Karma rate

[Marshmellow]

That part was fine, but it has since devolved into a, "I hate playing a gemmer/Oashi," rant.  That should end.

[Salt Merchant]

Think about it, though.  Why would you, as a gemmed, want to give someone that sort of life-and-death authority over yourself, at least without knowing them very well first?

To be fair, gemmed do not have a choice about this in the first place. There are others more powerful in some cases than even nobles that hold life-and-death authority over mages. That would be the templarate.

The difference is that, while the templarate can be mostly avoided, an employer with your name cannot.

"I hate playing a gemmer/Oashi," rant.

And no, it's not a "hate/rant". Irritating when people try to label any criticism at all or even simple discussion that way. Maybe you're feeling defensive about something you did?

It's why I don't think it's all that IC for a gemmed mage to actively seek employment with House Oash. Nor would I say House Oash is an answer to getting karma, except perhaps for the noble's player.

[Kiara]

Think about it, though.  Why would you, as a gemmed, want to give someone that sort of life-and-death authority over yourself, at least without knowing them very well first?

To be fair, gemmed do not have a choice about this in the first place. There are others more powerful in some cases than even nobles that hold life-and-death authority over mages. That would be the templarate.

The difference is that, while the templarate can be mostly avoided, an employer with your name cannot.

"I hate playing a gemmer/Oashi," rant.

And no, it's not a "hate/rant". Irritating when people try to label any criticism at all or even simple discussion that way. Maybe you're feeling defensive about something you did?

It's why I don't think it's all that IC for a gemmed mage to actively seek employment with House Oash. Nor would I say House Oash is an answer to getting karma, except perhaps for the noble's player.

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

For a myriad of reasons that cannot be discussed for fear of divulging IC details.

[Qzzrbl]

It's why I don't think it's all that IC for a gemmed mage to actively seek employment with House Oash.

Go back and re-read my latest posts in this thread.... I've pretty much explained why it is IC for a gemmed mage to look to Oash for work.

[Decameron]

I don't think that any sort of consenus is really going to be reached here. Not necessarily because either side is wrong, mind you, but simply seems to enjoy separate things from their own RP experience with/as magickers. I really am a firm believer that this is a case-by-case basis rather than blanketing the entire situation as black/white (or in this case join or hate Oash). I can't really find anything wrong with that, to be honest. Some people took their first character to the Byn and hated it, others enjoy it - some store and some get promoted. The beautiful thing about this game is that there's always a chance to try it all again, and take another route, make different decisions and get different results. While I think it's unfair to merely convince oneself of hating a particular Household, I would imagine there was an underlying experience which caused such. 

Dislike your leader? No social contact? Feel too confined? To my recollection, employment in House Oash isn't permenant unless one takes a life-oath. We have a lot of players, someone's bound to dislike the way another person leads - it's unfortunate, but the leaders aren't there to make your characters interesting for you, they are there to promote plots, whether you get involved or not is typically based on your actions. Felt like storing after a few weeks? Bring it up IC, just like any other character - develop conflict, get a friend, lover, enemy, whatever. Don't feel like it? Then store. Wait a while and try it again, your asshole leader can't live forever, and it's a big world. There's always another opportunity.

I'd also like to point out that just because someone -is- gemmed, doesn't mean they have to stay in Allanak. Granted it's a lot safer, but well .. some people don't like playing safe.

[Rhyden]

Great post, Decameron. This especially bears repeating

The beautiful thing about this game is that there's always a chance to try it all again, and take another route, make different decisions and get different results.

[Salt Merchant]

It's why I don't think it's all that IC for a gemmed mage to actively seek employment with House Oash.

Go back and re-read my latest posts in this thread.... I've pretty much explained why it is IC for a gemmed mage to look to Oash for work.

No, you explained why you think it is IC.

Keep in mind that your opinions are not written in stone handed down by God.

I will allow that it might be IC for a masochistic PC or a naive PC to seek employment with House Oash, but, given what is public knowledge, in -my- opinion any gemmed PC with a sense of self preservation should have cause for grave thought.

[hyzhenhok]

It's why I don't think it's all that IC for a gemmed mage to actively seek employment with House Oash.

Go back and re-read my latest posts in this thread.... I've pretty much explained why it is IC for a gemmed mage to look to Oash for work.

No, you explained why you think it is IC.

Keep in mind that your opinions are not written in stone handed down by God.

I will allow that it might be IC for a masochistic PC or a naive PC to seek employment with House Oash, but, given what is public knowledge, in -my- opinion any gemmed PC with a sense of self preservation should have cause for grave thought.

Please stop with the IC spoilers. What you're talking about isn't obvious, isn't news on the IC message boards, isn't commonly spoken about, and it's pretty presumptuous for you to assume that everybody knows about it and anyone who plays contrary to that knowledge is somehow not acting IC. Most newer players who are just getting their first magicker karma (I thought this was the topic of this thread) have no clue what you're talking about, and probably shouldn't until they run into someone IG that has the inside scoop and wants to pass it on.

The only common knowledge here really is that Oash is a noble house that hires gemmed humans.

[Qzzrbl]

It's why I don't think it's all that IC for a gemmed mage to actively seek employment with House Oash.

Go back and re-read my latest posts in this thread.... I've pretty much explained why it is IC for a gemmed mage to look to Oash for work.

I will allow that it might be IC for a masochistic PC or a naive PC to seek employment with House Oash, but, given what is public knowledge, in -my- opinion any gemmed PC with a sense of self preservation should have cause for grave thought.

If Allanak was the home of the free, land of the brave.... Sure.

But think about it.

Damn near any clan you join has that sort of power over your PC.... Your byn sergeant having a bad day, he may whip you half to death on a whim. Templar looking for a scapegoat? Sucks for you if you're the first militia PC he sees.

Hell, if every PC paused and thought, "Wait.... I could get hurt or killed here." before joining anything, every clan in the game would be empty.

Methinks you should dial back how important your average PC commoner should think he/she is a notch or two.

[Talia]

Man, I'm on staff and I don't even know about these ultra-compelling IC reasons not to join Oash as a gemmer. And I've played in Allanak a lot, in a lot of different roles over my years of play.

It's totally OK for a player to choose what s/he wants to do with their PC, within the bounds of the documentation.

And I think the continued back-and-forth about whether or not players should/could/would choose to play Oashi gemmed is unnecessary. It's an option, and it may or may not be a good one for any particular player at a particular time. To those who've never tried it, I'd encourage a try--because even a failed attempt can help expand our personal skills, view of roleplaying in ARM, and knowledge of the game world.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Methinks you should dial back how important your average PC commoner should think he/she is a notch or two.

So fucking seriously.

[Kiara]

Even a failed attempt can help expand our personal skills, view of roleplaying in ARM, and knowledge of the game world.

And MAYBE, just MAYBE, you can have fun doing it.

There's nothing wrong with failing. You don't have win Armageddon with every character.

Well said Talia.

[Bogre]

Yeah I remember seeing templars flay their men with whips for screwing up way back in the day.

[X-D]

Now, I was staying away again, but then the staff push on a clan happened again.

This is the point I mostly do NOT agree with. Talia, state that there is an option, leave it at that.

First off, as with any clan or PC, you should NOT make a PC with the intent to join a certain clan.

you SHOULD do IC and OOC research on the matter before deciding.


Also, remember, you can only play in Oash if you are playing a HUMAN gemmer. Maybe there is a reason for that that would affect your enjoyment, maybe not.

And lastly, remember that playing an Oash mage is VERY much a niche role.

As to the one pointing out that a clan is only as good as the leadership. When I played in the clan, I think it had the best leadership I've seen in that house before and since. It is still not something I will repeat and I wish I'd never done it to begin with.

[Talia]

I think you don't get where I am fundamentally coming from here, X-D, which is that I think all players should try all roles at least once, or as many as they can personally stand to try.* There is often a sentiment on these forums of attempting to convince other players not to play <role>; this could be emo breeds or stoic dwarves or dumb half-giants or gypsies or bards or Tulukis or Allanakis or desert elves or high-karma roles or apped leadership or etc etc etc. I find it at best silly (because different strokes for different folks), and at worst destructive to the game (because it feeds into an ongoing cycle of negativity and player- or staff-bashing).

I have my personal preferences about how I like to play and what roles I'm really good at playing, just like every other player has his/her own talents and leanings. But, how do we discover these things? Not by playing the same role over and over again, rather by trying different things until we figure it out. And even then, trying new and challenging things is good for us as players. (Oh, the awesome roles I would never have tried if I'd listened to the negativity of the GDB.)

It all comes down to letting people play what they want to play. I'm not pushing any clan; I have absolutely no investment in whether anyone does or does not play anywhere in particular or any role in particular. But really, it's not like anyone has ever died in real life because they tried playing an Oashi gemmer, so all the furor over the suggestion is a little over-the-top.

* That, I think, probably does relate to karma a little bit. If a player never branches out into new and difficult things, it's hard to accrue trust toward the more challenging, more restrictive roles in the game.

[Marauder Moe]

Random replies:

I don't think it's a terrible sin to create a character with the intent to join a specific clan, or with any other OOCly-engineered goals.

Just because something happens in a clan doesn't necessarily mean that it's clan policy, even if someone claims that it is.  Furthermore, clan policies can and do change.

Lastly, Oash rocks.  Black and azure forever!

[Old Kank]

As to the one pointing out that a clan is only as good as the leadership. When I played in the clan, I think it had the best leadership I've seen in that house before and since. It is still not something I will repeat and I wish I'd never done it to begin with.

What did you dislike so much about it?

[Marshmellow]

OOCly engineered goals aren't that bad, Moe.  You have some expectations for what your character will do after being approved and those are OOCly engineered goals too.  It's a matter of degree.  Some special applications are not approved without OOCly engineered goals, because you have to explain how your special application will impact the world and show how you believe it will be affecting the world in a good way.  Sticking to some of these OOCly engineered goals in the face of IC events, however, is less often a good thing.

X-D, I think you're taking this very wrong.  Neither Talia nor I told people that it's always fun in Oash and that everyone will like.  We think everyone should try it, being gemmed for their first magicker or going Oash with their first magicker.  Whether the person enjoys the role or not, if the player sticks with it long enough, the player will learn better what it is to play a magicker and thus can go on to other roles with more experience instead of hopping straight into a more difficult role to remain alive in, like a magicker living the undercover life in Tuluk.  If you get disappeared in 6 hours (or raptored, or bahameted, or desert elved, or scrabbed, whatever), how did you really learn much of anything about the magick code and the magickal side of the game?

I'm suggesting a role where it isn't too hard to stay alive so that people can learn to play the game.  It's just like telling someone to role up a ranger/warrior and to join the Byn with a first character.  Not everyone likes playing a Bynner, like me for example.  I'll never do it.  You'll never play a gemmer or an Oashi again?  That's your decision.  Stop telling everyone else not to do it, though, because they're different and might have an awesome time.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Honestly? I played the gemmed those posts were about. And I really enjoyed the RP of the incidents. However... when you restrict someone from speaking to other commoners and whip them publicly for their interactions with clan mates... I nearly stored.

Take it how you will. Gemmed roles, I'm not generally a big fan of. And I don't think I'll ever, ever play an Oash gemmed again. Not that it wasn't (at times) enjoyable, but I hated it. It wasn't my playstyle at all. Then again, I heartily recommend people go rogue for their first mage, every bit as much as gemmed.

I may be wierd, but I would not have kept playing Arm if my first pc had been a warrior or ranger, and especially not if I'd have joined the Byn. While those are all great things, it's simply not what's enjoyable for me.

And I have an itchy feeling that a good chunk of the people who think it'd be so fun to play a gemmed... have not in a LONG time.

[Akoto]

Gotta agree with Amanda on this one. I've played more mages than not, and at this point in time, it's very unlikely that I'd go Gemmed again. Not only does it separate you socially from the other PCs in Allanak, it's now treated as an unhideable target outside of the walls. There is no payoff for accepting the restriction, save for the ability to practice in a temple. Truthfully, the last genuinely successful, enjoyable Gemmed I had was during the Council era.

Not long ago, I did have an Oash PC, and it did not work for me at all. I'd like to see more options for people who choose to go Gemmed, because one size definitely doesn't fit all.

[X-D]

Marsh, I never told anyone not to play anything, in fact, I said that playing a first mage as a gemmer is a good idea.

My only problem with anything in the thread was people pushing a clan, being gemmed is not a clan. I took special notice when it was a staffer pushing the clan. Something I don't think staffers should do. A staffers post carries extra weight with many players and I think in the end it is hurtful for them to push a clan. A player can very easily follow that push, then if they hate the clan, they will focus on the fact that a staffer pushed it on them.

And I do not agree with anybody who thinks all roles should be tried, no matter if they are fun or not, that is just plain silly to knowingly put yourself into a role you know or think you will not enjoy, it is a game, and one played for enjoyment.

Old Kank, you know I cannot say what I did not like about a clan on the GDB. No matter what I say on the matter it would be considered badmouthing a clan and is at the very least frowned upon on the GDB. Also, to clarify what anybody else might think. I don't think Oash is a bad clan in any way. I DO on the other had see it as a Niche role if you are playing a gemmed in Oash and something a majority of people might not like.

Moe, No it is not a sin to create a PC intended for a certain clan, but better advice is to leave it open enough that you can change your mind rather then being locked into joining that clan or your concept will not work.

Talia, Trying to explain things away after the fact does not work. The fact is, you stated in one post that you "Encurage people to try Oash", In another you said

My general recommendation would be that anyone's first stab at a mage should be played gemmed, within the Quarter, in Allanak, and attempting to get hired by House Oash.

. The first post actually made it sound like a staff prefered route to take. The rest are still pushing a clan, you can write whatever you want on the matter and it is moot, you did, as a staffer, promote a clan on the GDB that you, a staffer think people should try.

Oh, and Marsh, far as I know, you are not on staff, if you wanna promote a clan as the end all be all best in the game, more power too you, I don't care, hell, I'm not even sure why you have been replying to any of my posts before this one since none of mine were aimed at you, only the idea of a staffer pushing a clan.

[Talia]

That statement wasn't me pushing a clan, it was me pushing clans. Clans generally are the best route for players to get into their roles and become involved in plots. The only clan that an openly-known elementalist can join is Oash. So, if a player is going to play gemmed in Allanak, in general I do believe they should look at trying out Oash, because Oash is the only clan they can join. And again, clans in general are the best vehicle for PC involvement, for a lot of reasons.

If there were more clans for openly-known elementalists to join, I'd just say "join a clan." But that's not the case, so it's, "join Oash."

Just like, if I'm advising someone new to ARM, I'm gonna say, "join <a clan that will have you, mostly the Byn>." This is not a bias toward any one clan, it's simply a bias toward clans.

But again, I do not have any personal investment in this, it's just advice for what I see as the routes of play that are most likely to be fruitful for most players. And if it doesn't work for a particular player, really, there's no harm done.

[X-D]

Then the wording should have been different. Which I posted on before.

Throwing Oash or the Byn or clans out as an option is great, But you said "Should" and "Encourage".

I do agree though that Clan play is the best play in arm.

[Salt Merchant]

Methinks you should dial back how important your average PC commoner should think he/she is a notch or two.

So fucking seriously.

It has nothing to do with importance, and everything to do with wanting to survive and keep some skin on one's back.

You people are confusing what you, the player wants (templar X is advertising for a new aide? oh boy!) with what a character likely would want (templar X's last aide was whipped and banished from the city, and the previous was executed; now she's advertising for another.. I think I'll pass).

To whomever claimed I'm spilling IC information: I have never had a character join or be in House Oash, nor have in-depth interactions with their employees. So it should be pretty apparent that what I know really is external perception and has been gathered solely from public sources such as the bulletin boards and tavern hearsay.

Never did I state that joining House Oash is a bad idea for purpose of having fun. Only that I believe it to be IC to perceive it to be a bad idea.

[brytta.leofa]

Trying to avoid the Powers and cozying up to them are both time-honored strategies.