Involving people who don't play US evenings

[aeglaeca]

? I'm not responding defensively, nor do I feel particularly defensive. If you don't agree with my point of view, that's perfectly fine-- I'm basically of the POV that IC is IC and if OOC is affecting IC, well, that sucks but what do you want leaders to do about it if you take no steps from the minion side to change what's going on IC?

[RogueGunslinger]

RGS, I usually agree with you, here I do not. I think you are showing little empathy for the people who struggle through clan-life with little to no recognition, which, I know we played together back then, you could be practicing some empathy, but you never even tried. You never even saw it was going on, and you were probably quite puzzled with the results because you, never bothered. I mean, your character wouldn't, this doesn't mean you wouldn't, but obviously, you didn't. There was much more to it than that, but this was a major concern to me. I'm not going to accuse you of having, oh, say, eight karma apathy, because, I know you play good characters, you play them well, and I love your mundanes. I don't like wading through this sewage because, see above, I really think some people are in the wrong.

No I likely never saw what was going on, because I'm not even sure what you're talking about right now. There's good reasons why I'm not playing leaders anymore, part of them is this expectation players seem to have that you owe it to them to personally account their perspective even when they don't take any steps to communicate with you. But that doesn't change the fact I had opinions much like you, playing off-peak before.  And then that opinion changed after playing a leader, because I had new perspective. Leaders don't owe it to you to make sure everything is going well if you can't be arsed to let them know something isn't going well. If it really mattered to me I could have easily mended my own situation. Instead I blamed my leader( I think it was Case's Templar, sorry case) for not acknowledging me. Now I realize I could have done a lot of things to help myself instead of getting upset at others.

I have plenty of sympathy for off-peakers. More often than not, that's me.

[BadSkeelz]

Heh, was that on that one Private, RGS? I was gonna promote you and then you ran away and deserted

Being a leader is tough. Good leaders want everyone in their clan to have fun. We like to know who our minions are, and I think a lot of us give them a lot of benefit of the doubt when I hear they're up to no good (I know I did). It's a two way street, though. We need SOME feedback to know how our minions are doing. For on peak players this is easy and done almost organically since we're around each other. But for minions who don't share our time zones, it behooves both leader and minion to reasonably work on staying in touch as well they can.

I don't think being offpeak is automatically damning your character to not being trusted or getting promoted. It just requires a little more effort to be put in (from both sides) to make sure you're a happy and valued member of the clan.

This thread originally got revived over the matter of promotions. Promotions have always been a problematic reward because most clans are very small. The militias only ever have one sergeant and maybe two corporals; the Byn is not much better. Promoting everyone to Sergeant or Corporal isn't practical. For that reason I'm a big fan of lateral promotions and other forms of recognition. I also like to give minions autonomy, and greatly appreciate it when it's rewarded with minions not making me look like a dolt with it.

[senseofeven]

I still think being leader just as in real life if you are managing a group of asshats, you'd still pop by and ask them. You being in a leadership role is responsible for the performance of your team. That being said if you have tries and tried again to communicate ic and ooc but met with nothing? Then you have already done your part RGS. There's nothing else you can do except role play out how a piece a shit they are if they don't got a good reason to tell you an reason after you have tried to contact them.

Not every pc leader does that. Let chu know. And I heart u many many RGS.

[Revenant]

Leaders do owe it to you to do some  investigation, seriously, before they drop the hammer. Also, Aegaelica, your name is hard to spell, pick something easier. I've seen you roll with the punches, RGS, and while it's admirable, you weren't the person offset by roughly twelve hours. I'd like to dismiss what I said as idle banter, but you continue to make arguments that prove me right. Please fix. Neither of you is considering the victim, and indeed, seem to be blaming them.

[BadSkeelz]

Jesus, Revenant, please lay off the white knighting and rudeness.

[BadSkeelz]

I still think being leader just as in real life if you are managing a group of asshats, you'd still pop by and ask them. You being in a leadership role is responsible for the performance of your team. That being said if you have tries and tried again to communicate ic and ooc but met with nothing? Then you have already done your part RGS. There's nothing else you can do except role play out how a piece a shit they are if they don't got a good reason to tell you an reason after you have tried to contact them.

Not every pc leader does that. Let chu know. And I heart u many many RGS.

Filing reports about what pieces of shit your leader are is totally appropriate. Even if Staff can't do much to materially help you, reports have been a good place for me to vent. And sometimes we do find solutions.

[Revenant]

Jesus, Revenant, please lay off the white knighting and rudeness.

I said what needed to be said, hopefully I'm done, if I'm not, you'll hear more. I think I've said it all though... I could be wrong. White knighting and rudeness, hrrmmm, what, because I'm talking about what ruffles my feathers? How do we advance IC if we don't accept our IG surroundings? You think there should be no complaints?

[RogueGunslinger]

Heh, was that on that one Private, RGS? I was gonna promote you and then you ran away and deserted

Yeah, I think that was the one. Very embarrassing character to remember. I thought he was going to go all Dances with Wolves, instead he just got eaten by gortoks after falling off of a cliff in a sandstorm the first RL day I had him deserted.

Leaders do owe it to you to do some  investigation, seriously, before they drop the hammer. Also, Aegaelica, your name is hard to spell, pick something easier. I've seen you roll with the punches, RGS, and while it's admirable, you weren't the person offset by roughly twelve hours. I'd like to dismiss what I said as idle banter, but you continue to make arguments that prove me right. Please fix. Neither of you is considering the victim, and indeed, seem to be blaming them.

I'm going to need you to explain yourself if you want me to understand what you're getting at. I'm not the smartest so you're going to have to keep it really simple, also the less you have me depend on my own memory, the better off we'll be.

I still think being leader just as in real life if you are managing a group of asshats, you'd still pop by and ask them. You being in a leadership role is responsible for the performance of your team. That being said if you have tries and tried again to communicate ic and ooc but met with nothing? Then you have already done your part RGS. There's nothing else you can do except role play out how a piece a shit they are if they don't got a good reason to tell you an reason after you have tried to contact them.

Not every pc leader does that. Let chu know. And I heart u many many RGS.

I will definitely concede that a good leader should care about the fun of their underlings, and attempt to interact with them when said leaders are playing. I just not sure we should expect leaders to PM or e-mail their underlings asking if everything honky-dory.  If a leader says no, they can't promote you, they should then seek to figure out if you're worth promoting  try to set up a meeting and then re-address the situation. But expecting them to do all that before a denial would be a bit strange.

[Revenant]

Always been a fan of your characters, RGS, not always a fan of your perspectives, but you characters are, magnetic, even if short lived.

[RogueGunslinger]

Thanks. If it helps even I don't agree with myself all the time.

[Revenant]

Yeah, well, then we have something in common, and not in the smartass I always disagree with you sort of way, but in that I continually question myself. Good on you, just, there IS a problem when people choose to exploit those off peak because they're easy targets.

[aeglaeca]

How I see it of you are a leader is to always engage and put up fun role play and tasks for your minions. Even when there is nothing to do you even the simplest action of removing some restrictions would already make off peakers very happy.

Lifted restrictions is more available to some clans than others, unfortunately. From my POV allowing PCs to get out and explore is definitely the meat and potatoes of Arm's combat-oriented game, but it's also a major newbie (and veteran?) killer so I can understand why there might be restrictions on this from staff.

Outside of implementing off-peak leadership or giving specific permissions to do X, I'm not really sure what kind of solution there is to this problem.

If you feel there's something worthy of OOC complaint then submitting a player complaint seems to be where it's at, or yeah, IC reporting to superiors might work, too. That's a good idea, actually! IMO the less time OOCly spent on this kind of thing, the better, since too much OOC tends to foster bad feelings. Sometimes IC drama is just IC drama.

I will definitely concede that a good leader should care about the fun of their underlings, and attempt to interact with them when said leaders are playing. I just not sure we should expect leaders to PM or e-mail their underlings asking if everything honky-dory.  If a leader says no, they can't promote you, they should then seek to figure out if you're worth promoting  try to set up a meeting and then re-address the situation. But expecting them to do all that before a denial would be a bit strange.

Where's the like button?

[senseofeven]

This goes without saying that if you want to play an asshole leader go ahead but there will be consequences like how it has happened in the past.

I can see everyone is trying to push at minions and leaders on who should put out to who and it gives me the impression of the old bane called entitlement.

Let's keep it on context of playing this mud as a game and by no means it should be compared to real life because I think that would be disastrous. This being a game and the role play of playing a terrible leader isn't condoned as long as staff knows it is your concept and it is accepted.

I have played with a very incompetent leader who seemed to wear down the entire clan in another game but I reckon the arm role calls are looking for a specific role and to do a specific thing and thus taking on the role means more responsibility and more wcutiny from minions because they are watching how you perform as a leader.

You wanna succeed get rid of that entitlement pride it takes both sides to work together and it doesn't take a lot of energy to just pop a pm.. This does not apply to nobles and templar of course. They are designed to be entitled.

Sadly. Anything goes in a mud and it goes go your way. It's always the one who plays more that will have more influence and obvious handicap to off peak.

And I don't think staff would mind if the leader decides to lift so restriction as long as you let them know. Cause from what this thread would and hopefully allow staff to give a little more reign for leaders to me bad decisions.

Edit: decided to withdraw my last statement because it's detrimental and is in no way of complaint for recent happenings.

[BadSkeelz]

I'm honestly confused. What has aeglaeca said that seems unsympathetic to off-peakers? It's all seemed pretty reasonable to me.

[Malken]

This sounds like some very specific complain about an event or a character in particular, no?

[bcw81]

Guys, civil, no flame bait, ect.

[Revenant]

What I can condense, Aegleaca, from her broken english, and this is just an attempt at translation, maybe you need to really weigh your priorities. What is it YOU want from your current position? Do you want to headbutt everything you see? Well, you can do that, but it's a tired strategy. It's not like we haven't seen it before, it's not like it's anything new, what's really interesting is new leaders with new strategies, this is what we like to see, as players, people who shake things up, redefine, and yes, you could do this, easily, but you must alter your approach, I'll quickly stop playing if you start alienating people. Honestly, it's been a hobby for a few years? Psht. Don't be boring, because I know you can do better.

[Talia]

And I don't think staff would mind if the leader decides to lift so restriction as long as you let them know. Cause from what this thread would and hopefully allow staff to give a little more reign for leaders to me bad decisions.

Clan rules are clan rules. Staff expects to see them enforced whether for on-peak or off-peak players. If you don't like the rules of a particular clan, unless you are actually playing a sponsored role, you don't have to play in that clan. It's your choice to do so, and if you make the choice to play in a clan, it's expected that you will follow the rules or bear the consequences.

What I can condense, Aegleaca, from her broken english, and this is just an attempt at translation, maybe you need to really weigh your priorities. What is it YOU want from your current position? Do you want to headbutt everything you see? Well, you can do that, but it's a tired strategy. It's not like we haven't seen it before, it's not like it's anything new, what's really interesting is new leaders with new strategies, this is what we like to see, as players, people who shake things up, redefine, and yes, you could do this, easily, but you must alter your approach, I'll quickly stop playing if you start alienating people. Honestly, it's been a hobby for a few years? Psht. Don't be boring, because I know you can do better.

It is completely inappropriate to target your remarks in this thread at another player in this manner. You need to stop.

In fact, everyone needs to stop discussing possibly current events in game in only thinly-veiled terms. You know what, fuck it. Thread locked because it's gotten super dumb.