 27, 2014, 02:17:44 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 01:59:25 PM
The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.
I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.
The Protestant Reformation (which spurred things like the 30- and 80- Year Wars) in Europe was driven in large part by commoners translating the Bible, previously written only in Latin and controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, in to the vernacular.
Slaves in the American South were forbidden to know how to read and write, especially after it was used to foment several slave revolts.
Controlling how people communicate controls how people think. The City States maintain illiteracy among the masses in an effort to control the narratives that get passed along. "Yes, the plaque at the foot of this Templar statue totally details what a great hero they were." [Secret Thought: And not that they were actually a bit of a derpface who accidentally drank out of the cleaning fluid keg].
Meh. I still dislike it as it currently stands, and would greatly like to see DM's idea come to fruition.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 27, 2014, 02:17:44 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 01:59:25 PM
The lack of literacy has never been used in the real world to keep citizens under control, as far as I know. The dearth of reading ability in the middle ages was due to a lack of education and a need to do more meaningful things to fill your belly, not because the art was restricted.
I frankly dislike the lack of literacy in the game currently, and I think allowing life-sworn servants of rank to learn to read and write just makes sense. It just tucks another gem into the golden pot that is supposed to be serving a Clan.
The Protestant Reformation (which spurred things like the 30- and 80- Year Wars) in Europe was driven in large part by commoners translating the Bible, previously written only in Latin and controlled by the Roman Catholic Church, in to the vernacular.
Slaves in the American South were forbidden to know how to read and write, especially after it was used to foment several slave revolts.
Controlling how people communicate controls how people think. The City States maintain illiteracy among the masses in an effort to control the narratives that get passed along. "Yes, the plaque at the foot of this Templar statue totally details what a great hero they were." [Secret Thought: And not that they were actually a bit of a derpface who accidentally drank out of the cleaning fluid keg].
This +1.
It's hard to imagine a despotic city-state run by magick-wielding Templars that oppress the common caste and where the whisper of democracy dies in a strangled throat allowing a liberal idea like 'writing for all'.
That's basically my 'hang up'. On an OOC front, I agree that literacy could be a great thing for the game. But ICly...Hard to imagine Tek and Muk getting behind this. In a way, it goes against the setting even further, when water is supposed to be a hot commodity and we know OOCly it isn't, or that travel in the desert is supposed to be beyond deadly, and we OOCly know our ways around this...Literacy is another soft-ball.
Quote from: Desertman on June 27, 2014, 02:19:08 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 02:15:36 PM
Someone with the scribe main guild would become the new AIDE CLASS, rather than assassins and burglars.
People with the scribe Main GUILD would receive few skills aside from listen, maybe sneak and hide and scan, basic weapon skills, and the ability to read and write in any language they can speak or come to learn, with the same proficiency they can speak it. It could be a CGP 3 class.
Not sure I would want to see this as a main guild.
An extended subclass sure.
Though personally I would rather see a sweeping wide-scope change that affected all commoners.
+1
Wouldn't make much sense to hire a scribe to carry a missive if that person had to hire someone to escort them. Though, I realize it has been done, and if this is implemented, probably will be done again and could currently happen IG... but it should definitely not be a main guild.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 27, 2014, 02:23:59 PM
It's hard to imagine a despotic city-state run by magick-wielding Templars that oppress the common caste and where the whisper of democracy dies in a strangled throat allowing a liberal idea like 'writing for all'.
That's basically my 'hang up'. On an OOC front, I agree that literacy would be a great thing for the game. But ICly...Hard to imagine Tek and Muk getting behind this.
I agree. Which is why I continue to advocate for literacy becoming more (relatively) common as well as staying just as illegal. Make it an another avenue for conflict, drama, and tension between the commoners and the elites, not just a convenient means to get all our stroppy poetry immortalized in game.
I'd love to see a writing system develop that's kept secret from the templarate and nobles and used as a means to circumvent the powers that be. This is one reason I'm skeptical of Cavilish becoming widespread. My preferred development would be someone devising a writing system for sirihish and keeping it a secret script. I think I'll try that, one day.
If it stays so illegal that it will get you killed on sight, it basically becomes what we have with spice smuggling currently in Allanak.
Something that shows great promise in terms of adding some really cool roleplay to the game, but also something that is very rarely seen and even more rarely fully utilized to its full potential.
When you can be killed on sight for it, only the truly stupid, or the truly cunning will ever dabble in it.
We have a really smart player base that likes to live. Most of them wouldn't dabble in it as such. Me included.
We have some people who can be truly cunning, but, they are rare.
If we are going to keep it so rare that it might as well not even exist at all, I don't see the reason in even making any changes.
We can already basically do it that way with our current system.
Now, I would love to see and would EXPECT to see all literature highly policed by the templarate and the militias of both city-states.
I don't mean they kill you on sight for being able to read and write. I mean they are prone to searching your bags, just like they are now for illegal substances, but also taking note of any documents you have on you for review.
I feel bad for the guy who has blasphemous documents on his person that is discovered during one of these searches.
The documents would of course be destroyed, most likely along with their carrier.
This of course is another great facet to the idea I am going to record.
Templars/militia soldiers are now also responsible for keeping the written word in accordance with the agendas of their respective city states.
Just more interaction. More drama. More conflict. More things to do for everyone.
I also want to be the guy who gets hired to smuggle opposing city-state propaganda into the other city-state.
So much fun to be had there.
Quote from: Desertman on June 27, 2014, 02:36:25 PM
If it stays so illegal that it will get you killed on sight, it basically becomes what we have with spice smuggling currently in Allanak.
etc.
Agreed that the risk/reward for commoner literacy right now is almost entirely slanted towards the risk. Either have to lower risk (i.e. limited legality), up reward (i.e. more secure versus other means of communication, ability to leave messages for those you cannot meet in person?), or do both.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 12:23:45 PM
I think a growing period of literacy among PC commoners, with the PC templarates trying to combat it, would lead to literacy not growing at all, myself, particularly at a PC level.
I think that back-stage antics are the best way to introduce such a thing as this, and while you could include PCs in the advent of such a thing, I feel like tying the world's shoestrings to the PC's shoes, in this case, isn't the best idea.
I just noticed this post.
This is my opinion as well.
I think the only way to really do this is to just go hardmode and enforce an overall change on the staff level that changes our entrenched mindsets.
Sometimes there is no clean IC way to do things that makes everything make perfect sense.
It would be uncomfortable for about two RL weeks, then it would be business as usual. I think the gains far outweigh any risks, if there are any.
Again, I'm reminded of the movie Equilibrium.
If you have not seen this yet, I would encourage you to do so paying special attention to any scene with literature involved keeping DMan's idea in mind.
Quote from: Redheart on June 27, 2014, 03:04:52 PM
Again, I'm reminded of the movie Equilibrium.
If you have not seen this yet, I would encourage you to do so paying special attention to any scene with literature involved keeping DMan's idea in mind.
Yup, seen it. Part of my inspiration. :)
Hmmm. If you didn't get killed or jailed for have written stuff but it was illegal, and it was just yoinked, I'd be alright with that.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 03:11:38 PM
Hmmm. If you didn't get killed or jailed for have written stuff but it was illegal, and it was just yoinked, I'd be alright with that.
Templars do what they want.
Yeah, I don't think they would actually stick to the idea of, "We only take it away.".
They would probably do what they do now with any other criminals, which is punish them severely, most of the time.
If petty pickpockets/thieves are getting arena time/tortured/beat up/killed, I doubt we will see "literature smugglers" treated any less harshly, even if it is intended that they should be.
If we make it illegal it really kind of puts a damper on the whole system. I would take it, but, it wouldn't be ideal in my opinion and would kill a lot of the potential the idea has to offer in my opinion.
I would rather just see, "Blasphemous literature.", seen as illegal.
Yeah. I'm not saying that I agree with keeping it illegal - I'm saying that if it were, I wouldn't want to see you be killed for it.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on June 27, 2014, 03:23:36 PM
Yeah. I'm not saying that I agree with keeping it illegal - I'm saying that if it were, I wouldn't want to see you be killed for it.
Agreed.
I know this is nearly a month-old thread, but I wanted to jump in and add my opinion on literacy as well. :D
One of the major 'environmental draws' of ArmageddonMUD is the illiteracy. Most 'RPI' or RPI-wannabe games that I had played previously allowed full-blown, unexplainable literacy -- you had characters with the IQ of a stump writing Shakespseare and reading Theories of the Effects of Chaos in Metaphysics. There was nothing quite as game-breaking (and immersion-breaking) as players using the in-game message boards by writing first-person posts to one another. 'Today, a man with [insert verbatim sdesc and ldesc here] cut off my arms. I am going to kill him and you should too!' One of the games I played actually had libraries, and you'd find half the playerbase in there studying up complex skills.
I don't expect ArmageddonMUD to ever go that far, or for the staff to allow players to start using the in-game boards as their personal diary, but the experience had burned me.
People take their literacy for granted. Reading (and writing) is hard and takes a long time to learn. Understanding spoken language is not the same as knowing how to write in it, either -- and 9 times out of 10, game admins don't bother to draw a distinction between the two because it requires a lot of extra coding and bug testing.
With Armageddon's current theme, it simply does not make sense a lot of people would know how to read, even if it were legal. You would not send your children to 'school', and because reading is not a survival skill, poor parents would not waste their very valuable time trying to teach it to their children, even if they knew how to read (somewhat) themselves. The only non-nobles who may know how to read would be cushy merchant family members -- but then you have to deal with the fact that the templarate may not appreciate having commoners (even rich ones) able to intercept and read their carefully-guarded secrets and histories.
Lastly, there is no pressing -need- for writing. Few people would ever NEED to write messages, and there's no NEED to have interpreters or message scribes in either city, because (as I remember it) the Way is global, accessible by everyone, and instant. Perhaps if there were strict distance limitations applied to the usage of the Way, or have a person's ability to Way a particular person be based on how long along they were in close contact (i.e, you'd have to meet them first, but your ability to reach them will fade over a time), then maybe there'd be a use for it. (As an aside, the Way's not even restricted to the game world -- I distinctly remember 'contact Godzilla' actually working a few years ago.)
I shudder to think at the amount of database memory would be tied up by saving all the random written works written by literate PCs if literacy was made anything but illegal.
Quote from: Fayos on July 19, 2014, 06:49:07 PM
I shudder to think at the amount of database memory would be tied up by saving all the random written works written by literate PCs if literacy was made anything but illegal.
You obviously haven't seen some of the bad "bard song" posts.....
I think don't make it illegal, but make it not so easy to acquire, part of an extended subguild for example... but I would so love to see more writing in the game, keeping records of interesting characters, and treasure maps, and stuff like that. I think it would add more flavour than take away from it. It could pass in the senate for a trial period.. and be revoked if it don't work out?
Quote from: Evilone on July 21, 2014, 06:12:07 AM
I think don't make it illegal, but make it not so easy to acquire, part of an extended subguild for example... but I would so love to see more writing in the game, keeping records of interesting characters, and treasure maps, and stuff like that. I think it would add more flavour than take away from it. It could pass in the senate for a trial period.. and be revoked if it don't work out?
I think it would add a lot to the game too, so long as it were allowed to. My impression (from the GDB, not experience) is that books and scrolls tend not to persist in the game (i.e. they disappear or are removed by staff eventually).
It could just be that learning to read and write could be a boon of life-swearing to a clan, in later ranks.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 21, 2014, 06:44:37 PM
(sig quotes Ami)
Should be the newbie catches fire and you're left with charred meat.
Heh.