Discussion for new character restrictions to the city-states

[icewindsong]

I haven't even applied for my 1st character yet, and thought I'd comment on this as well.  Players don't like restrictions   even when its for their own good, many people want to be free to make their own mistakes and learn from them.  Some may like being put right into the pool to start with so they can dive in to the rp.  Others might want to sit on the side and paddle their feet a while first to get used to it, which could mean starting in a low population area where they don't feel pressured and can learn at their own rate.

For myself, I was considering either a ranger or merchant to start.  I've chosen the latter to pursue the idea of playing a chef, though I'm still a little vague on wether I should look for a noble sponsor right away or put in some learning time with a merchant house and learn the crunchy skill parts before moving on to that goal.  But I digress.  If I had chosen the ranger I wanted to be a nomad, and probably not start in one of the big cities, but with that particular clan or tribe.  It would have been very disappointing to set that up, apply for it, and then only have the big cities as a choice to enter the game.  Especially if it was by surprise.  As it stands, the only reason I know about is already is because I registered with the gdb and have been reading and posting, and someone commented in an answer to me that I'd have to pick one of the two cities.  That made me look around more, to find this thread.

What others have been saying that I do agree with is - tell people about these things and make it obvious and up-front, not hidden somewhere.  I have been working out my application though I haven't finished yet, and I've read what I would expect most new players to read: the Quickstart page, and various other info pages accessible from the main web page.  I can tell you that Liurs and Red Storm are made to look like interesting choices from their write-ups, and that there's no mention of them being a bad place to start for a newbie in either city pages or the Quickstart document.  There IS the quick tip: "You're more likely to encounter other players in the city-states (Allanak and Tuluk)" but that doesn't have the impact you seem to be looking for.  I would suggest leaving the options open, but putting in all locations (Quickstart, city info, character application form i.e. before sending app, and this hall of kings place) a statement like:

'rinth:  Beware!  This location is dangerous and intended for experienced players.  Those new to the world are likely to have swift, messy deaths! (You have been warned)

Red Storm and Luirs:  Warning!  Not recommended for new players - low player-population in these areas makes RP hard to come by at most times, and help nearly impossible.  New players are STRONGLY RECOMMENDED to start in Allanak or Tuluk.

If it had those, in those places, then new players are going to see the info before they even start working out their characters.  Then they're informed, and if they choose to start in one of those places for whatever reason then they're not going to blame the game if they die of thist, alone and penniless in a hole, and will likely keep playing and make their 2nd character in the recommended area.  Or if they survive in the area and launch from obscurity into the world, then they have a greater sense of accomplishment to spur them on.  They'll probably move on to a big city soon enough, but this way they weren't ever forced.

I know this restriction is only for someone's first character, which according to other posts I've read has a life-expectancy of about 3 hours.  I hope to live longer than that myself.  I think most new players are likely to think "what, I cant be what I want, or choose the city I want? screw that"

Personally I think 'sink or swim' is the best way to learn, and in games I almost always choose the hardest option to play first, knowing it will take longer to get used-to, but when I do everything else will be easy to understand or do by comparison.  In this case, that is choosing the role that will require a lot more roleplay to get anywhere.  I don't know if I'm up to a heavy roleplay role, but I'm going to try. 

[MeTekillot]

You sure do mention not having played yet an awful lot.

[Marauder Moe]

Be nice.



That said, I strongly suspect we lost more new players from them being bored by not finding people to play with in obscure areas (and/or being killed quickly in the 'rinth), than we will from the disappointment of having to play one character in Allanak/Tuluk first.

Also, I should note that you can't apply for any of human tribal clans without explicit approval first, and given the intricate and unique cultures of them it is unlikely a newer player would be granted such permission.

HOWEVER, you can still select a tribal background during character creation, noting that they're from a small virtual tribe you yourself made up.  You can then also start said character in Allanak or Tuluk.

Welcome!  And good luck.

[Rahnevyn]

As Moe mentioned, there's nothing that prevents a new character from starting as a ranger/nomad. You don't even have to be from Allanak or Tuluk as a hometown, you need only start there in-game. There are a lot of benefits to a new player who may start in those locations versus, say, the Labyrinth or Red Storm, and in general they're going to offer a new player a better experience. If the first thing a character would like to do is hop on a mount and ride to Luir's, we don't stop them. But by starting in areas we can reasonably expect to be populated by other players both on- and off-peak, there's a greater likelihood newbies will stumble across another character and get caught up in some roleplay, which is really the best way to get people hooked on the game.

[CodeMaster]

As Moe mentioned, there's nothing that prevents a new character from starting as a ranger/nomad. You don't even have to be from Allanak or Tuluk as a hometown, you need only start there in-game. There are a lot of benefits to a new player who may start in those locations versus, say, the Labyrinth or Red Storm, and in general they're going to offer a new player a better experience. If the first thing a character would like to do is hop on a mount and ride to Luir's, we don't stop them. But by starting in areas we can reasonably expect to be populated by other players both on- and off-peak, there's a greater likelihood newbies will stumble across another character and get caught up in some roleplay, which is really the best way to get people hooked on the game.

Just to pipe up...  I would recommend being 'from' Allanak or Tuluk to a new player.  Otherwise they don't get access to the 'directions' command for the location they start the game in, unfortunately.

(directions command is awesome).

[icewindsong]

You sure do mention not having played yet an awful lot.

I'm trying to say it in my first post in any given thread, as a reference for people reading, because I'm often making assumptions or guesses about how things work that may be wrong in one or more ways.  I'm certainly not new to playing in general.  I started with several rpgs in high school, and then played in text-based games online before there were graphical MMO's, and I've played or at least tried most of the major MMO's that have been around.  I still do tabletop gaming, and am a venture-lieutenant for pathfinder society.  What I have not done is play a very heavy roleplay role (in any setting) nor a perma-death game of this sort, which is a quality that makes me a little nervous, I admit.  It just seems like it would be a real shame if someone puts months of good rp into a role, only to die by accidently fleeing into a DT or walk off a cliff when their cat jumps on the keyboard.  Anyway, I make the comment as an explanation, to avoid a reaction of "... how could you not know that? lol, noob!" if I'm particularly off-base in one of my guesses.  I can probably stop though.  As that reaction exemplifies, I think its mostly the same set of people actively responding in the different threads, so my noobishness is well established already.

[Gimfalisette]

It just seems like it would be a real shame if someone puts months of good rp into a role, only to die by accidently fleeing into a DT or walk off a cliff when their cat jumps on the keyboard.  Anyway, I make the comment as an explanation, to avoid a reaction of "... how could you not know that? lol, noob!" if I'm particularly off-base in one of my guesses.

Few things:

1. We were all noobs once and did really dumb stuff. So I think players in general are pretty empathetic on this point. That is to say, just because you're a noob and do dumb stuff doesn't mean we think you are dumb. ('cause that'd be the pot calling the kettle black, amirite.)

2. Veteran players do dumb stuff, too. Sometimes that's code-related, sometimes it's related to playing drunk or high, sometimes it's the aforementioned cat, sometimes it's just not noticing things, sometimes it's your character making bad IC decisions. Doing dumb stuff is part of the game, and accidents happen. It may make players want to smash their keyboards in frustration, but eh, them's the breaks. Many a long-lived PC has died to exactly the kind of dumb thing you cite.

3. You can't be prepared for everything in the game, at all times, in perpetuity. And if you were, wouldn't that make it kind of boring? I know plenty of stuff about the game but the players continue to surprise and delight, which is the point of an RPI.

[Marauder Moe]

It just seems like it would be a real shame if someone puts months of good rp into a role, only to die by accidently fleeing into a DT or walk off a cliff when their cat jumps on the keyboard.

Quick thought adjustment: you don't put roleplaying into a role, you get roleplaying out of it.  RP isn't an investment, it's the reward.


It does suck when a character dies, but mostly for the lost potential, not for "wasted" time with them.  I've been way more upset from losing 2 week old characters with their whole lives ahead of them than losing a 2+ year characters who'd done and seen so many things.

[FantasyWriter]

It just seems like it would be a real shame if someone puts months of good rp into a role, only to die by accidently fleeing into a DT or walk off a cliff when their cat jumps on the keyboard.

Quick thought adjustment: you don't put roleplaying into a role, you get roleplaying out of it.  RP isn't an investment, it's the reward.


It does suck when a character dies, but mostly for the lost potential, not for "wasted" time with them.  I've been way more upset from losing 2 week old characters with their whole lives ahead of them than losing a 2+ year characters who'd done and seen so many things.

I'm with Moe.
I'm much more satisfied loosing a character who has been around for a while that I have enjoyed spending time with than loosing one a day or three out of character generation.

[Harmless]

I also agree with the character starting point restrictions. You may not like it on face value, but the rule came from LOTS of feedback from the playerbase over years that new players start in zones where they don't get to meet people and then they end up being lost to that. Whereas if they had started in Allanak or Tuluk they would be much more likely to find interaction and get a feel for the game, right away.

It's only for the first character, and as has been said, this doesn't mean the background of the character has to be that of a city-dweller. It's just where you start. If you want to explore the world, nothing is stopping you from leaving the gates. Your chances of finding a travelling partner is also much greater if you leave from the main two cities.

[icewindsong]

It just seems like it would be a real shame if someone puts months of good rp into a role, only to die by accidently fleeing into a DT or walk off a cliff when their cat jumps on the keyboard.

Quick thought adjustment: you don't put roleplaying into a role, you get roleplaying out of it.  RP isn't an investment, it's the reward.


It does suck when a character dies, but mostly for the lost potential, not for "wasted" time with them.  I've been way more upset from losing 2 week old characters with their whole lives ahead of them than losing a 2+ year characters who'd done and seen so many things.

I suppose I do see it slightly differently.  I agree that the roleplaying is the reward of playing, in my comment the investment was the time.  This is where I differ in view: that I don't think a few months would be enough.  I see roleplaying a character as akin to writing a story.  The protagonist usually starts out weak or ignorant in stories, and is shaped by events and an epic journey into a hero or accomplishing noteworthy deeds.  I would see a long-lived character to be like progressing into sequels where, after the original adventure, the author is tacking on "... and they did a few more things, and it was fun" in however many installations of 'more' there might be.  But a character dying too soon... 2 weeks would be like reading just the first few pages.  Significant emotional investment comes later, when one has had time to really figure out who the character is through play.  At least my pnp gaming characters have always been this way.. I write up their personality and background and make plans, but they take on a life of their own through play and it doesn't come right away.  In a couple of months hopefully I would have met a variety of people and be starting to explore the potential relationships with them (business, personal, antithetical, and so on).  In terms of a story, dying then would be like ending the Hobbit in chapter 3.  I'm going to enjoy my rp regardless, but I would definitely find it worse to lose a character after a few months than a few days because of that emotional investment in the character, and plans for rp with others that won't have a chance to happen.

That's my view anyway, but it is based on experience with other games.  Maybe I'll find its different in Armageddon.

[Reiloth]

In Armageddon, you are not the omniscient narrator. The story that unfolds for you is in many ways out of your control. You are the passenger on the roller coaster. The story you write is akin to novels where each chapter is frm one characters perspective, except as the "reader" we cannot read the other chapters in the book that are from other characters point of view.

Ginka is the author, and Staff are the editors. The tale you make will always have an end. Such is life. A PC might live a year IG, five, even twenty, but they will eventually succumb to death.

[Gimfalisette]

But a character dying too soon... 2 weeks would be like reading just the first few pages....In a couple of months hopefully I would have met a variety of people and be starting to explore the potential relationships with them

The average lifespan of a PC in Armageddon is about 2 weeks. (I did the math once.) If your PC lives a couple of months, most of the other PCs they will have met will be dead or stored or inactive. A handful will still be around. Your RP plans will be messed up by this factor more than any other. E.g., if you plan to have another PC killed, they will often just disappear into the desert instead, presumably getting eaten by a scrab.

If your PC makes it to a year, you'll find yourself regularly complaining IC that "everyone I knew is dead."

Generally speaking, relationships of any kind between PCs don't take a couple of months to get moving (My own personal goal is always to have someone wanting to kill my PC within an RL week.)

[Nyr]

icewindsong:  for what it's worth, the quickstart does say:

For your first character, you will only be able to start in Allanak or Tuluk. These are the two most populous places in the game and you are much more likely to run into another player in these locations. Additionally, we highly recommend that you choose to play a character from Tuluk in Tuluk, or a character from Allanak in Allanak--as mentioned above, there may be in-character consequences for being from one city and starting in another!

I think the intention is that if one were going to use the quickstart guide while making/prior to creating a PC, they'd use it and go through the "intro" pages in order.  Origin area tells you what that's about, and lets you know that your first PC is limited to starting in one of two areas.  Just below that you have the background (which is next in character generation).  In that document it links you to What You Know, detailing the other areas of the game and what you'd know about them if you were playing a PC from there.

If this notification needs to be more visible farther up the line, that can be changed, I think.  As it is, the What You Know page linked in the background entry does not appear to link to the individual What You Know pages that give more information, and that probably needs to be fixed.

[ShaLeah]

I'd like to see if the numbers that have stayed have changed since implementation in a considerable way. Any way to do that?

[X-D]

I just want to comment on the mentioning of "DT".
This is something that for the most part does not exist in arm.
There are a few areas...but at least one of them is well documented...and gives plenty of warning of HEY...IF YOU KEEP GOING YOU WILL DIE....
not like other muds where you only know it is dt after it gets you.   

[williamson]

I just want to comment on the mentioning of "DT".

When I see "DT", I'm thinking defensive tackle. What are you using that to mean?

[Nyr]

I just want to comment on the mentioning of "DT".

When I see "DT", I'm thinking defensive tackle. What are you using that to mean?

deathtrap, I think, with context?

[RogueGunslinger]

Dark Templar.

[Bushranger]

Deep-fried Tarantula.

Mmmmm...

[CodeMaster]

Resurrecting this thread to suggest: maybe new characters should also have their starting city as their hometown? (Or have it set as their 'hometown' even if they are from another area?).

I'm basing this suggestion on this recent thread from a new player (and some small number of newbies I've seen being from out-of-town and not knowing what ot do), as well as the fact that the directions command does not work anywhere but your hometown.