Male/Female Relations

[Son of Valhalla]

Where's a good place to find how men and women act to each other usually?  I know women are just as tough as men in Arm

[Barzalene]

This will vary greatly based on the people involved. Try to stay true to the docs

[Wastrel]

It is a really good question the docs generally dont answer.

[Lizzie]

This will vary greatly based on the people involved. Try to stay true to the docs

The docs mostly say what sexism is NOT, in Armageddon. It doesn't really go into relationships, courtship, general treatment of males with females on an interpersonal level. In other words, the sociology of the genders is mostly absent from the docs, even something as simple as "it's okay to be chivalrous, however most characters won't be, because it's not valued in Zalanthas like it is in real life."

There's SO much emphasis on the fact that there's no sexism, and that sex among anything -other- than a male human and female human is or is not normal...so much nitpicking on the GDB about it too.

But what about just a normal human Tuluki male, and a human Tuluki female, who are attracted to each other? Is there a ritual of courtship like there is in real life? Is Allanaki "commoner human courtship" different than Tuluki courtship? Would a man offering to cook a meal for the woman he's attracted to be considered appropriate, or should the woman wonder if the man is trying to trap her to kill her? Most cultures in the world have such courtship rituals and in fact, every animal has some kind of ritual, even if it's just a sexual thing with no emotion involved. Peacock males stretch their wings to show off their feathers to the female in an attempt to get that female interested. Some male primates will bring a chunk of food to their intended female partner. Dogs sniff each other.

Sometimes it's exclusively a physical mating ritual, sometimes it's a combination of mating and "relationship-creating." Sometimes it's exclusively relationship creating with no sex. But in all walks of life, in all cultures, and in all animal species, there is -some- kind of courtship.

The OP is asking where to find information about courtship in Armageddon. I don't know the answer to it but saying "stick with the docs" isn't really very helpful.

[Qzzrbl]

It's very open-ended, and depends entirely on the character.

Can you cook a mean steak? And I mean with spices and everything-- make it special. Do the whole, "I just learned how to do this, you've -gotta- try it!"

Do it for her, and her only. It might net you some points.

Among humans in RL, and I'm sure among humanoids in Zalanthas, going out of your way to do nice stuff for someone else is often a good way to garner and/or show interest-- as will learning and getting good at stuff a potential mate likes. For instance, in Tuluk. Everyone's crazy about art and music, and it gets pretty deep. Find specifically a potential mate likes and run with it. In Allanak, feats of strength-- or just the ability not to starve to death with this whole famine (lol) thing going on might be more appreciated than elsewhere.

And everyone's different. Some monogamous. Some polygamist. Some just want sex, some just want another to buy them stuff, some want actual love, others might just want someone nice hanging off their arm.

And on Zalanthas, there is no sexism, it all of this can be expected of both parties, depending on either personality.

Largely, I've come to find there are many parallels from RL to Zalanthas. I've run into everything from romance to cutting Byn duty to get dirty in a side-alley and not speaking much in between.

Once you get a good feel of the cultures, you'll get an idea of courtship rituals.

[slvrmoontiger]

This is really good question and one I'd like some sort of information on as well.

I've had PCs that treat a lot of women primarily sexually. Not saying they have ever treated those woman as weaker just as sex objects. I've also had PCs that treated women as just buddies or pals much as they would treat men. And I've had PCs that interact with women on a case by case bases on how that woman acts or what they look like. I've kept to the documents and never had a PC treat a woman of the same race as inferior.

[RogueGunslinger]

There's no documentation on this. So your options are as far and wide as your imagination.

[Wastrel]

Personally I find the whole notion of no sexism absolutely ridiculous and not believable in the slightest. Its pretty easy to see its like that for game design reasons and to avoid blatant chauvinism prevading all forms of roleplay. Nobody wants to deal with that shit. However, if you really want to look at it deeply I think the natural consequence is that relationships would be much more casual, generally speaking. Maybe Ugg, the badass warrior dude of the wastes, would be less inclined to fret over and crush on Fugg, the badass warrior woman of the wastes. Ugg isn't able to conceptualize Fugg being physically weaker than him. Fugg is just like Ugg, only looks diferent and has different parts. Big whoop. No cultural baggage I guess. Aaaannnnyway.

Like people said you got a lot of wiggle room, its something that has been left open for player interpretation and creation. Left open intentionally.

[Mad Max]

  As others have stated, different real world cultures have different ways of doing things.  Some are traditional and some are just purely out for power.  In some cultures the females dance in brightly coloured dresses and or half naked with only feathers for the males, while in others the males dance around in brightly coloured outfits or half naked with feathers for the females. (As in to imitate the peacock as someone stated specifically or any number of other colourful birds.)  For others it is on equal terms and they just court one another.  Some others are males who marry females expecting a dowry from the bride's parents and when not properly given, murder their wives.  Others, generally older males, black mail parents into allowing them to marry their much younger daughters.  Or kids are set up practically from birth to marry each other, not so much as for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the two families involved.  While other males are tasked with kidnapping a woman, (Generally with best friends.) holding her hostage so to speak to marry and then the two families get on.  Some are fun traditions, others are downright awful ways of life and some are as simple as a caste system where one can not marry the other with out usually bringing shame not only to themselves, but to their family.

  There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of ways different cultures handle (Or I should say 'have' handled...) their courtships or even just how they interact with one another.  But you have to realize, this is 'Earth' and we are all 'Human'. (Regardless what we consider are race issues, it is more simply colour and background issues.)  Just imagine if we had different actual living beings on Earth; like Elves, Dwarves, etc.  That is a whole other ball park, not including different skin tones and backgrounds to each of those races and you could multiply astronomically the amount of different ways to date or have relations with.

  But it would be a good read to see how this game takes into account different races, castes and backgrounds.  Could a Templar from the North marry a Templar from the South.  If so, who would be in charge of the kids or would a suitable nanny be involved, perhaps a house slave?  Heck would a house slave be chosen to be the birth giver in the first place, relinquishing the woman Templar to have to worry about suspending her job duties for a couple of months?  Maybe she would forcefully terminate her pregnancy to serve her Lord if she was too young and got pregnant by mistake, as in not retired from service.  Are female Temps forced to retire at a certain age to entertain the idea of children...  Could a male Temp get a lower caste female or a female Temp a lower male with out any trouble?  Could a Temp willing be with a darker guild, say from Assassins or Thieves, etc., regardless how corrupt a Temp might be in the first place?  Does a Temp even need the approval of their Lord to marry or even date?

(Note, the questions are not so much for you guys to answer, unless you actually know, but questions just to get you thinking of the diverse possibilities.  And those questions above only had to deal with Temps from the North and South, not all the other backgrounds, traditions, rules, etc.)

  But as others have also said, just go with the flow.  Even with in their social castes and socities, people are different.  But I believe, even the most independent female would not shun bread for herself and starving babes.  I am not saying paying through commodities, but just trying to show a strong, caring, helpful male role, or maybe just simple kindness...  Or vise versa I suppose if a single father, with a starving child and a kind enough woman came along.  Maybe a Mul wants to be a father and obviously cannot, but he could marry into a family that has kids...

  On a side note for fantasy races regardless of which setting, Klingon females are considered equal in most regards to Klingon males and have practically the same duties, at least in the military sense, front line and center with a disruptor in one hand and a bat'leth in the other, even becoming captains.  (Although High Chancellor I am not sure of, at least not yet...)  And if the Klingon couple do not leave the bedroom, both with a few broken ribs, busted lip, black eyes and a concussion, there was not enough 'love' involved....  And some Klingon females would only be house wives, simply because that is the way to breed and raise children, otherwise the Empire would fall due to lack of new recruits readily available.  However, marrying or toying on the side with caste-less members is a big no go.

[Yummri]

Help Marriage

Marriage                                                            (Culture)

   Only nobles and merchant houses use the formal term
marriage for their contractual relationships.  Marriage on Zalanthas
has little to do with ritual and everything to do with gaining an
advantage. A formalized contract sets forth the terms of an exchange. 
These contracts usually cover the number of children the union is
required to produce, the house to whom these children will belong, and
the exchange of goods or favors as part of the deal. These contracts
are recorded by the templarate, and require the signatures of ranking
members of each house, the signatures of the individuals who will enter
into marriage and the signature of a templar. (In Allanak this will
usually be a templar from the city ministry.)

   Merchant houses also form formalized unions for much the same
reasons as the nobility. The contracts are often identical to a
noble marriage contract and they are also registered with the city state.

   Commoners taking mates is of no consequence or interest to the nobility or the templarate.

Notes:
      Given that Zalanthas is a place with broad attitudes towards
sexuality, it is common to see Zalanthans have multiple sex partners. 
While your character may be in a monogamous relationship with another
character, understand that as a commoner, this does not deserve (and
should not get) formalized recognition by the powers that be.  Your
character also should not expect anything for deciding to limit his or
her current sexual focus to one person.  Any commoner relationship is not formalized.  This means that there are no such things as inheritance
laws governing who gets your character's things if they die, nor are
there divorce laws concerning who gets which half of things if the couple splits up.  Zalanthan commoners are NOT highborn, and this is one area in which that should be very clear.

I don't know if that helps you a little more though, I don't have much experience with these things, but this topic was one I'd thought about myself.

[Omn]

Personally I find the whole notion of no sexism absolutely ridiculous and not believable in the slightest. Its pretty easy to see its like that for game design reasons and to avoid blatant chauvinism prevading all forms of roleplay.

To add to that, I think despite the documents, people still play their characters with real Earth world gender stereotypes and perform the same masculinites and femininities. I think it simply just doesn't feed into how people conduct relationships or write characters. I've seen no lack for people treating young female characters as one might expect in a patriarchy, and guess what; Zalanthas is a patriarchy.

Unless Muk Utep and Tek'tolnes are both secretly sporting vaginas.

[slvrmoontiger]

  As others have stated, different real world cultures have different ways of doing things.  Some are traditional and some are just purely out for power.  In some cultures the females dance in brightly coloured dresses and or half naked with only feathers for the males, while in others the males dance around in brightly coloured outfits or half naked with feathers for the females. (As in to imitate the peacock as someone stated specifically or any number of other colourful birds.)  For others it is on equal terms and they just court one another.  Some others are males who marry females expecting a dowry from the bride's parents and when not properly given, murder their wives.  Others, generally older males, black mail parents into allowing them to marry their much younger daughters.  Or kids are set up practically from birth to marry each other, not so much as for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the two families involved.  While other males are tasked with kidnapping a woman, (Generally with best friends.) holding her hostage so to speak to marry and then the two families get on.  Some are fun traditions, others are downright awful ways of life and some are as simple as a caste system where one can not marry the other with out usually bringing shame not only to themselves, but to their family.

  There are probably hundreds, if not thousands of ways different cultures handle (Or I should say 'have' handled...) their courtships or even just how they interact with one another.  But you have to realize, this is 'Earth' and we are all 'Human'. (Regardless what we consider are race issues, it is more simply colour and background issues.)  Just imagine if we had different actual living beings on Earth; like Elves, Dwarves, etc.  That is a whole other ball park, not including different skin tones and backgrounds to each of those races and you could multiply astronomically the amount of different ways to date or have relations with.

  But it would be a good read to see how this game takes into account different races, castes and backgrounds.  Could a Templar from the North marry a Templar from the South.  If so, who would be in charge of the kids or would a suitable nanny be involved, perhaps a house slave?  Heck would a house slave be chosen to be the birth giver in the first place, relinquishing the woman Templar to have to worry about suspending her job duties for a couple of months?  Maybe she would forcefully terminate her pregnancy to serve her Lord if she was too young and got pregnant by mistake, as in not retired from service.  Are female Temps forced to retire at a certain age to entertain the idea of children...  Could a male Temp get a lower caste female or a female Temp a lower male with out any trouble?  Could a Temp willing be with a darker guild, say from Assassins or Thieves, etc., regardless how corrupt a Temp might be in the first place?  Does a Temp even need the approval of their Lord to marry or even date?

(Note, the questions are not so much for you guys to answer, unless you actually know, but questions just to get you thinking of the diverse possibilities.  And those questions above only had to deal with Temps from the North and South, not all the other backgrounds, traditions, rules, etc.)

  But as others have also said, just go with the flow.  Even with in their social castes and socities, people are different.  But I believe, even the most independent female would not shun bread for herself and starving babes.  I am not saying paying through commodities, but just trying to show a strong, caring, helpful male role, or maybe just simple kindness...  Or vise versa I suppose if a single father, with a starving child and a kind enough woman came along.  Maybe a Mul wants to be a father and obviously cannot, but he could marry into a family that has kids...

  On a side note for fantasy races regardless of which setting, Klingon females are considered equal in most regards to Klingon males and have practically the same duties, at least in the military sense, front line and center with a disruptor in one hand and a bat'leth in the other, even becoming captains.  (Although High Chancellor I am not sure of, at least not yet...)  And if the Klingon couple do not leave the bedroom, both with a few broken ribs, busted lip, black eyes and a concussion, there was not enough 'love' involved....  And some Klingon females would only be house wives, simply because that is the way to breed and raise children, otherwise the Empire would fall due to lack of new recruits readily available.  However, marrying or toying on the side with caste-less members is a big no go.

I know right now it is COMPLETELY unacceptable for a templar from the north to marry one from the south and probably always has been. They are two TOTALLY different cultures and are mortal enemies of each other. Same goes for noble family members. Exception to this might be GMH, but I doubt it would be accepted by the government.

Mates - Again COMPLETELY unacceptable to take a mate of a different race. Both partners would be shunned by everyone for this (considered quite disgusting to breed outside your perspective race.

Nobles in the north are NOT allowed to have relations with commoners. This is acceptable in the south, not sure if marriage is acceptable in the south but sexual relations are acceptable between the caste levels.

[Mad Max]

Unless Muk Utep and Tek'tolnes are both secretly sporting vaginas.

I was wondering about the Sand Lord myself.

"Red Storm Village has old but strong stone walls and is heavily guarded by the Sand Lord, its mysterious, never-seen ruler, and his militia"

Just because you use the term 'Lord'/'him' doesn't mean it actually is a 'he'...  I am sure someone has seen the 'Lord', if one even exists, maybe just a puppet, etc.  But if the masses have not or even most of militia, who knows... Perhaps what 'she' lacks in 'length', more than makes up for it with her sword...

[Jherlen]

GMH family members can probably marry between cities on occasion. Especially since the "marriage" is probably more of a business deal than a permanent living arrangement, I can see a northern Kadian and a southern Salarri shacking up in Luir's for a month or two until the new startup is properly fertilized, then going back on their separate ways.

I don't believe nobles would ever marry commoners in the south, but nobles can take concubines/consorts/whatever you want to call them. In such situations the noble gets to sleep with whoever they want, and the commoner gets to sleep with whoever the noble wants.

As for the Sand Lord, I personally think Red Storm is just Tek's secret summer getaway retreat where he can still be a ruthless dictator without having to put up with all his whiny templars praying for him to grant them power and shit.

[Omn]

Just because you use the term 'Lord'/'him' doesn't mean it actually is a 'he'...  I am sure someone has seen the 'Lord', if one even exists, maybe just a puppet, etc.  But if the masses have not or even most of militia, who knows... Perhaps what 'she' lacks in 'length', more than makes up for it with her sword...

Here's the conundrum, though. If Zalanthas was free from sexism, why would she feel the need to lie to make up for anything? What would be the advantage of portraying yourself as male?

[evilcabbage]

The Sandlord, I believe, used to be somebody you would see in Red Storm. I don't know this for sure, however.

And it is also a he, I believe.

[Pale Horse]

Just because you use the term 'Lord'/'him' doesn't mean it actually is a 'he'...  I am sure someone has seen the 'Lord', if one even exists, maybe just a puppet, etc.  But if the masses have not or even most of militia, who knows... Perhaps what 'she' lacks in 'length', more than makes up for it with her sword...

Here's the conundrum, though. If Zalanthas was free from sexism, why would she feel the need to lie to make up for anything? What would be the advantage of portraying yourself as male?

Player convenience/hold over from yester-year (original arm).

One could argue that if there is no sexism on Zalanthas, there would be no titles to distinguish in between titles reserved for males and titles reserved for females.

My personal interpretation is that the sexes used to not be equal and that, in accordance with the Dark Sun influence on the game, Zalanthas used to be a pretty typical Tolkien-esque world until the Dragon's coming.  The resulting wasteland it brought about kick-started adaptation and survival of the fittest into overdrive and any species that could not produce individuals of either sex that were as strong independently as together, perished.  The lingering titles are evidence of the old Time of Kings, or something.

As for how males and females view one another in a "courting" manner or general social situations, I would assume it has more to do with who is deemed the "stronger" in the pairing or who brought the most advantage by hooking up/socializing.

Say an individual wanted an "alpha/beta" type relationship, they (male or female) may start looking for someone who would meet their needs/desires.  This could be a physically strong female/male looking for a physically weak female/male, or a economically poorer male/female looking for a mate/platonic-partner that would bring them what they lack or more of what they have to get greater advantage/stability.

This is not to say that love does not happen.  Humanity is physically and mentally wired for the emotion to come through, whatever the social situation in which one may find themselves.  And while I may argue that since begetting young is still a biological imperative, love would spring up to better enforce a female/male relationship, yet this is has proven to not always be the case and love can just as easily spring up in between those of the same sex.  Desire for companionship is strong and expresses it's self in all forms in the Known World, just as much as it does in Real Life.  I would even go as far to say that sexual experimentation with one's own sex would be more common in a world where there is no social value, for good or for ill, placed on it.  Plenty of cultures around the world have broad attitudes as to what passes as "acceptable" displays of affection between men and men and women and women.

But I digress...

Whatever the "social ancestry" that led to current day Zalanthan moral views on who pairs up with who, I would say that making assumptions on someone's place for simply possessing a vagina or penis would be the attitude that is considered "queer" (in the sense of "odd."  I used the word deliberately to call in modern context of discomfort and social out-casting).

[Mad Max]

Just because you use the term 'Lord'/'him' doesn't mean it actually is a 'he'...  I am sure someone has seen the 'Lord', if one even exists, maybe just a puppet, etc.  But if the masses have not or even most of militia, who knows... Perhaps what 'she' lacks in 'length', more than makes up for it with her sword...

Here's the conundrum, though. If Zalanthas was free from sexism, why would she feel the need to lie to make up for anything? What would be the advantage of portraying yourself as male?

Player convenience/hold over from yester-year (original arm).

One could argue that if there is no sexism on Zalanthas, there would be no titles to distinguish in between titles reserved for males and titles reserved for females.

My personal interpretation is that the sexes used to not be equal and that, in accordance with the Dark Sun influence on the game, Zalanthas used to be a pretty typical Tolkien-esque world until the Dragon's coming.  The resulting wasteland it brought about kick-started adaptation and survival of the fittest into overdrive and any species that could not produce individuals of either sex that were as strong independently as together, perished.  The lingering titles are evidence of the old Time of Kings, or something.

As for how males and females view one another in a "courting" manner or general social situations, I would assume it has more to do with who is deemed the "stronger" in the pairing or who brought the most advantage by hooking up/socializing.

Say an individual wanted an "alpha/beta" type relationship, they (male or female) may start looking for someone who would meet their needs/desires.  This could be a physically strong female/male looking for a physically weak female/male, or a economically poorer male/female looking for a mate/platonic-partner that would bring them what they lack or more of what they have to get greater advantage/stability.

This is not to say that love does not happen.  Humanity is physically and mentally wired for the emotion to come through, whatever the social situation in which one may find themselves.  And while I may argue that since begetting young is still a biological imperative, love would spring up to better enforce a female/male relationship, yet this is has proven to not always be the case and love can just as easily spring up in between those of the same sex.  Desire for companionship is strong and expresses it's self in all forms in the Known World, just as much as it does in Real Life.  I would even go as far to say that sexual experimentation with one's own sex would be more common in a world where there is no social value, for good or for ill, placed on it.  Plenty of cultures around the world have broad attitudes as to what passes as "acceptable" displays of affection between men and men and women and women.

But I digress...

Whatever the "social ancestry" that led to current day Zalanthan moral views on who pairs up with who, I would say that making assumptions on someone's place for simply possessing a vagina or penis would be the attitude that is considered "queer" (in the sense of "odd."  I used the word deliberately to call in modern context of discomfort and social out-casting).

To Omn- Touche mon capitaine... However, how many "true" female leaders are there in the game?  North, South, Red Storm Village or any where?  Are there actually any female leaders currently or ever with in recent history?  Not as a diplomat, not just in the war cabinet, or even second in command, but actually the head of the country or large town etc.?

And to Pale Horse- Go be merry and gay and smoke a fag... (I caught your odd meaning of the word and obviously don't really smoke it is bad for your health...)  I like your views.  It would make sense to need both sexes equally strong (in a sense) to survive.

But regards to love, it is a very powerful thing, some would say the MOST powerful.  Not that any magic is involved or you are granted any special abilities or super-human strength.  But why else would a husband and a father (Or a mother for that matter.) out right forfeit his life for his wife and children against all odds?  I mean sure, good people will be good and help anyone.  But when you love someone... well... nothing else seems to matter...  You'll scrape and claw until your fingers bleed and torn to the bone as you try to stop what it was trying to hurt your family.  That has to mean something.

[joyofdiscord]

  As others have stated, different real world cultures have different ways of doing things....

I like you, NewPlayer!  I've gotten on this soapbox many times, (often when people on the GDB are arguing some subtle variation of "The Zalanthan boys should wear blue and the Zalanthan girls should wear pink because that's the one true way of nature!"): Earth culture is tremendously varied, and Zalanthas is a fantasy world, which means its parameters can vary even further beyond anything possible on Earth.  It makes me so glad to see another imaginative player in the game that gets this idea. Welcome!

[slvrmoontiger]

  As others have stated, different real world cultures have different ways of doing things....

I like you, NewPlayer!  I've gotten on this soapbox many times, (often when people on the GDB are arguing some subtle variation of "The Zalanthan boys should wear blue and the Zalanthan girls should wear pink because that's the one true way of nature!"): Earth culture is tremendously varied, and Zalanthas is a fantasy world, which means its parameters can vary even further beyond anything possible on Earth.  It makes me so glad to see another imaginative player in the game that gets this idea. Welcome!

Pink axes rule for either sex!!!!!!!!!!

[Omn]

To Omn- Touche mon capitaine... However, how many "true" female leaders are there in the game?  North, South, Red Storm Village or any where?  Are there actually any female leaders currently or ever with in recent history?  Not as a diplomat, not just in the war cabinet, or even second in command, but actually the head of the country or large town etc.?

You're validating my point. There are no grand matriarchs between the two most powerful people in the world, and most smaller-fry leaders that I know of (which isn't many) have been male. There's a glass ceiling in the existing history and lore.

ETA: Which isn't the worst thing ever, but it seems contrary with the 'there's no sexism in our fantasy universe' bit.

[Lizzie]

Oh please. The game was founded by a bunch of guys, who wanted to play their own mud version of Dark Sun. That game, is a male-centric game. So it stands to reason that the original sorcerer-kings of the two cities would be male. So far, no female - or even any other male - has succeeded in usurping either of the two kings that have been kings since before the game switched from being a H&S to an RPI.

That is why the 2 city rulers are male. There is no other reason, it has nothing to do with IC sexism, and everything to do with the OOC fact that its developers were guys who wanted to create a hack-n-slash with their buddies and base it on a male-centric D&D game, which also had males as the rulers.

There ARE, however, clans in the game that are led by matriarchs. And since no one has ever seen the Sandlord, no one knows even if it's a singular person - or if it's a male or female. It's just called Sandlord. Sandlady sounds silly, and Sandperson is utterly stupid.

There's no reason why male AND female can't all be called one thing - and why not Lord? Lord is just a made-up English word, in the fantasy world of Zalanthas it could refer to "a ruler of a city-state or other main geographical location" with no specification of gender. Sort of like in some military organizations, the female leader of a group is called Sir. It doesn't mean she wants people to think she's male. It means Sir is the designated term of authority, and is not specific to gender.

[slvrmoontiger]

Oh please. The game was founded by a bunch of guys, who wanted to play their own mud version of Dark Sun. That game, is a male-centric game. So it stands to reason that the original sorcerer-kings of the two cities would be male. So far, no female - or even any other male - has succeeded in usurping either of the two kings that have been kings since before the game switched from being a H&S to an RPI.

That is why the 2 city rulers are male. There is no other reason, it has nothing to do with IC sexism, and everything to do with the OOC fact that its developers were guys who wanted to create a hack-n-slash with their buddies and base it on a male-centric D&D game, which also had males as the rulers.

There ARE, however, clans in the game that are led by matriarchs. And since no one has ever seen the Sandlord, no one knows even if it's a singular person - or if it's a male or female. It's just called Sandlord. Sandlady sounds silly, and Sandperson is utterly stupid.

There's no reason why male AND female can't all be called one thing - and why not Lord? Lord is just a made-up English word, in the fantasy world of Zalanthas it could refer to "a ruler of a city-state or other main geographical location" with no specification of gender. Sort of like in some military organizations, the female leader of a group is called Sir. It doesn't mean she wants people to think she's male. It means Sir is the designated term of authority, and is not specific to gender.

I don't know calling both men and woman Lords starts to sound silly to me. Kind of like the thing that always annoyed me about StarTrek was calling everyone Sir that was your superior.

[Lizzie]

Oh please. The game was founded by a bunch of guys, who wanted to play their own mud version of Dark Sun. That game, is a male-centric game. So it stands to reason that the original sorcerer-kings of the two cities would be male. So far, no female - or even any other male - has succeeded in usurping either of the two kings that have been kings since before the game switched from being a H&S to an RPI.

That is why the 2 city rulers are male. There is no other reason, it has nothing to do with IC sexism, and everything to do with the OOC fact that its developers were guys who wanted to create a hack-n-slash with their buddies and base it on a male-centric D&D game, which also had males as the rulers.

There ARE, however, clans in the game that are led by matriarchs. And since no one has ever seen the Sandlord, no one knows even if it's a singular person - or if it's a male or female. It's just called Sandlord. Sandlady sounds silly, and Sandperson is utterly stupid.

There's no reason why male AND female can't all be called one thing - and why not Lord? Lord is just a made-up English word, in the fantasy world of Zalanthas it could refer to "a ruler of a city-state or other main geographical location" with no specification of gender. Sort of like in some military organizations, the female leader of a group is called Sir. It doesn't mean she wants people to think she's male. It means Sir is the designated term of authority, and is not specific to gender.

I don't know calling both men and woman Lords starts to sound silly to me. Kind of like the thing that always annoyed me about StarTrek was calling everyone Sir that was your superior.

It never bothered me a bit. But then, I'm comfortable and confident in my femininity that using traditionally masculine terms to describe females doesn't threaten me. Except at restaurants when the waiter says "Hi guys." For some reason - that just bugs me. But being called Sir doesn't bother me, seeing other females called Sir doesn't bother me, unless someone is just not realizing that they're talking to a female and is using the word specifically to refer to a male.

But the whole Politically Correct stuff is silly, and has no place in Zalanthas, just as gender inequality has no place in Zalanthas.

[Omn]

It never bothered me a bit. But then, I'm comfortable and confident in my femininity that using traditionally masculine terms to describe females doesn't threaten me. Except at restaurants when the waiter says "Hi guys." For some reason - that just bugs me. But being called Sir doesn't bother me, seeing other females called Sir doesn't bother me, unless someone is just not realizing that they're talking to a female and is using the word specifically to refer to a male.

But the whole Politically Correct stuff is silly, and has no place in Zalanthas, just as gender inequality has no place in Zalanthas.

Oh, maybe you misunderstood me. I'm not concerned with PC - it's moreso that there are some glaring issues with the claim of non-existent sexism in the game. I just don't see it as displayed in day to day roleplaying, and the setting doesn't really speak to the contrary. I'm all for whatever gender disparity happens, it's a cruel dark world, Zalanthas, but it's non-sexist in proclamation only.

[Lizzie]

I guess I just don't consider having male rulers "sexist," on an IC level. OOCly - sure. ICly - not at all, because it wasn't done intentionally to show male dominance. It was done because in real life (not to be confused with fantasy), males who write stories tend to select other males as their "big guns." Sure, it might be sexist of them to do this, but they're not going into the game and saying "boys rule girls drool." They're saying "we're guys, creating a guy-game, and so we will have guy leaders." I don't even really consider that sexist from an OOC point of view, but I'd allow that some people might.

It just really doesn't bother me in the slightest.

In addition as I have already said - there are clans that are ruled by females.

Lastly - if it bothers you enough - if you truly think it's sexist, and would like for it to change, or want to even challenge the point - well - enjoy the tired, old, haggardly, wrinkled, decrepit cliche: Be the change.

[Jherlen]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

[Kronibas]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

Pretty sure Sathis was a dude.  Aquila was female, though, and that player went on to contribute a great deal to this game.

[Omn]

Lastly - if it bothers you enough - if you truly think it's sexist, and would like for it to change, or want to even challenge the point - well - enjoy the tired, old, haggardly, wrinkled, decrepit cliche: Be the change.

Really, again, I don't care if it is what it is, it's a non-issue for me. The documentation of 'no sexism exists' isn't reflected coherently in the universe, in part because of players still using the same gender and relation stereotypes. There are female leaders in the real world, none of them at the top seats: a lot like Zalanthas. I'd say the majority of people are playing with the same understanding of gender disparity as they have in real life, fantasy settings, fiction, media, which makes sense. Does it fit documentation? No.

[LauraMars]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

Pretty sure Sathis was a dude.  Aquila was female, though, and that player went on to contribute a great deal to this game.

Yah, Sathis was a dude.

[Case]

I've seen, and played, strong leadery women. It happens.

[slvrmoontiger]

Until very recently in Tuluk, the Lirathan Order ran the show day to day, and the High Precentor of the templarate (the most powerful person in the city besides Muk Utep) was a woman.

At different points in time I'm sure the heads of all the Great Merchant Houses and Noble Houses has been a woman.

Not sure, but I always assumed Sathis Valika and/or Aquila Nenyuk (major Allanaki Red Robes mentioned on the history page) were female.

There's plenty of cool PC female leaders we could name off, too.

Before the last HRPT the High Precentor was Jihaen so would have been a male.

[Lizzie]

Lastly - if it bothers you enough - if you truly think it's sexist, and would like for it to change, or want to even challenge the point - well - enjoy the tired, old, haggardly, wrinkled, decrepit cliche: Be the change.

Really, again, I don't care if it is what it is, it's a non-issue for me. The documentation of 'no sexism exists' isn't reflected coherently in the universe, in part because of players still using the same gender and relation stereotypes. There are female leaders in the real world, none of them at the top seats: a lot like Zalanthas. I'd say the majority of people are playing with the same understanding of gender disparity as they have in real life, fantasy settings, fiction, media, which makes sense. Does it fit documentation? No.

Comparing with the real world makes *zero* sense though. This is my big issue with trying to push "realism" on a fantasy game. In the real world, you don't have only two city-states, one accessible village, one distant tribal underground (literally) outpost, one central outpost, one tiny shop-based outpost that is supposed to be mythical but everyone knows about.

In the real world, you have hundreds of opportunities to be the leader of a country, because there are hundreds of countries. Those countries are male-led, because their culture revolves around male-dominated leadership. In some cultures, women would never *want* to be leaders, and would prefer to leave the responsibility to the men. In others, they are oppressed and not considered worthy. In yet others, they've tried, but were shot down by the voting populace. And in the UK, the leader is, and has been, the Queen, for several decades, and has been led by a Queen at some points prior to Liz's crowning. There's been a female Prime Minister in the UK, and there was a female Prime Minister of Canada.

Furthermore, there are *several* countries in the real world that are, or have been, ruled by women. Ecuador, Libya, Argentina, Ireland, Panama, Latvia, Finland, the Phillipines and Indonesia, to name just some.

In Zalanthas, there are no votes. There's no democracy, you can't impeach the local sorcerer-king. And there are only two sorcerer-kings, because there are only two countries. In Luir's Outpost, the leader is selected by the family that owns the outpost. I am pretty sure that the leader has at least once been female. In Blackwing, it is jointly run by an entire tribe. I'm not sure who is the leader of that tribe, but it's probably male, sure. In Cenyr, I have no idea if there even IS a ruler. It seems like it's probably led by consensus of the shopkeepers who run the shops. Red Storm Village - the Sandlord, who no one has ever seen, and therefore has no indication of its gender, or even if it's of some humanoid species. It could be a real live true-hermaphrodite Wyvern for all anyone knows, and therefore is both male and female.

Those are the only current possibilities of territorial leadership in Zalanthas. It isn't even somewhat remotely comparable to real life.

[i love toilets]

I want to go into the game and count the number of male v female human, non-mutant, mundane (all that leadership requirement) players. don't get me wrong, the placement of men and women on the leadership ladders in this game, once noticed, is kind of disturbing. But how much of that is controlled simply by the fact that male pcs significantly outnumber the female? (I'm serious! Someone tell us.)

[slvrmoontiger]

I want to go into the game and count the number of male v female human, non-mutant, mundane (all that leadership requirement) players. don't get me wrong, the placement of men and women on the leadership ladders in this game, once noticed, is kind of disturbing. But how much of that is controlled simply by the fact that male pcs significantly outnumber the female? (I'm serious! Someone tell us.)

I think that the number of male PCs versus the number of female PCs if greater only makes sense. From what I've seen and heard the number of male players is higher than the number of female players. And with the lack of sexism there really isn't a want for a male player to play a female PC unless they really like doing that type of thing.

[Case]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

[valeria]

I don't think the statistical composition of IG leaders says anything about whether men and women are equal in the game.  Are the two main City leaders dudes?  Yes.  Chances of that happening randomly?  25%.  As for the Sand Lord, if we're going to start going into small settlements, we'd need to survey the tribal groups, Cenyr, Luirs, etc to get an idea of the composition.

And there are a ton of female leader PCs in the game.

[slvrmoontiger]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

I have to agree with this at this point. This was talking about relationships not leadership roles... How do males and female work together or communicate or have fun together. Not who is in power... At least that's what I took the OP meaning to be.

[Case]

Regarding relationships - do what it takes to screw who you wanna screw. That's how Zalanthans court.

[Seeker]

I think the answer here is gonna be:  find out IC.  Which really means, "make it up yourselves."

My take is that the prime point of Armageddon's "equality of genders" thing is just to open up possibilities.  I suspect the reason there is not much guiding documentation on the whole relationship issue is mostly to prevent limiting those possibilities.

For players:
Make it up for your PCs, don't contradict the simple doc. guidelines
don't OOCly insist everyone play your way or that you are right

For your characters:
try to find someone(s) who wants to relates with your outlook
Enjoy/suffer

[TimTembo]

There have been female PCs at various points - not going to name names or time periods - that have basically run the gameworld. As in, shit doesn't happen without their knowing about it and say so.

They may not be parading around the streets as visible leaders but they are running the show.

[Omn]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

I'm really not sure where the strawman came from. This isn't a rally for equality, at least not on my part. Like I've said in nearly all of my posts, I don't care about whether there is equality or not in game. The gender of leadership PCs was used in comparison to RL leadership because I'm trying to make the point that:

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either.

And there are a lot of commonalities with RL and Zalanthas in terms of how people treat gender, gender stereotypes, and how they treat relationships. Is all gender disparity in the real world sexist? No. Do players bring their understanding of character development and psychology to the game first before having to figure out what a sexism-free world is like? Yes, the ones who pay attention to documentation do, and try to modify their behavior. Some people simply write characters with the same common roles they innately know from other fantasy stories. The damsel in distress, the strong warrior, the gentle aide, the roguish thief. Can these be degendered? Surely.

But writing that our notions of relationship and sexism IRL don't carry over into Zalanthas because documentation says they don't simply isn't true, at least from my experiences in play and by how volitile/dead horse these conversations seem to be here on the GDB.

[Case]

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players, and a good deal of opposite sex play. What is expected here? A female leadership quota?

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either. What a member of either sex prefers their position be, guided by gender or by biological sex either way, is not sexist. Until it's established that there are fewer women leaders than statistically expected, which is currently gutfeel without some data - what is the point of getting worked up about it? Who here thinks women can't be in charge because they're female?

I'm really not sure where the strawman came from. This isn't a rally for equality, at least not on my part. Like I've said in nearly all of my posts, I don't care about whether there is equality or not in game. The gender of leadership PCs was used in comparison to RL leadership because I'm trying to make the point that:

If there is a disparity, it's a holdover from rl. Not necessarily sexist either.

And there are a lot of commonalities with RL and Zalanthas in terms of how people treat gender, gender stereotypes, and how they treat relationships. Is all gender disparity in the real world sexist? No. Do players bring their understanding of character development and psychology to the game first before having to figure out what a sexism-free world is like? Yes, the ones who pay attention to documentation do, and try to modify their behavior. Some people simply write characters with the same common roles they innately know from other fantasy stories. The damsel in distress, the strong warrior, the gentle aide, the roguish thief. Can these be degendered? Surely.

But writing that our notions of relationship and sexism IRL don't carry over into Zalanthas because documentation says they don't simply isn't true, at least from my experiences in play and by how volitile/dead horse these conversations seem to be here on the GDB.

You lost me at strawman. I never made one - which amusingly means you made a strawman argument against me. I digress.

Your second paragraph is what I said but for some reason you decided to elaborate. So, cool?

To repeat myself, summarised:
I think it's silly to try and force sexual equality and removal of social gender roles upon people who actively live them (that's all of us!). We have to accept this unless staff enforce it to the level of specific rules.

[Refugee]

There's no glass ceiling for female PCs and that's all that matters.  Think about that.  THAT'S WHAT MATTERS.  

Females can achieve as much and make as much as males.  They can be combat leaders, staff, anything.  The game's fine.

What players do ingame is what players do.  PCs can be jerks.  Arrange some consequences for the jerks.

I've seen quite a few female leaders, anyway, PC and NPC alike, in combat and non-combat situations.

[Mad Max]

Well if RL is any indicator of the game, most females do run the show in some form or fashion, some more discretely than as others...     Behind every good man is a good woman.  May not be as political correct as it once was, but it still has a ring of truth to it.

I know of plenty of MMORPGS, where guys play as girls for two major reasons.  1.  When they ran around the game world for months if not years, they wanted to see the back side of a pretty polygon female character.  And 2. Most (I say most... a lot at least.) guys will want to out right help out a female character, or at the very least group with them.  Again see reason #1...  (There was a story in a PC gaming mag of a reviewer, purely by accident, picked a female character for I believe Everquest, realized his mistake but said screw it because he did not have to redo his character creation and started playing.  It had not been more than a few minutes to an hour before he was getting hit on, grouped with for hard to find areas and mobs and even getting tricked out gear, all because they thought he was a female behind the monitor.  A SGT of mine had done the same thing in Ultima Online, and he was getting mad loot and was like "wow, the players here are really nice!"  Then the "tells" started to come in and he was like "WTF!?"...    )  A 3rd reason could simply be that the game restricted certain races or job classes to a female only gender character.  Like FF Online had a female kitty race.  Another MMORPG has only certain classes a female can be and only certain classes a male can be and if you want the one not your real life gender, you swap in game.

But I like the idea of no sexism in the game.  As far as I know, none of the guilds or subguilds at least, are off limits to either sex.  But of course what is seen as on the surface, doesn't really mean that is how it is or in individual areas or how the player base plays it.  Again see #1...

[i love toilets]

I must have hit a sausagefest area in the last few months because I really don't remember the ratio being this bad for a while. It seems more common these days for there to be one or no chicks at the bar.

This is getting ridiculous now. There's lots of female players

male pcs significantly outnumber the female

I find it hilarious if I'm playing a girl, for a female pc to get catty and defense with mine because we're both supposedly women. Scary, sometimes, funny, you bet.

[LauraMars]

The point behind the gender-equal society is not that it's a well-supported IC phenomenon, but that, OOCly, women should have exactly the same opportunity to enjoy the game as men.  Female characters should be just as capable of playing a clan leader, cunning hunter, skilled mercenary, influential senator, shrewd merchant, and deadly assassin as any male character.  Sex should never come into the equation when considering a character for an appointment or role.  And as long as this is maintained, I can look past some of the subtle physical and mental breakdowns we occasionally demonstrate in our day-to-day interactions between our male and female characters.

-LoD

[Omn]

lol.

LauraMars, I think it's cool and fair that the game is intended to be equal opportunity, at least from an OOC standpoint. Thanks for sharing that.