So about those Tuluki tattoos...

[Nyr]

Tuluki Caste Tattoo Room

The NPC in this room allows you to set up your character with appropriate
Tuluk caste tattoos. People born in Tuluk to Tuluki citizens are usually
citizens, and all Tuluki citizens are marked with these tattoos. Skip this
step if your character was NOT born a Tuluki citizen. When you've finished,
you can go 'down' to enter the game.

NOTE: Once you leave, the ONLY way to get caste tattoos is to get them in-
game from a Templar. If your PC was always a Tuluki citizen, and should
have the appropriate tattoos, get them now. 

   Available tattoos:

   1 - a tattoo of a six-pronged star
   Worn on the hands, this signifies unaffiliated commoner status. All
   Tuluki citizens wear this tattoo. Example: "buy 1 hands"

   2 - a blue and purple inked band
   Worn on the neck, face or head, signifies residence in Gol Krathu.
   If you are from anywhere in the Northlands (except Luir's Outpost),
   you would wear this tattoo. Example: type "buy 2 neck"

Note that these tattoos ONLY go in these places, and you only need ONE
of each tattoo.  Tattoos are very important in Tuluki culture. For more
details, please see:  http://www.armageddon.org/general/tattoos/

This is going to be changed due to frequent confusion.  We think it makes more sense to do it this way, the docs back it up, we just need to be better at interpreting those docs and explaining them.

Tuluki Caste Tattoo Room

The NPC in this room allows you to set up your character with appropriate
Tuluki tattoos. People born in Tuluk to Tuluki citizens are usually
citizens, and all Tuluki citizens are marked with these tattoos. Skip this
step if your character was NOT born a Tuluki citizen. When you've finished,
you can go 'down' to enter the game.

NOTE: Once you leave, you can't get these kinds of tattoos in-game without serious IC work.
If your PC was always a Tuluki citizen, and should have the appropriate tattoos, get them now. 

   Available tattoos:

   1 - a blue and purple inked band
   Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
   status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
   you have this tattoo.
   Example: type "buy 1 neck"


   2 - a tattoo of a six-pronged star
   There are four castes in Tuluk:  slave, commoner, noble, and templar. 
   This tattoo (inked on the hands) signifies status as a member of the
   commoner caste. All Tuluki commoners would have this tattoo.
   Example: "buy 2 hands"


Note that these tattoos ONLY go in these places, and you only need ONE
of each tattoo.  Tattoos are very important in Tuluki culture. For more
details, please see:  http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Tattoos

I've also proposed some staff-side discussion on improving this process for Tulukis, but that will take some more time to come about.

Any thoughts or concerns before this goes live?

[bcw81]

Does this mean we're no longer going to be seeing tribals born in the Gol Krathu (but not Tuluk) region with the neckband?

[Cutthroat]

I would only change the wording slightly:

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you have this tattoo.

to

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you must get this tattoo.

I understand the phrasing of the first way is supposed to mean "a typical Tuluki citizen would have this tattoo", but the "you have" phrasing can also seem like "you already have this tattoo codedly". The description of the six-pronged star should also be changed at the end in a similar way just to be consistent.

[Nyr]

Does this mean we're no longer going to be seeing tribals born in the Gol Krathu (but not Tuluk) region with the neckband?

If you have that neckband, you're a citizen of Tuluk.
You can still be a tribal and be a citizen of Tuluk, but to be a citizen of Tuluk, you have to have that tattoo.
And if you're a citizen of Tuluk and you're not a slave, noble, or templar, you'd have that commoner tattoo.

It's a lot more simple.  Now, we're looking at ways to let folks be tribal and start in Tuluk and NOT be Tuluki citizens...but that's part of what I mentioned earlier for discussion on staff side.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

[Barsook]

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

+1

[Bushranger]

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

+1

+1

Since Undertuluk was removed adding the Tribal Market as a second starting location in Tuluk makes sense. It will also allow the opportunity (probably somewhere down the line when staff get time) to add tribal starting shops to add some different flavour to the Northland Tribals.

[Nyr]

We were looking at that too...more details on that depending on what we can do codedly.

[slvrmoontiger]

If there were to be a starting place in the Tribal Market in Tuluk and another one in the Sanctuary then anyone that points to the Sanctuary in the Hall of Kings should automatically receive the required tattoo just a request asking where they want to have the red and blue band tattoo would be all that would be needed they'd input that and then be tattooed and be sent to the starter shops and then on they go.

[Ouroboros]

Given the change you're proposing, which is basically eliminating the band from those born in the Northlands but not inside Tuluk, it seems to me the band tattoo becomes entirely redundant. Before this proposed change, both citizenship and social caste was denoted by the hand star tattoo, while the band offered something the star didn't (a potential birthright outside citizenship) and thus had a reason to exist. Given every single Tuluki social caste has an according star tattoo for their hands, denoting them as citizens, what's the point of the band after this change, when all it implies is the same citizenship the hand tattoos offer?

I would humbly suggest the band tattoo is removed as a citizenship requirement and applied to whatever plans you have in store for non-citizens of Northland heritage. At least that way it'll serve a valid purpose. While you're at it, and in the mood for retcons, I might also suggest changing the colors to a combination that isn't shared by House Kadius. Mostly to avoid potential confusion from new players, but also just in the spirit of wrapping up loose ends in the North. If the meaning of the band can be changed, and is apparently set to change, I don't see why the colors can't be changed as well.

Redundancy aside, I'm also not crazy about increasing the number of locations the band can be inked on, as it starts to become frivolous. The band isn't worn for aesthetic reasons, it's law and tradition and neither of those are known for being flexible. Social caste tattoos are worn on the hands, not the "hands, or the wrists, or the forearms". Bands should be treated with the same, and by their description as a band, they should be inked only on the neck. It seems to me that this change is coming about simply because someone wanted to be able to wear their armor, keep their face pretty, and still showcase their "clearly" deep-set patriotism for all to see. Those players can simply not wear gloves if they're intent on showing their allegiance at all times, especially if this change goes through and makes the point of the band meaningless (since it won't offer any additional information than their star tattoo already does).

[Barsook]

might also suggest changing the colors to a combination that isn't shared by House Kadius.

I quite agree here and I was wondered why the share?

[Nyr]

Before this proposed change, both citizenship and social caste was denoted by the hand star tattoo, while the band offered something the star didn't (a potential birthright outside citizenship) and thus had a reason to exist. Given every single Tuluki social caste has an according star tattoo for their hands, denoting them as citizens, what's the point of the band after this change, when all it implies is the same citizenship the hand tattoos offer?

Every single Tuluki social caste does not have a star tattoo for their hands.
Slaves have a hexagon.
Commoners have a six-pronged star.
Nobles have a seven-pronged star.
Templars will have a sun tattoo.

I would humbly suggest the band tattoo is removed as a citizenship requirement and applied to whatever plans you have in store for non-citizens of Northland heritage. At least that way it'll serve a valid purpose.

Per the docs that were already there and have been there for years...this isn't being removed as a citizenship requirement.  It's being clarified properly for the first time.

While you're at it, and in the mood for retcons, I might also suggest changing the colors to a combination that isn't shared by House Kadius.

Tuluk was around first.  Kadius can go get its own colors.

Mostly to avoid potential confusion from new players, but also just in the spirit of wrapping up loose ends in the North. If the meaning of the band can be changed, and is apparently set to change, I don't see why the colors can't be changed as well.

This is not an IC retcon.  This was bad interpretation of the docs.

Redundancy aside, I'm also not crazy about increasing the number of locations the band can be inked on, as it starts to become frivolous. The band isn't worn for aesthetic reasons, it's law and tradition and neither of those are known for being flexible. Social caste tattoos are worn on the hands, not the "hands, or the wrists, or the forearms".

Caste tattoos are worn on the hands, yes.

Bands should be treated with the same, and by their description as a band, they should be inked only on the neck. It seems to me that this change is coming about simply because someone wanted to be able to wear their armor, keep their face pretty, and still showcase their "clearly" deep-set patriotism for all to see. Those players can simply not wear gloves if they're intent on showing their allegiance at all times, especially if this change goes through and makes the point of the band meaningless (since it won't offer any additional information than their star tattoo already does).

Not really.  It's coming about because we are implementing some code that needs tattoo visibility.

The band shows your citizenship.  Your caste tattoo shows your caste.  Citizens have access to certain things.  Members of certain castes will have access to other sorts of things.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd agree with having that band automatically tatted on the neck, and the caste star tatted on the hands. Then you could bypass choosing it at all and simply automatically apply it when the character points to Tuluki Citizen. Those pointing to Northlands wouldn't be tattooed.

[Barsook]

I'd agree with having that band automatically tatted on the neck, and the caste star tatted on the hands. Then you could bypass choosing it at all and simply automatically apply it when the character points to Tuluki Citizen. Those pointing to Northlands wouldn't be tattooed.

I think that would be the easier way.  Less confusion.

[Ouroboros]

Every single Tuluki social caste does not have a star tattoo for their hands.

Correct, but irrelevant to my point. That point being, every single Tuluki social caste has some specific tattoo for their hands. Which by itself implies citizenship, and makes the band redundant.

Per the docs that were already there and have been there for years...this isn't being removed as a citizenship requirement.  It's being clarified properly for the first time.

Fair enough. But the fact remains that due to this misconception, a certain type of background has existed in the game for years. Namely that of someone born outside Tuluk but within the Northlands, most of who were tribals. The fact that numerous characters over the years have inked themselves with the band but not the star supports this clearly, and until now, staff has supported the existence of these characters as well.

While I can appreciate that this redundancy has existed since the beginning and is just now being brought to light, it continues to be no less redundant from the moment the option the documentation discrepancy offered no longer exists.

Tuluk was around first.  Kadius can go get its own colors.

Kadius didn't though, and decided instead to steal the colors of the citizenship band their House started in. Probably for no other reason than to fashionably match their House clothing with their ink, knowing those silly Kadians. Kadius also isn't undergoing massive changes right now, all made in the spirit of improving the Northlands experience. And lastly, those colors make little sense in current times, when Tuluk's colors as a city are red and white.

This is not an IC retcon.  This was bad interpretation of the docs.

Given how many characters have lived and died wearing only the band while not being considered citizens of the city... I'd say this rather is an IC retcon. I get that it was a mistake in the docs, but when it's prevailed literally for years and entire plots and backgrounds have included it... It's become part of the IC fabric of the game.

Not really.  It's coming about because we are implementing some code that needs tattoo visibility.

Eh? That makes little sense, because every location can just be as easily covered up (and often is). Someone that needs to show their ink can simply remove whatever's covering it. By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function. The shoulder location for example doesn't even make sense for this purpose, since most of the time someone's wearing sleeved clothing that would hide that tattoo IC even if it doesn't in code due to being a separate wearloc.

Perhaps you can clarify this new code's needs a bit? Because it sounds like this is something that would be more appropriately dealt with by a new tattoo wearloc, than by offering numerous locations for a tattoo on the hopes that they won't be covered up in code for a piece of clothing, armor, or other object. A PC should have the option to simply remove an article of clothing and show their tattoo to whatever code's being added, not have to plan their gear and clothing around a tattoo being visible at all times.

The band shows your citizenship.  Your caste tattoo shows your caste.  Citizens have access to certain things.  Members of certain castes will have access to other sorts of things.

But every caste member is a citizen, which makes separate citizenship tattoos redundant. Whatever benefits a member of a certain caste might have, they still have the same added benefits every other citizen has. What I'm suggesting is to re-purpose the band tattoo in a way that isn't redundant, and ties back somewhat to what's being taken away by this "clarification" of the docs; the ability to showcase Northern birthright without citizenship.

I think we're past fearing retcons at this point, be they IC or OOC in nature, given all the changes the North has seen as of late. I can't see a reason why the band tattoo can't be retconned as well, to actually offer something useful to the game. Especially if you actually have plans on including Northern tribals and other non-citizens in some fashion. This band was how they identified themselves before this clarification, so it makes good sense to re-purpose it for their exclusive use.

[ShaLeah]

I never quite understood why the heck they even have a choice of where to put anything. Everyone should have them in the same place. Idiot proof.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Whether you are going to remove the band or not, Nyr, gotta agree with Ourob ... Org ... Obir ... whatever. Ouroboros. They are reduntant tats. I can understand not changing them, but I also understand changing them.

I also think they probably should reflect Tuluk's colors, as well.

I don't know about Arm, but in another Diku code I played with, it was possible to hide numerous objects per wear location. In fact, pretty sure this is possible in Arm, too, since closing a cloak hides your chestwear, weapons, and belt, and gloves hide ten rings and the tats on your hand. I'd consider fiddling with this if I were you, boss. That backpack revealing a tat thing has always bugged me.

[Wish]

Kinda agree about the band tattoo being redundant and a bit oddly colored- one problem though: every npc in Tuluk has one, so....yeah, that'd be a BITCH to change.

[James de Monet]

By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function.

This seems somewhat silly. If tattoos denote citizenship and you have a need to display that you're a citizen, don't cover them up. That seems like sense.

If the Sun King says the tattoos go on your neck and people want to be recognized as citizens, guess what? Kadius isn't going to be selling too many high collars in the Ivory. Because smart citizens care more about looking like good citizens than they do about a fancy choker. Fashion would almost certainly follow function in this regard (and in fact, would probably engender styles like silk jackets with lace collars, so the tattoos could be seen, etc).

[Molten Heart]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

The band also used to mean something different, it  indicated that a person was born in Gol Krathu (The area around Tuluk and not necessarily Tuluk itself).  Local tribals, hunters, lumberjacks, etc that associated with the city but weren't born in the city would be people that would have this tattoo and not the hand tattoo.

Also some people that wouldn't have this tattoo but would have the commoner hand tattoo would be someone that wasn't born there but came to Tuluk later in life.  This might mean they were a foreigner and earned their citizenship, or maybe they were a foreigner before they became a slave.  This was also the case with Hlum nobility, (at least in one exceptional case) but wait... what's Hlum nobility?  I think I might be imagining that last part. :-)

The idea is that each tattoo does mean something and that seems to be changing which is fine.  I thought it might help if posters knew the origins of the tattoos.

[Ouroboros]

The band also used to mean something different, it  indicated that a person was born in Gol Krathu.  <snip> The idea is that each tattoo does mean something and that seems to be changing which is fine.  I thought it might help if posters knew the origins of the tattoos.

Point is, the band meant something other than what it was intended to apparently, for many years now. From what Nyr has shared it was always supposed to mean citizenship, not birth, and that's why it's being "changed" now.

As far as the colors go... Tuluk did indeed come first as Nyr joked, so it's far likelier that Kadius took their colors from the band (given the House was founded there) than that Tuluk took their color from Kadius. Either way though... It's ancient history and in this point in time only serves to confuse. The colors have become meaningless in their association with Tuluk, whatever that association was originally intended to be. And my suggestion to change them follows in line with all the other streamlining changes Tuluk has recently undergone, to clarify and simplify things. Whatever association Kadius meant to draw from the tattoo not only is long forgotten, but to the few that would know it in the first place (Muk and a few historians), the gesture is remembered and loses nothing by Tuluk's citizenship tattoo actually reflecting that city's colors.

By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function.

This seems somewhat silly. If tattoos denote citizenship and you have a need to display that you're a citizen, don't cover them up. That seems like sense.

I couldn't agree more actually, you just missed my point. That being, that the tattoo should go in one place (the neck), and citizens should either be required to have it exposed, or required to expose it when asked to, or not required to expose it manually at all by having whatever code's being developed check for them or look for it in a new and always-visible location.

What I find silly myself is offering increasingly multiple choices about where that darn tattoo can be placed, just to seemingly accommodate it's coded visibility without it being covered by gear. It's a citizenship ink (at least as of now), it should go in one place only just like social caste inks do, in a formalized and traditional fashion.

Taking that further, I was trying to explain that due to it's redundancy, it's constant visibility not only shouldn't be a concern, but that it doesn't even need to exist. If we're going to keep it as a citizenship ink though, let it go only on the neck and be as hidden or visible as a PC chooses. Their citizenship is still outright stated by their hand tattoos, so whether the band is visible or not doesn't matter and it can thus be safely restricted to one location. Otherwise let's get rid of it entirely as a symbol of citizenship, change it's colors to something tribally appropriate (or leave them be), and let it simply signify what it has to players for years: Birth in the Gol Krathu, not citizenship of Tuluk. That was actually the only thing about the colors that seemed to make sense, the fact they denoted something outside of Tuluk itself and thus had reason not to reflect the city's official colors.

Kinda agree about the band tattoo being redundant and a bit oddly colored- one problem though: every npc in Tuluk has one, so....yeah, that'd be a BITCH to change.

Find & Replace. Save. Reboot. Party.

[Barsook]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

I think that was the reason behind that but it doesn't make sense.  Sure, Kadius may have a large say in the city but they don't own the city.  I think a red and white band makes more sense, if the tattoo has to stay.

[ShaLeah]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

I think that was the reason behind that but it doesn't make sense.  Sure, Kadius may have a large say in the city but they don't own the city.  I think a red and white band makes more sense, if the tattoo has to stay.

Also if that IS the case and Kadius had ANYTHING to do with the liberation they would be very hard pressed to remain in a certain other city much like another sadly overstepping the boundaries of GMH neutrality have had to suffer in the aftermath. Even mute reason to not have those colors.

[Nyr]

Every single Tuluki social caste does not have a star tattoo for their hands.

Correct, but irrelevant to my point. That point being, every single Tuluki social caste has some specific tattoo for their hands. Which by itself implies citizenship, and makes the band redundant.

Ok, cool.  However, we aren't going to do that.  Thanks for your feedback, though.

Per the docs that were already there and have been there for years...this isn't being removed as a citizenship requirement.  It's being clarified properly for the first time.

Fair enough. But the fact remains that due to this misconception, a certain type of background has existed in the game for years. Namely that of someone born outside Tuluk but within the Northlands, most of who were tribals. The fact that numerous characters over the years have inked themselves with the band but not the star supports this clearly, and until now, staff has supported the existence of these characters as well.

While I can appreciate that this redundancy has existed since the beginning and is just now being brought to light, it continues to be no less redundant from the moment the option the documentation discrepancy offered no longer exists.

Cool.  Thank you for your feedback, but we aren't going to go with that.

Tuluk was around first.  Kadius can go get its own colors.

Kadius didn't though, and decided instead to steal the colors of the citizenship band their House started in. Probably for no other reason than to fashionably match their House clothing with their ink, knowing those silly Kadians. Kadius also isn't undergoing massive changes right now, all made in the spirit of improving the Northlands experience. And lastly, those colors make little sense in current times, when Tuluk's colors as a city are red and white.

Doesn't seem like a big deal.  Some clans are inevitably going to have color or style stuff that overlaps.  If we choose to retcon it or improve it in the future, we will.  For now, it's okay.

This is not an IC retcon.  This was bad interpretation of the docs.

Given how many characters have lived and died wearing only the band while not being considered citizens of the city... I'd say this rather is an IC retcon. I get that it was a mistake in the docs, but when it's prevailed literally for years and entire plots and backgrounds have included it... It's become part of the IC fabric of the game.

Okay, cool.  But we're rolling with it and it's not an IC retcon, it's an OOC retcon for making things make more sense.

Not really.  It's coming about because we are implementing some code that needs tattoo visibility.

Eh? That makes little sense, because every location can just be as easily covered up (and often is). Someone that needs to show their ink can simply remove whatever's covering it. By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function. The shoulder location for example doesn't even make sense for this purpose, since most of the time someone's wearing sleeved clothing that would hide that tattoo IC even if it doesn't in code due to being a separate wearloc.

I misspoke. We're implementing code that needs tattoos.  It's easier to assign it to this tattoo than to four types of caste tattoos that each can have over a dozen color variations.  We're rolling with this, sorry you disagree!

Perhaps you can clarify this new code's needs a bit? Because it sounds like this is something that would be more appropriately dealt with by a new tattoo wearloc, than by offering numerous locations for a tattoo on the hopes that they won't be covered up in code for a piece of clothing, armor, or other object. A PC should have the option to simply remove an article of clothing and show their tattoo to whatever code's being added, not have to plan their gear and clothing around a tattoo being visible at all times.

Find out IC.

The band shows your citizenship.  Your caste tattoo shows your caste.  Citizens have access to certain things.  Members of certain castes will have access to other sorts of things.

But every caste member is a citizen, which makes separate citizenship tattoos redundant. Whatever benefits a member of a certain caste might have, they still have the same added benefits every other citizen has. What I'm suggesting is to re-purpose the band tattoo in a way that isn't redundant, and ties back somewhat to what's being taken away by this "clarification" of the docs; the ability to showcase Northern birthright without citizenship.

I understand you believe it is redundant.  Maybe it is.  And we don't really care if it is or not at this point.  I tossed this up as a courtesy looking for problems with it before we went with it in-game with the change to that tattoo room.  The stuff you're responding with isn't a problem with it--it's you wanting it to be something else entirely.  Sorry, but we're going to disagree on this.

I think we're past fearing retcons at this point, be they IC or OOC in nature, given all the changes the North has seen as of late. I can't see a reason why the band tattoo can't be retconned as well, to actually offer something useful to the game. Especially if you actually have plans on including Northern tribals and other non-citizens in some fashion. This band was how they identified themselves before this clarification, so it makes good sense to re-purpose it for their exclusive use.

Nah.  We're not doing that.  Thanks for your feedback.

[Nyr]

The change to the tattoo starting room is now live.  If your character happens to be a tribal "from Gol Krathu" and you never got your commoner caste tattoo, then please put in a request and we can get your commoner caste tattoo added!

[Barsook]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

I think that was the reason behind that but it doesn't make sense.  Sure, Kadius may have a large say in the city but they don't own the city.  I think a red and white band makes more sense, if the tattoo has to stay.

Also if that IS the case and Kadius had ANYTHING to do with the liberation they would be very hard pressed to remain in a certain other city much like another sadly overstepping the boundaries of GMH neutrality have had to suffer in the aftermath. Even mute reason to not have those colors.

Too bad this a "find out IC" thing, but still, wouldn't leave to some good roleplaying and plots?

The change to the tattoo starting room is now live.  If your character happens to be a tribal "from Gol Krathu" and you never got your commoner caste tattoo, then please put in a request and we can get your commoner caste tattoo added!

Thank you!

[manipura]

What sort of request should this be filed as?  Character related description change maybe?  Or just a general game related question request?  Something else?

[Barsook]

From the help files:

Freil's Rest
(Regions of Tuluk)

After the destruction of Tuluk in the 19th Age, the Northlands were in shambles. Cagey Kadian merchants managed to keep hold on their resources, and worked slowly on rebuilding, mostly around the estate which had once belonged to Medichi of Kadius. The village served as home for many of the refugees of Tuluk, providing them with some shelter and protection from the incursions of Black Moon raiders. With time, this village came to be known as Freil's Rest.

The village became the center of civilization for the Gol Krathu under the rule of the conquering Allanaki forces, until the Liberation in 1516 by the allied Tuluki forces. Now what was once Freil's Rest is nestled within the newborn city-state of New Tuluk, serving as the city's merchant district, although still often referred to as Freil's.

I guess I'm wrong, there is no reference of the band sharing the colors of the House.  Though can it be taken that way?

[Ouroboros]

I tossed this up as a courtesy looking for problems with it before we went with it in-game with the change to that tattoo room.  The stuff you're responding with isn't a problem with it--it's you wanting it to be something else entirely.  Sorry, but we're going to disagree on this.

Any thoughts or concerns before this goes live?

You asked for thoughts or concerns. We shared. Pleasure doing business.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Heh. Knock it off.

[Nyr]

I tossed this up as a courtesy looking for problems with it before we went with it in-game with the change to that tattoo room.  The stuff you're responding with isn't a problem with it--it's you wanting it to be something else entirely.  Sorry, but we're going to disagree on this.

Any thoughts or concerns before this goes live?

You asked for thoughts or concerns. We shared. Pleasure doing business.

I probably should have made this more clear.

This isn't similar to the shadow artist system, where we are putting in something completely new that is an IC change.  We wanted feedback and detailed amounts of it, hence the fact that the thread there went almost 20 pages or so.  We've even made changes to that system and I expect that will go in soon; some might be pleasantly surprised with what we've done based on feedback!

In this case?  This is a very small OOC change that we're going with whether players like it or not.  We need one tattoo that works for the sake of the changes we're doing in this city-state.  We reviewed the docs and the docs already back this up.  We're simply bringing the game to where the docs are and making it less confusing for new players that might not get it, and also making it simpler for those already in-game.

What I was looking to do here was to clarify questions like this:

Does this mean we're no longer going to be seeing tribals born in the Gol Krathu (but not Tuluk) region with the neckband?

get constructive feedback that we can use to improve the wording:

I would only change the wording slightly:

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you have this tattoo.

to

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you must get this tattoo.

I understand the phrasing of the first way is supposed to mean "a typical Tuluki citizen would have this tattoo", but the "you have" phrasing can also seem like "you already have this tattoo codedly". The description of the six-pronged star should also be changed at the end in a similar way just to be consistent.

or even suggestions like this, which are great and requires more coding/consideration (and like I mentioned, we're looking at this kind of option tentatively):

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

rather than feedback that you think the whole thing is redundant, we should scrap it, we should retcon the tattoo itself, and you don't like people tattooing their bands on multiple locations even though they already have been and even though we've already coded things to react to that.  You're the only one providing that kind of feedback, so yeah, you're getting a little singled out.  We're not doing that.

So anyway, yes, thank you for your feedback, but that's not what we're going to do here.  It's a 10 minute change that we wanted to give a bit of notice on so people could ask questions, not a massive system overhaul.

[Ouroboros]

This is a very small OOC change that we're going with whether players like it or not.

It's a small OOC change to wording that has significant IC ramifications to anyone playing a character born in the Gol and lacking (by choice) citizenship. I fully understand this was a misinterpretation of the documentation on staff's part, and that as a fix it's minor. I don't feel that it's right to trivialize the effect it will have though, by saying it's simply a small change, will happen regardless what's said on it, and should have been that way to begin with. Yes, it should have been. But it wasn't for years, and players were functioning under a false pretense.

rather than feedback that you think the whole thing is redundant, we should scrap it, we should retcon the tattoo itself, and you don't like people tattooing their bands on multiple locations even though they already have been and even though we've already coded things to react to that.

Sorry, but the fact my feedback wasn't what you were looking for doesn't mean it wasn't feedback.

I do think it's redundant as it stands, yes, due to the change you're performing. It wasn't before, it is now. I didn't leave it at that though, I offered feedback on how it could be used in a manner that wasn't redundant, instead of just leaving it as is or scraping it altogether. You'd rather tie the new system to this one tattoo however, and that's fine. You explained the reasons for this and they make sense, at least from a convenience stand-point. That doesn't mean what you're planning is ideal for players though, and feedback on that should be welcome.

I do also think the band tattoo doesn't belong in multiple location, yes. I feel it should be standardized just as the hand tattoo is, so that if nothing else folks know where to look for it and because a band makes more sense on the neck thematically. That change would have no effect on the code you're implementing, any more than the hand tattoos being in one location would. If anything it would make it easier to target in code I imagine. Having it in multiple locations offers nothing additional to the change you're implementing, than having it on one does. Any given PC will either have it visible, or uncover it when required, regardless of its location and much as they will their hand tattoos. I also think that's relevant feedback when the topic of discussion is exactly that tattoo.

And lastly, yes, the colors are confusing. Not just to me. Would changing them be a significant improvement? No. Would it be an improvement at all? Yes. Especially when you and the rest of staff are investing what I imagine is an insane amount of time right now to revamp the city into a simpler and better version of it. If you'd like us to simply sit and the sidelines and silently watch as you go about it, that's fine. But you've made an effort to get feedback from players so far, and we would be remiss if we didn't point out even little issues that could be easily fixed.

You're the only one providing that kind of feedback, so yeah, you're getting a little singled out.  We're not doing that.

The fact I was the first to point out the issues I did doesn't mean I was alone in my opinion. You can clearly see that from the thread I imagine. I don't mind being singled out in the least however, so long as my feedback is heard and considered. Mostly because I invest my time in offering it and common courtesy dictates that's returned. You don't have to agree with me however, all I ask is that you try to keep an open mind when you're looking for feedback because nine-out-of-ten what you hear isn't going to be what you had in mind.

So anyway, yes, thank you for your feedback, but that's not what we're going to do here.  It's a 10 minute change that we wanted to give a bit of notice on so people could ask questions, not a massive system overhaul.

Limiting the location to the neck would take no more effort than the time it took me to write this sentence, since all that it would require is stating in chargen that it goes on the neck from here on. You wouldn't even need to retroactively change locations for players or NPC's, it could simply by an IC change in administration that states here on citizens are to be inked on the neck only. Changing the colors could be done in about 30 minutes of work, plus a reboot. Scraping it conceptually and keeping it for non-citizens of the Gol would take zero time to do, and from what you've said you're already investing time in discussing how to treat such tribals. It's not a massive system overhaul, they're minor changes that would improve things beyond what you were planning to do already. Our experience won't be made or broken over them though, no.

We're simply bringing the game to where the docs are and making it less confusing for new players that might not get it, and also making it simpler for those already in-game.

And that's what my feedback was aimed towards.

[Nyr]

This is a very small OOC change that we're going with whether players like it or not.

It's a small OOC change to wording that has significant IC ramifications to anyone playing a character born in the Gol and lacking (by choice) citizenship. I fully understand this was a misinterpretation of the documentation on staff's part, and that as a fix it's minor. I don't feel that it's right to trivialize the effect it will have though, by saying it's simply a small change, will happen regardless what's said on it, and should have been that way to begin with. Yes, it should have been. But it wasn't for years, and players were functioning under a false pretense.

If you lacked citizenship by choice--meaning you didn't have either tattoo at all--I'm afraid that's a choice made with repercussions that should be felt IC.  Arguably, they should have been felt already in the past IC, but we're fixing that.  If this is jarring to the player experience, it's unfortunate, but these are times of war.  It's not supposed to be easy to be a non-citizen in a city and we hope to reinforce that over time.

If you have one tattoo but not the other, we can fix that easily because this is an OOC change; you'll get the other tattoo added.

Sorry, but the fact my feedback wasn't what you were looking for doesn't mean it wasn't feedback.

I do think it's redundant as it stands, yes, due to the change you're performing. It wasn't before, it is now. I didn't leave it at that though, I offered feedback on how it could be used in a manner that wasn't redundant, instead of just leaving it as is or scraping it altogether. You'd rather tie the new system to this one tattoo however, and that's fine. You explained the reasons for this and they make sense, at least from a convenience stand-point. That doesn't mean what you're planning is ideal for players though, and feedback on that should be welcome.

I do also think the band tattoo doesn't belong in multiple location, yes. I feel it should be standardized just as the hand tattoo is, so that if nothing else folks know where to look for it and because a band makes more sense on the neck thematically. That change would have no effect on the code you're implementing, any more than the hand tattoos being in one location would. If anything it would make it easier to target in code I imagine. Having it in multiple locations offers nothing additional to the change you're implementing, than having it on one does. Any given PC will either have it visible, or uncover it when required, regardless of its location and much as they will their hand tattoos. I also think that's relevant feedback when the topic of discussion is exactly that tattoo.

And lastly, yes, the colors are confusing. Not just to me. Would changing them be a significant improvement? No. Would it be an improvement at all? Yes. Especially when you and the rest of staff are investing what I imagine is an insane amount of time right now to revamp the city into a simpler and better version of it. If you'd like us to simply sit and the sidelines and silently watch as you go about it, that's fine. But you've made an effort to get feedback from players so far, and we would be remiss if we didn't point out even little issues that could be easily fixed.

The fact I was the first to point out the issues I did doesn't mean I was alone in my opinion. You can clearly see that from the thread I imagine. I don't mind being singled out in the least however, so long as my feedback is heard and considered. Mostly because I invest my time in offering it and common courtesy dictates that's returned. You don't have to agree with me however, all I ask is that you try to keep an open mind when you're looking for feedback because nine-out-of-ten what you hear isn't going to be what you had in mind.

Fair enough.  I clarified what in particular I was looking for and why you going beyond that was not exactly what we were looking for...but I clarified already that this isn't really a negotiable change, so you really don't need to reiterate your position.  I understand you want it to be entirely different.  Unfortunately, we disagree.  Good luck either way. 

Limiting the location to the neck would take no more effort than the time it took me to write this sentence, since all that it would require is stating in chargen that it goes on the neck from here on. You wouldn't even need to retroactively change locations for players or NPC's, it could simply by an IC change in administration that states here on citizens are to be inked on the neck only. Changing the colors could be done in about 30 minutes of work, plus a reboot. Scraping it conceptually and keeping it for non-citizens of the Gol would take zero time to do, and from what you've said you're already investing time in discussing how to treat such tribals. It's not a massive system overhaul, they're minor changes that would improve things beyond what you were planning to do already. Our experience won't be made or broken over them though, no.

It's pretty moot since we're not doing any of what you're suggesting we should do, but I'd contend that changing documentation takes more than 0 time to do...I get what you're saying, you think this would be easy to do, and you're mostly right.  We just disagree on needing it.

We're simply bringing the game to where the docs are and making it less confusing for new players that might not get it, and also making it simpler for those already in-game.

And that's what my feedback was aimed towards.

Okay.  Well, we disagree.  Yes, it might make things less confusing, but then it takes it along a route we don't want to go down for Tuluk and the Northlands, so it gets shot down there.  No, we disagree that this would make it simpler for those already in-game except in the case of the color-scheme, where perhaps you have a point.  I'll find out why they're that color.  Not really interested in changing it though.  Thanks for your feedback.

[Jherlen]

Personally I'm all for automatically slapping the band on a PC's neck and the star on a PC's hands in the code, if they point at Tuluk. The documentation changes look good, but I think they're still too easy to misinterpret, get confused by, or ignore, especially for a new player.

If nothing else, maybe just change it so the band tattoo always goes on neck, and then change the room desc to just read "If you are a Tuluki commoner citizen, type buy 1 neck and buy 2 hands here".

[Ouroboros]

If you lacked citizenship by choice--meaning you didn't have either tattoo at all--I'm afraid that's a choice made with repercussions that should be felt IC.  Arguably, they should have been felt already in the past IC, but we're fixing that.  If this is jarring to the player experience, it's unfortunate, but these are times of war.  It's not supposed to be easy to be a non-citizen in a city and we hope to reinforce that over time. If you have one tattoo but not the other, we can fix that easily because this is an OOC change; you'll get the other tattoo added.

The problem isn't with someone lacking both, it's with someone only having one by choice in order to signify being born in the Gol but not a citizen of Tuluk. In the past, this was an in-between step if you like, between citizenship and being an outsider. That's what's now being removed.

Your offer to have tribals or others with only the band receive the caste tattoo won't make much sense, given those characters weren't meant to be citizens of the city, or in many cases, any city. You're essentially forcing citizenship on them, and future players of northern tribals, or a lack of recognition of their heritage. The alternative would be for them to request the removal of the band entirely since it no longer signifies what it used to, but that leaves them with nothing but an accent to prove they're born in the Gol and not southron barbarians. Not exactly an ideal for anyone in the middle of a war.

You said you're discussing how to deal with tribals of the Gol though, so I imagine we'll see how that pans out. I'd contest that if it involves the addition of new tattoos or other markings, the easiest would be to simply convert the documentation to chargen's old wording instead of the reverse, and mark anyone born in the Gol with a band. Such tribals of the Gol should theoretically still have the same access to the city that any citizen does, unless Muk's forgotten his tribal accent and the fact tribes built the very city. So from a coded stand-point the effect would be the same, regardless of whether you call it citizenship or heritage or birthright.

I'll let this rest though, as I think the topic's exhausted. If nothing else, you have some ideas to tinker with down the road if time and desire permits. I do appreciate your continuing to crowdsource the player base though, as it's an initiative long needed. Hopefully it won't discontinue.

[Nyr]

If you lacked citizenship by choice--meaning you didn't have either tattoo at all--I'm afraid that's a choice made with repercussions that should be felt IC.  Arguably, they should have been felt already in the past IC, but we're fixing that.  If this is jarring to the player experience, it's unfortunate, but these are times of war.  It's not supposed to be easy to be a non-citizen in a city and we hope to reinforce that over time. If you have one tattoo but not the other, we can fix that easily because this is an OOC change; you'll get the other tattoo added.

The problem isn't with someone lacking both, it's with someone only having one by choice in order to signify being born in the Gol but not a citizen of Tuluk. In the past, this was an in-between step if you like, between citizenship and being an outsider. That's what's now being removed.

Your offer to have tribals or others with only the band receive the caste tattoo won't make much sense, given those characters weren't meant to be citizens of the city, or in many cases, any city. You're essentially forcing citizenship on them, and future players of northern tribals, or a lack of recognition of their heritage. The alternative would be for them to request the removal of the band entirely since it no longer signifies what it used to, but that leaves them with nothing but an accent to prove they're born in the Gol and not southron barbarians. Not exactly an ideal for anyone in the middle of a war.

You said you're discussing how to deal with tribals of the Gol though, so I imagine we'll see how that pans out. I'd contest that if it involves the addition of new tattoos or other markings, the easiest would be to simply convert the documentation to chargen's old wording instead of the reverse, and mark anyone born in the Gol with a band. Such tribals of the Gol should theoretically still have the same access to the city that any citizen does, unless Muk's forgotten his tribal accent and the fact tribes built the very city. So from a coded stand-point the effect would be the same, regardless of whether you call it citizenship or heritage or birthright.

I'll let this rest though, as I think the topic's exhausted. If nothing else, you have some ideas to tinker with down the road if time and desire permits. I do appreciate your continuing to crowdsource the player base though, as it's an initiative long needed. Hopefully it won't discontinue.

The way you're describing "the Gol" leads me to think that this is part of the confusion.  I have a helpful post followup to explain the origins of the problem and why we are doing it this way.

[Nyr]

I'll go into more detail on why this was decided, citing some actual posts that led us to the conclusion that clarification in docs/in-game was needed.

Historic discussion of this sort of thing:

The tattoo for native residents of Gol Krathu can be on the throat, neck, or the shoulders.

The noble and commoner tattoos go on the hands (the six-pronged star for all commoners, and the House-colored seven-pronged star for nobles).

The slave tattoos always go on the left wrist.

Any other tattoos can go on any portion of the body, though there are customs for some organizations.

So the locations allowed are (technically) at least as old as..."New Tuluk."  "Head" used to be advocated as a location.  We removed that as it's a little ambiguous on placement and replaced that with "face."  We also have "about throat" just in case people feel the need to use that.

The colors:

note:

blue and purple -are- the colours of House Kadius.

just in case you didn't know.

Blue and purple are also in the caste tattoo of House Uaptal!

On Kadius' colors:

The swarthy commoners of Old Tuluk had similar tattoos, often done in web like patterns as I recall, and done in blue, purple and black.

House Kadius did get its start in Tuluk, so perhaps the chicken came first and House Kadius actually derived its colors from some of the standard colors in use in Tuluk at the time.  Just a wild theory though.

I do think that the use of purple and blue, along with black which was left out in the current version it seems, was probably widely used by the Tuluki populace in tattoos before Kadius ever picked their colors though.

The Kadian Commoner caste tattoo is a purple ring.
The Uaptal Commoner caste tattoo is a purple and blue ring.
The Gol Krathu tattoo is a blue and purple inked band.

Don't confuse house colors with caste markings; there may, as above, be important distinctions that get blurred by careless assumptions.

So having the same colors isn't a big deal because that is bound to happen.  The style in which the colors are laid out is more important than the colors themselves.

What about "Gol Krathu tattoo?"  Doesn't that mean the land from x to y location, and if I'm born there, shouldn't I have it?

This is confusing because of IC changes.  Let's go back.

Luir's Outpost is in the Gol Krathu, yeah.  PC's from that place get the same northern accent.

Luir's Outpost is not within the Gol Krathu..

The Gol Krathu is the lands WITHIN the Scaien Walls.

At least one player (that should definitely know, sorry for calling you out, Delirium) believed Gol Krathu to be within the Sciaen Walls before.  And this was quite true, per the docs:

Gol Krathu


This region of land lies at the southeastern border of the Grey Forest (q.v.). It is a somewhat arable land, and a multitude of grains and fruits are grown on its soil. It is bordered by barren flats to the east, the scrub plain on the south, a vast chasm on the north, and the edges of the Grey Forest on the west.

 Gol Krathu is the ancient site where twelve wandering tribes settled after the departure of the Dragon from the Known World. The warrior-mage Muk Utep subdued and conquered these tribes and forged the city-state of Tuluk, which now occupies at least half of the area of Gol Krathu. The sub-city of the the Sun King Utep now bears the same name as the land, being called Gol Krathu or the Ivory City interchangeably.

Relevant doc nowadays:
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Gol%20Krathu

So the city itself was called Gol Krathu, and the area around it was also called Gol Krathu, or the Ivory City.  Basically it was a claim of dominion.  Eventually even the whole area from the walls to the Span has ICly been referred to (by templars, PC and otherwise) as Gol Krathu.  This is an extension of that "dominion claim"; in other words, who possesses the power to actually challenge such a claim?  (Honestly...look at it one way and a templar could claim that Gol Krathu consists of the entirety of the Known World.  Zalanthas is Gol Krathu; Muk Utep merely hasn't conquered it yet because he's busy in a back room of the Pyramid.)

So all of that to say this:  if Gol Krathu was Tuluk and Tuluk was Gol Krathu...and a Gol Krathu tattoo was applied to those born within Tuluk...and a caste tattoo showed your caste...then the Gol Krathu tattoo means you're a citizen born in Tuluk or in lands claimed by Tuluk.  The fact that Gol Krathu has "expanded" in terminology and use in the past 7 or 8 years has confused this.

The other things we might need to add to the docs (very small snippets) would be:
what age tattoos are applied (probably as early as possible)
what actually are the qualifiers for citizenship (to prevent the "omg anchor babby" claims, it probably isn't great to have it based solely on location and instead have it based on parentage citizenship and so on and so forth)

Then we have a whole history lesson behind the tattoos if anyone cares, and if they don't, they just know that the tattoo means this and this other tattoo means that.

[Ouroboros]

I'll go into more detail on why this was decided, citing some actual posts that led us to the conclusion that clarification in docs/in-game was needed.

Most appreciated. You don't need to respond to the following comments unless you'd care to, but I did feel the need to respond on my end.

So the locations allowed are (technically) at least as old as..."New Tuluk."  "Head" used to be advocated as a location.  We removed that as it's a little ambiguous on placement and replaced that with "face."  We also have "about throat" just in case people feel the need to use that.

I'm aware of the changes of location the band has been expanded with, and what's been considered appropriate at times. What's contested isn't whether the current change to documentation is appropriate as per other documentation, but whether it's ideally suited. Locations have been added and removed in the past for this tattoo, which is why I felt suggesting it be simply kept to the neck here on would not only solve the various complications multiple locations have led to in the past, but would be well within the realm of OOC changes for simplification (just as similar OOC changes to the permitted locations were made in the past). In addition it's always felt odd that so many different locations were offered for this tattoo, when caste markings have always had very specific locations. In simple terms, it's confusing, and seems needlessly so.

So having the same colors isn't a big deal because that is bound to happen.  The style in which the colors are laid out is more important than the colors themselves.

Actually, this is the only overlapping instance of named color markings in the game, to my knowledge. It's not really bound to happen either, as there's more than plenty of colors to go around in various combinations and staff has always been good about ensuring overlaps don't happen. The closest example to an overlap you could point to besides this, would be green and black used by House Kasix being close to the jade and black of Allanak, but not only is that intentional, the fact a different named color (green vs jade) is used helps ensure there's no confusion to new players. The fact this band signifies citizenship in Tuluk and its colors differ from those of the city doesn't help either, regardless of what those colors are.

The GMH caste markings aren't that relevant as they only utilize a single color of each House's two, and aren't placed on the neck to begin with. So the fact Kadius has a purple ring for their caste doesn't mean much, when their House's colors are what they are. What further doesn't help is the fact Kadius uses purple and blue armbands to signify employees. From the view of a new player looking at a Tuluki Kadian, they'd think that either the tattoo represents Kadius (matching their armbands), or that the armsbands represent some city official (matching their tattoo). Again, in simple terms, it's confusing, and seems needlessly so.

So all of that to say this:  if Gol Krathu was Tuluk and Tuluk was Gol Krathu...and a Gol Krathu tattoo was applied to those born within Tuluk...and a caste tattoo showed your caste...then the Gol Krathu tattoo means you're a citizen born in Tuluk or in lands claimed by Tuluk.  The fact that Gol Krathu has "expanded" in terminology and use in the past 7 or 8 years has confused this.

You're perfectly right. The term has expanded to include lands outside the city wall over the years, most likely as a result of Gol Krathu being seen as the northern version of the southern Vrun Driath, which does cover a fair bit of land more than the Gol does by the quoted docs. If we're going to view the Gol as strictly the area inside the walls of Tuluk, then you're perfectly right in viewing anyone with the band as a citizen. That point though will have to be driven home, and "tribals of the Gol" as an idea, eradicated. They can then be tribals from whatever area they wish (The Grey, the Eastern Plains, etc) but they shouldn't be marked with a band or afforded citizenship unless actually born inside the city walls.

To be fair though, characters have lived and died (particularly the later), as tribals of the Gol that bore the band (but not the star) and weren't viewed as citizens or afforded the same privileges as someone with a caste marking. If you're telling me that this has happened for nearly a decade, both between staff and players, because someone messed up in his interpretation of the docs when coding chargen... Well, you can imagine that might sting a bit for lots of folks. Mistakes do happen, sure, but you can see how a small change in wording with such repercussions shouldn't be trivialized.

The other things we might need to add to the docs (very small snippets) would be:
what age tattoos are applied (probably as early as possible)
what actually are the qualifiers for citizenship (to prevent the "omg anchor babby" claims, it probably isn't great to have it based solely on location and instead have it based on parentage citizenship and so on and so forth)

Then we have a whole history lesson behind the tattoos if anyone cares, and if they don't, they just know that the tattoo means this and this other tattoo means that.

That sounds great, welcome and needed, and I'm sure we'll all looking forward to reading them. If anything can be learned from this discussion (and oddly enough another current one), it's that extensive (and more importantly, updated) documentation is crucial.

[evilcabbage]

Tuluki citizens love their tattoos.

If you're born within the Gol Krathu region, you get both tattoos by default. I myself don't see the issue, but that might be because I've never seen a reason to want to app in with one band and not the other.

However question:  Who gives you these tattoos ICly, and if you got one of them... why wouldn't you have the other?

[Riev]

However question:  Who gives you these tattoos ICly, and if you got one of them... why wouldn't you have the other?

ICly, ask your local servant of the Sun King. With the new docs, there is no reason to have one, and not the other. One marks you as a Tuluki Citizen, the other denotes your caste (be it slave, commoner, noble, or templar).

It used to be, you could be a "citizen of the northlands" (by improper interpretation) with just the purple band, but maybe not a "citizen of Tuluk". Now, they are one in the same. If you're a tribal, or not a citizen of Tuluk, you will NOT have either.

[evilcabbage]

I think you would know who gave you the tattoo, but I suspect your answer was actually the answer <_<?

[i love toilets]

Okay, nevermind, Riev answered my question.

[evilcabbage]

How would you even get the tattoos in the first place unless you were a citizen of the city?

[Lizzie]

Yeah this just seems a little redundant now.

Here's what I'm interpreting:

If you want to roll up a Tuluk-based character - of any kind.

1. Your character must have a caste tattoo on his hands, denoting which "type" of Tuluki he is. Commoner, slave, noble.
2. People who are -not- citizens of Tuluk, can -not- have that caste tattoo.

Therefore

3. Anyone with a caste tattoo on his hands, is by definition, a Tuluk citizen.

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

[Molten Heart]

How would you even get the tattoos in the first place unless you were a citizen of the city?

I would think that citizen born in the city would probably get these tattoos from either a templar or some kind of official tattoo artist sanctioned by the templarate, either shortly after they're born or sometime after.

For those that weren't born citizens that wanted to become citizens, they'd probably have to become a partisan to a templar and somehow earn citizenship through some means determined by their templar patron. Good luck, this isn't going to easy.

Edit to add:
I guess it's feasible to say that one could get fake tattoos but that's a whole can of worms that staff would probably rather avoid and just say "sorry" in order to avoid complications.  This isn't to say that staff wouldn't hook a brother up with fake tattoos via special application.

[Nyr]

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

Maybe there's a coded reason for one type of tattoo to be recognized by certain parts of the city.  Wink wink nudge nudge.

Though if you're playing in Tuluk, you already know the answer to this.

[slvrmoontiger]

If a new player didn't get the idea about needing both tattoos and only got one because of a completely OOC reason. How would that PC get fixed is that a "wish all" situation that would be remedied pretty quickly? Or do they have to follow through working with a Faithful IC to get it?

[Nyr]

If a new player didn't get the idea about needing both tattoos and only got one because of a completely OOC reason. How would that PC get fixed is that a "wish all" situation that would be remedied pretty quickly? Or do they have to follow through working with a Faithful IC to get it?

Either wish all or a request.  It is not an IC mistake; it is not an IC fix.

[Lizzie]

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

Maybe there's a coded reason for one type of tattoo to be recognized by certain parts of the city.  Wink wink nudge nudge.

Though if you're playing in Tuluk, you already know the answer to this.

Perhaps I misunderstood the "answer to this - nudge nudge" but it looked to me as though the caste tattoo, which is proof that you are a citizen _because_ it is proof that you have a Tuluk caste - would be sufficient. I mean - if you are a citizen you have to have that caste tattoo. Either the six-pronged star, or the seven-pronged star, or whatever that other thing is that slaves have on the left hand. Just the fact that you have one of those specific caste tattooes, is proof that you are a citizen. If you don't have one of those caste tattooes, then you are not a citizen.

Unless you're saying that it is possible to have the neckband tattoo, and NOT have a caste tattoo? Which would indicate - that there's no change at all, and I'm not understanding why there's even a thread since that was how it was until you posted the thread?

>Lizzeh is confuzzled.

[Nyr]

I'm saying this:

There is one citizenship tattoo.

There are (or were) at least 15 slave caste tattoos, either hexagons or triangles or moons.
There is also one commoner caste tattoo, the six-pronged star.
There are seven noble caste tattoos (variations on color).
There are (were) two templar caste tattoos.

It is easier to target one type of tattoo (the "Gol Krathu tattoo")
that might be in 5 different locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen"

than it is to target 25 different tattoos (caste, etc)
that might be in several possible locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen".

We're considering the effects of implementation beyond what PCs are affected; we are considering all NPCs and all future PCs as well. 

[slvrmoontiger]

I have a question regarding the changes that this affects, but am afraid to post here in case its too IC. I'm also afraid if I post something in as a question it might take a while to get a response. Any better ways to do it? Its not a complete emergency so "wish all" isn't really a good idea either.

[boog]

Send in a question request! They only take at most a couple days.

Clan Related   Question/Request   8   3.34 days

[Nyr]

If you have a question that is too IC for the GDB, feel free to put in a request.  I'll handle it as soon as I can.

[evilcabbage]

I'm saying this:

There is one citizenship tattoo.

There are (or were) at least 15 slave caste tattoos, either hexagons or triangles or moons.
There is also one commoner caste tattoo, the six-pronged star.
There are seven noble caste tattoos (variations on color).
There are (were) two templar caste tattoos.

It is easier to target one type of tattoo (the "Gol Krathu tattoo")
that might be in 5 different locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen"

than it is to target 25 different tattoos (caste, etc)
that might be in several possible locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen".

We're considering the effects of implementation beyond what PCs are affected; we are considering all NPCs and all future PCs as well. 

What Nyr is saying is that the neckband denotes you are a citizen, period. The six-pronged star is a Commoners tattoo, with the Neckband, that says that "I am a citizen, AND a commoner, who lives in Tuluk". Because Tuluki citizens LOVE their tattoos, remember? They fucking LOVE tattoos.

Hence, there are a ton of different tattoos. Soldiers check people for tattoos all the time to make sure a motherfucker isn't a slave trying to escape the city. That's what the six-pronged star represents. You're not just some common slave, you're actually a common-born citizen with (a couple) rights.

[Molten Heart]

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

Maybe there's a coded reason for one type of tattoo to be recognized by certain parts of the city.  Wink wink nudge nudge.

Though if you're playing in Tuluk, you already know the answer to this.

Perhaps I misunderstood the "answer to this - nudge nudge" but it looked to me as though the caste tattoo, which is proof that you are a citizen _because_ it is proof that you have a Tuluk caste - would be sufficient. I mean - if you are a citizen you have to have that caste tattoo. Either the six-pronged star, or the seven-pronged star, or whatever that other thing is that slaves have on the left hand. Just the fact that you have one of those specific caste tattooes, is proof that you are a citizen. If you don't have one of those caste tattooes, then you are not a citizen.

Unless you're saying that it is possible to have the neckband tattoo, and NOT have a caste tattoo? Which would indicate - that there's no change at all, and I'm not understanding why there's even a thread since that was how it was until you posted the thread?

>Lizzeh is confuzzled.

I think he's saying it's for simplicity's sake.  Neckband tattoo=citizen  Hand tattoos=type of citizen (consider that the hand tattoo is different for nobles and slaves, changing depending on the house)

So no it isn't needed if one doesn't mind more complexity, and it's also there for coded reasons.  I'm thinking "Disnelyland lifetime pass of awesomeness" but Tuluk doesn't have any rides that I know of (yet) so I just don't know.  Just don't call it the "Magick Kingdom".

[evilcabbage]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

[Lizzie]

Ooohkay...I think it's sinking in now. Thanks Nyr for turning the explanation around and reciting it backward for me. It actually does help

[Lizzie]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

Actually no it isn't that simple, which is why I didn't "get it."

If it were that simple, then "type of citizen" would mean "citizen" by default, and thus negate the need for any other "citizen" notation.

[evilcabbage]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

Actually no it isn't that simple, which is why I didn't "get it."

If it were that simple, then "type of citizen" would mean "citizen" by default, and thus negate the need for any other "citizen" notation.

I meant in the generic citizen sense of "this guy lives in the city as a slave, or a commoner, or a noble, or a what have you".

[Lizzie]

I don't want to seem like I'm jumping all over Nyr's GDB erection right now, I just want to try to help explain that it really is as simple as Neckband: Citizen. Hand tattoo: Type of citizen.

There are coded things in place. Other cities (Allanak) don't have awesome tattoos like Tuluk does that DENOTE certain important things. Tattoos are a point of pride for Tuluki citizens: Many of them have stories attached to them, and those stories are important to the people of that city.

Actually no it isn't that simple, which is why I didn't "get it."

If it were that simple, then "type of citizen" would mean "citizen" by default, and thus negate the need for any other "citizen" notation.

I meant in the generic citizen sense of "this guy lives in the city as a slave, or a commoner, or a noble, or a what have you".

In order to be a slave, commoner, or citizen of Tuluk, you must BE A CITIZEN. ICly - this is important. OOCly - it is not. OOCly, it's a matter of code, which Nyr has already explained, and Molten Heart has also helped me wade through.

What you are explaining is the IC situation, which really doesn't have anything to do with the changes. What your explaining, is actually confusing the issue, not helping it, because the issue is a code-issue, not an IC issue.

[Molten Heart]

In order to be a slave, commoner, or citizen of Tuluk, you must BE A CITIZEN.

I would argue that one wouldn't HAVE to be a citizen to be a slave, BUT they will certainly need a tattoo if they want to participate in coded Tuluki only type activities.

[Eurynomos]

D:

[Delirium]

Honestly, I would strongly support having the band tattoo always be on the neck, just as the stars are always on the hands.

Easier to target codewise, and just makes sense IC.

[Ouroboros]

For Lizzie and anyone else lost in the sea of posts so far:

The band is being used because it's easier to target via code and has little to do with thematic reasons. Yes, in practical terms, it's now redundant. But it's staying in use because it's easier to have code check for one object than several. Especially given how frequently Ginka will be forced to check for these tattoos now. So they're staying.

As others have pointed out, the same logic dictates it's a heck of a lot simpler if this band was kept to the neck location only, both in terms of code as well as needless complexity. It would even permit canned emotes on Ginka's end regarding the checking of such tattoos since they'd be in one place always. No one seems to have an issue with these being kept to the neck only, and those who've posted on the matter seem to be requesting it. Of all the improvements suggested so far, this is the simplest and most practical one. Nyr doesn't seem keen on this however and/or is mulling it over quietly. Forecast on the band being simplified to the neck location here on? Cloudy at best.

The colors of the band can be confusing as several have stated, have long-since lost their meaning, and would likely make more sense if changed to red and white in order to reflect the colors of the city a citizen is part of. They won't be changed at this point however. And since this would have been an ideal time to change them along with the rest of the tattoo-based changes, I don't see staff getting involved in changing them down the road either. It's a minor issue, and sits under a microscope due to the topic in question. Once this is past, it'll be far too minor an issue to even consider devoting time to. We'll be living with this, as we have so far.

The Gol is defined as the area within Tuluk's walls. Northern tribals from here on shouldn't be inked with either the citizenship (band) or caste (hand) tattoos, unless they were born inside the city and/or become citizens later in their lives. There may be further changes/updates to how tribals will be dealt with, pending a staff-internal discussion taking place currently. Stay posted.

Beyond that, we can look forward to the documentation of tattoos being expanded soon with more information about their history and applications. Personal note to staff? This would be a good place to justify why the citizenship tattoo colors don't actually match the city's colors, for future generations of players. Perhaps some history on the choice of colors can be dug up and assimilated, or something made up entirely from scratch. Whatever link to Kadius could also be hinted at in that same doc, to answer the mystery.

That about recaps things, I think.

[James de Monet]

Geez you guys. I don't see the fact that the band tattoo may be redundant as being all that weird.

Look at RL soldiers. They wear a flag on their sleeve to let you know they're American (or what-have-you). They also wear a tape that says "U.S. Army" to let you know they're in a certain branch. Is it redundant? Yes. But they still do it. The flag is easier to identify from a distance, just like a colored band on the neck would be easier to see from a distance than to tell what that thing on their hand is (especially if the person is turned away from you).

Soldiers also wear a rank patch. Could it be considered to make the flag doubly redundant? Kind of, yes. But the Army assumes (correctly) that other organizations might want to steal their rank markings. Just like a six pointed star might be appropriated by another Zalanthan organization. But a rank patch and a tape means U.S. Army Lieutenant just like a six pointed star and a band means Tuluki commoner.

Is this really so hard to accept?

[Nyr]

Of all the improvements suggested so far, this is the simplest and most practical one. Nyr doesn't seem keen on this however and/or is mulling it over quietly.

I started out in that camp for exactly those reasons.  I changed my mind after a discussion with a staff member about some RP possibilities on it.

Since it

a) has been possible for at least 10 years to put it in multiple places, and
b) isn't cramping anyone's RP to keep it that way, and
c) is actually something that can provide some options to flesh out PC RP for backstories, and
d) is only really bothersome in a "well that could be simpler" sort of way, and
e) is a fraction of one particular recent change in Tuluk that (by itself) is also a fraction of the totality of changes in Tuluk we've done (dissolving both Orders, rewriting Tuluki templarate documentation, working out new templarate uniforms in conjunction with the fashion documentation, executing and historically retconning the Hlum IC) or are planning to do in the near future (shadow artist implementation soon, and more besides that hasn't been hinted at), and
f) is (so far?) a half-hearted debate over the availability of a few tattoo locations for one tattoo...which seems a little laughable to us compared to all of the extensive stuff done in point E, and
g) is already implemented this way right now, therefore it'd actually take more work to un-implement it at this point than it would be to just leave it the way it is, then

yeah...I mean...I'd maybe give up on that dream of it just being one tattoo location...it's really not that important in the grand scheme of things, this is over and done. 

[Ouroboros]

Geez you guys. I don't see the fact that the band tattoo may be redundant as being all that weird. ... Is this really so hard to accept?

Not at all. It can be very easily justified in a million ways, with very little thought. It just doesn't make it any less redundant. The only reason its redundancy even blipped on anyone's radar is the fact before this change it wasn't redundant. It actually served a purpose when inked by itself. Given this redundancy surfaced now as a result of this change, it only seems logical that it would be pointed out and questioned on whether it has a need to exist at all. Apparently it does, for coded reasons, and I for one am perfectly happy with that. It might not serve an IC purpose, but at least it serves an OOC one.

Of course I could have thrown oil to the fire by pointing out the band tattoo could have been removed entirely and the actual citizenship code which does exist used in it's place. It could be just as easily applied to a character in chargen as a tattoo can be, and would solve the issue of the band's visibility entirely. PC's could look at someone's hands for proof of citizenship, seeing as every caste member is a citizen, and Ginka could check against a PC's citizenship status without the hassle of a PC having to remove and replace clothing every time, um... Ginka would need to check, for reasons best found out IC. But that would have opened a whole other can of worms in the discussion, so best keep a lid on it, eh?

I started out in that camp for exactly those reasons.  I changed my mind after a discussion with a staff member about some RP possibilities on it.

Whew, at least we're not crazy for suggesting it then! It helps when you share things like that, and you're right in your reasoning. It's certainly easier to just leave it be than to try and change it, even in an effort to simplify it. That tends to be the reason many problematic situations remain in RL as well, costs more to fix them than to let them be. Either way, we'll live. The reasons this band needs to exist are bound to cause a lot more turmoil than it's placement anyway, but it was good to at least discuss it through.

Edit: Typos.

[Jherlen]

Here's a good reason why Tuluki's might have the band on the neck even if tattoos are also on the hands:

Hands can get dirty. They can get burned, bloodied, scraped up, mangled, bitten, or even chopped off. I'd say the hands of a lower-caste Tuluki may not always be in great shape.

The neck, though... well, if too much abuse is applied to that, the question of whether or not the corpse was a citizen usually isn't all that important anyway.

I don't always make apologies for Muk, but when I do, it's usually a pretty lame one.

[Twilight]

Its actually the RP possbilities of fake tattoos that excite me in terms of RP opportunities.  Southern spies, but also folks who get tattoos to spite Tuluk, like an out of the way tattooist that changes your six prong to a seven prong (with a custom description describing this), or gives you a northern templar caste tattoo, or approximation thereof.  Of course, one would think that would be as good a way as a gem to get yourself dead in the North...

I don't see the big deal about one or two tattoos.  It could be three, it could be five.  It could be on your ears (okay, that would be kind of cool in general, and moreso with earless exiles, but I digress) and left pinky.  Doesn't matter, doesn't really need to make sense.  Culture sometimes just isn't sensible.  Perhaps the whole reason the tattoos exist was that Muk foresaw the current IC situation, and started the entire tradition from the beginning to benefit now.

I do wonder how he did that as a "warrior-mage" rather than a "redacted".

[evilcabbage]

Its actually the RP possbilities of fake tattoos that excite me in terms of RP opportunities.  Southern spies, but also folks who get tattoos to spite Tuluk, like an out of the way tattooist that changes your six prong to a seven prong (with a custom description describing this), or gives you a northern templar caste tattoo, or approximation thereof.  Of course, one would think that would be as good a way as a gem to get yourself dead in the North...

I don't see the big deal about one or two tattoos.  It could be three, it could be five.  It could be on your ears (okay, that would be kind of cool in general, and moreso with earless exiles, but I digress) and left pinky.  Doesn't matter, doesn't really need to make sense.  Culture sometimes just isn't sensible.  Perhaps the whole reason the tattoos exist was that Muk foresaw the current IC situation, and started the entire tradition from the beginning to benefit now.

I do wonder how he did that as a "warrior-mage" rather than a "redacted".

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

[Nyr]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers.

It's actually not well-publicized in documentation.  Just in staff-created stories that may or may not be exactly accurate, meant to reveal some things in a fun way.

[Twilight]

Its actually the RP possbilities of fake tattoos that excite me in terms of RP opportunities.  Southern spies, but also folks who get tattoos to spite Tuluk, like an out of the way tattooist that changes your six prong to a seven prong (with a custom description describing this), or gives you a northern templar caste tattoo, or approximation thereof.  Of course, one would think that would be as good a way as a gem to get yourself dead in the North...

I don't see the big deal about one or two tattoos.  It could be three, it could be five.  It could be on your ears (okay, that would be kind of cool in general, and moreso with earless exiles, but I digress) and left pinky.  Doesn't matter, doesn't really need to make sense.  Culture sometimes just isn't sensible.  Perhaps the whole reason the tattoos exist was that Muk foresaw the current IC situation, and started the entire tradition from the beginning to benefit now.

I do wonder how he did that as a "warrior-mage" rather than a "redacted".

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

You, sir, need a lesson in snarkiness.

I'm fairly sure the only way I have ever seen him described in official docs is as a "warrior-mage" if it is referenced at all, non-official GDB stories and IC events notwithstanding.

[slvrmoontiger]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

Umm power to see the future and psionic powers don't mean the same thing? Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future or has foreknowledge of future events doesn't mean they can read minds or figure stuff out psionically. Don't see where you are getting these two things are connected.

[Desertman]

Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future

.....

I would love to know your RL point of reference for this.

[evilcabbage]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

Umm power to see the future and psionic powers don't mean the same thing? Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future or has foreknowledge of future events doesn't mean they can read minds or figure stuff out psionically. Don't see where you are getting these two things are connected.

Please reread the entire thing you just quoted where Muk Utep released a blast of psionic energy and then a big rush of mutants and shit charged out and attacked the Mantis invaders during their occupation of Tuluk.

[evilcabbage]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers.

It's actually not well-publicized in documentation.  Just in staff-created stories that may or may not be exactly accurate, meant to reveal some things in a fun way.

... Er... well... it was well publicized on the GDB in stories...

[Nyr]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

Umm power to see the future and psionic powers don't mean the same thing? Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future or has foreknowledge of future events doesn't mean they can read minds or figure stuff out psionically. Don't see where you are getting these two things are connected.

Please reread the entire thing you just quoted where Muk Utep released a blast of psionic energy and then a big rush of mutants and shit charged out and attacked the Mantis invaders during their occupation of Tuluk.

There's nothing that says Muk Utep did that, and you're derailing this thread anyway.

[manonfire]

Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future

.....

I would love to know your RL point of reference for this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWyHiV3l3MA

[Molten Heart]

Muk Utep can do whatever he wants, ask anyone in Tuluk.

[slvrmoontiger]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

Umm power to see the future and psionic powers don't mean the same thing? Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future or has foreknowledge of future events doesn't mean they can read minds or figure stuff out psionically. Don't see where you are getting these two things are connected.

Please reread the entire thing you just quoted where Muk Utep released a blast of psionic energy and then a big rush of mutants and shit charged out and attacked the Mantis invaders during their occupation of Tuluk.

Oh right, you were there I presume so you know this is fact and not just stories passed down over time? Remember stories have a habit of becoming quite distorted over time. Try playing the game telephone a couple times and you'll see how things can get distorted.

[Molten Heart]

It is WELL PUBLICIZED in documentation and stories that were visible on the GDB (and I think still are) that Muk can see the future, that he -has- psionic powers. I mean, during the WHOLE THING, there's a story on the arm website about a PSIONIC BLAST OF ENERGY erupting out of the pyramid before the defenders charge out to kill the Mantis invaders. So. Warrior-mage? I think not.

Umm power to see the future and psionic powers don't mean the same thing? Even in RL just because someone can "see" the future or has foreknowledge of future events doesn't mean they can read minds or figure stuff out psionically. Don't see where you are getting these two things are connected.

Please reread the entire thing you just quoted where Muk Utep released a blast of psionic energy and then a big rush of mutants and shit charged out and attacked the Mantis invaders during their occupation of Tuluk.

Oh right, you were there I presume so you know this is fact and not just stories passed down over time? Remember stories have a habit of becoming quite distorted over time. Try playing the game telephone a couple times and you'll see how things can get distorted.

I think this might be what evilcabbage is talking about.

[i love toilets]

What if everyone born after a particular year ends simply doesn't get inked with the band?

I approve of this mostly because I'm tired of people rping looking at my neck to see if I have the tattoo, due to an OOC-based convenience in which players usually decide to put it on their pcs' necks.

More tattoos, specific to Tuluki-ish things like glory in war or something would be neat too.

Like a particular tattoo you can only get if you fought against Allanaki forces, or if you were part of a force that killed an abomination.

[slvrmoontiger]

What if everyone born after a particular year ends simply doesn't get inked with the band?

I approve of this mostly because I'm tired of people rping looking at my neck to see if I have the tattoo, due to an OOC-based convenience in which players usually decide to put it on their pcs' necks.

More tattoos, specific to Tuluki-ish things like glory in war or something would be neat too.

Like a particular tattoo you can only get if you fought against Allanaki forces, or if you were part of a force that killed an abomination.

No, this would make things -really- confusing.

[Nyr]

What if everyone born after a particular year ends simply doesn't get inked with the band?

What purpose would this serve? 

Is this anything new to cover, or is it the same argument about how the tattoo is redundant in an IC sense because the mere presence of caste tattoos indicates citizenship?  If the former, please explain.  If the latter, please see the previous response to this issue in this thread, encapsulated here:  a tattoo denoting citizenship but not caste suits coded purposes for staff.

I approve of this mostly because I'm tired of people rping looking at my neck to see if I have the tattoo, due to an OOC-based convenience in which players usually decide to put it on their pcs' necks.

You may want to get used to people looking to see if you have the citizenship tattoo.

[i love toilets]

a tattoo denoting citizenship but not caste suits coded purposes for staff.

If staff wants it to remain, because OMG TULUKIS LOOOOVE THEIR TATTOOS, I can live with that.

I approve of this mostly because I'm tired of people rping looking at my neck to see if I have the tattoo, due to an OOC-based convenience in which players usually decide to put it on their pcs' necks.

You may want to get used to people looking to see if you have the citizenship tattoo.

It doesn't happen that often, but seriously--- a few people do actually l me (eyes going to his neck) when checking for the tattoo, in a way in which it is obvious from the scroll that, because most Tuluki pcs have put it on their neck specifically so they can hide it when outside of Tuluk, they also expect mine to be on my neck. Thankfully, it doesn't happen that often.

[Nyr]

a tattoo denoting citizenship but not caste suits coded purposes for staff.

If staff wants it to remain, because OMG TULUKIS LOOOOVE THEIR TATTOOS, I can live with that.

We want it to remain because a tattoo denoting citizenship but not caste suits coded purposes for us.  (And as a side note, it's really not hurting anyone to have a tattoo that ICly is somewhat redundant in one respect.)

I approve of this mostly because I'm tired of people rping looking at my neck to see if I have the tattoo, due to an OOC-based convenience in which players usually decide to put it on their pcs' necks.

You may want to get used to people looking to see if you have the citizenship tattoo.

It doesn't happen that often, but seriously--- a few people do actually l me (eyes going to his neck) when checking for the tattoo, in a way in which it is obvious from the scroll that, because most Tuluki pcs have put it on their neck specifically so they can hide it when outside of Tuluk, they also expect mine to be on my neck. Thankfully, it doesn't happen that often.

Again, I'd let it slide.  You're assuming quite a bit about players there.

[Case]

The thing about long held traditions is they must serve a coded purpose until becoming redundant by fiat, at which point they must stop, lest people adhere to the whole point of of tradition - doing something because other people did it or be singled out.

I like 2 tattoos. Shit looks awesome.

[Molten Heart]

I think the inked band is fitting.  I couldn't think of anything better to represent the repressive stranglehold that the Sun King and his servants have on the people than to have a symbol of their power tattooed around their throats like a collar.


I'm looking at you Southern Templar rolecall.

[Lizzie]

I think the inked band is fitting.  I couldn't think of anything better to represent the repressive stranglehold that the Sun King and his servants have on the people than to have a symbol of their power tattooed around their throats like a collar.


I'm looking at you Southern Templar rolecall.

I have no problem with having a band. ICly, I think it's redundant, OOCly I realize there's a coded necessity. The only thing I don't "like" about it is the color. It clashes with SO many outfits...

Thankfully, most of my characters don't care if their own colors coordinate or match. If I thought it'd be an issue and in conflict with a character concept, I'd do one of these things:

1. roll up someone who loves purple and blue for their outfits.

2. app a Kadian family member

3. play anything -other- than a Tuluk citizen.

[Barsook]

Now I have the urge to app for a Kadian family member.