Discussion for new character restrictions to the city-states

[Thunkkin]

I know that races other then human tend to be too hard for new players...But if you see how many people do make first PCs a race other then human to start then you see the number of people who would likely move on without ever trying the game if they were restricted to human to start.

Back in the day (95? 96?) when I first started to check out muds, my basic procedure was to log into a mud and create either the largest or the smallest character that I could. So, my first Arm character was a half giant who wandered around trying doors and then got chased around Allanak by a templar and finally arrested. Granted, these were my sensibilities as a 16 year old, who just wanted to play a monster that killed things or stole things. And at bottom, wanted to be something other than myself. If the me of 1996 was logging into Arm for the first time today, he'd definitely play a c-elf assassin in the rinth as first choice Sigh. But then, I was instantly hooked on permadeath games and was never able to get into non-permadeath muds after Arm and Harshlands.

Edit: I still think it's a good idea to keep first time PCs away from Luirs/Red Storm.

[Nyr]

Not liking it. While both Nak and Tuluk have plenty of attractions, the first area that sold me on armageddon was the 'rinth. I may be peculiar in that regard, but there you go.

First area that sold you, sure, but was your first character from there?  We're just looking at the first PC here.

Just like with races. Playing a human is motherfucking strongly recommended, but it shouldn't be enforced. It's better to die playing what you want then live playing some shit like human.

In this case we're looking at gaining and retaining new players that point to poor starting locations for new players.  We've done individual case studies on stuff from time to time.  Here are the previous things we've looked at related to that.

#nope #noway #hellno #limitingpeopleisnotgoingtohelp #iknowpeoplewhodon'twanttoplayhmans

Essentially, here is my argument:

-I- started here, playing as an elf. I enjoyed my experience immensely. I started in Luirs. I enjoyed my experience immensely.

Your experience was not the norm.  You picked a non-recommended race and started in a place that would be difficult for that race to get by, even for a veteran player.  (Elves are despised, city-elves can't navigate the desert nearly as well as a desert elf, elves can't ride, elves have a tribal mentality, etc).  The fact that it worked for you isn't statistically relevant, though it is very cool. We're aiming to improve retention for new players, and we can't count on outliers to make that magic moment happen.

So how often do people point to Luir's and Red Storm anyway? 
The runlog from about September 15 for pointing to Luir's Outpost successfully shows that only 16 PCs have done so.  Of those, only two PCs were first characters for newbies.  Neither of them rolled nonhumans. Neither of these two newbies are still playing actively (though one is still logging in sporadically).

The runlog from about September 16 for pointing to Red Storm Village successfully shows that 39 PCs have done so.  Of these, eleven PCs were first characters for newbies, with seven of them being nonhumans.  One of these eleven newbies is still playing actively (though one other is still logging in sporadically).  There are two others that have started fairly recently so their results are not significant.

Conversely, in the same period, you have close to 150 points to Allanak and close to 130 for Tuluk.  The sheer playerbase numbers are higher there, with greater chances for interaction from PCs.  We'd probably want to focus new players to those locations to try and get them hooked more securely.

Right, mine wasn't the norm, but I don't think you should hard-code limit newbies to picking one specific thing. If they "want" to try that, sure, but give them big warnings in chargen.

Like, big ones. Or, initially if it's their first PC, make it hardcoded so they Point Newbie first, and then that can give them a little backdrop like what are recommended things to do. That would be a way to handle it.

"We highly recommend players choose Allanak or Tuluk, and starting as a human in either of these cities, due to the fact that non-human races have strong prejudices against them and will find play more difficult."

I laid out numbers that pretty much shoot holes in your desires on this matter, at least numbers from the last month or so.  I'll continue to review this periodically in the future, but here's what those numbers say in terms of percentages:

Amount of retained new players that pointed to Luir's as their first role:  0 out of 2.  That's 0%.
Amount of retained new players that pointed to Red Storm as their first role:  1 out of 11.  That's about 9.1%.  

Okay, so that's a pretty abysmal rate of retention.  Why is the rate so low?  It is probably a few things.

1.  Fewer players start in those two spots.  (Evidence?  The runlogs.)
2.  With fewer players starting there, there is a lessened chance of interaction.
3.  Both locations have lowered clan support structures.  (Allanak and Tuluk both have several clans each that support more players overall.)

Numbers aren't up yet for October, but at this time there are about 14 or 15 players that are new as of this month that have put in more than 20 hours of play AND have played as recently as this week.  Of these players, every single one of them pointed to Allanak or Tuluk for their first PC, except one that pointed to Luir's.  This one is (as mentioned above) sporadically playing, and that's great.  (Guess what?  They aren't in Luir's anymore!)

I am not saying Luir's and Red Storm (and even the 'rinth) are hellholes that no player should ever play.
I am saying that if we are looking to retain players, we need to look at the metrics that got our retained players here in the first place.  The big key seems to be player interaction and a rewarding experience.  It is more likely that there will be player interaction in the city-states.  We should do what we can to guide players towards that interaction.

Making this change is aiming at low-hanging fruit.  It's an easy change, it should net some results, and the impact is fairly low to new players.  If it nets us even two or three new retained players per month, that's a significant increase.  (Even one would be a good increase.)  We're also adding some verbiage to the introductory documentation that mentions peak times and the GDB, two other big indicators for getting new players plugged in.

If we lose a few potential players that absolutely want to start (note:  start, not play--they can go there if they really want to with that first PC) in Luir's or Red Storm or the 'rinth...we're not really getting them now anyway.  They started there and quit playing the vast majority of the time. 

[BleakOne]

I like it.

Lets people see that the game isn't dead or inactive, which is what people may think when they log into Luirs' or Red Storm during the regular times with no other PCs about. Since it's only for the first character, it's not really for a long time either.

As for races or guilds being restricted, that may have more of a negative effect as X-D mentioned. People like having choices to create who they want.

As for the 'most of the game sucks' comment... well... 

[Kryos]

From a game design perspective, its pretty commonly acknowledged you've got about ten minutes to catch a new player with something interesting, then you've got an hour to hook them.  Most modern games are built in this concept, by and large.

Remember Skyrim, the first quest?  How amazingly alive did the world feel during it?  Did any other quest really live up to the gripping chaos and amazing that was the destruction by the dragon? Skyrim didn't front load a good deal of resources on the first quest on a whim, they were trying to hook you.

Even in vanilla, WoW's chargen starting quests were far more involved and interesting then "kill 10 wigglywuts".  They tried to ship you off the more beautiful, and script heavy places of the world.  You got to be the hand of the king.  So on and so forth.

Point is, the more likely you are to give a new player a dose of the game as it should be, the more likely you are to have drawn their interest.  I think its a good decision to put players towards starting in a major population center.  Its not the option to slip right into a major clan, but, its still playing on the understanding.

[Dalmeth]

What makes you think that?

Because your announcement is a reduction in service.  Why cut off new players from content if the content is not pernicious?

You may not say it outright, but you are reducing the consciousness of these areas as playable.

In addition, this is only a new element in a pattern of reduced area of effect, but while this is a common trend in any administrative body, it is never really very effective.

Focusing on the cities will do nothing for player retention, because if you look at the numbers for September 2013...

Nyr stated that the  number of points to Red Storm were 39.
Nyr stated that the number of those PCs still playing were 1.

Nyr stated that the number of points to Allanak were close to 150.
Nyr stated that the number of points to Tuluk were close to 130.

Actual number of players retained for September 2013 as stated in the October 2013 Report sit at 7.

So, let's split that up, with Tuluk and Allanak taking up the remainder evenly (3 each) :

Red Storm has a retention rate of 2.26% for the month of September 2013.
Allanak has a retention rate of close to 2.00% for the month of September 2013.
Tuluk has a retention rate of close to 2.3o% for the month of September 2013.

See?  I can massage the numbers to support my argument, too!

They also seem to say that your efforts will do almost nothing to increase player retention.  I find the effect here is nearly equal to retaining player options (almost negligible), which I am in favor of.

[Cutthroat]

The admission from staff is not that non-major city areas suck, but that player density is extremely low in Red Storm, Luir's and the Labyrinth compared to Allanak and Tuluk, which is a well-known fact to regular players but not to newbies.

Newbies have a better chance of being hooked to a roleplaying game if they get player interaction, not just during September 2013 (although that's the only month I could find numbers for points to certain areas), but generally speaking. In any case, the numbers and argument you provided are a bit flawed because it doesn't take into account that some of those 38 people who pointed to Red Storm and didn't stick around, might have stuck around if they pointed to Allanak or Tuluk. You're just looking at people who did stay in the game when we really want to figure out more information about those who didn't stay (and how to improve their experience to be more in line with the people who did stay, so that they might have stayed too).

Our game is a niche within a niche within a niche. We are dealing with big numbers compared to other RPIs, but really small ones compared to other MUDs, and other RPGs. We're dealing with recruiting regular players in the single digits every month because an RPI is a very specific type of game. Even if very few players have pointed to a low-density area and then quit the game forever because they couldn't find anyone to play with, would it not be worth it to prevent that from happening in the future?

[BleakOne]

Also, it's not like they're making the other starting locations Karma based or anything - it's just the first character. Most first characters barely last more than a RL week, it that, and those that do last longer have plenty of chance for travel if they really like the look of another area.

I highly doubt anyone would decide not to play based on the fact they couldn't spawn in one of the locations in a game. I can see, however, someone logging in on a bad day in Red Storm, seeing nobody for RL hours, and deciding the game's dead and quitting.

[manonfire]

I don't the restrictions. Armageddon always had a very libertarian streak to it, which is what hooked me all those years ago. If a new player likes the idea of Red Storm or Luirs, they should be able to start there and have that be their first experience.

Restriction isn't the answer. Information is. Big, bold, capital letters next to Allanak and Tuluk stating STRONGLY RECOMMENDED FOR NEW PLAYERS.

This seems very nanny state to me.

[Cutthroat]

Restriction isn't the answer. Information is. Big, bold, capital letters next to Allanak and Tuluk stating STRONGLY RECOMMENDED FOR NEW PLAYERS.

Normally I'd be inclined to agree with this, but the thing is that the information's been out there for a while. It's in the newbie guide and it's in what helpers say in the helper chat. It's on the GDB from time to time. The only place it isn't spelled out yet is in the actual game, in the Hall of Kings, so that info gets missed by the sort of new player that wants to jump in first and read the docs later. Arguably it would be good to have it there though; even if this change sticks it's a good reference for players creating their second+ characters.

[Delirium]

Spell it out in the Hall of Kings then.

[manonfire]

Restriction isn't the answer. Information is. Big, bold, capital letters next to Allanak and Tuluk stating STRONGLY RECOMMENDED FOR NEW PLAYERS.

Normally I'd be inclined to agree with this, but the thing is that the information's been out there for a while. It's in the newbie guide and it's in what helpers say in the helper chat. It's on the GDB from time to time. The only place it isn't spelled out yet is in the actual game, in the Hall of Kings, so that info gets missed by the sort of new player that wants to jump in first and read the docs later. Arguably it would be good to have it there though; even if this change sticks it's a good reference for players creating their second+ characters.

Problem is, not everybody reads the helpfiles, not everybody talks to the helpers, and not everybody reads the GDB. Everybody goes through the Hall of Kings.

[Cutthroat]

No argument there. I'm just wondering why that was never tried first.

[spicemustflow]

Not liking it. While both Nak and Tuluk have plenty of attractions, the first area that sold me on armageddon was the 'rinth. I may be peculiar in that regard, but there you go.

First area that sold you, sure, but was your first character from there?  We're just looking at the first PC here.

No, my third character was rinthi. My two Nakkis didn't live long and didn't have a really good time despite the area being recommended for new players.

I get what you're trying to say, a new player may underestimate the hardships that await when they roll up a Red Storm elven pickpocket/woodcutter, then they think the mud is shit and move on. But that problem would better be solved by WARNINGS that the area in question is not for newbies.

As an example, the only reason I gave Shadows of Isuldur a chance was that I was allowed to play an orc from Mordor as my first character. If I had to be a human hunter from wherever else, I wouldn't have bothered to create even that one character. Not everyone who checks out Arm is a complete newb to muds.

[whitt]

As an example, the only reason I gave Shadows of Isuldur a chance was that I was allowed to play an orc from Mordor as my first character.

Just curious, being very familiar with the average number of blackblood players around at any given time, how long did you stick around with your snaga?

[Rahnevyn]

If a new player likes the idea of Red Storm or Luirs, they should be able to start there and have that be their first experience.

The idea of those locations doesn't always match the reality, which is that you may not meet another PC at all in those areas, especially if you play off peak. We want to present new players with the best, most interactive experience we can, which right now is in one of the cities. If they hate it, well, Red Storm is a scrab away.

[Lizzie]

If a new player likes the idea of Red Storm or Luirs, they should be able to start there and have that be their first experience.

The idea of those locations doesn't always match the reality, which is that you may not meet another PC at all in those areas, especially if you play off peak. We want to present new players with the best, most interactive experience we can, which right now is in one of the cities. If they hate it, well, Red Storm is a scrab away.

Not only that. But if they pick Allanak, and they don't like Allanak, they could just *walk* to Red Storm. Yes it's risky, but compared to starting out in Red Storm during a "tremendous sandstorm" with low (or no) direction sense skill, no (or low) ride skill, no (or low) forage skill, and enough sids for armor OR a mount, but not both...

I'd say they'd be better off starting in Allanak and walking. The risk of not having fun playing a Red Stormer as your very first character, is greater than the risk of dying when you decide Allanak isn't for you and walking to Red Storm.

[Nyr]

What makes you think that?

Because your announcement is a reduction in service.  Why cut off new players from content if the content is not pernicious?

Because these players (if receiving some service) aren't sticking to the game and this is a broad stroke to attempt to retain some of them.

You may not say it outright, but you are reducing the consciousness of these areas as playable.

In addition, this is only a new element in a pattern of reduced area of effect, but while this is a common trend in any administrative body, it is never really very effective.

I'm willing to look and see why you think this is the case.

Focusing on the cities will do nothing for player retention, because if you look at the numbers for September 2013...

Nyr stated that the  number of points to Red Storm were 39.
Nyr stated that the number of those PCs still playing were 1.

Nyr stated that the number of points to Allanak were close to 150.
Nyr stated that the number of points to Tuluk were close to 130.

Well, you're grabbing at numbers but not grabbing the right ones or grabbing them in the right context.  On October 26, I said the runlog from September 16 to October 26 was such that 39 people pointed to Red Storm.  This wasn't for September 2013.  This was for nearly a 40 day time period, outside of the usual scope of review for monthly metrics.  The only thing you got right here is that 39 people pointed to Red Storm during that time.

Of those 39, 11 were newbies.
So the other 28 were not the first PCs on the account and can be discounted as they do not apply.

Of those 11, only 1 was playing actively at that time.

The retention rate is not what you think it is.

Actual number of players retained for September 2013 as stated in the October 2013 Report sit at 7.

Yes, for September as a whole.

So, let's split that up, with Tuluk and Allanak taking up the remainder evenly (3 each) :

Split up October's numbers for September?  That'd be a mistake...the only thing we tracked in the following month was "how many folks from the month before stuck" that year.  We aren't tracking that now in that way.  But go on...

Red Storm has a retention rate of 2.26% for the month of September 2013.
Allanak has a retention rate of close to 2.00% for the month of September 2013.
Tuluk has a retention rate of close to 2.3o% for the month of September 2013.

Actually, if we look at the data for September and October together for the retained (at the time) accounts, we would find a 0% retention rate for RS, Luir's, or Labyrinth.

So here you're looking at the retention rate of all new accounts for September 2013.  I estimated that using a different method last year, but let's see the actual data for September and not October.  You may have looked there but I want to be sure you're looking at the right numbers.
Source:  September Update 2013

So we had 434 brand new accounts created that year.

Of those, 78 actually made it into the game. This is not a retention rate, it's the pass-fail rate or whatever you want to call it.  Those people made enough effort to a) create an app and b) get approved and c) log into the game and actually do anything, even if it's quitting out immediately.  That's almost 18%.

Of those 78, there were only 8 players that were still logging in as recently as 5 days prior to the report.  That's about 10% retention of players that actually log in.  If you compare it to the amount of new accounts, it's less than 2%.  That'd be a disingenuous argument of statistics since the other 356 players either didn't log in, didn't get approved, etc.  They didn't meet the bar, even if the bar is "logging into the game."

Now, that data is from September 2013, but I can (at the bare minimum) see where those 78 players' characters are from for that month.

The top 8?  All pointed to Allanak or Tuluk.  Period.  So we had no retention for September for anyone pointing to Red Storm, Luir's, or the 'rinth.
The next 10?  Allanak or Tuluk.  Only one pointed to Luir's.
The next 20?  Allanak or Tuluk.  Only one pointed to the Labyrinth.

At this point we're getting below the 2 hour range of play.  That is to say, these players below did not even put in two hours of time into the game before stopping.

The rest?  We start seeing more people from other areas.  14 for Luir's or RSV, 1 for the rinth.

Anyway, back to retention rates.  Here is how we estimated the monthly retention rate:

player started in month X and is still playing in month Y

So there are actually more players than before that started in September, played a lot, and played into October, but let's go with the original 7 (not the 8 that were top accounts for September, but the 7 that were top accounts for September and also retained through October).

Red Storm retention rate:  0 players.  So that's 0% of the 7 (the top players retained month over month), 0% of the 78 (the players that actually created accounts and logged in even once that month), and 0% of the 434 (the players that failed to be approved, log in, or do anything more than create an account and finish the where survey).
Luir's retention rate:  0 players.  See above.
Rinth retention rate:  0 players.  See above.
Tuluk retention rate:  4 players.  So that's 57% of the 7, 5% of the 78, and not even 1% of the 434.
Allanak retention rate:  3 players.  So that's 43% of the 7, almost 4% of the 78, and not even 1% of the 434.

Essentially we are making the argument that the players that stick aren't actually picking these places the majority of the time, anyway, and the players that do not stick ARE picking these places on a regular basis.

See?  I can massage the numbers to support my argument, too!

I understand that you disagree with the idea that this will improve anything.  It's a valid point.  However, I suppose we'll see if it works or not, and we can always revert if it is detrimental.  We won't know unless we try.

[manonfire]

If a new player likes the idea of Red Storm or Luirs, they should be able to start there and have that be their first experience.

The idea of those locations doesn't always match the reality, which is that you may not meet another PC at all in those areas, especially if you play off peak. We want to present new players with the best, most interactive experience we can, which right now is in one of the cities. If they hate it, well, Red Storm is a scrab away.

Your argument works both ways. If they decide they hate Red Storm, Allanak is just a scrab away.

What about Luirs? Luirs is nothing like Red Storm, but they're being restricted for the same reasons. I don't know what the current PC population of Luirs is, but everytime I roll through there, I -always- bump into somebody. Would you recommend to a new player that wanted to start in Luirs and join Kurac to start in Tuluk and walk instead?

This whole idea strikes me as completely unnecessary. Like I said before, restriction is not the answer, information is. If you want to impress upon new players that they should probably start in Allanak or Tuluk to ensure the best experience, make it glaringly obvious in the Hall of Kings.

If your aim is player retention, there are more efficient ways to go about it, but that's another thread entirely.

[Barzalene]

This isn't a matter I've thought on at length. I don't know if it's good or bad. One possible positive is logging in with that second PC and its like you get presents in the form of three new places to try.

[Nyr]

And again, the best news about any change like this is that we can measure results and see what it nets us at all, and if it warrants reverting back or making further changes, we can do that.

[Rahnevyn]

Your argument works both ways. If they decide they hate Red Storm, Allanak is just a scrab away.

Unfortunately, new players who log in to unpopulated areas, find nothing to do and no one to RP with, and leave, aren't always deciding "man, Red Storm is boring" -- the fear here is they decide "man, this game is boring". Walking to a new location is gonna be hard for someone who can't even navigate a city. And while I said another location was "just a scrab away", there's also the fact that many new players coming from other MUDs aren't used to a restrictive approval process. They put a lot of effort into their first application, and a common complaint I've seen is "wait, so when I die I have to make a whole new character and go through all that again?" In other words, dying to try something new isn't an option that occurs to every newbie, and that's fine. The goal here is to do our best to hook them on their first PC.

What about Luirs? Luirs is nothing like Red Storm, but they're being restricted for the same reasons. I don't know what the current PC population of Luirs is, but everytime I roll through there, I -always- bump into somebody. Would you recommend to a new player that wanted to start in Luirs and join Kurac to start in Tuluk and walk instead?

We do know what the current PC population of Luir's is, and while it's not always low at peak times, it's not a sure thing. Also, at least from what I've seen, very few players start in Luir's with the express intent of joining Kurac and wouldn't even give the game a try otherwise. If someone really was that set on joining Kurac, I'd suggest starting in Tuluk and hanging out at the Tooth - it's pretty easy to find Kuraci PCs up there. And if they hire you, they'll cart you back down with them, so you don't have to risk the walk on your own.

If your aim is player retention, there are more efficient ways to go about it, but that's another thread entirely.

Feel free to start one, I guess, if you really feel there are more efficient ways to help hook newbies. But keep in mind, there's a lot of ways to judge efficiency, and definitely one way we need to judge an idea is in terms of its cost in staff resources (both in implementation and support.) We feel two of five starting locations are more effective at supporting new players than the other three. We can cheaply funnel new players towards what we feel is the best experience for them, or we can expensively invest lots of time trying to figure out why new players in the other three don't seem to stick as well and address that.

So to the argument that some people fear this will actually lower new player retention if newbies can't start where they want to start, I guess the answer is: we'll see! If it does, we can re-evaluate. My bet is we'll see more newbies sticking around as a result of this change. Only time will tell. As to the argument that restricting player choice is awful and we're being a nanny state or something, well, I guess I just have to point out that Armageddon has had a fairly rigid and codified set of restrictions on who (race/role) and what (guild) players can play for over a decade. This change very very narrowly extends those restrictions to where (origin), as well, for the very first character only. However, I think new players coming here looking to express their freedoms and play absolutely whatever they want probably stopped when they saw their background had to be approved before they could play and never looked back.

[manonfire]

If we're restricting starting areas based on low player count, why aren't we restricting Tuluk as well? 

Aaaaanyway, I guess we'll see how it goes. I'm interested to see the how the numbers shake out in the months to come.

[ShaLeah]

I'm curious, does the chargen remove what you're not permitted like it does for races and guilds? Ojos qué no ven, corazón qué no siente.

[Nyr]

I'm curious, does the chargen remove what you're not permitted like it does for races and guilds? Ojos qué no ven, corazón qué no siente.

I'm not clear on what you are asking...

[ShaLeah]

I'm curious, does the chargen remove what you're not permitted like it does for races and guilds? Ojos qué no ven, corazón qué no siente.

I'm not clear on what you are asking...

You know how if you don't have that karma won't see delf or hg or Viv etc? When get into the HoK with your first char, does the map only show Nak or Tuluk?