Whores. How should you feel about the profession on Zalanthas?

[RogueGunslinger]

This thread is more about figuring out how they should be treated, than whining about people who treat them in a manner they dislike. That is was player complaints are for.

The whole "Whores are treated the wrong way in-game" isn't really helping that discussion, It's what led to the discussion, so we're sort of moving backwards.

[Malken]

This is a well thought out argument and you have changed my mind over said topic. Thank you sir.

- nobody ever on the GDB

[Cutthroat]

The way prostitutes should be treated is with the following in mind:

- prostitutes without affiliations are independent commoners.
- all independent commoners are on the same social level.
- the "independent commoner" social level is broad, and holds a ton of commoners including most vNPCs and NPCs.
- those in the independent commoner social level have an individual choice to regard differing professions among independents as being better or worse than others, which translates to PCs forming individual, potentially different opinions about prostitutes, hunters, grebbers, dung-collectors, etc.
- the "normal" opinion of an independent commoner about an independent prostitute is probably that all independents including themselves barely matter at all in the grand scheme of things and any conflict about which profession is better is essentially fighting over nothing, since all indies are scraping by anyway.
- an indie looking down on an indie prostitute doesn't make sense logically, or socially - but PCs do (and are allowed to do) a lot of things that are illogical and anti-social
- an affiliated commoner could have a wide variety of opinions about indie prostitutes, or really any indie - pity, empathy, distaste, zeal, etc.
- prostitutes with affiliation should be treated with their affiliation in mind. (With the most common affiliations being with Kurac or a noble/templar).

Note that this is just my interpretation of the documentation with regards to the power structure in the cities. I don't think it's a cop-out to say that there isn't a right or wrong way to go about treating prostitutes IG so long as it makes sense for your character to be the way they are, based on the background they have and the documentation everyone has access to.

[RogueGunslinger]

Aaaaaaaand /thread.

Deftly put, Cutthroat.

[ShaLeah]

If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.

There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.

tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.

To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.

If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.

Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.

I won't bother citing studies or articles on how sex is indeed a necessary thing, you can Google that all on your own. You may not need it, or want it, but for the vast majority of the human race it IS a need.

It's funny, because I see the pendulum swing a bit too far toward the "respect" side on this topic sometimes, just as much as it can swing towards derision. For example, next time your character gets a new job, say something like: "I'm sure glad Lord Amos hired me, otherwise I would have ended up whoring on the street!" I guarantee you that somebody else will reply with some variation of: "Well, Talia, that's not so bad... whoring is a respectable profession!"

That's funny as hell, you're 100% right, we need a better balance. When someone says something "bad" about whoring everyone who isn't of that mindset jumps on them and tries to set them straight. I do it. I do it because I really do feel it's a matter of real world mentality versus Zalanthan appropriate mentality in most of those cases. Out of all the times that I've seen this happen in all the years of play I can count the times on one hand where it was a completely character appropriate reaction. Twice. Their background was tragic and they had every right to have lingering emotional shit tied to whores. I hope most of the people who react like, What?!?, do so because they too think like I do, that maybe they're newbies and don't know that whoring is a job like any other on Zalanthas so we all jump on the educate the newbie bandwagon.

[Harmless]

If you want to play a character who treats whores because they are "useless" to you, because they don't provide a service useful to you, fine. That's a concept that fits in Zalanthas. But it isn't the case at all for many people in the game world, virtual or real. If you want them to think you're a "shit-shovel," to use a Zalanthan term, or that you're someone no fun to be around, drink with, gamble around, bring your whores to their party, etc... well, then go ahead and look down on whores. It makes as much sense to treat someone like that in the world with total confusion (why are you so concerned over a whore? There's like, twenty of them all around us,) as it makes sense for any PC to see whores as being less useful.

Useless to me? Maybe, but useful to -somebody- I probably want to befriend, or at least stay on neutral terms with.

That's the idea, but unfortunately there are people who come at the "how do I see whores" question (from many angles!) and still get one crucial thing wrong. They assume that everyone else does or should see whores the same way they or their characters do, when the fact is there IS a huge segment of certain populations that would easily defend a whore, if for any reason, to keep the whore around in case they get lucky with them next; or, they might defend whores because they've used so many in the past that they become fond of them. Not unusual.

Anyway, the real world has way, way more whores than you guys realize. It's the oldest profession, and unfortunately, our societal lineage (particularly here in the states), has given many people very little education on the reality, why it occurs, how different societies have sought to control it (most don't take anything even remotely similar to the eradication approach America favors), and how whores interact with other members of those societies.

Edited to add: By the way, some have stated in here that "whore -> prostitute -> courtesan" or some such hierarchy of terms exists. I don't think that's an issue here, though I agree in the case of courtesan. Semantics was never the problem here.

[Lizzie]

Males have plenty of holes to receive spooge in too, just saying. Can we drop the misogyny/sexist straw-man?

My point was 50% of whores would be hired by females...

If a whore isnt a trained Kuraci or a House sponsored Courtesan/slave they are as useleaa as an indie hunter. Sure they may be good at what they do but who cares? Theyre just a whore with no training or future. Even an Ex-Kuraci might have the skills needed but is otherwise useless while unaffiliated. So. Someone being just a whore is like someone being just a grebber. Im sorry some people dont see your PC whores they way you feel they should. Prove to them you can be someone of importance. Have your clients mess them up.

There have been few good whores and the only ones I dont like are ones that think they are above you because they kank a soldier. Ive never gtebbed for a soldier and got preferential treatment like a whore.

tldr is: If you dont like it, be the change. Ask staff for help.

To be fair, I don't think the issue is folks saying their indy-whore should be held in high regard. I think the argument is more or less that whoring should not be looked down on any more than any other profession, a problem that tends to exist in the game world.

If a whore, a baker, and a grebber walk into a bar it'd possibly be a rather odd thing for people to be like "Ohay, a baker! Ohay, a grebber! Ewww, a whore!" The whore should be getting her own Ohays too.

Ohay a baker can feed me - I need to eat, therefore, the baker is held in high regard, comparatively speaking.
Ohay a grebber can provide me with the raw materials I need to make things, which is what I use to earn money, which I use to pay the baker! The grebber I hold in high regard, comparatively speaking. Somewhat less than a baker, since I could find other means of income.
Ohay a whore can provide me with - absolutely nothing that I need. And I have to pay for it, if I want it. No regard.

That is you, personally.  I think the argument is from society's standpoint that is not the viewpoint.  There is no stigma attached to being a whore (and if you are treating them like there is, you are carrying it over from RL), they provide something useful, and it is considered a normal, non-discriminated against profession just like a baker or grebber.

And again - as I and several other people have said - it depends on the whore. It depends on the baker. If it's a baker of the bread that McDonald's uses to make their Big Macs - they are held by me in LOW regard. Not even neutral. Low. If it's a whore who accepts rinthis among her clientelle - even if she also services nobles - she will be held in LOW regard. Not even neutral. Unless of course I'm playing a rinthi, who is looking to hire a whore. In that case - the whore will be held in high regard. For at least 10 minutes.

If it's a whore who can afford to reject elves, and does reject elves, I might consider him in somewhat neutral regard. But if it's a whore wearing a gem, I'd consider him even lower than low. I'd consider him a thorough abomination, disgusting, despicable, and having the very distinct and dubious honor of being capable of passing unholy taints through my bloodstream just by virtue of his hand touching my penis, even through a scrap of sandcloth covering it.

If it's a whore who services gemmed - I'd consider it exactly the same as if it was a gemmed whore. Unless of course I was the gemmed customer seeking services of a whore. In which case, I might even prefer the services of a gemmed whore, and not an ungemmed whore. Because every sane person knows that any ungemmed whore who is willing to service a gemmed, is someone who doesn't care if he gets tainted or crotch-rot or any other kind of disease that could very easily spread and become pandemic.

And so on and so forth.

If it's a whore who only services ranking merchant-house employees/family, nobles, and templars, I'd probably hold them in fairly high esteem. Well except if I was a Tuluki, in which case I'd think of them as abominable, because nobles and templars don't use commoner whores for sexual pleasures, and if it's just a discussion about the habits of southerners, it's uncouth, and the whore would be held in particularly low esteem, right along with the nobles and templars.

Etc. etc. etc.

Whores are commoners. As such, they fall into the same rank and file as all other commoners. If they lack rank and do business with people of dubious character/reputation, their own character/reputation is on par. If they have rank and do business with people of rank, then the perception of the whore should be equally on par.

It all depends on the whore in question. There is no generic whore.

[Kalai]

... I worry for what has been done to me for I would follow a baker who baked mcdonald's hamburger buns like a spice addict following a kuraci merchant.
I only rarely even eat mcdonald's, and it's been ... since summer at least since I touched the stuff ...
but damnit, here I am, craving just the buns ... possibly fitting in a thread about whores ...
Lizzie what have you done?

[Desertman]

When you play this, I will treat you like this. Until then, no dice:

[Delirium]

No, you'll just roll your eyes and complain about snowflake f-me's.

[Desertman]

No, you'll just roll your eyes and complain about snowflake f-me's.

But not to their face, and not in game.

[Nyr]

Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.

(there's a special hell for derails like these)

[ShaLeah]

Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.

(there's a special hell for derails like these)

I dunno why people complain about good looking humans. I worry when I see good looking dorfs or half giants!

[/derail]

[KankWhisperer]

Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.

(there's a special hell for derails like these)

I dunno why people complain about good looking humans. I worry when I see good looking dorfs or half giants!

[/derail]

Whoring should be common. Ultra beautiful people with flawless skin and perfect teeth and tapering waists from their broad shoulders or hourglass figures shouldn't be. But I wrote it in my background! Spare me. Maybe the people who look down on all whores wrote it in theirs.

[ShaLeah]

Oh great, yet inara complaint about f-me's to wash over the GDB like a river. Maybe it's time to throw the book at you maladroit folks that are ignoring the sweet serenity of this fine profession.

(there's a special hell for derails like these)

I dunno why people complain about good looking humans. I worry when I see good looking dorfs or half giants!

[/derail]

Whoring should be common. Ultra beautiful people with flawless skin and perfect teeth and tapering waists from their broad shoulders or hourglass figures shouldn't be. But I wrote it in my background! Spare me. Maybe the people who look down on all whores wrote it in theirs.

People put that they're beautiful in their backgrounds? Lol

I hope they DO put it in their background, then at least they'll have a reason for hating whores and not be like ewww they have sex for a living like I've heard so much that I made this thread.

[KankWhisperer]

I've never made anyone who was overly attractive OR anyone who hates whores. I just assume there should be something to explain it away.

[ShaLeah]

I've never made anyone who was overly attractive OR anyone who hates whores. I just assume there should be something to explain it away.

Dunno if I'd explain looks. Then again I'm told even when I write what I think is an ugly character I'm told otherwise.

[Red Ranger]

Whores are commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. As such, they fall into the same rank and file as all other commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they lack rank and do business with people of dubious character/reputation, their own character/reputation is on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they have rank and do business with people of rank, then the perception of the whore should be equally on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].

It all depends on the whore in question [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. There is no generic whore [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].

Agreed!

[Lizzie]

Whores are commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. As such, they fall into the same rank and file as all other commoners [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they lack rank and do business with people of dubious character/reputation, their own character/reputation is on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. If they have rank and do business with people of rank, then the perception of the whore should be equally on par [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].

It all depends on the whore in question [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on]. There is no generic whore [just like bakers, grebbers, mercenaries, and so on].

Agreed!

Hopefully you're really agreeing and not being snarky - because your edit is exactly what I intended to convey

Whores get no special treatment just because they're whores. They're no more, or less, respectable than any other mundane commoner. The fact that they're a whore - doesn't give them respectability. And in some cases (such as the ones I offered as an example) - it reduces their respectability (such as a gemmed whore, a rinthi whore, a whore that allows rinthis and gemmed people to make use of his/her intimate services, etc).

[Delusion]

More than any other commoner who deals with gemmers, 'rinthis, foreigners and so on?

[Red Ranger]

Hopefully you're really agreeing and not being snarky - because your edit is exactly what I intended to convey

No snark intended!  I 100% agree.  Sex workers get no special treatment.  So that means they get no special respect for being a sex worker and they get no special stigma for being a sex worker either.  Being a sex worker is just one trade like many others and they're subject to the same social boosts and demerits that any other PC must consider including associating with foreigners, Rinthis, magickers, lesser races, speaking out against the Powers that Be and so on.

edit: quote added for clarity.

[FreeRangeVestric]

More than any other commoner who deals with gemmers, 'rinthis, foreigners and so on?

Well, in fairness to that viewpoint, there does seem to be a lot more stigma associated with sleeping with a magicker than say, selling a magicker something. Perhaps because of the possibility of magicker offspring.

[Red Ranger]

More than any other commoner who deals with gemmers, 'rinthis, foreigners and so on?

Well, in fairness to that viewpoint, there does seem to be a lot more stigma associated with sleeping with a magicker than say, selling a magicker something. Perhaps because of the possibility of magicker offspring.

Different trades may interact with those negative associations differently.  The mercenary trade is a trade like any other, but a mercenary plying her trade for a foreigner might get a much more negative reaction than if she plied her trade with a native gemmer in Allanak, for instance.  The foreigner/not foreigner distinction might not be a big deal for a baker, though.

[Lizzie]

Gemmers use mundane blood and sperm for sacrifices. Magickers, by virtue of the fact that they ARE magickers - can make you infertile, make your babies be deformed, make you pregnant when you believed yourself to be infertile, make mul mix not work, make mul mix work permanently, make your penis shrivel up if they have reason to curse you a year after they've had sex with you...

etc. etc. etc.

If you're a gemmer whore, or a whore who has sex with gemmers, you are at risk of any of the above, OR at risk of inflicting any of the above. You should be, for all intents and purposes, a pariah, worse than the worst of filthy rinthi disease-spreading whores. In fact, the only thing worse than a gemmer whore, would be - a gemmer rinthi whore. Or a customer of one.

[Scarecrow]

As I said, a whore should be judged on their race, magickal status, and their clients. I think a gemmed whore should just be treated like other gemmed, something to be feared, loathed, and shunned. I think any non-gemmed who uses their services should be treated as even lower, or a madman.