So about those Tuluki tattoos...

[Barsook]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

I think that was the reason behind that but it doesn't make sense.  Sure, Kadius may have a large say in the city but they don't own the city.  I think a red and white band makes more sense, if the tattoo has to stay.

Also if that IS the case and Kadius had ANYTHING to do with the liberation they would be very hard pressed to remain in a certain other city much like another sadly overstepping the boundaries of GMH neutrality have had to suffer in the aftermath. Even mute reason to not have those colors.

Too bad this a "find out IC" thing, but still, wouldn't leave to some good roleplaying and plots?

The change to the tattoo starting room is now live.  If your character happens to be a tribal "from Gol Krathu" and you never got your commoner caste tattoo, then please put in a request and we can get your commoner caste tattoo added!

Thank you!

[manipura]

What sort of request should this be filed as?  Character related description change maybe?  Or just a general game related question request?  Something else?

[Barsook]

From the help files:

Freil's Rest
(Regions of Tuluk)

After the destruction of Tuluk in the 19th Age, the Northlands were in shambles. Cagey Kadian merchants managed to keep hold on their resources, and worked slowly on rebuilding, mostly around the estate which had once belonged to Medichi of Kadius. The village served as home for many of the refugees of Tuluk, providing them with some shelter and protection from the incursions of Black Moon raiders. With time, this village came to be known as Freil's Rest.

The village became the center of civilization for the Gol Krathu under the rule of the conquering Allanaki forces, until the Liberation in 1516 by the allied Tuluki forces. Now what was once Freil's Rest is nestled within the newborn city-state of New Tuluk, serving as the city's merchant district, although still often referred to as Freil's.

I guess I'm wrong, there is no reference of the band sharing the colors of the House.  Though can it be taken that way?

[Ouroboros]

I tossed this up as a courtesy looking for problems with it before we went with it in-game with the change to that tattoo room.  The stuff you're responding with isn't a problem with it--it's you wanting it to be something else entirely.  Sorry, but we're going to disagree on this.

Any thoughts or concerns before this goes live?

You asked for thoughts or concerns. We shared. Pleasure doing business.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Heh. Knock it off.

[Nyr]

I tossed this up as a courtesy looking for problems with it before we went with it in-game with the change to that tattoo room.  The stuff you're responding with isn't a problem with it--it's you wanting it to be something else entirely.  Sorry, but we're going to disagree on this.

Any thoughts or concerns before this goes live?

You asked for thoughts or concerns. We shared. Pleasure doing business.

I probably should have made this more clear.

This isn't similar to the shadow artist system, where we are putting in something completely new that is an IC change.  We wanted feedback and detailed amounts of it, hence the fact that the thread there went almost 20 pages or so.  We've even made changes to that system and I expect that will go in soon; some might be pleasantly surprised with what we've done based on feedback!

In this case?  This is a very small OOC change that we're going with whether players like it or not.  We need one tattoo that works for the sake of the changes we're doing in this city-state.  We reviewed the docs and the docs already back this up.  We're simply bringing the game to where the docs are and making it less confusing for new players that might not get it, and also making it simpler for those already in-game.

What I was looking to do here was to clarify questions like this:

Does this mean we're no longer going to be seeing tribals born in the Gol Krathu (but not Tuluk) region with the neckband?

get constructive feedback that we can use to improve the wording:

I would only change the wording slightly:

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you have this tattoo.

to

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you must get this tattoo.

I understand the phrasing of the first way is supposed to mean "a typical Tuluki citizen would have this tattoo", but the "you have" phrasing can also seem like "you already have this tattoo codedly". The description of the six-pronged star should also be changed at the end in a similar way just to be consistent.

or even suggestions like this, which are great and requires more coding/consideration (and like I mentioned, we're looking at this kind of option tentatively):

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

rather than feedback that you think the whole thing is redundant, we should scrap it, we should retcon the tattoo itself, and you don't like people tattooing their bands on multiple locations even though they already have been and even though we've already coded things to react to that.  You're the only one providing that kind of feedback, so yeah, you're getting a little singled out.  We're not doing that.

So anyway, yes, thank you for your feedback, but that's not what we're going to do here.  It's a 10 minute change that we wanted to give a bit of notice on so people could ask questions, not a massive system overhaul.

[Ouroboros]

This is a very small OOC change that we're going with whether players like it or not.

It's a small OOC change to wording that has significant IC ramifications to anyone playing a character born in the Gol and lacking (by choice) citizenship. I fully understand this was a misinterpretation of the documentation on staff's part, and that as a fix it's minor. I don't feel that it's right to trivialize the effect it will have though, by saying it's simply a small change, will happen regardless what's said on it, and should have been that way to begin with. Yes, it should have been. But it wasn't for years, and players were functioning under a false pretense.

rather than feedback that you think the whole thing is redundant, we should scrap it, we should retcon the tattoo itself, and you don't like people tattooing their bands on multiple locations even though they already have been and even though we've already coded things to react to that.

Sorry, but the fact my feedback wasn't what you were looking for doesn't mean it wasn't feedback.

I do think it's redundant as it stands, yes, due to the change you're performing. It wasn't before, it is now. I didn't leave it at that though, I offered feedback on how it could be used in a manner that wasn't redundant, instead of just leaving it as is or scraping it altogether. You'd rather tie the new system to this one tattoo however, and that's fine. You explained the reasons for this and they make sense, at least from a convenience stand-point. That doesn't mean what you're planning is ideal for players though, and feedback on that should be welcome.

I do also think the band tattoo doesn't belong in multiple location, yes. I feel it should be standardized just as the hand tattoo is, so that if nothing else folks know where to look for it and because a band makes more sense on the neck thematically. That change would have no effect on the code you're implementing, any more than the hand tattoos being in one location would. If anything it would make it easier to target in code I imagine. Having it in multiple locations offers nothing additional to the change you're implementing, than having it on one does. Any given PC will either have it visible, or uncover it when required, regardless of its location and much as they will their hand tattoos. I also think that's relevant feedback when the topic of discussion is exactly that tattoo.

And lastly, yes, the colors are confusing. Not just to me. Would changing them be a significant improvement? No. Would it be an improvement at all? Yes. Especially when you and the rest of staff are investing what I imagine is an insane amount of time right now to revamp the city into a simpler and better version of it. If you'd like us to simply sit and the sidelines and silently watch as you go about it, that's fine. But you've made an effort to get feedback from players so far, and we would be remiss if we didn't point out even little issues that could be easily fixed.

You're the only one providing that kind of feedback, so yeah, you're getting a little singled out.  We're not doing that.

The fact I was the first to point out the issues I did doesn't mean I was alone in my opinion. You can clearly see that from the thread I imagine. I don't mind being singled out in the least however, so long as my feedback is heard and considered. Mostly because I invest my time in offering it and common courtesy dictates that's returned. You don't have to agree with me however, all I ask is that you try to keep an open mind when you're looking for feedback because nine-out-of-ten what you hear isn't going to be what you had in mind.

So anyway, yes, thank you for your feedback, but that's not what we're going to do here.  It's a 10 minute change that we wanted to give a bit of notice on so people could ask questions, not a massive system overhaul.

Limiting the location to the neck would take no more effort than the time it took me to write this sentence, since all that it would require is stating in chargen that it goes on the neck from here on. You wouldn't even need to retroactively change locations for players or NPC's, it could simply by an IC change in administration that states here on citizens are to be inked on the neck only. Changing the colors could be done in about 30 minutes of work, plus a reboot. Scraping it conceptually and keeping it for non-citizens of the Gol would take zero time to do, and from what you've said you're already investing time in discussing how to treat such tribals. It's not a massive system overhaul, they're minor changes that would improve things beyond what you were planning to do already. Our experience won't be made or broken over them though, no.

We're simply bringing the game to where the docs are and making it less confusing for new players that might not get it, and also making it simpler for those already in-game.

And that's what my feedback was aimed towards.

[Nyr]

This is a very small OOC change that we're going with whether players like it or not.

It's a small OOC change to wording that has significant IC ramifications to anyone playing a character born in the Gol and lacking (by choice) citizenship. I fully understand this was a misinterpretation of the documentation on staff's part, and that as a fix it's minor. I don't feel that it's right to trivialize the effect it will have though, by saying it's simply a small change, will happen regardless what's said on it, and should have been that way to begin with. Yes, it should have been. But it wasn't for years, and players were functioning under a false pretense.

If you lacked citizenship by choice--meaning you didn't have either tattoo at all--I'm afraid that's a choice made with repercussions that should be felt IC.  Arguably, they should have been felt already in the past IC, but we're fixing that.  If this is jarring to the player experience, it's unfortunate, but these are times of war.  It's not supposed to be easy to be a non-citizen in a city and we hope to reinforce that over time.

If you have one tattoo but not the other, we can fix that easily because this is an OOC change; you'll get the other tattoo added.

Sorry, but the fact my feedback wasn't what you were looking for doesn't mean it wasn't feedback.

I do think it's redundant as it stands, yes, due to the change you're performing. It wasn't before, it is now. I didn't leave it at that though, I offered feedback on how it could be used in a manner that wasn't redundant, instead of just leaving it as is or scraping it altogether. You'd rather tie the new system to this one tattoo however, and that's fine. You explained the reasons for this and they make sense, at least from a convenience stand-point. That doesn't mean what you're planning is ideal for players though, and feedback on that should be welcome.

I do also think the band tattoo doesn't belong in multiple location, yes. I feel it should be standardized just as the hand tattoo is, so that if nothing else folks know where to look for it and because a band makes more sense on the neck thematically. That change would have no effect on the code you're implementing, any more than the hand tattoos being in one location would. If anything it would make it easier to target in code I imagine. Having it in multiple locations offers nothing additional to the change you're implementing, than having it on one does. Any given PC will either have it visible, or uncover it when required, regardless of its location and much as they will their hand tattoos. I also think that's relevant feedback when the topic of discussion is exactly that tattoo.

And lastly, yes, the colors are confusing. Not just to me. Would changing them be a significant improvement? No. Would it be an improvement at all? Yes. Especially when you and the rest of staff are investing what I imagine is an insane amount of time right now to revamp the city into a simpler and better version of it. If you'd like us to simply sit and the sidelines and silently watch as you go about it, that's fine. But you've made an effort to get feedback from players so far, and we would be remiss if we didn't point out even little issues that could be easily fixed.

The fact I was the first to point out the issues I did doesn't mean I was alone in my opinion. You can clearly see that from the thread I imagine. I don't mind being singled out in the least however, so long as my feedback is heard and considered. Mostly because I invest my time in offering it and common courtesy dictates that's returned. You don't have to agree with me however, all I ask is that you try to keep an open mind when you're looking for feedback because nine-out-of-ten what you hear isn't going to be what you had in mind.

Fair enough.  I clarified what in particular I was looking for and why you going beyond that was not exactly what we were looking for...but I clarified already that this isn't really a negotiable change, so you really don't need to reiterate your position.  I understand you want it to be entirely different.  Unfortunately, we disagree.  Good luck either way. 

Limiting the location to the neck would take no more effort than the time it took me to write this sentence, since all that it would require is stating in chargen that it goes on the neck from here on. You wouldn't even need to retroactively change locations for players or NPC's, it could simply by an IC change in administration that states here on citizens are to be inked on the neck only. Changing the colors could be done in about 30 minutes of work, plus a reboot. Scraping it conceptually and keeping it for non-citizens of the Gol would take zero time to do, and from what you've said you're already investing time in discussing how to treat such tribals. It's not a massive system overhaul, they're minor changes that would improve things beyond what you were planning to do already. Our experience won't be made or broken over them though, no.

It's pretty moot since we're not doing any of what you're suggesting we should do, but I'd contend that changing documentation takes more than 0 time to do...I get what you're saying, you think this would be easy to do, and you're mostly right.  We just disagree on needing it.

We're simply bringing the game to where the docs are and making it less confusing for new players that might not get it, and also making it simpler for those already in-game.

And that's what my feedback was aimed towards.

Okay.  Well, we disagree.  Yes, it might make things less confusing, but then it takes it along a route we don't want to go down for Tuluk and the Northlands, so it gets shot down there.  No, we disagree that this would make it simpler for those already in-game except in the case of the color-scheme, where perhaps you have a point.  I'll find out why they're that color.  Not really interested in changing it though.  Thanks for your feedback.

[Jherlen]

Personally I'm all for automatically slapping the band on a PC's neck and the star on a PC's hands in the code, if they point at Tuluk. The documentation changes look good, but I think they're still too easy to misinterpret, get confused by, or ignore, especially for a new player.

If nothing else, maybe just change it so the band tattoo always goes on neck, and then change the room desc to just read "If you are a Tuluki commoner citizen, type buy 1 neck and buy 2 hands here".

[Ouroboros]

If you lacked citizenship by choice--meaning you didn't have either tattoo at all--I'm afraid that's a choice made with repercussions that should be felt IC.  Arguably, they should have been felt already in the past IC, but we're fixing that.  If this is jarring to the player experience, it's unfortunate, but these are times of war.  It's not supposed to be easy to be a non-citizen in a city and we hope to reinforce that over time. If you have one tattoo but not the other, we can fix that easily because this is an OOC change; you'll get the other tattoo added.

The problem isn't with someone lacking both, it's with someone only having one by choice in order to signify being born in the Gol but not a citizen of Tuluk. In the past, this was an in-between step if you like, between citizenship and being an outsider. That's what's now being removed.

Your offer to have tribals or others with only the band receive the caste tattoo won't make much sense, given those characters weren't meant to be citizens of the city, or in many cases, any city. You're essentially forcing citizenship on them, and future players of northern tribals, or a lack of recognition of their heritage. The alternative would be for them to request the removal of the band entirely since it no longer signifies what it used to, but that leaves them with nothing but an accent to prove they're born in the Gol and not southron barbarians. Not exactly an ideal for anyone in the middle of a war.

You said you're discussing how to deal with tribals of the Gol though, so I imagine we'll see how that pans out. I'd contest that if it involves the addition of new tattoos or other markings, the easiest would be to simply convert the documentation to chargen's old wording instead of the reverse, and mark anyone born in the Gol with a band. Such tribals of the Gol should theoretically still have the same access to the city that any citizen does, unless Muk's forgotten his tribal accent and the fact tribes built the very city. So from a coded stand-point the effect would be the same, regardless of whether you call it citizenship or heritage or birthright.

I'll let this rest though, as I think the topic's exhausted. If nothing else, you have some ideas to tinker with down the road if time and desire permits. I do appreciate your continuing to crowdsource the player base though, as it's an initiative long needed. Hopefully it won't discontinue.

[Nyr]

If you lacked citizenship by choice--meaning you didn't have either tattoo at all--I'm afraid that's a choice made with repercussions that should be felt IC.  Arguably, they should have been felt already in the past IC, but we're fixing that.  If this is jarring to the player experience, it's unfortunate, but these are times of war.  It's not supposed to be easy to be a non-citizen in a city and we hope to reinforce that over time. If you have one tattoo but not the other, we can fix that easily because this is an OOC change; you'll get the other tattoo added.

The problem isn't with someone lacking both, it's with someone only having one by choice in order to signify being born in the Gol but not a citizen of Tuluk. In the past, this was an in-between step if you like, between citizenship and being an outsider. That's what's now being removed.

Your offer to have tribals or others with only the band receive the caste tattoo won't make much sense, given those characters weren't meant to be citizens of the city, or in many cases, any city. You're essentially forcing citizenship on them, and future players of northern tribals, or a lack of recognition of their heritage. The alternative would be for them to request the removal of the band entirely since it no longer signifies what it used to, but that leaves them with nothing but an accent to prove they're born in the Gol and not southron barbarians. Not exactly an ideal for anyone in the middle of a war.

You said you're discussing how to deal with tribals of the Gol though, so I imagine we'll see how that pans out. I'd contest that if it involves the addition of new tattoos or other markings, the easiest would be to simply convert the documentation to chargen's old wording instead of the reverse, and mark anyone born in the Gol with a band. Such tribals of the Gol should theoretically still have the same access to the city that any citizen does, unless Muk's forgotten his tribal accent and the fact tribes built the very city. So from a coded stand-point the effect would be the same, regardless of whether you call it citizenship or heritage or birthright.

I'll let this rest though, as I think the topic's exhausted. If nothing else, you have some ideas to tinker with down the road if time and desire permits. I do appreciate your continuing to crowdsource the player base though, as it's an initiative long needed. Hopefully it won't discontinue.

The way you're describing "the Gol" leads me to think that this is part of the confusion.  I have a helpful post followup to explain the origins of the problem and why we are doing it this way.

[Nyr]

I'll go into more detail on why this was decided, citing some actual posts that led us to the conclusion that clarification in docs/in-game was needed.

Historic discussion of this sort of thing:

The tattoo for native residents of Gol Krathu can be on the throat, neck, or the shoulders.

The noble and commoner tattoos go on the hands (the six-pronged star for all commoners, and the House-colored seven-pronged star for nobles).

The slave tattoos always go on the left wrist.

Any other tattoos can go on any portion of the body, though there are customs for some organizations.

So the locations allowed are (technically) at least as old as..."New Tuluk."  "Head" used to be advocated as a location.  We removed that as it's a little ambiguous on placement and replaced that with "face."  We also have "about throat" just in case people feel the need to use that.

The colors:

note:

blue and purple -are- the colours of House Kadius.

just in case you didn't know.

Blue and purple are also in the caste tattoo of House Uaptal!

On Kadius' colors:

The swarthy commoners of Old Tuluk had similar tattoos, often done in web like patterns as I recall, and done in blue, purple and black.

House Kadius did get its start in Tuluk, so perhaps the chicken came first and House Kadius actually derived its colors from some of the standard colors in use in Tuluk at the time.  Just a wild theory though.

I do think that the use of purple and blue, along with black which was left out in the current version it seems, was probably widely used by the Tuluki populace in tattoos before Kadius ever picked their colors though.

The Kadian Commoner caste tattoo is a purple ring.
The Uaptal Commoner caste tattoo is a purple and blue ring.
The Gol Krathu tattoo is a blue and purple inked band.

Don't confuse house colors with caste markings; there may, as above, be important distinctions that get blurred by careless assumptions.

So having the same colors isn't a big deal because that is bound to happen.  The style in which the colors are laid out is more important than the colors themselves.

What about "Gol Krathu tattoo?"  Doesn't that mean the land from x to y location, and if I'm born there, shouldn't I have it?

This is confusing because of IC changes.  Let's go back.

Luir's Outpost is in the Gol Krathu, yeah.  PC's from that place get the same northern accent.

Luir's Outpost is not within the Gol Krathu..

The Gol Krathu is the lands WITHIN the Scaien Walls.

At least one player (that should definitely know, sorry for calling you out, Delirium) believed Gol Krathu to be within the Sciaen Walls before.  And this was quite true, per the docs:

Gol Krathu


This region of land lies at the southeastern border of the Grey Forest (q.v.). It is a somewhat arable land, and a multitude of grains and fruits are grown on its soil. It is bordered by barren flats to the east, the scrub plain on the south, a vast chasm on the north, and the edges of the Grey Forest on the west.

 Gol Krathu is the ancient site where twelve wandering tribes settled after the departure of the Dragon from the Known World. The warrior-mage Muk Utep subdued and conquered these tribes and forged the city-state of Tuluk, which now occupies at least half of the area of Gol Krathu. The sub-city of the the Sun King Utep now bears the same name as the land, being called Gol Krathu or the Ivory City interchangeably.

Relevant doc nowadays:
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Gol%20Krathu

So the city itself was called Gol Krathu, and the area around it was also called Gol Krathu, or the Ivory City.  Basically it was a claim of dominion.  Eventually even the whole area from the walls to the Span has ICly been referred to (by templars, PC and otherwise) as Gol Krathu.  This is an extension of that "dominion claim"; in other words, who possesses the power to actually challenge such a claim?  (Honestly...look at it one way and a templar could claim that Gol Krathu consists of the entirety of the Known World.  Zalanthas is Gol Krathu; Muk Utep merely hasn't conquered it yet because he's busy in a back room of the Pyramid.)

So all of that to say this:  if Gol Krathu was Tuluk and Tuluk was Gol Krathu...and a Gol Krathu tattoo was applied to those born within Tuluk...and a caste tattoo showed your caste...then the Gol Krathu tattoo means you're a citizen born in Tuluk or in lands claimed by Tuluk.  The fact that Gol Krathu has "expanded" in terminology and use in the past 7 or 8 years has confused this.

The other things we might need to add to the docs (very small snippets) would be:
what age tattoos are applied (probably as early as possible)
what actually are the qualifiers for citizenship (to prevent the "omg anchor babby" claims, it probably isn't great to have it based solely on location and instead have it based on parentage citizenship and so on and so forth)

Then we have a whole history lesson behind the tattoos if anyone cares, and if they don't, they just know that the tattoo means this and this other tattoo means that.

[Ouroboros]

I'll go into more detail on why this was decided, citing some actual posts that led us to the conclusion that clarification in docs/in-game was needed.

Most appreciated. You don't need to respond to the following comments unless you'd care to, but I did feel the need to respond on my end.

So the locations allowed are (technically) at least as old as..."New Tuluk."  "Head" used to be advocated as a location.  We removed that as it's a little ambiguous on placement and replaced that with "face."  We also have "about throat" just in case people feel the need to use that.

I'm aware of the changes of location the band has been expanded with, and what's been considered appropriate at times. What's contested isn't whether the current change to documentation is appropriate as per other documentation, but whether it's ideally suited. Locations have been added and removed in the past for this tattoo, which is why I felt suggesting it be simply kept to the neck here on would not only solve the various complications multiple locations have led to in the past, but would be well within the realm of OOC changes for simplification (just as similar OOC changes to the permitted locations were made in the past). In addition it's always felt odd that so many different locations were offered for this tattoo, when caste markings have always had very specific locations. In simple terms, it's confusing, and seems needlessly so.

So having the same colors isn't a big deal because that is bound to happen.  The style in which the colors are laid out is more important than the colors themselves.

Actually, this is the only overlapping instance of named color markings in the game, to my knowledge. It's not really bound to happen either, as there's more than plenty of colors to go around in various combinations and staff has always been good about ensuring overlaps don't happen. The closest example to an overlap you could point to besides this, would be green and black used by House Kasix being close to the jade and black of Allanak, but not only is that intentional, the fact a different named color (green vs jade) is used helps ensure there's no confusion to new players. The fact this band signifies citizenship in Tuluk and its colors differ from those of the city doesn't help either, regardless of what those colors are.

The GMH caste markings aren't that relevant as they only utilize a single color of each House's two, and aren't placed on the neck to begin with. So the fact Kadius has a purple ring for their caste doesn't mean much, when their House's colors are what they are. What further doesn't help is the fact Kadius uses purple and blue armbands to signify employees. From the view of a new player looking at a Tuluki Kadian, they'd think that either the tattoo represents Kadius (matching their armbands), or that the armsbands represent some city official (matching their tattoo). Again, in simple terms, it's confusing, and seems needlessly so.

So all of that to say this:  if Gol Krathu was Tuluk and Tuluk was Gol Krathu...and a Gol Krathu tattoo was applied to those born within Tuluk...and a caste tattoo showed your caste...then the Gol Krathu tattoo means you're a citizen born in Tuluk or in lands claimed by Tuluk.  The fact that Gol Krathu has "expanded" in terminology and use in the past 7 or 8 years has confused this.

You're perfectly right. The term has expanded to include lands outside the city wall over the years, most likely as a result of Gol Krathu being seen as the northern version of the southern Vrun Driath, which does cover a fair bit of land more than the Gol does by the quoted docs. If we're going to view the Gol as strictly the area inside the walls of Tuluk, then you're perfectly right in viewing anyone with the band as a citizen. That point though will have to be driven home, and "tribals of the Gol" as an idea, eradicated. They can then be tribals from whatever area they wish (The Grey, the Eastern Plains, etc) but they shouldn't be marked with a band or afforded citizenship unless actually born inside the city walls.

To be fair though, characters have lived and died (particularly the later), as tribals of the Gol that bore the band (but not the star) and weren't viewed as citizens or afforded the same privileges as someone with a caste marking. If you're telling me that this has happened for nearly a decade, both between staff and players, because someone messed up in his interpretation of the docs when coding chargen... Well, you can imagine that might sting a bit for lots of folks. Mistakes do happen, sure, but you can see how a small change in wording with such repercussions shouldn't be trivialized.

The other things we might need to add to the docs (very small snippets) would be:
what age tattoos are applied (probably as early as possible)
what actually are the qualifiers for citizenship (to prevent the "omg anchor babby" claims, it probably isn't great to have it based solely on location and instead have it based on parentage citizenship and so on and so forth)

Then we have a whole history lesson behind the tattoos if anyone cares, and if they don't, they just know that the tattoo means this and this other tattoo means that.

That sounds great, welcome and needed, and I'm sure we'll all looking forward to reading them. If anything can be learned from this discussion (and oddly enough another current one), it's that extensive (and more importantly, updated) documentation is crucial.

[evilcabbage]

Tuluki citizens love their tattoos.

If you're born within the Gol Krathu region, you get both tattoos by default. I myself don't see the issue, but that might be because I've never seen a reason to want to app in with one band and not the other.

However question:  Who gives you these tattoos ICly, and if you got one of them... why wouldn't you have the other?

[Riev]

However question:  Who gives you these tattoos ICly, and if you got one of them... why wouldn't you have the other?

ICly, ask your local servant of the Sun King. With the new docs, there is no reason to have one, and not the other. One marks you as a Tuluki Citizen, the other denotes your caste (be it slave, commoner, noble, or templar).

It used to be, you could be a "citizen of the northlands" (by improper interpretation) with just the purple band, but maybe not a "citizen of Tuluk". Now, they are one in the same. If you're a tribal, or not a citizen of Tuluk, you will NOT have either.

[evilcabbage]

I think you would know who gave you the tattoo, but I suspect your answer was actually the answer <_<?

[i love toilets]

Okay, nevermind, Riev answered my question.

[evilcabbage]

How would you even get the tattoos in the first place unless you were a citizen of the city?

[Lizzie]

Yeah this just seems a little redundant now.

Here's what I'm interpreting:

If you want to roll up a Tuluk-based character - of any kind.

1. Your character must have a caste tattoo on his hands, denoting which "type" of Tuluki he is. Commoner, slave, noble.
2. People who are -not- citizens of Tuluk, can -not- have that caste tattoo.

Therefore

3. Anyone with a caste tattoo on his hands, is by definition, a Tuluk citizen.

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

[Molten Heart]

How would you even get the tattoos in the first place unless you were a citizen of the city?

I would think that citizen born in the city would probably get these tattoos from either a templar or some kind of official tattoo artist sanctioned by the templarate, either shortly after they're born or sometime after.

For those that weren't born citizens that wanted to become citizens, they'd probably have to become a partisan to a templar and somehow earn citizenship through some means determined by their templar patron. Good luck, this isn't going to easy.

Edit to add:
I guess it's feasible to say that one could get fake tattoos but that's a whole can of worms that staff would probably rather avoid and just say "sorry" in order to avoid complications.  This isn't to say that staff wouldn't hook a brother up with fake tattoos via special application.

[Nyr]

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

Maybe there's a coded reason for one type of tattoo to be recognized by certain parts of the city.  Wink wink nudge nudge.

Though if you're playing in Tuluk, you already know the answer to this.

[slvrmoontiger]

If a new player didn't get the idea about needing both tattoos and only got one because of a completely OOC reason. How would that PC get fixed is that a "wish all" situation that would be remedied pretty quickly? Or do they have to follow through working with a Faithful IC to get it?

[Nyr]

If a new player didn't get the idea about needing both tattoos and only got one because of a completely OOC reason. How would that PC get fixed is that a "wish all" situation that would be remedied pretty quickly? Or do they have to follow through working with a Faithful IC to get it?

Either wish all or a request.  It is not an IC mistake; it is not an IC fix.

[Lizzie]

So why is there a need for the neckband at all?

Maybe there's a coded reason for one type of tattoo to be recognized by certain parts of the city.  Wink wink nudge nudge.

Though if you're playing in Tuluk, you already know the answer to this.

Perhaps I misunderstood the "answer to this - nudge nudge" but it looked to me as though the caste tattoo, which is proof that you are a citizen _because_ it is proof that you have a Tuluk caste - would be sufficient. I mean - if you are a citizen you have to have that caste tattoo. Either the six-pronged star, or the seven-pronged star, or whatever that other thing is that slaves have on the left hand. Just the fact that you have one of those specific caste tattooes, is proof that you are a citizen. If you don't have one of those caste tattooes, then you are not a citizen.

Unless you're saying that it is possible to have the neckband tattoo, and NOT have a caste tattoo? Which would indicate - that there's no change at all, and I'm not understanding why there's even a thread since that was how it was until you posted the thread?

>Lizzeh is confuzzled.

[Nyr]

I'm saying this:

There is one citizenship tattoo.

There are (or were) at least 15 slave caste tattoos, either hexagons or triangles or moons.
There is also one commoner caste tattoo, the six-pronged star.
There are seven noble caste tattoos (variations on color).
There are (were) two templar caste tattoos.

It is easier to target one type of tattoo (the "Gol Krathu tattoo")
that might be in 5 different locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen"

than it is to target 25 different tattoos (caste, etc)
that might be in several possible locations
with existing code and scripting that might need to know "this person is a citizen".

We're considering the effects of implementation beyond what PCs are affected; we are considering all NPCs and all future PCs as well.