Male/Female Relations

[Lizzie]

I guess I just don't consider having male rulers "sexist," on an IC level. OOCly - sure. ICly - not at all, because it wasn't done intentionally to show male dominance. It was done because in real life (not to be confused with fantasy), males who write stories tend to select other males as their "big guns." Sure, it might be sexist of them to do this, but they're not going into the game and saying "boys rule girls drool." They're saying "we're guys, creating a guy-game, and so we will have guy leaders." I don't even really consider that sexist from an OOC point of view, but I'd allow that some people might.

It just really doesn't bother me in the slightest.

In addition as I have already said - there are clans that are ruled by females.

Lastly - if it bothers you enough - if you truly think it's sexist, and would like for it to change, or want to even challenge the point - well - enjoy the tired, old, haggardly, wrinkled, decrepit cliche: Be the change.

[Jherlen]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

[Kronibas]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

Pretty sure Sathis was a dude.  Aquila was female, though, and that player went on to contribute a great deal to this game.

[Omn]

Lastly - if it bothers you enough - if you truly think it's sexist, and would like for it to change, or want to even challenge the point - well - enjoy the tired, old, haggardly, wrinkled, decrepit cliche: Be the change.

Really, again, I don't care if it is what it is, it's a non-issue for me. The documentation of 'no sexism exists' isn't reflected coherently in the universe, in part because of players still using the same gender and relation stereotypes. There are female leaders in the real world, none of them at the top seats: a lot like Zalanthas. I'd say the majority of people are playing with the same understanding of gender disparity as they have in real life, fantasy settings, fiction, media, which makes sense. Does it fit documentation? No.

[LauraMars]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

Pretty sure Sathis was a dude.  Aquila was female, though, and that player went on to contribute a great deal to this game.

Yah, Sathis was a dude.

[Case]

I've seen, and played, strong leadery women. It happens.

[slvrmoontiger]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

Before the last HRPT the High Precentor was Jihaen so would have been a male.

[Lizzie]

Lastly - if it bothers you enough - if you truly think it's sexist, and would like for it to change, or want to even challenge the point - well - enjoy the tired, old, haggardly, wrinkled, decrepit cliche: Be the change.

Really, again, I don't care if it is what it is, it's a non-issue for me. The documentation of 'no sexism exists' isn't reflected coherently in the universe, in part because of players still using the same gender and relation stereotypes. There are female leaders in the real world, none of them at the top seats: a lot like Zalanthas. I'd say the majority of people are playing with the same understanding of gender disparity as they have in real life, fantasy settings, fiction, media, which makes sense. Does it fit documentation? No.

Comparing with the real world makes *zero* sense though. This is my big issue with trying to push "realism" on a fantasy game. In the real world, you don't have only two city-states, one accessible village, one distant tribal underground (literally) outpost, one central outpost, one tiny shop-based outpost that is supposed to be mythical but everyone knows about.

In the real world, you have hundreds of opportunities to be the leader of a country, because there are hundreds of countries. Those countries are male-led, because their culture revolves around male-dominated leadership. In some cultures, women would never *want* to be leaders, and would prefer to leave the responsibility to the men. In others, they are oppressed and not considered worthy. In yet others, they've tried, but were shot down by the voting populace. And in the UK, the leader is, and has been, the Queen, for several decades, and has been led by a Queen at some points prior to Liz's crowning. There's been a female Prime Minister in the UK, and there was a female Prime Minister of Canada.

Furthermore, there are *several* countries in the real world that are, or have been, ruled by women. Ecuador, Libya, Argentina, Ireland, Panama, Latvia, Finland, the Phillipines and Indonesia, to name just some.

In Zalanthas, there are no votes. There's no democracy, you can't impeach the local sorcerer-king. And there are only two sorcerer-kings, because there are only two countries. In Luir's Outpost, the leader is selected by the family that owns the outpost. I am pretty sure that the leader has at least once been female. In Blackwing, it is jointly run by an entire tribe. I'm not sure who is the leader of that tribe, but it's probably male, sure. In Cenyr, I have no idea if there even IS a ruler. It seems like it's probably led by consensus of the shopkeepers who run the shops. Red Storm Village - the Sandlord, who no one has ever seen, and therefore has no indication of its gender, or even if it's of some humanoid species. It could be a real live true-hermaphrodite Wyvern for all anyone knows, and therefore is both male and female.

Those are the only current possibilities of territorial leadership in Zalanthas. It isn't even somewhat remotely comparable to real life.

[i love toilets]

I want to go into the game and count the number of male v female human, non-mutant, mundane (all that leadership requirement) players. don't get me wrong, the placement of men and women on the leadership ladders in this game, once noticed, is kind of disturbing. But how much of that is controlled simply by the fact that male pcs significantly outnumber the female? (I'm serious! Someone tell us.)

[slvrmoontiger]

I want to go into the game and count the number of male v female human, non-mutant, mundane (all that leadership requirement) players. don't get me wrong, the placement of men and women on the leadership ladders in this game, once noticed, is kind of disturbing. But how much of that is controlled simply by the fact that male pcs significantly outnumber the female? (I'm serious! Someone tell us.)

I think that the number of male PCs versus the number of female PCs if greater only makes sense. From what I've seen and heard the number of male players is higher than the number of female players. And with the lack of sexism there really isn't a want for a male player to play a female PC unless they really like doing that type of thing.

[Case]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

[valeria]

I don't think the statistical composition of IG leaders says anything about whether men and women are equal in the game.  Are the two main City leaders dudes?  Yes.  Chances of that happening randomly?  25%.  As for the Sand Lord, if we're going to start going into small settlements, we'd need to survey the tribal groups, Cenyr, Luirs, etc to get an idea of the composition.

And there are a ton of female leader PCs in the game.

[slvrmoontiger]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

I have to agree with this at this point. This was talking about relationships not leadership roles... How do males and female work together or communicate or have fun together. Not who is in power... At least that's what I took the OP meaning to be.

[Case]

Regarding relationships - do what it takes to screw who you wanna screw. That's how Zalanthans court.

[Seeker]

I think the answer here is gonna be:  find out IC.  Which really means, "make it up yourselves."

My take is that the prime point of Armageddon's "equality of genders" thing is just to open up possibilities.  I suspect the reason there is not much guiding documentation on the whole relationship issue is mostly to prevent limiting those possibilities.

For players:
Make it up for your PCs, don't contradict the simple doc. guidelines
don't OOCly insist everyone play your way or that you are right

For your characters:
try to find someone(s) who wants to relates with your outlook
Enjoy/suffer

[TimTembo]

There have been female PCs at various points - not going to name names or time periods - that have basically run the gameworld. As in, shit doesn't happen without their knowing about it and say so.

They may not be parading around the streets as visible leaders but they are running the show.

[Omn]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

I'm really not sure where the strawman came from. This isn't a rally for equality, at least not on my part. Like I've said in nearly all of my posts, I don't care about whether there is equality or not in game. The gender of leadership PCs was used in comparison to RL leadership because I'm trying to make the point that:

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either.

And there are a lot of commonalities with RL and Zalanthas in terms of how people treat gender, gender stereotypes, and how they treat relationships. Is all gender disparity in the real world sexist? No. Do players bring their understanding of character development and psychology to the game first before having to figure out what a sexism-free world is like? Yes, the ones who pay attention to documentation do, and try to modify their behavior. Some people simply write characters with the same common roles they innately know from other fantasy stories. The damsel in distress, the strong warrior, the gentle aide, the roguish thief. Can these be degendered? Surely.

But writing that our notions of relationship and sexism IRL don't carry over into Zalanthas because documentation says they don't simply isn't true, at least from my experiences in play and by how volitile/dead horse these conversations seem to be here on the GDB.

[Case]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

I'm really not sure where the strawman came from. This isn't a rally for equality, at least not on my part. Like I've said in nearly all of my posts, I don't care about whether there is equality or not in game. The gender of leadership PCs was used in comparison to RL leadership because I'm trying to make the point that:

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either.

And there are a lot of commonalities with RL and Zalanthas in terms of how people treat gender, gender stereotypes, and how they treat relationships. Is all gender disparity in the real world sexist? No. Do players bring their understanding of character development and psychology to the game first before having to figure out what a sexism-free world is like? Yes, the ones who pay attention to documentation do, and try to modify their behavior. Some people simply write characters with the same common roles they innately know from other fantasy stories. The damsel in distress, the strong warrior, the gentle aide, the roguish thief. Can these be degendered? Surely.

But writing that our notions of relationship and sexism IRL don't carry over into Zalanthas because documentation says they don't simply isn't true, at least from my experiences in play and by how volitile/dead horse these conversations seem to be here on the GDB.

You lost me at strawman. I never made one - which amusingly means you made a strawman argument against me. I digress.

Your second paragraph is what I said but for some reason you decided to elaborate. So, cool?

To repeat myself, summarised:
I think it's silly to try and force sexual equality and removal of social gender roles upon people who actively live them (that's all of us!). We have to accept this unless staff enforce it to the level of specific rules.

[Refugee]

There's no glass ceiling for female PCs and that's all that matters.  Think about that.  THAT'S WHAT MATTERS.  

Females can achieve as much and make as much as males.  They can be combat leaders, staff, anything.  The game's fine.

What players do ingame is what players do.  PCs can be jerks.  Arrange some consequences for the jerks.

I've seen quite a few female leaders, anyway, PC and NPC alike, in combat and non-combat situations.

[Mad Max]

Well if RL is any indicator of the game, most females do run the show in some form or fashion, some more discretely than as others...     Behind every good man is a good woman.  May not be as political correct as it once was, but it still has a ring of truth to it.

I know of plenty of MMORPGS, where guys play as girls for two major reasons.  1.  When they ran around the game world for months if not years, they wanted to see the back side of a pretty polygon female character.  And 2. Most (I say most... a lot at least.) guys will want to out right help out a female character, or at the very least group with them.  Again see reason #1...  (There was a story in a PC gaming mag of a reviewer, purely by accident, picked a female character for I believe Everquest, realized his mistake but said screw it because he did not have to redo his character creation and started playing.  It had not been more than a few minutes to an hour before he was getting hit on, grouped with for hard to find areas and mobs and even getting tricked out gear, all because they thought he was a female behind the monitor.  A SGT of mine had done the same thing in Ultima Online, and he was getting mad loot and was like "wow, the players here are really nice!"  Then the "tells" started to come in and he was like "WTF!?"...    )  A 3rd reason could simply be that the game restricted certain races or job classes to a female only gender character.  Like FF Online had a female kitty race.  Another MMORPG has only certain classes a female can be and only certain classes a male can be and if you want the one not your real life gender, you swap in game.

But I like the idea of no sexism in the game.  As far as I know, none of the guilds or subguilds at least, are off limits to either sex.  But of course what is seen as on the surface, doesn't really mean that is how it is or in individual areas or how the player base plays it.  Again see #1...

[i love toilets]

I must have hit a sausagefest area in the last few months because I really don't remember the ratio being this bad for a while. It seems more common these days for there to be one or no chicks at the bar.

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players

male pcs significantly outnumber the female

I find it hilarious if I'm playing a girl, for a female pc to get catty and defense with mine because we're both supposedly women. Scary, sometimes, funny, you bet.

[LauraMars]

The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

-LoD

[Omn]

lol.

LauraMars, I think it's cool and fair that the game is intended to be equal opportunity, at least from an OOC standpoint. Thanks for sharing that.