Whores. How should you feel about the profession on Zalanthas?

[ShaLeah]

Spurred by a discussion here, I thought it'd be helpful to discuss how you feel about whoring on Zalanthas.

A long time ago I was speaking to a now former staff about whoring on Zalanthas. It was one of the aspects of the game world I just couldn't understand, how it fit into the setting, how my character would/should feel about whoring in general. I'll have to paraphrase him because it's been such a long time but he said whoring would NOT be ostracized or in any way looked down upon on Zalanthas. Why?

He said that we lived in a society that was so okay with sex, that values it enough, that Noble Houses breed a specific type of slave JUST for it. That a whore who associates with Nobles can be elevated in status to concubine and that we don't know how many concubines started out as whores but that it'd be a fair assumption that at least some of them do. That they'd be subject to the social hierarchy rules of whatever place they were living and that a rinthi elf whore in Allanak could never be on the same level as even a rinthi human whore.


I bring the topic up because every time I see a whore in game or play one myself, I all too often witness characters use whore as an insult even after they've been educated of the normalcy and respectability of said profession, I've encountered the characters who'd love to throw sid their way but can't because their mates forbid it (while anyone other than the whore would be okay) and you know it's real world mentality when rinthers are using the word whore like the profession somehow elevates their station.

Here is an old thread about whores that brings up some interesting topics. We just spent weeks debating rape on the gdb, a whore topic actually sounds kinda refreshing after that.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,12391.0.html

I obviously disagree with sarahjc despite her good points on why the word should be used derogatorily. I think the use of it in a derogatory manner should be solely appropriate and if you're a 2-sid breed rinthi whore who spreads diseased, sure, THEN I would probably call you a filthy disease ridden whore but I'd also add a shame to your profession. I wouldn't automatically assume that you ARE a disease ridden whore just cause you're a whore.

[Refugee]

I think it's just another way of making a living in a world where that's really hard to do.  I don't think they would be judged poorly just for the job itself.  Those who have the gifts or skill to attract wealthier clients would be admired.  Those who have to service the dregs of society would be looked down on and probably not survive very well or very long. 

There's a wide spectrum that the title 'prostitute' covers and how a PC is judged should depend on where they fall in that spectrum.

[Desertman]

I don't see why using "whore" as a derogatory term would be off limits. As you pointed out, they AREN'T concubines, they are whores.

They aren't courtesans or anything else "fancy". They are whores. They are spooge receptacles who make their living laying on their backs or on their knees. This isn't exactly a high-skill profession that demands a lot of respect in a world where ONLY might is right.

Now, the day people start using "concubine" or "courtesan" as an insult, is the day I would have an issue with this. Those are proven professional entertainers who are obviously so good at their craft they have earned respect through wealth/political means.

Whore is the Runner rank of the sex worker industry. Runner is not in general a glorified position. Neither is whore.

Zalanthas isn't a world of moral justification. Zalanthas is a world where your only value is your ability to inflict harm on other people or prevent the infliction of harm on other people, be that through physical might, wealth, or political influence, and your typical whore has none of these things.

In fact, most "whores" you see in game, even in a virtual sense, are only "whores" because it is a no-skill job that does not require them to have any of the merits that would otherwise afford them stations of power or respect. They do the one trade that they are good at, laying on their backs or being on their knees.

Now, the day I see the hardcore warrior whore who can bring the pain to gith hordes, and is ALSO a whore, is the day I treat them with the same respect I would show every other hardcore warrior.

It has very little to do with "whore" being a bad thing, and a lot more to do with "whore" being what it is. The typical profession of those beings who can't or won't do anything beyondd being a spooge receptacle. That may sound awful, but is the truth. Most people only whore in Zalanthas because they lack the ability to do other highly skilled trades.

So when people say, "Oh, that's just some dirty whore." They aren't saying, "Flog them and stone them." They are saying, "They don't have any other skills, so they whore, and they aren't good enough at it to get above whore rank in the profession."

[Red Ranger]

So, I agree with these opinions from the recent RAT thread:

Your respect follows the level of the people you fuck and how much money you make.

^^^

A rinth rat kanking everything with a pulse would probably be snickered at, shunned a little, etc; but not because of her profession. More because of how she goes about it. Kind of like the used car lot mechanic of whores.

Your normal everyday whores are probably not looked down on any, as whoring is simply another job that men and women partake in to get by. Calling someone a whore seems to be a choice insult I've seen a lot in game, and it's a bit cringeworthy to read, considering it wouldn't really be considered an insult. It'd be like calling someone a bartender on Earth.

Your cleaner, more picky whores who work the well-to-do field, and aren't really concubines, are probably seen with a bit more respect than the others. The bond a man or woman can potentially form with an influential client might even work in their favor socially, so long as they keep said clients on good terms. Insulting one of these types for their profession should probably draw some odd looks for onlookers.

In the old thread that's already been cited, the inimitable Angela Christine said much the same thing, and I agree with her too:

I think prostitute is equivilent to mercenary or laborer. 

A low-class, Unskilled freelance worker with poor training and equipment who hires himself out by the day or the hour is very low status.  He has no loyalty, no sponser, and tomorrow he could be working for your enemies.  This applies regardless of whether he is a sex worker, a ditch digger or a sellsword.  A 'rinthi prostitute, day laborer, or mercenary is very low status and has little chance of gaining much status.  These people may take in laundry or do other odd jobs as well.  One such freelance worker might occasionally work as a day laborer, a prostitute and a mercenary, depending on what work you can find on a given day.  (A PC who works some days as a obsidian miner, another day foraging for salt, a third day weaving crude baskets, on the fourth gathers rocks, and on the fifth answers the call to go fight in a big battle as cannon fodder for the templarate might fall into this "class" of worker).

A step-up from there you have Professionals.  The are reasonably well trained and have adequate equipment to do the job.  They usually work only in their chosen proffesion, going out to gather branches or salt because your regular buisness is a little slow would be embarassing.  You have proffessional mercenaries in the T'zai Byn and other mercenary companies, and soldier/guards in Kurac and other merchant houses would probably be considered to be at this level as well (although those organizations may consider their own workers at a higher level).  Apprentice and journeman level crafters might fall in as labourers at this level, along with construction workers and such.  A prostitute who has reasonably good clothes and uses lotions and things to smell nice would fall in here, as would one in the permanent employ of Kurac or a particular tavern.  Many commoners are at this level.

The you have Sponsered Proffesionals who are affilated with high status organizations or are highly skilled employees of medium stuts organizations.   Most master crafters would fall in here.  The guard in a noble house are sponsered proffesionals.  Most commoners will not look down on these folks.  Employees of a high-class brothel might fit in here.   The main thing that seperates them from the catagories below is that they do have loyalty to a particular person or organization, and that person or organization is presumed to guarentee their good behavior and take responsibility if they behave baddly.

Finally you have Elite workers.  They may be employed by a noble house, a merchant house, or self employed.  Nearly any organization would be happy to hire them.  A silk-clad prostitute who charges hundreds of 'sids per night (and is worth every penny) fits in here.  She knows stuff, not just sex stuff, but how to be an engaging conversationalist, how to stroke an ego and make those who hire her feel good about themselves, and how to fit in durring a formal noble ball or a casual night at the Bard's barrel.

Basically the fact that you are a sex worker, a labourer or a sellsword has very little to do with your social status.  The definineing points are how good you are at what you do, where you work, and who you work for.

All that said, a big part of the problem is the term "whore." That word is a RL pejorative.  The word is fraught with tons of RL meaning beyond just neutrally meaning "sex worker."  I don't think the players playing this game will stop looking down on whores IC'ly unless a less OOC'ly derogatory word is used to describe sex workers IC'ly.  So my proposed solution is actually the same solution that I proposed back in 2005 in that old thread:

I feel that this question could be answered to the satisfaction of most people on either "side" if we distinguish between whores; we can look down on, tolerate, and respect whores all at the same time. 

At one end of the spectrum are the toothless 'Rinthis that smell like a gutter, and at the other end are the perfumed and exclusive whores to the nobility, the ones that are pampered and may even have some power and influence.  What I suggest is that new terms be coined for the various levels in the Prostitute Continuum.  If Eskimos have 100 words for snow, shouldn't Zalanthans have 100 words for whore?  For instance, the pox-ridden 'Rinthi whores that will do their thing for a sip of brackish water could be called "Ratlies," while the working class whores could be called "Geemsas," and the upper class "courtesans" could be called "Chalyas."  In this example, the word "ratli" would be an insult, but the word "chalya" would be something to fear or to aspire to.

Another factor that is perpetuating the RL disdain for whores into the IC realm is that, IMO, a lot of RP around mudsex perpetuates other RL norms around sex, as I've mentioned before:

Another problem I have with mudsex as practiced on Armageddon is in my experience it typically plays out in one of two scenarios: 1) female PC propositioned by male PC or 2) female PC using mudsex as a means to manipulate male PC (and I suppose both do coexist).  Both of these things are fine per se, and can be perfectly appropriate IC'ly.  My problem is when 1) and 2) are the vast majority of mudsex scenarios that are played out in-game, because those two scenarios are the ones that predominate in RL and which reinforce the stereotypical RL sexual roles of males being sexually dominant in 1) and females acting as the sexual gatekeeper in 2).  This is a problem because there are no gender specific roles or social differences in Zalanthas, so constantly seeing those two specific scenarios played out to the exclusion of all others really starts to erode my immersion even without me playing the female PC getting constantly propositioned for sex.  IMO it comes across as the playerbase ignoring the gameworld.

...

So, my answer is... more conscientious mudsex RP. 

...

Better yet, get your mudsex on by making those male PCs that sleep their way to the top as a sexual gatekeeper getting goodies and protection from the more powerful female PC, by making those male PC prostitutes, and by making those female PCs that are sexually domineering too.

TL;DR: the IC language and RP surrounding prostitution and mudsex perpetuates RL norms about both that are inappropriate IC'ly.  We the players have it in our power to change both the language and the RP.

So get out there and be the change, you sex worker PCs!

edit: typo corrected for clarity

[Desertman]

Edited my post above a bit to make it make more sense.

[Patuk]

I think the recent rape ban shows just how good people are at not blindly copying RL morals into Zalanthas.

Of course, no stigma resting on being a whore doesn't quite have the same emotional level of stress, so here's to hoping this getting better at least.

[Harmless]

Prostitution is something that should be so commonplace in Allanak or Tuluk that you see whores every day. Not just one whore a day, but like, a dozen. Though diseases and such are known about, you'd be hard-pressed to find sufferers of such things, suggesting that the rate of such disease is low. Additionally, the rate of death by other causes -- starvation, dehydration, and violence -- is so high that these diseases would have a hard time spreading. It's when people are thriving and living longer that diseases even have a chance to spread in great numbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiwara

Japan's history of prostitution spanning the Edo period in particular is well recorded thanks to the higher literacy rate of that time. Yuukaku, or "red light districts," were places where female (and also male) prostitutes could both be purchased easily. They would be on display publicly. All ranking members of society would visit these districts, from Samurai to regional lords to commoners. Pretty much everybody in Japan who knew anything knew about its existence. It would have up to 3000 working prostitutes at a time.

Prostitution in this period was not an easy job. STI's, particularly syphilis, would kill many. Failed abortions would kill more, and though there was a legal system with written contracts for brothels to hire out women, many would die before their contracts were completed, or others would whore forever because of debts incurred.

The preponderance of STI's in this period is likely attributable to all of the whores being put in one place, an ignorance of how STI's are transmitted, the incredible skill of geisha in hiding their illness, and the sharing of customers among so many prostitutes.

The realities of prostitution were swept under the rug and hidden from the customer base. Syphilis and dying whores were bad for business. Popular works of fiction about prostitutes written in this era, kind of like romance novels, functioned as advertisements for supporting red light district business, and didn't include the gruesome details of disease and so on.

The bottom line, though, is that nowhere in any of the extensive documentation of prostitution of Japan prior to America's influence in the Meiji period was there any shunning of prostitutes. Sadly, some of this was likely due to enforced ignorance of the realities of prostitution, but that's how the business thrived.

(just thought that would be an interesting comparison)

[Riya OniSenshi]

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39003.0.html

[Red Ranger]

I don't see why using "whore" as a derogatory term would be off limits. As you pointed out, they AREN'T concubines, they are whores.

They aren't courtesans or anything else "fancy". They are whores. They are spooge receptacles who make their living laying on their backs or on their knees.

Your post betrays your RL biases influencing what you're trying to peddle as a clear eyed Zalanthan IC perspective.  A Zalanthan wouldn't immediately think "whore = spooge receptacle" for a variety of reasons, a big one being that Zalanthans wouldn't assume, like you seem to do, that sex workers are primarily female or that sex workers primarily engage in receptive sex from men.  There are no gender roles in Zalanthas.

IMO, in Zalanthas sex work is a trade like any other and there's nothing inherently inferior about it compared to other work.  If you can't explain why a Zalanthan would look down on a sex worker without resorting to RL biases that explicitly don't exist in Zalanthas, then you're fatally undermining your position.

[ShaLeah]

I don't see why using "whore" as a derogatory term would be off limits. As you pointed out, they AREN'T concubines, they are whores.

They aren't courtesans or anything else "fancy". They are whores. They are spooge receptacles who make their living laying on their backs or on their knees.

Your post betrays your RL biases influencing what you're trying to peddle as a clear eyed Zalanthan IC perspective.  A Zalanthan wouldn't immediately think "whore = spooge receptacle" for a variety of reasons, a big one being that Zalanthans wouldn't assume, like you seem to do, that sex workers are primarily female or that sex workers primarily engage in receptive sex from men.  There are no gender roles in Zalanthas.

IMO, in Zalanthas sex work is a trade like any other and there's nothing inherently inferior about it compared to other work.  If you can't explain why a Zalanthan would look down on a sex worker without resorting to RL biases that explicitly don't exist in Zalanthas, then you're fatally undermining your position.

Exactly. The term whore should be no more insulting than the word mercenary or salter, grebber. That's my point, not that the distinctions between the level of class with which one whores should be removed but that they should be added to the distinction. Who's smarter? The whore who sucks a mini-templar once a day to get some sid or the salter who breaks his back to get that sid? It's about choice and in some places a whore might not have a choice and be the lowest form, but in ten years when that rinthi has fucked enough rats to get enough for a place of his own and gotten some savvy, sucked his way up the social ladder, you might not even know where he started unless he wants you to. I'm not saying you shouldn't use the term whore derogatorily, I'm saying don't treat Zalanthan whore with a real world mentality.

Some questions to maybe ask yourself are these:
1) If it's legal and sanctioned on Zalanthas and they're not being arrested for breaking the law, why would you look down on the profession in general.
2) Why is it that having sex for sid, something that is not really okay here in real life with very few exceptions, bothersome to my character and is it really bothersome to my character or is it bothersome to me?
3) Why is whoring any different than a mercenary or guard (I won't use 'warrior' like Dman did because that's not really a profession on Zalanthas, it's a class) or salter or grebber?


Edited to remove the 4, there shouldn't have been a 4!

[Malken]

Grebber is a real profession because you use both hands in the hope that you'll be able to extract a salty product of sort at the end of your manual labor and trade said labor in exchange for some 'sids after the deed is done.

[spicemustflow]

Whores are more fun with the shame attached. I know it's not in the docs, but that's how I see it. just like doing spice is more fun in Nak than in Tuluk.

[ShaLeah]

Grebber is a real profession because you use both hands in the hope that you'll be able to extract a salty product of sort at the end of your manual labor and trade said labor in exchange for some 'sids after the deed is done.

Trust me, Malken, when I tell you that you have to use both hands in whoring too.

Whores are more fun with the shame attached. I know it's not in the docs, but that's how I see it. just like doing spice is more fun in Nak than in Tuluk.

Sure.. in REAL life. There should be no shame in whoring on Zalanthas unless say, you started out as a 50 sid whore and suck at it (pun intended) so badly that you end up a 10 sid whore up on Hathor's.  That's personal shame.

[bcw81]

Some questions to maybe ask yourself are these:
1) If it's legal and sanctioned on Zalanthas and they're not being arrested for breaking the law, why would you look down on the profession in general.
2) Why is it that having sex for sid, something that is not really okay here in real life with very few exceptions, bothersome to my character and is it really bothersome to my character or is it bothersome to me?
3) Why is whoring any different than a mercenary or guard (I won't use 'warrior' like Dman did because that's not really a profession on Zalanthas, it's a class) or salter or grebber?

1) Because it's a no-skill job. Why does society look down on McDonald's workers? It's a no-skill job. Seriously - Desertman is in the right here. Whores, at their base levels, are just holes to use. Sure, if they're good they'll be more respected, but being a whore isn't a great job and should never be treated as an aide position. I treat grebbers with the same enmity I treat whores with.

2) Rape is banned for the same reason. Go read that topic.

3) Because being a mercenary or a guard takes skill, dedication, constant physical training. A salter and a grebber both go out into the middle of the sands, something any sane person would never do, and ply life. A whore stays home, lays on her back, and has someone else do what they want with her slit. (or in the male equivalent that you never see IG, with their bunghole/cock)

[Desertman]

Thank you BCW.

Me being me, it is easy to say, "Desertman is just a sexist A-Hole, that is why he has his point of view."

I have seen a few well played male prostitutes in game. Usually they are comical, but, I treat them the same way.

(Who was the guy who walked around wearing the dress and heels and with the big bushy beard? I laughed so hard. You were epic.)

My point isn't that "the womenz are teh horez" (and if you say anything similar, you are just undermining your own position), my point is, it's a no-skill trade plied by people who have no skills, which is why they are in a no-skill trade, and they are looked down on for being garbage who can't do a real job.

In Zalanthas, might is right, nothing says, "I have no might." like having to resort to a no-skill trade because you aren't capable of better.

You get respect when you earn respect in Zalanthas.

This just happens to be a profession, that FOR THE MOST PART, that garners zero respect, because everyone knows why you are doing it, which is almost always because you can't do better.

There are exceptions to the rule. Highly successful high end prostitutes in Zalanthas would not be called "whore" in a derogatory manner, wouldn't be treated as such, and would actually be highly sought after and respected for plying their trade in such a way as to have obtained social and material influence. This just isn't the norm, I'm not going to roleplay like it is.

[RogueGunslinger]

I don't see commoners look down on, say, shit-scraping in-game. Shit-scraping would be your whoring equivalent. Cotton-picking and clay-digging are also no-skill jobs that aren't looked down on.

Food for thought.

[Delusion]

I assume that a majority of vNPCs are engaged in manual labour or domestic servitude which is below the levels even accessible to PCs.

[Desertman]

Just to clarify, I don't run around roleplaying that whores should be scorned and flogged and stoned to death.

I am the guy who roleplays that whores are extremely common place. I just roleplay that their position doesn't garner them any respect, because they are in a low-end no-skill trade.

When I see a guy who does nothing but scrape poo for a living because he can't do any better, he gets treated the same way.

Shit-scraper and whore would be "equal" derogatory terms in my book. Both no-skill, low might, low respect positions in society.

"Shit scrapin' whore!" would be a bonus.  

[bcw81]

I don't see commoners look down on, say, shit-scraping in-game. Shit-scraping would be your whoring equivalent. Cotton-picking and clay-digging are also no-skill jobs that aren't looked down on.

Food for thought.

I do. I played a cotton-picker once who -only- cotton picked. He was looked down on.

I make it a personal duty to look down on cotton pickers, clay grebbers, shit shovelers, and any other type of job like that in the city.

[Desertman]

Another point, I have seen a lot of people who roleplay exactly the way Shaleah has pointed out.

But, I have also seen a lot of people who roleplay trying to "White Knight" every whore that comes along to the point it makes it hard for them to play a dirty mangy whore, which is what they want to play.

I can't count the number of times I have seen that "rinthi whore" trying to "be saved" by another Gaj hero looking to "take her away from all of this", and he just met her. (I say her because it has happened to always be dame whores.)

If they are TRYING to play a dirty rinthi whore who is the scum of society, let them. It is what they want to do, and it is usually pretty obvious it is the role they are shooting for/enjoying.

Food for thought from the other end of "How they should be treated".

[ShaLeah]

Some questions to maybe ask yourself are these:
1) If it's legal and sanctioned on Zalanthas and they're not being arrested for breaking the law, why would you look down on the profession in general.
2) Why is it that having sex for sid, something that is not really okay here in real life with very few exceptions, bothersome to my character and is it really bothersome to my character or is it bothersome to me?
3) Why is whoring any different than a mercenary or guard (I won't use 'warrior' like Dman did because that's not really a profession on Zalanthas, it's a class) or salter or grebber?

1) Because it's a no-skill job. Why does society look down on McDonald's workers? It's a no-skill job. Seriously - Desertman is in the right here. Whores, at their base levels, are just holes to use. Sure, if they're good they'll be more respected, but being a whore isn't a great job and should never be treated as an aide position. I treat grebbers with the same enmity I treat whores with.

2) Rape is banned for the same reason. Go read that topic.

3) Because being a mercenary or a guard takes skill, dedication, constant physical training. A salter and a grebber both go out into the middle of the sands, something any sane person would never do, and ply life. A whore stays home, lays on her back, and has someone else do what they want with her slit. (or in the male equivalent that you never see IG, with their bunghole/cock)

1) Whoring is a skill based advancement job. If you're good it doesn't matter where you start. McDonald's is skilled labor, it's just labor that has little call for personal pride. No one said treat it like an aide position, I personally said don't treat it with out of character mindset. On Zalanthas SEX is a job like any other, above raiders and thieves for sure (in Allanak at least) and worthy of not only their own "exclusive shop" in a certain part of the known but visible every day. Whores are their lowest, worst levels are just holes to use. That I can't disagree with. But that's individual to the character NOT the profession.

2) Do not equate whoring to rape. That's ludicrous.

3) I disagree. Being a mercenary or a guard takes a weapon and to call yourself one, or in Allanak's instance joining a mercenary company. Being a GOOD mercenary takes skill, dedication and constant physical training. A whore puts his/her life in danger every single client without exception, when a salter and a grebber go out into the middle of the sands, it's a game of chance. You might get some critters/raiders, you might not. Until and IF a whore gets to have a regular he/she knows he/she can trust, it's way more dangerous and vulnerable therefor whores have to be smarter.

This just happens to be a profession, that FOR THE MOST PART, that garners zero respect, because everyone knows why you are doing it, which is almost always because you can't do better.

That's a real world mentality. Not a Zalanthan mentality.

There are exceptions to the rule. Highly successful high end prostitutes in Zalanthas would not be called "whore" in a derogatory manner, wouldn't be treated as such, and would actually be highly sought after and respected for plying their trade in such a way as to have obtained social and material influence. This just isn't the norm, I'm not going to roleplay like it is.

But they ARE is my point and shouldn't be because of real world definitions, the definitions should be appropriate to Zalanthas. It's just not. The profession of whore itself should NOT be the equivalent of the lowest denomination of it cause the HIGHEST denomination of it is reallyyyy high. A mercenary can be a famous mercenary with many won battles but calling someone a mercenary isn't like calling them a shit-cloak runner, there's a distinction from one type to another. Now sure. A mercenary may be looked down upon by a House guard but again, most people aren't concubines and most people, a starving rinther, an independent hunter, a breed, would not, or SHOULD not (in my opinion) be using the word whore like you'd use prick or asshole or elf-fucker.

You're a Runner in the Byn? Why would you be calling that whore whore like you're so much better? He's prolly making TONS more sid than you and the shit he's cleaning up is a whole lot less and gotten all over him in a much less shloppy manner.  Too much? LOL

[Cutthroat]

To look down on someone you have to be in a position above them. (Well, you don't have to be, but it makes you look like less of a hypocrite.)

The social rankings in the game largely focus on affiliation and what your PC was born into, with very little upward mobility. How independents - grebbers, hunters, prostitutes, whatever else - compare to each other - is probably best left to a potentially endless debate IG, because in both major cities all of them are basically lumped together in terms of respectability.

So sure, if your PC is a big shot they could look down on some common whore. But they ought to spread their disdain evenly across the entire group below them. So I agree with RGS in that regard. I guess if your PC isn't a big shot they could look down on a common whore too, but that would justifiably result in a potentially amusing argument IG where it is revealed that your PC is actually in the same social strata as the whore. But of course, that is all IG stuff and difficult to debate whether it is right or wrong on the GDB, because it is just something that could justifiably happen IG.

From time to time there have been PC whores who affiliate with a group, say a unit of soldiers in one of the cities, and (for example) offer their services only to them. That would be a way for a prostitute to gain social ranking, not only because of the affiliation itself but because they are serving a much smaller, more controllable group of clientele, which in turn means they are less likely to have those nasty STIs that can potentially sterilize or kill you. The other obvious example is concubinage in Allanak. But I think it's clear such people would be considered of high rank. Not many PCs could look down on such people.

[Desertman]

1) Whoring is a skill based advancement job.

I'm fine with treating them like high end high class whores, once they advance to that point.

If you're good it doesn't matter where you start.

If they are good they will advance. Once they advance, I'm fine with treating them like they are advanced and skilled.

On Zalanthas SEX is a job like any other, above raiders and thieves for sure (in Allanak at least) and worthy of not only their own "exclusive shop" in a certain part of the known but visible every day. Whores are their lowest, worst levels are just holes to use. That I can't disagree with. But that's individual to the character NOT the profession.

Here we agree. I don't treat whores who have "made it" in game like just holes to use. But MOST people are playing just holes to use, because strangely, most people seem to ENJOY playing that when they roll up a whore character.

Whores get treated worse than raiders and thieves because might is right. You don't have to fear whores, most of the time (because most people are playing the "just holes to use" types), you have to fear and respect raiders and thieves.

2) Do not equate whoring to rape. That's ludicrous.

+1

I disagree. Being a mercenary or a guard takes a weapon and to call yourself one, or in Allanak's instance joining a mercenary company. Being a GOOD mercenary takes skill, dedication and constant physical training. A whore puts his/her life in danger every single client without exception, when a salter and a grebber go out into the middle of the sands, it's a game of chance. You might get some critters/raiders, you might not. Until and IF a whore gets to have a regular he/she knows he/she can trust, it's way more dangerous and vulnerable therefor whores have to be smarter.

This falls into the, "If they earn the respect they get the respect.", category, just like any profession. Again, I have no problem treating whores who have "made it", like they are successful, respected, and powerful. Just get to that point first before you expect me to treat you like anything other than a whore who hasn't made it, which is just a hole to use.

This just happens to be a profession, that FOR THE MOST PART, that garners zero respect, because everyone knows why you are doing it, which is almost always because you can't do better.

That's a real world mentality. Not a Zalanthan mentality.

Most whores "haven't made it", so for most whores, the most common whores who are just whoring to get by, that is a very Zalanthan mentality. The norm, because the normal whore isn't a high end highly successful whore.

There are exceptions to the rule. Highly successful high end prostitutes in Zalanthas would not be called "whore" in a derogatory manner, wouldn't be treated as such, and would actually be highly sought after and respected for plying their trade in such a way as to have obtained social and material influence. This just isn't the norm, I'm not going to roleplay like it is.

But they ARE is my point and shouldn't be because of real world definitions, the definitions should be appropriate to Zalanthas. It's just not. The profession of whore itself should NOT be the equivalent of the lowest denomination of it cause the HIGHEST denomination of it is reallyyyy high. A mercenary can be a famous mercenary with many won battles but calling someone a mercenary isn't like calling them a shit-cloak runner, there's a distinction from one type to another. Now sure. A mercenary may be looked down upon by a House guard but again, most people aren't concubines and most people, a starving rinther, an independent hunter, a breed, would not, or SHOULD not (in my opinion) be using the word whore like you'd use prick or asshole or elf-fucker.

You're a Runner in the Byn? Why would you be calling that whore whore like you're so much better? He's prolly making TONS more sid than you and the shit he's cleaning up is a whole lot less and gotten all over him in a much less shloppy manner.  Too much? LOL

Because mercenaries are in a profession that garners respect almost instantly because they kill other people for a living. You get respect two ways. Being dangerous, or knowing dangerous people who will be dangerous on your behalf. Whores usually don't have this clout on either end. Some do, and once they do, again, I have no problem treating them as such. Until then, holes to use.

They aren't comparable in any way. One garners respect out of fear due the world being ruled by a "Might is right" mentality.

Whores don't get that same respect, because they don't offer that same threat.

[ShaLeah]

A whole bunch of other shit and...
Because mercenaries are in a profession that garner respect almost instantly because they kill other people for a living.

They aren't comparable in any way. One garners respect out of fear due the world being ruled by a "Might is right" mentality.

Whores don't get that same respect, because they don't offer that same threat.

Again, it should. A normal whore should be treated with the same respect as a normal mercenary. It shouldn't be a might is right mentality according to real world definitions, in Zalanthas might comes in many forms and whoring is and SHOULD be an example of how might can often come in the shape of genitalia.

Maybe I should rephrase my concern thus way, so that no one thinks I am for 100% banning the use of whore in a derogatory WAY or are saying whoring is akin to aiding or soldiering or anything a bit higher on the social ladder.

A player character that makes a whore does so with a certain "class" objective. A player who makes a rinthi breed whore, expects to be extra beat up by the Known, a regular person who makes a CHARACTER is by default above those of the same profession present in game because they're not NPCs.

I feel it is not appropriate to treat all PC whores like they are the above mentioned breed rinthi 15 sid, disease ridden whore. That whole span between lowest and in your face filthy rich successful above all the whores whore should be played as it is. Normalcy. It's normal and common to be a whore on Zalanthas and when you are doing it because you HAVE TO, you're in the lowest class, but no one in game who plays one HAS to, now do they?

[ale six]

It's funny, because I see the pendulum swing a bit too far toward the "respect" side on this topic sometimes, just as much as it can swing towards derision. For example, next time your character gets a new job, say something like: "I'm sure glad Lord Amos hired me, otherwise I would have ended up whoring on the street!" I guarantee you that somebody else will reply with some variation of: "Well, Talia, that's not so bad... whoring is a respectable profession!"

Now try it again with: "I'm sure glad Lord Amos hired me, otherwise I would have ended up whoring grebbing on the street!" More likely the reply you get will be along the lines of "Yep, you sure are lucky to work for Lord Amos."

In other words, sometimes in our effort to make sure we all convey that we understand whores can be respected in Zalanthas, I feel like we often lose sight of the fact that many also aren't. Crazy as it may sound, plenty of commoners probably wouldn't relish the idea of working on their back in the Tooth or the Gaj every day. The majority of whores are not your tressy-tressed, silk-and-jewels type courtesans - those are the ones who should be respected. Then there are some that might be treated neutrally - "You're an escort? Great, I'm a hunter/crafter/mercenary." At the lowest level are the whores you see in echoes in the Gaj or the Tooth, the ones getting carried off by drunks and so on. Those are probably not people you want to be seen with if you move in classier social circles.

My point is there's a spectrum, and we seem to gravitate towards either extreme in our intepretations. As a whore, where you are on that spectrum is probably defined by a combination of factors: how rich you are, how pretty (and clean!) you are, how important your clients are, who has your back, and so on. I don't really agree with Desertman when he says whoring is a no-skill trade... it's just the relevant skills in play are social skills, not so much how good you are at the actual act. Depending on context the word whore could be a compliment, an insult, or just whatever.