So about those Tuluki tattoos...

[slvrmoontiger]

I have a question regarding the changes that this affects, but am afraid to post here in case its too IC. I'm also afraid if I post something in as a question it might take a while to get a response. Any better ways to do it? Its not a complete emergency so "wish all" isn't really a good idea either.

[boog]

Send in a question request! They only take at most a couple days.

Clan Related   Question/Request   8   3.34 days

[Nyr]

If you have a question that is too IC for the GDB, feel free to put in a request.  I'll handle it as soon as I can.

[evilcabbage]

I'm saying this:

There is one citizenship tattoo.

There are (or were) at least 15 slave caste tattoos, either hexagons or triangles or moons.
There is also one commoner caste tattoo, the six-pronged star.
There are seven noble caste tattoos (variations on color).
There are (were) two templar caste tattoos.

It is easier to target one type of tattoo (the "Gol Krathu tattoo")
that might be in 5 different locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen"

than it is to target 25 different tattoos (caste, etc)
that might be in several possible locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen".

We're considering the effects of implementation beyond what PCs are affected; we are considering all NPCs and all future PCs as well. 

What Nyr is saying is that the neckband denotes you are a citizen, period. The six-pronged star is a Commoners tattoo, with the Neckband, that says that "I am a citizen, AND a commoner, who lives in Tuluk". Because Tuluki citizens LOVE their tattoos, remember? They fucking LOVE tattoos.

Hence, there are a ton of different tattoos. Soldiers check people for tattoos all the time to make sure a motherfucker isn't a slave trying to escape the city. That's what the six-pronged star represents. You're not just some common slave, you're actually a common-born citizen with (a couple) rights.

[Molten Heart]

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

Maybe there's a coded reason for one type of tattoo to be recognized by certain parts of the city.  Wink wink nudge nudge.

Though if you're playing in Tuluk, you already know the answer to this.

Perhaps I misunderstood the "answer to this - nudge nudge" but it looked to me as though the caste tattoo, which is proof that you are a citizen _because_ it is proof that you have a Tuluk caste - would be sufficient. I mean - if you are a citizen you have to have that caste tattoo. Either the six-pronged star, or the seven-pronged star, or whatever that other thing is that slaves have on the left hand. Just the fact that you have one of those specific caste tattooes, is proof that you are a citizen. If you don't have one of those caste tattooes, then you are not a citizen.

Unless you're saying that it is possible to have the neckband tattoo, and NOT have a caste tattoo? Which would indicate - that there's no change at all, and I'm not understanding why there's even a thread since that was how it was until you posted the thread?

>Lizzeh is confuzzled.

I think he's saying it's for simplicity's sake.  Neckband tattoo=citizen  Hand tattoos=type of citizen (consider that the hand tattoo is different for nobles and slaves, changing depending on the house)

So no it isn't needed if one doesn't mind more complexity, and it's also there for coded reasons.  I'm thinking "Disnelyland lifetime pass of awesomeness" but Tuluk doesn't have any rides that I know of (yet) so I just don't know.  Just don't call it the "Magick Kingdom".

[evilcabbage]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

[Lizzie]

Ooohkay...I think it's sinking in now. Thanks Nyr for turning the explanation around and reciting it backward for me. It actually does help

[Lizzie]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

Actually no it isn't that simple, which is why I didn't "get it."

If it were that simple, then "type of citizen" would mean "citizen" by default, and thus negate the need for any other "citizen" notation.

[evilcabbage]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

Actually no it isn't that simple, which is why I didn't "get it."

If it were that simple, then "type of citizen" would mean "citizen" by default, and thus negate the need for any other "citizen" notation.

I meant in the generic citizen sense of "this guy lives in the city as a slave, or a commoner, or a noble, or a what have you".

[Lizzie]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

Actually no it isn't that simple, which is why I didn't "get it."

If it were that simple, then "type of citizen" would mean "citizen" by default, and thus negate the need for any other "citizen" notation.

I meant in the generic citizen sense of "this guy lives in the city as a slave, or a commoner, or a noble, or a what have you".

In order to be a slave, commoner, or citizen of Tuluk, you must BE A CITIZEN. ICly - this is important. OOCly - it is not. OOCly, it's a matter of code, which Nyr has already explained, and Molten Heart has also helped me wade through.

What you are explaining is the IC situation, which really doesn't have anything to do with the changes. What your explaining, is actually confusing the issue, not helping it, because the issue is a code-issue, not an IC issue.

[Molten Heart]

In order to be a slave, commoner, or citizen of Tuluk, you must BE A CITIZEN.

I would argue that one wouldn't HAVE to be a citizen to be a slave, BUT they will certainly need a tattoo if they want to participate in coded Tuluki only type activities.

[Eurynomos]

D:

[Delirium]

Honestly, I would strongly support having the band tattoo always be on the neck, just as the stars are always on the hands.

Easier to target codewise, and just makes sense IC.

[Ouroboros]

For Lizzie and anyone else lost in the sea of posts so far:

The band is being used because it's easier to target via code and has little to do with thematic reasons. Yes, in practical terms, it's now redundant. But it's staying in use because it's easier to have code check for one object than several. Especially given how frequently Ginka will be forced to check for these tattoos now. So they're staying.

As others have pointed out, the same logic dictates it's a heck of a lot simpler if this band was kept to the neck location only, both in terms of code as well as needless complexity. It would even permit canned emotes on Ginka's end regarding the checking of such tattoos since they'd be in one place always. No one seems to have an issue with these being kept to the neck only, and those who've posted on the matter seem to be requesting it. Of all the improvements suggested so far, this is the simplest and most practical one. Nyr doesn't seem keen on this however and/or is mulling it over quietly. Forecast on the band being simplified to the neck location here on? Cloudy at best.

The colors of the band can be confusing as several have stated, have long-since lost their meaning, and would likely make more sense if changed to red and white in order to reflect the colors of the city a citizen is part of. They won't be changed at this point however. And since this would have been an ideal time to change them along with the rest of the tattoo-based changes, I don't see staff getting involved in changing them down the road either. It's a minor issue, and sits under a microscope due to the topic in question. Once this is past, it'll be far too minor an issue to even consider devoting time to. We'll be living with this, as we have so far.

The Gol is defined as the area within Tuluk's walls. Northern tribals from here on shouldn't be inked with either the citizenship (band) or caste (hand) tattoos, unless they were born inside the city and/or become citizens later in their lives. There may be further changes/updates to how tribals will be dealt with, pending a staff-internal discussion taking place currently. Stay posted.

Beyond that, we can look forward to the documentation of tattoos being expanded soon with more information about their history and applications. Personal note to staff? This would be a good place to justify why the citizenship tattoo colors don't actually match the city's colors, for future generations of players. Perhaps some history on the choice of colors can be dug up and assimilated, or something made up entirely from scratch. Whatever link to Kadius could also be hinted at in that same doc, to answer the mystery.

That about recaps things, I think.

[James de Monet]

Geez you guys. I don't see the fact that the band tattoo may be redundant as being all that weird.

Look at RL soldiers. They wear a flag on their sleeve to let you know they're American (or what-have-you). They also wear a tape that says "U.S. Army" to let you know they're in a certain branch. Is it redundant? Yes. But they still do it. The flag is easier to identify from a distance, just like a colored band on the neck would be easier to see from a distance than to tell what that thing on their hand is (especially if the person is turned away from you).

Soldiers also wear a rank patch. Could it be considered to make the flag doubly redundant? Kind of, yes. But the Army assumes (correctly) that other organizations might want to steal their rank markings. Just like a six pointed star might be appropriated by another Zalanthan organization. But a rank patch and a tape means U.S. Army Lieutenant just like a six pointed star and a band means Tuluki commoner.

Is this really so hard to accept?

[Nyr]

Of all the improvements suggested so far, this is the simplest and most practical one. Nyr doesn't seem keen on this however and/or is mulling it over quietly.

I started out in that camp for exactly those reasons.  I changed my mind after a discussion with a staff member about some RP possibilities on it.

Since it

a) has been possible for at least 10 years to put it in multiple places, and
b) isn't cramping anyone's RP to keep it that way, and
c) is actually something that can provide some options to flesh out PC RP for backstories, and
d) is only really bothersome in a "well that could be simpler" sort of way, and
e) is a fraction of one particular recent change in Tuluk that (by itself) is also a fraction of the totality of changes in Tuluk we've done (dissolving both Orders, rewriting Tuluki templarate documentation, working out new templarate uniforms in conjunction with the fashion documentation, executing and historically retconning the Hlum IC) or are planning to do in the near future (shadow artist implementation soon, and more besides that hasn't been hinted at), and
f) is (so far?) a half-hearted debate over the availability of a few tattoo locations for one tattoo...which seems a little laughable to us compared to all of the extensive stuff done in point E, and
g) is already implemented this way right now, therefore it'd actually take more work to un-implement it at this point than it would be to just leave it the way it is, then

yeah...I mean...I'd maybe give up on that dream of it just being one tattoo location...it's really not that important in the grand scheme of things, this is over and done. 

[Ouroboros]

Geez you guys. I don't see the fact that the band tattoo may be redundant as being all that weird. ... Is this really so hard to accept?

Not at all. It can be very easily justified in a million ways, with very little thought. It just doesn't make it any less redundant. The only reason its redundancy even blipped on anyone's radar is the fact before this change it wasn't redundant. It actually served a purpose when inked by itself. Given this redundancy surfaced now as a result of this change, it only seems logical that it would be pointed out and questioned on whether it has a need to exist at all. Apparently it does, for coded reasons, and I for one am perfectly happy with that. It might not serve an IC purpose, but at least it serves an OOC one.

Of course I could have thrown oil to the fire by pointing out the band tattoo could have been removed entirely and the actual citizenship code which does exist used in it's place. It could be just as easily applied to a character in chargen as a tattoo can be, and would solve the issue of the band's visibility entirely. PC's could look at someone's hands for proof of citizenship, seeing as every caste member is a citizen, and Ginka could check against a PC's citizenship status without the hassle of a PC having to remove and replace clothing every time, um... Ginka would need to check, for reasons best found out IC. But that would have opened a whole other can of worms in the discussion, so best keep a lid on it, eh?

I started out in that camp for exactly those reasons.  I changed my mind after a discussion with a staff member about some RP possibilities on it.

Whew, at least we're not crazy for suggesting it then! It helps when you share things like that, and you're right in your reasoning. It's certainly easier to just leave it be than to try and change it, even in an effort to simplify it. That tends to be the reason many problematic situations remain in RL as well, costs more to fix them than to let them be. Either way, we'll live. The reasons this band needs to exist are bound to cause a lot more turmoil than it's placement anyway, but it was good to at least discuss it through.

Edit: Typos.

[Jherlen]

Here's a good reason why Tuluki's might have the band on the neck even if tattoos are also on the hands:

Hands can get dirty. They can get burned, bloodied, scraped up, mangled, bitten, or even chopped off. I'd say the hands of a lower-caste Tuluki may not always be in great shape.

The neck, though... well, if too much abuse is applied to that, the question of whether or not the corpse was a citizen usually isn't all that important anyway.

I don't always make apologies for Muk, but when I do, it's usually a pretty lame one.

[Twilight]

Its actually the RP possbilities of fake tattoos that excite me in terms of RP opportunities.  Southern spies, but also folks who get tattoos to spite Tuluk, like an out of the way tattooist that changes your six prong to a seven prong (with a custom description describing this), or gives you a northern templar caste tattoo, or approximation thereof.  Of course, one would think that would be as good a way as a gem to get yourself dead in the North...

I don't see the big deal about one or two tattoos.  It could be three, it could be five.  It could be on your ears (okay, that would be kind of cool in general, and moreso with earless exiles, but I digress) and left pinky.  Doesn't matter, doesn't really need to make sense.  Culture sometimes just isn't sensible.  Perhaps the whole reason the tattoos exist was that Muk foresaw the current IC situation, and started the entire tradition from the beginning to benefit now.

I do wonder how he did that as a "warrior-mage" rather than a "redacted".

[evilcabbage]

Its actually the RP possbilities of fake tattoos that excite me in terms of RP opportunities.  Southern spies, but also folks who get tattoos to spite Tuluk, like an out of the way tattooist that changes your six prong to a seven prong (with a custom description describing this), or gives you a northern templar caste tattoo, or approximation thereof.  Of course, one would think that would be as good a way as a gem to get yourself dead in the North...

I don't see the big deal about one or two tattoos.  It could be three, it could be five.  It could be on your ears (okay, that would be kind of cool in general, and moreso with earless exiles, but I digress) and left pinky.  Doesn't matter, doesn't really need to make sense.  Culture sometimes just isn't sensible.  Perhaps the whole reason the tattoos exist was that Muk foresaw the current IC situation, and started the entire tradition from the beginning to benefit now.

I do wonder how he did that as a "warrior-mage" rather than a "redacted".

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

[Nyr]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers.

It's actually not well-publicized in documentation.  Just in staff-created stories that may or may not be exactly accurate, meant to reveal some things in a fun way.

[Twilight]

Its actually the RP possbilities of fake tattoos that excite me in terms of RP opportunities.  Southern spies, but also folks who get tattoos to spite Tuluk, like an out of the way tattooist that changes your six prong to a seven prong (with a custom description describing this), or gives you a northern templar caste tattoo, or approximation thereof.  Of course, one would think that would be as good a way as a gem to get yourself dead in the North...

I don't see the big deal about one or two tattoos.  It could be three, it could be five.  It could be on your ears (okay, that would be kind of cool in general, and moreso with earless exiles, but I digress) and left pinky.  Doesn't matter, doesn't really need to make sense.  Culture sometimes just isn't sensible.  Perhaps the whole reason the tattoos exist was that Muk foresaw the current IC situation, and started the entire tradition from the beginning to benefit now.

I do wonder how he did that as a "warrior-mage" rather than a "redacted".

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

You, sir, need a lesson in snarkiness.

I'm fairly sure the only way I have ever seen him described in official docs is as a "warrior-mage" if it is referenced at all, non-official GDB stories and IC events notwithstanding.

[slvrmoontiger]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

Umm power to see the future and psionic powers don't mean the same thing? Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future or has foreknowledge of future events doesn't mean they can read minds or figure stuff out psionically. Don't see where you are getting these two things are connected.

[Desertman]

Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future

.....

I would love to know your RL point of reference for this.

[evilcabbage]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

Umm power to see the future and psionic powers don't mean the same thing? Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future or has foreknowledge of future events doesn't mean they can read minds or figure stuff out psionically. Don't see where you are getting these two things are connected.

Please reread the entire thing you just quoted where Muk Utep released a blast of psionic energy and then a big rush of mutants and shit charged out and attacked the Mantis invaders during their occupation of Tuluk.