So about those Tuluki tattoos...

[Nyr]

Tuluki Caste Tattoo Room

The NPC in this room allows you to set up your character with appropriate
Tuluk caste tattoos. People born in Tuluk to Tuluki citizens are usually
citizens, and all Tuluki citizens are marked with these tattoos. Skip this
step if your character was NOT born a Tuluki citizen. When you've finished,
you can go 'down' to enter the game.

NOTE: Once you leave, the ONLY way to get caste tattoos is to get them in-
game from a Templar. If your PC was always a Tuluki citizen, and should
have the appropriate tattoos, get them now. 

   Available tattoos:

   1 - a tattoo of a six-pronged star
   Worn on the hands, this signifies unaffiliated commoner status. All
   Tuluki citizens wear this tattoo. Example: "buy 1 hands"

   2 - a blue and purple inked band
   Worn on the neck, face or head, signifies residence in Gol Krathu.
   If you are from anywhere in the Northlands (except Luir's Outpost),
   you would wear this tattoo. Example: type "buy 2 neck"

Note that these tattoos ONLY go in these places, and you only need ONE
of each tattoo.  Tattoos are very important in Tuluki culture. For more
details, please see:  http://www.armageddon.org/general/tattoos/

This is going to be changed due to frequent confusion.  We think it makes more sense to do it this way, the docs back it up, we just need to be better at interpreting those docs and explaining them.

Tuluki Caste Tattoo Room

The NPC in this room allows you to set up your character with appropriate
Tuluki tattoos. People born in Tuluk to Tuluki citizens are usually
citizens, and all Tuluki citizens are marked with these tattoos. Skip this
step if your character was NOT born a Tuluki citizen. When you've finished,
you can go 'down' to enter the game.

NOTE: Once you leave, you can't get these kinds of tattoos in-game without serious IC work.
If your PC was always a Tuluki citizen, and should have the appropriate tattoos, get them now. 

   Available tattoos:

   1 - a blue and purple inked band
   Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
   status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
   you have this tattoo.
   Example: type "buy 1 neck"


   2 - a tattoo of a six-pronged star
   There are four castes in Tuluk:  slave, commoner, noble, and templar. 
   This tattoo (inked on the hands) signifies status as a member of the
   commoner caste. All Tuluki commoners would have this tattoo.
   Example: "buy 2 hands"


Note that these tattoos ONLY go in these places, and you only need ONE
of each tattoo.  Tattoos are very important in Tuluki culture. For more
details, please see:  http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Tuluki%20Caste%20Tattoos

I've also proposed some staff-side discussion on improving this process for Tulukis, but that will take some more time to come about.

Any thoughts or concerns before this goes live?

[bcw81]

Does this mean we're no longer going to be seeing tribals born in the Gol Krathu (but not Tuluk) region with the neckband?

[Cutthroat]

I would only change the wording slightly:

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you have this tattoo.

to

  1 - a blue and purple inked band
  Worn on the neck, face, head, or on either shoulder, this tattoo signifies
  status as a Tuluki citizen.  All Tulukis will have this tattoo.  If you're a Tuluki,
  you must get this tattoo.

I understand the phrasing of the first way is supposed to mean "a typical Tuluki citizen would have this tattoo", but the "you have" phrasing can also seem like "you already have this tattoo codedly". The description of the six-pronged star should also be changed at the end in a similar way just to be consistent.

[Nyr]

Does this mean we're no longer going to be seeing tribals born in the Gol Krathu (but not Tuluk) region with the neckband?

If you have that neckband, you're a citizen of Tuluk.
You can still be a tribal and be a citizen of Tuluk, but to be a citizen of Tuluk, you have to have that tattoo.
And if you're a citizen of Tuluk and you're not a slave, noble, or templar, you'd have that commoner tattoo.

It's a lot more simple.  Now, we're looking at ways to let folks be tribal and start in Tuluk and NOT be Tuluki citizens...but that's part of what I mentioned earlier for discussion on staff side.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

[Barsook]

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

+1

[Bushranger]

The best way to handle this would be to have two starting locations in Tuluk. Tribal Market, and Sanctuary.  If you point to the Northlander (tribal market), you don't get tattooed.  If you point to Tuluki Citizen (Sanctuary) you do.

+1

+1

Since Undertuluk was removed adding the Tribal Market as a second starting location in Tuluk makes sense. It will also allow the opportunity (probably somewhere down the line when staff get time) to add tribal starting shops to add some different flavour to the Northland Tribals.

[Nyr]

We were looking at that too...more details on that depending on what we can do codedly.

[slvrmoontiger]

If there were to be a starting place in the Tribal Market in Tuluk and another one in the Sanctuary then anyone that points to the Sanctuary in the Hall of Kings should automatically receive the required tattoo just a request asking where they want to have the red and blue band tattoo would be all that would be needed they'd input that and then be tattooed and be sent to the starter shops and then on they go.

[Ouroboros]

Given the change you're proposing, which is basically eliminating the band from those born in the Northlands but not inside Tuluk, it seems to me the band tattoo becomes entirely redundant. Before this proposed change, both citizenship and social caste was denoted by the hand star tattoo, while the band offered something the star didn't (a potential birthright outside citizenship) and thus had a reason to exist. Given every single Tuluki social caste has an according star tattoo for their hands, denoting them as citizens, what's the point of the band after this change, when all it implies is the same citizenship the hand tattoos offer?

I would humbly suggest the band tattoo is removed as a citizenship requirement and applied to whatever plans you have in store for non-citizens of Northland heritage. At least that way it'll serve a valid purpose. While you're at it, and in the mood for retcons, I might also suggest changing the colors to a combination that isn't shared by House Kadius. Mostly to avoid potential confusion from new players, but also just in the spirit of wrapping up loose ends in the North. If the meaning of the band can be changed, and is apparently set to change, I don't see why the colors can't be changed as well.

Redundancy aside, I'm also not crazy about increasing the number of locations the band can be inked on, as it starts to become frivolous. The band isn't worn for aesthetic reasons, it's law and tradition and neither of those are known for being flexible. Social caste tattoos are worn on the hands, not the "hands, or the wrists, or the forearms". Bands should be treated with the same, and by their description as a band, they should be inked only on the neck. It seems to me that this change is coming about simply because someone wanted to be able to wear their armor, keep their face pretty, and still showcase their "clearly" deep-set patriotism for all to see. Those players can simply not wear gloves if they're intent on showing their allegiance at all times, especially if this change goes through and makes the point of the band meaningless (since it won't offer any additional information than their star tattoo already does).

[Barsook]

might also suggest changing the colors to a combination that isn't shared by House Kadius.

I quite agree here and I was wondered why the share?

[Nyr]

Before this proposed change, both citizenship and social caste was denoted by the hand star tattoo, while the band offered something the star didn't (a potential birthright outside citizenship) and thus had a reason to exist. Given every single Tuluki social caste has an according star tattoo for their hands, denoting them as citizens, what's the point of the band after this change, when all it implies is the same citizenship the hand tattoos offer?

Every single Tuluki social caste does not have a star tattoo for their hands.
Slaves have a hexagon.
Commoners have a six-pronged star.
Nobles have a seven-pronged star.
Templars will have a sun tattoo.

I would humbly suggest the band tattoo is removed as a citizenship requirement and applied to whatever plans you have in store for non-citizens of Northland heritage. At least that way it'll serve a valid purpose.

Per the docs that were already there and have been there for years...this isn't being removed as a citizenship requirement.  It's being clarified properly for the first time.

While you're at it, and in the mood for retcons, I might also suggest changing the colors to a combination that isn't shared by House Kadius.

Tuluk was around first.  Kadius can go get its own colors.

Mostly to avoid potential confusion from new players, but also just in the spirit of wrapping up loose ends in the North. If the meaning of the band can be changed, and is apparently set to change, I don't see why the colors can't be changed as well.

This is not an IC retcon.  This was bad interpretation of the docs.

Redundancy aside, I'm also not crazy about increasing the number of locations the band can be inked on, as it starts to become frivolous. The band isn't worn for aesthetic reasons, it's law and tradition and neither of those are known for being flexible. Social caste tattoos are worn on the hands, not the "hands, or the wrists, or the forearms".

Caste tattoos are worn on the hands, yes.

Bands should be treated with the same, and by their description as a band, they should be inked only on the neck. It seems to me that this change is coming about simply because someone wanted to be able to wear their armor, keep their face pretty, and still showcase their "clearly" deep-set patriotism for all to see. Those players can simply not wear gloves if they're intent on showing their allegiance at all times, especially if this change goes through and makes the point of the band meaningless (since it won't offer any additional information than their star tattoo already does).

Not really.  It's coming about because we are implementing some code that needs tattoo visibility.

The band shows your citizenship.  Your caste tattoo shows your caste.  Citizens have access to certain things.  Members of certain castes will have access to other sorts of things.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd agree with having that band automatically tatted on the neck, and the caste star tatted on the hands. Then you could bypass choosing it at all and simply automatically apply it when the character points to Tuluki Citizen. Those pointing to Northlands wouldn't be tattooed.

[Barsook]

I'd agree with having that band automatically tatted on the neck, and the caste star tatted on the hands. Then you could bypass choosing it at all and simply automatically apply it when the character points to Tuluki Citizen. Those pointing to Northlands wouldn't be tattooed.

I think that would be the easier way.  Less confusion.

[Ouroboros]

Every single Tuluki social caste does not have a star tattoo for their hands.

Correct, but irrelevant to my point. That point being, every single Tuluki social caste has some specific tattoo for their hands. Which by itself implies citizenship, and makes the band redundant.

Per the docs that were already there and have been there for years...this isn't being removed as a citizenship requirement.  It's being clarified properly for the first time.

Fair enough. But the fact remains that due to this misconception, a certain type of background has existed in the game for years. Namely that of someone born outside Tuluk but within the Northlands, most of who were tribals. The fact that numerous characters over the years have inked themselves with the band but not the star supports this clearly, and until now, staff has supported the existence of these characters as well.

While I can appreciate that this redundancy has existed since the beginning and is just now being brought to light, it continues to be no less redundant from the moment the option the documentation discrepancy offered no longer exists.

Tuluk was around first.  Kadius can go get its own colors.

Kadius didn't though, and decided instead to steal the colors of the citizenship band their House started in. Probably for no other reason than to fashionably match their House clothing with their ink, knowing those silly Kadians. Kadius also isn't undergoing massive changes right now, all made in the spirit of improving the Northlands experience. And lastly, those colors make little sense in current times, when Tuluk's colors as a city are red and white.

This is not an IC retcon.  This was bad interpretation of the docs.

Given how many characters have lived and died wearing only the band while not being considered citizens of the city... I'd say this rather is an IC retcon. I get that it was a mistake in the docs, but when it's prevailed literally for years and entire plots and backgrounds have included it... It's become part of the IC fabric of the game.

Not really.  It's coming about because we are implementing some code that needs tattoo visibility.

Eh? That makes little sense, because every location can just be as easily covered up (and often is). Someone that needs to show their ink can simply remove whatever's covering it. By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function. The shoulder location for example doesn't even make sense for this purpose, since most of the time someone's wearing sleeved clothing that would hide that tattoo IC even if it doesn't in code due to being a separate wearloc.

Perhaps you can clarify this new code's needs a bit? Because it sounds like this is something that would be more appropriately dealt with by a new tattoo wearloc, than by offering numerous locations for a tattoo on the hopes that they won't be covered up in code for a piece of clothing, armor, or other object. A PC should have the option to simply remove an article of clothing and show their tattoo to whatever code's being added, not have to plan their gear and clothing around a tattoo being visible at all times.

The band shows your citizenship.  Your caste tattoo shows your caste.  Citizens have access to certain things.  Members of certain castes will have access to other sorts of things.

But every caste member is a citizen, which makes separate citizenship tattoos redundant. Whatever benefits a member of a certain caste might have, they still have the same added benefits every other citizen has. What I'm suggesting is to re-purpose the band tattoo in a way that isn't redundant, and ties back somewhat to what's being taken away by this "clarification" of the docs; the ability to showcase Northern birthright without citizenship.

I think we're past fearing retcons at this point, be they IC or OOC in nature, given all the changes the North has seen as of late. I can't see a reason why the band tattoo can't be retconned as well, to actually offer something useful to the game. Especially if you actually have plans on including Northern tribals and other non-citizens in some fashion. This band was how they identified themselves before this clarification, so it makes good sense to re-purpose it for their exclusive use.

[ShaLeah]

I never quite understood why the heck they even have a choice of where to put anything. Everyone should have them in the same place. Idiot proof.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Whether you are going to remove the band or not, Nyr, gotta agree with Ourob ... Org ... Obir ... whatever. Ouroboros. They are reduntant tats. I can understand not changing them, but I also understand changing them.

I also think they probably should reflect Tuluk's colors, as well.

I don't know about Arm, but in another Diku code I played with, it was possible to hide numerous objects per wear location. In fact, pretty sure this is possible in Arm, too, since closing a cloak hides your chestwear, weapons, and belt, and gloves hide ten rings and the tats on your hand. I'd consider fiddling with this if I were you, boss. That backpack revealing a tat thing has always bugged me.

[Wish]

Kinda agree about the band tattoo being redundant and a bit oddly colored- one problem though: every npc in Tuluk has one, so....yeah, that'd be a BITCH to change.

[James de Monet]

By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function.

This seems somewhat silly. If tattoos denote citizenship and you have a need to display that you're a citizen, don't cover them up. That seems like sense.

If the Sun King says the tattoos go on your neck and people want to be recognized as citizens, guess what? Kadius isn't going to be selling too many high collars in the Ivory. Because smart citizens care more about looking like good citizens than they do about a fancy choker. Fashion would almost certainly follow function in this regard (and in fact, would probably engender styles like silk jackets with lace collars, so the tattoos could be seen, etc).

[Molten Heart]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

The band also used to mean something different, it  indicated that a person was born in Gol Krathu (The area around Tuluk and not necessarily Tuluk itself).  Local tribals, hunters, lumberjacks, etc that associated with the city but weren't born in the city would be people that would have this tattoo and not the hand tattoo.

Also some people that wouldn't have this tattoo but would have the commoner hand tattoo would be someone that wasn't born there but came to Tuluk later in life.  This might mean they were a foreigner and earned their citizenship, or maybe they were a foreigner before they became a slave.  This was also the case with Hlum nobility, (at least in one exceptional case) but wait... what's Hlum nobility?  I think I might be imagining that last part. :-)

The idea is that each tattoo does mean something and that seems to be changing which is fine.  I thought it might help if posters knew the origins of the tattoos.

[Ouroboros]

The band also used to mean something different, it  indicated that a person was born in Gol Krathu.  <snip> The idea is that each tattoo does mean something and that seems to be changing which is fine.  I thought it might help if posters knew the origins of the tattoos.

Point is, the band meant something other than what it was intended to apparently, for many years now. From what Nyr has shared it was always supposed to mean citizenship, not birth, and that's why it's being "changed" now.

As far as the colors go... Tuluk did indeed come first as Nyr joked, so it's far likelier that Kadius took their colors from the band (given the House was founded there) than that Tuluk took their color from Kadius. Either way though... It's ancient history and in this point in time only serves to confuse. The colors have become meaningless in their association with Tuluk, whatever that association was originally intended to be. And my suggestion to change them follows in line with all the other streamlining changes Tuluk has recently undergone, to clarify and simplify things. Whatever association Kadius meant to draw from the tattoo not only is long forgotten, but to the few that would know it in the first place (Muk and a few historians), the gesture is remembered and loses nothing by Tuluk's citizenship tattoo actually reflecting that city's colors.

By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function.

This seems somewhat silly. If tattoos denote citizenship and you have a need to display that you're a citizen, don't cover them up. That seems like sense.

I couldn't agree more actually, you just missed my point. That being, that the tattoo should go in one place (the neck), and citizens should either be required to have it exposed, or required to expose it when asked to, or not required to expose it manually at all by having whatever code's being developed check for them or look for it in a new and always-visible location.

What I find silly myself is offering increasingly multiple choices about where that darn tattoo can be placed, just to seemingly accommodate it's coded visibility without it being covered by gear. It's a citizenship ink (at least as of now), it should go in one place only just like social caste inks do, in a formalized and traditional fashion.

Taking that further, I was trying to explain that due to it's redundancy, it's constant visibility not only shouldn't be a concern, but that it doesn't even need to exist. If we're going to keep it as a citizenship ink though, let it go only on the neck and be as hidden or visible as a PC chooses. Their citizenship is still outright stated by their hand tattoos, so whether the band is visible or not doesn't matter and it can thus be safely restricted to one location. Otherwise let's get rid of it entirely as a symbol of citizenship, change it's colors to something tribally appropriate (or leave them be), and let it simply signify what it has to players for years: Birth in the Gol Krathu, not citizenship of Tuluk. That was actually the only thing about the colors that seemed to make sense, the fact they denoted something outside of Tuluk itself and thus had reason not to reflect the city's official colors.

Kinda agree about the band tattoo being redundant and a bit oddly colored- one problem though: every npc in Tuluk has one, so....yeah, that'd be a BITCH to change.

Find & Replace. Save. Reboot. Party.

[Barsook]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

I think that was the reason behind that but it doesn't make sense.  Sure, Kadius may have a large say in the city but they don't own the city.  I think a red and white band makes more sense, if the tattoo has to stay.

[ShaLeah]

I believe the colors of the band are connected to Kadius who played a role in the rebellion and reconstruction of the city.  I could be wrong, but it seems like a big coincidence considering the history.

I think that was the reason behind that but it doesn't make sense.  Sure, Kadius may have a large say in the city but they don't own the city.  I think a red and white band makes more sense, if the tattoo has to stay.

Also if that IS the case and Kadius had ANYTHING to do with the liberation they would be very hard pressed to remain in a certain other city much like another sadly overstepping the boundaries of GMH neutrality have had to suffer in the aftermath. Even mute reason to not have those colors.

[Nyr]

Every single Tuluki social caste does not have a star tattoo for their hands.

Correct, but irrelevant to my point. That point being, every single Tuluki social caste has some specific tattoo for their hands. Which by itself implies citizenship, and makes the band redundant.

Ok, cool.  However, we aren't going to do that.  Thanks for your feedback, though.

Per the docs that were already there and have been there for years...this isn't being removed as a citizenship requirement.  It's being clarified properly for the first time.

Fair enough. But the fact remains that due to this misconception, a certain type of background has existed in the game for years. Namely that of someone born outside Tuluk but within the Northlands, most of who were tribals. The fact that numerous characters over the years have inked themselves with the band but not the star supports this clearly, and until now, staff has supported the existence of these characters as well.

While I can appreciate that this redundancy has existed since the beginning and is just now being brought to light, it continues to be no less redundant from the moment the option the documentation discrepancy offered no longer exists.

Cool.  Thank you for your feedback, but we aren't going to go with that.

Tuluk was around first.  Kadius can go get its own colors.

Kadius didn't though, and decided instead to steal the colors of the citizenship band their House started in. Probably for no other reason than to fashionably match their House clothing with their ink, knowing those silly Kadians. Kadius also isn't undergoing massive changes right now, all made in the spirit of improving the Northlands experience. And lastly, those colors make little sense in current times, when Tuluk's colors as a city are red and white.

Doesn't seem like a big deal.  Some clans are inevitably going to have color or style stuff that overlaps.  If we choose to retcon it or improve it in the future, we will.  For now, it's okay.

This is not an IC retcon.  This was bad interpretation of the docs.

Given how many characters have lived and died wearing only the band while not being considered citizens of the city... I'd say this rather is an IC retcon. I get that it was a mistake in the docs, but when it's prevailed literally for years and entire plots and backgrounds have included it... It's become part of the IC fabric of the game.

Okay, cool.  But we're rolling with it and it's not an IC retcon, it's an OOC retcon for making things make more sense.

Not really.  It's coming about because we are implementing some code that needs tattoo visibility.

Eh? That makes little sense, because every location can just be as easily covered up (and often is). Someone that needs to show their ink can simply remove whatever's covering it. By the same token, someone shouldn't have to refrain from wearing what they like, just so their tattoo is codedly visible for other code to function. The shoulder location for example doesn't even make sense for this purpose, since most of the time someone's wearing sleeved clothing that would hide that tattoo IC even if it doesn't in code due to being a separate wearloc.

I misspoke. We're implementing code that needs tattoos.  It's easier to assign it to this tattoo than to four types of caste tattoos that each can have over a dozen color variations.  We're rolling with this, sorry you disagree!

Perhaps you can clarify this new code's needs a bit? Because it sounds like this is something that would be more appropriately dealt with by a new tattoo wearloc, than by offering numerous locations for a tattoo on the hopes that they won't be covered up in code for a piece of clothing, armor, or other object. A PC should have the option to simply remove an article of clothing and show their tattoo to whatever code's being added, not have to plan their gear and clothing around a tattoo being visible at all times.

Find out IC.

The band shows your citizenship.  Your caste tattoo shows your caste.  Citizens have access to certain things.  Members of certain castes will have access to other sorts of things.

But every caste member is a citizen, which makes separate citizenship tattoos redundant. Whatever benefits a member of a certain caste might have, they still have the same added benefits every other citizen has. What I'm suggesting is to re-purpose the band tattoo in a way that isn't redundant, and ties back somewhat to what's being taken away by this "clarification" of the docs; the ability to showcase Northern birthright without citizenship.

I understand you believe it is redundant.  Maybe it is.  And we don't really care if it is or not at this point.  I tossed this up as a courtesy looking for problems with it before we went with it in-game with the change to that tattoo room.  The stuff you're responding with isn't a problem with it--it's you wanting it to be something else entirely.  Sorry, but we're going to disagree on this.

I think we're past fearing retcons at this point, be they IC or OOC in nature, given all the changes the North has seen as of late. I can't see a reason why the band tattoo can't be retconned as well, to actually offer something useful to the game. Especially if you actually have plans on including Northern tribals and other non-citizens in some fashion. This band was how they identified themselves before this clarification, so it makes good sense to re-purpose it for their exclusive use.

Nah.  We're not doing that.  Thanks for your feedback.

[Nyr]

The change to the tattoo starting room is now live.  If your character happens to be a tribal "from Gol Krathu" and you never got your commoner caste tattoo, then please put in a request and we can get your commoner caste tattoo added!