Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[williamson]

I've read the majority of these posts and I think the new system is going to be pretty interesting. Especially, once it pans out over a few months. I'd suggest that there would be more gray area for the templars. No one has mentioned pricing. However, I hope that it's left up to the PC templars to decide. I'd hate for it to be mandated by some chart in the templar docs. For example:

If someone approaches a templar to have their important and loyal partisan assassinated (perhaps unknowingly), the templar would be free to give them a ridiculously high price for the assassination. This would clue in the buyer that the person is important to the city or at least the templar in question.

What if someone begins to regularly bribe a templar to keep themself safe? Would this be allowed to factor into their cost of their assassination?

After the successful completion of huge contracts, will there be a rule in place to prevent the templar from killing the shadow artist and keeping all the coins for themself?

I'll be looking forward to see the new system in place.

[williamson]

Oh my God. I'm not even through the first page and already I'm [self edited].


1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

You can still put a contract on a Tuluki templar. However, you'll need to find an assassin that's willing to work outside the licensed system or pay one a huge amount of money to break the rules. Obviously, there will still be assassins located in Luir's, Allanak, and Red Storm and they'll be less likely to worry too much about breaking the Tuluki system's rules.

That's my point. I don't think it's very Tuluki like to hire outside your homeland. I'd think it as a major act of treason, and isn't it all about appearances?

Isn't it already a major act of treason to WANT TO KILL A TEMPLAR?

I mean if I'm a respected member of northern society and I wanted to kill a Faithful, I probably don't give a flying fuck about what Muk Utep thinks of me and give way more fucks about doing the job quickly and efficiently and hoping it never leads back to me.

If I'm not a respected member of northern society and I want to kill a Faithful, I still give zero fucks about Muk Utep and am probably planning on leaving town once the job's been done.

Bingo

[Nyr]

What you're asking for is the ability to perform like an independent, unaffiliated contract killer with the full rights to negotiate contracts while simultaneously working within the system and retaining all of the privilege and status of that institution.  You want your cake and you wanna eat it, too, as the saying goes.  I can't blame you for that, but it doesn't make you right.  An oppressive city-state run by a god-King dictator is an oppressive city-state;  there is no democracy, or even illusion of choice.
<snip>
If you wanna be that guy, do it, but outside of the system.

Yeah, I guess I am asking for independent contractors who want to work but don't want to be more-or-less sworn agents of the Templarate to be viable. For a thriving criminal community that has more than one dimension, I think they need to be. The thing is, what I'm asking for is already in the system today. I'm worried that by making Shadow Artistry the only viable way to be a sneaky lawful criminal in Tuluk, you're actually shutting out many other types of characters who would want to play that role, and work within a lawful system like they can today, but with different motivations.

Ok, I get where you're coming from in your discussion but you're going to have to disabuse yourself of the notion that they are sworn agents of the templarate.

They are sworn agents of the system.  They do the job.  The templars aren't hiring them (unless they are, which they won't know, anyway).  Templars are keeping the artists in line, yes, but only as a matter of making the system work.

What you're asking for is in the system today, but it's also a system today that is underused and seemingly prone to corruption; these docs would fix that.

You seem to want to play somebody who's cold-blooded and totally devoted to whatever jobs the templars would throw at you, and that's a cool role too, but should that really be the only role available for lawful crime in Tuluk? Let's be honest, you can play that same cold-blooded devotee in Allanak, with a templar's backing, and it'd be pretty much the same in practice. Tuluk has just set up more formality around it, but hasn't expanded the area of the game. I'd like to see it expanded.

I kinda have to laugh that we're discussing the intricacies of whether we have enough role depth available for people to play lawful criminals in Tuluk.  Honestly, not many people are doing it, nor are they really using the current system.

You've identified part of the problem, but I think your solution is just going to create more issues of its own. The way to encourage more lawful criminals in Tuluk is not necessarily to force those criminals to do jobs for templars. It's perhaps encouraging more ways for them to find jobs - the templars could have a hand in that, but putting all the coins in their basket raises issues that have come up across this thread.

They are not doing jobs for templars.  Templars are just brokers.  They might also be the hiring agent at times but in general, they're just brokers.

Since the system is double-blind, the broker has all the power in negotiating the cost and the artist. So depending who you're after and how the templar feels about it, you might get Nightshade Silentstrike the unparalleled assassin to do your contract for 200 sid (because he can't refuse anyway), or you might get charged 5000 sid for Amos the tall, muscular 0-day burglar. This is why it seems like the broker shouldn't be a political entity so that contracting agents can at least entertain an illusion of fairness and impartiality.

But again, that's an expectation that the templar is going to do that...when the rules are such that they won't, at least not at this time.

Nyr, you're talking about a lot of these problems being fixed because people will "have faith in the system", "templars have rules they will follow", "templar's won't/shouldn't do this or that", etc. Many of these scenarios are plausible ICly, under the system we've seen so far. It's a shame to shut them down because of documentorial fiat. What we haven't seen is a compelling incentive why templars will want to enforce the system fairly. What do they, personally, gain from it? Or are we admitting Tuluk is a culture where templars aren't motivated by personal/political gain?

If they enforce a fair system, more people use it, they get more contracts.
More contracts = more money.
Also, conveniently, they have NSA-like fingers in the goings-on of the city-state, and having a forced information network is useful.

Part of what makes a templar scary is that by and large, there are no rules around what they can do to the average Commoner Amos. They have to face consequences for their actions, but I think it's a huge loss if we tell people that they can just trust templars won't screw them over because they have this abstract system defined by documentation to uphold. I want templars to be corrupt and screw people over. I want them to have internal struggles and fight each other and try desperately to foil each other's plans, ruin their contracts, etc. That all goes out the window if we start placing constraints that they have to adjucate things like this fairly. Words like "fair" and "rules" and words like "templar" should not go hand in hand.

Templars won't screw you over with this system.  They will screw you over every other way.  This is their meal ticket (or if not their meal ticket--since they get taxes coming in--it is certainly a tidy bit of money it can make them).  You don't cut off the hand that feeds you.  Also, this is Tuluk.  Words like "fair" and "rules" and "templar" can and do go hand in hand because words like "Hlum" and "utterly destroyed" and "never existed" go hand in hand, and can't be spoken.  It's not impossible to hold two conflicting ideas in mind at the same time, and it's not impossible for a corrupt government to have one area deemed above corruption and yet be corrupt itself.  

You want people to ruin contracts and stuff.  You can't have that without contracts to ruin in the first place.  Maybe if/when this takes off we can make changes in this area...but until then, I don't think we're going to agree on this point.

Tuluk needs a system where crime can be considered lawful, where PCs are able to find other PCs to commit crimes for them, where lawful-criminal PCs can have incentive to work within the system while still being self-serving, and where the templarate can tacitly approve of such activities without templars needing to get their hands dirty administering all of them, at the expense of their own interests. I think that's achievable! I just think this system needs to be iterated on to get there. I think the gaps can be closed by removing some of the rigid "this always is how things go" language, rather than by demanding the IC and OOC trust of people involved that the system will Always Work.

Like I said, we're probably going to start with the rigid language to enforce the mindset first, then relax if needed--or as needed--as time goes on.  Things might change, but this probably isn't one of those things.

[Nyr]

Concerning the idea that an Artist may not be on at the same time as a Victim, should it be considered more... good form if an Artist is to be given a contract, to put it immediately into a Character Report (as I'm sure the Templar would have) just so staff can review it? Not that it'd be a REQUIREMENT per se, but if you can't complete a contract a RL month later and you expect staff to know why, it'd be foolhardy.


Which runs into the issue that you're sort of an "independent" that now has to inform staff of all your kills, which could get .... time consuming. If you're X-D.

We could do that, or we could just say that if you're having a problem with a contract from any angle, just put in a request.  That might be easier and removes any need for artist players to do extra work.

[Ouroboros]

If you want to go after a templar?  I've got news for you, and it might not be a newsflash or anything...but if you want to kill a templar, why do you care about the rules of this system?  You're already bucking the "rules" by wanting a templar dead; how you choose to make that happen at that point probably isn't going to consider the intricacies of Tuluk's shadow artist system.  Just like people that kill templars as Allanaki citizens typically don't get to hang out in Allanak afterwards, you can probably bet on the fact that killing a templar as a Tuluki citizen isn't going to typically leave you with a city retirement.

I'd hazard to guess because if you want to kill a Templar through this system, you're already playing a Templar and care about the system deeply. Or those who approached you for patronage on this do. How one goes about such a thing is exactly what separates the North from the South. The "why's" of such a scenario are always the same, everywhere. It's the "how's" that separate true-inked loyalists from southron barbarians.

While yes, anyone can theoretically kill a Templar, that's not what this discussion's about. Anyone can be gotten to, assuming the simple fact that staff's willing to permit it. Resurrections clearly state what happens when that isn't the case. However this is about how this ties into Tuluki culture. One can be a Northern loyalist and still wish to see a specific Templar dead.

You seem to be focusing on the polished, ivory-carved veneer of the culture you're trying to renovate, and ignoring the maggot-ridden mass of murder, corruption and betrayal that lies beneath it. The North is civilized, but far more brutal than the South is, beneath that. Ask any player that's tried to "buck the system" in the North and they'll be happy to share their experiences.

Let me shine a different light on this... Historically examine the number of Southern Templars that have died to PK's (and not been resurrected) against those of Northern Templars. You might then see why the North needs a way for this to happen, within its culture and documentation. This system doesn't open the floodgates to the death of Northern Templars, but at least it can offer a slim chance at a semblance of balance, in a documented and structured system that staff can oversee properly.

And at the end of the day, what's the worse that can happen? A lack of eternal, ever-present and omnipotent Templars in the North? The South seems to have done just fine with its Templars being rotated now and then, I'm sure the North could survive the loss of an occasional Templar. In fact, I'd go as far as to say some regular rotation would do the North more good than harm. In my experience many sponsored roles go stale after a few RL years, and need to be taken out before they spoil. The higher the position, the more lethal the stink, when that happens.

[Nyr]

Just like an artist would have to do their job, a templar would have to do their job--which means making the system work.  Sure, they might HAVE IC biases.  Acting on them by manipulating this brokerage system would be foolhardy.  Acting on those in other ways sounds more reasonable.

Foolhardy it might be, but far beyond the realm of impossibility. Templars are frequently corrupt, in-character, I think this is something we can share in an open discussion that involves them. It goes back to absolute power corrupting absolutely. By documentation and public perception they might be paragons of virtue, but both from an IC and OOC standpoint that myth can't be made real. A Templar would have to be played a robot in order to remain unbias, be that IC or OOC, as a player or staff. The difference is in the South this is commonly accepted, whereas in the North it hides behind a veneer of virtue.

Justifying biased actions through convenient ruses is one of the things Templars excel in, especially in the North where there's a facade to be maintained. I hardly think it's a stretch to consider the very plausible abuse of this system by a Templar, when they only have staff to answer to and can devise IC justifications for their actions on a whim. That's also not something I feel can or will change, but I do think it can be taken under consideration when trying to fool-proof a new system being implemented.

So are you saying you want this system to be biased and allow templars to abuse it in ways they see fit?  I'm not saying that's a bad thing or an intended thing or whatever, just trying to understand your intent.

We brought this up in the first place and here's why we disagreed on it... [snip] First, it'd need at LEAST a templar to do the contract in the first place. Second, if a templar in Tuluk wants another templar in Tuluk dead, that sounds like a plot ripe for some discussion with staff so we can figure out whether this makes sense or not.

A contract of any sort, be it assassination, theft, or otherwise, would certainly need that. And I included that in my statement as well, as presented. I'm not arguing that anyone other than a Templar should be able to put out a contract on another Templar, but I am arguing that at least that much should be open to the system. Templars are above the law, but should not be above the political machinations of other Templars. It's the only thing that can keep them in check, from an IC standpoint, outside of the long arm of staff.

As for a Templar wishing another Templar dead, or stolen from, or defamed in other ways... It's clearly not beyond the realm of possibility. It never has been, and recent public events clearly illustrate it remains to be the case. Should it be common or frequent? Of course not. But the possibility should be there, and when we're writing things in stone it's a good time to consider that.

If a templar wants to kill another templar in their same city-state, we'd like to know about it.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility, no, but when this sort of thing occurs, on an OOC level, it's nice to know on a staff level so we can both be aware and decide the potential reaction of the templarate to such a thing--whether it fails or succeeds.  It helps us get prepared for either possibility as well.

Maybe it can be loosened up in the future, but as stated above and earlier, making it fast and loose now might spell trouble for those wishing to find the holes in the system that were NOT intended to be there.

I think we're simply coming at it from opposite ends. I see the current system in place, the one in place for the past decade or so, as fast and loose and full of loop holes. Abuse of power has occurred repeatedly in many player's eyes, over the years. It's not a topic I'd like to open because I know where it will lead. But my point here is, making Templars liable for their actions and susceptible to the very system they're sworn to uphold, is a small step towards ensuring that abuse is minimized to some extent. The only reason to keep this as it stands, is to continue to protect certain roles from being held accountable to their actions and the environment around them. In those instances, when those roles become so crucial that losing the character would have game-wide effects, the roles should be in the hands of NPC and not PC. No sponsored role should ever be offered to players if the game or staff can't adjust to their loss. And unfortunately such roles have and still do exist in the game.

So now...we want to keep from having it abused by templars?

I'm not following you.  

Actually Rathustra hit on a fun idea of having a confession-booth style thing.  I never really thought of it being its own script-worthy event where someone goes in, writes on a board, then leaves, and it goes to staff, but...hmm... Would that really get rid of the appearance of bias?  Maybe...but would it increase staff work?  Yep...we'd have to review these cases ourselves or sub it out to templar PCs, which would be defeating the purpose anyway.

I think Rathustra's idea is spot on, minus that being subb'ed to Templars of course. Reviewing contracts is already bound to happen since each contract would likely find itself in several player reports, be it from the artist, the agent, or the broker in question. So being "subjected" let's say to these is unavoidable. Which only leaves the simple act of any one of our talented storytellers to animate an NPC and Way or meet the artist in question.[/quote]

We are not going to do this.  It'll come up normally as it does already.

And while I agree that it would increase the workload on staff to some extent, keeping in mind obviously that contracts won't be set forth on a daily basis by every player in the north... I can live with that, as should any staff member who's made the decision to volunteer their time. Ensuring a fair system is in play is one of the key aspects staff is here for, and why they're offered the power to act as judge, jury and executioners when players misstep. Personally I would have no issues with a contract taking a few days longer to see it executed, if I knew that bias was limited through this system. If nothing else, this system would actually ensure even an off-peak player has a chance at setting forth or taking on a contract, without having to track down whatever the current Templar PCs might be.

Speaking as a staff member, I can't live with that and won't.  I'm not increasing the workload of the Tuluki team just to satisfy players that feel an IC system is biased.  The idea of a lot of these things are to improve with an eye towards simplifying when possible or just documenting it better so that it can remain in player hands.  Putting it in staff hands and increasing staff workload is not part of the deal.  If an off-peak player needs a contract and seriously cannot find a templar (even one that is also off-peak), then they can contact staff like they already do.

[Nyr]

Yes. I'd rather they were kept in the dark but only stepped in to check licensing when they suspect the rules were broken, than to make them always agree to contracts. I'll be frank. I think you'll see a steep drop in artistry if they get turned into automaton that must accept every contract their offered.

I'll be frank, too...I doubt that it can get much lower or less utilized than it is now.  I'm willing to accept that if that turns out to be the case and adjust it farther down the road.

1) Think of social climbing. You should be able to kill -anyone- above you for gain and status. Period. Anyone in your way is a target. I should be able to take a contract out on CL Winrothol to please my CL Dasari and gain favor, status, promotion. They should cost more, way more if they are above you, but NO ONE should be beyond the reach of a supposed "shadow artist". Including Templars.

You can kill anyone you want.  You just can't kill anyone you want legally, in Tuluk, unless you have the right social status or are the partisan of someone with the right social status who is then putting in a contract on your behalf.  That's Tuluk, social status, period, and makes it different from Allanak even more.  It creates more reasons for independents to find patronage.  It creates more reasons for interaction.

2) They're supposed to be deemed worthy before they're inked. "Should the prospective artist be deemed worthy of handling these duties, the artist will be given a tattoo that signifies that they are a registered shadow artist." - Anyone should be able to register, the inking should either come WHEN the person is deemed worthy OR you shouldn't be inked at all. What newb shadowy artistry person isn't gonna suck? Isn't gonna be seen? Maybe they're implying that you shouldn't register until you've twinked out all your skills? I dunno. I only know it doesn't make sense for me to say I'm an ubersassin, register for it when my skills are for shit and then be penalized with death when I suck at my job. Makes for a difficult time to get any good and really REQUIRE a patron which, I'll have to leave at some point if I'm good anyway.

I'll be honest, there are some PCs that I would not register as a shadow artist.  We're talking about IC reasons here and nothing more.  Someone that is a known blabbermouth is not going to be good artist material and should not be inked.

3) It's both, especially since you have to basically get another templar to patron you for you to be able to kill the one you wanna kill anyway... get it?

Get with me when you want to kill a northern templar and have good reason for it and are also playing a Tuluki; we'll go from there on the issues. 

[Nyr]

Oh my God. I'm not even through the first page and already I'm [self edited].


1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

You can still put a contract on a Tuluki templar. However, you'll need to find an assassin that's willing to work outside the licensed system or pay one a huge amount of money to break the rules. Obviously, there will still be assassins located in Luir's, Allanak, and Red Storm and they'll be less likely to worry too much about breaking the Tuluki system's rules.

That's my point. I don't think it's very Tuluki like to hire outside your homeland. I'd think it as a major act of treason, and isn't it all about appearances?

uh

you're trying to kill a templar

isn't that a major act of treason?

[Nyr]

That's my point. I don't think it's very Tuluki like to hire outside your homeland. I'd think it as a major act of treason, and isn't it all about appearances?

Isn't it already a major act of treason to WANT TO KILL A TEMPLAR?

I mean if I'm a respected member of northern society and I wanted to kill a Faithful, I probably don't give a flying fuck about what Muk Utep thinks of me and give way more fucks about doing the job quickly and efficiently and hoping it never leads back to me.

If I'm not a respected member of northern society and I want to kill a Faithful, I still give zero fucks about Muk Utep and am probably planning on leaving town once the job's been done.

lol, yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking here...

[Nyr]

I agree that templars ought to be off limits to the "lawful" formal criminal system in whatever shape it takes. The social caste part of who can take a hit out on who, I think, is pretty solid.

Now, should anything stop a templar from trying to recruit a really good shadow artist assassin "off the books" to take out a rival templar? No, but of course those two are fully aware of the consequences for them both if they get caught.

Well they're aware there are consequences, maybe not exactly what they are, though...*puts a pin in that one too*

[Nyr]

I've read the majority of these posts and I think the new system is going to be pretty interesting. Especially, once it pans out over a few months. I'd suggest that there would be more gray area for the templars. No one has mentioned pricing. However, I hope that it's left up to the PC templars to decide. I'd hate for it to be mandated by some chart in the templar docs. For example:

If someone approaches a templar to have their important and loyal partisan assassinated (perhaps unknowingly), the templar would be free to give them a ridiculously high price for the assassination. This would clue in the buyer that the person is important to the city or at least the templar in question.

What if someone begins to regularly bribe a templar to keep themself safe? Would this be allowed to factor into their cost of their assassination?

After the successful completion of huge contracts, will there be a rule in place to prevent the templar from killing the shadow artist and keeping all the coins for themself?

I'll be looking forward to see the new system in place.

These are also interesting points that might need to come up in docs as well so as to flesh out some of these "sharp edges" that some folk seem not so cool with

[Jherlen]

What you're asking for is in the system today, but it's also a system today that is underused and seemingly prone to corruption; these docs would fix that.

You know better than we do how well the system gets used. So certainly, we can try and tweak the system to eliminate underuse. But does this go overboard? Are shadow artists, or players who would potentially play them, really looking for a system to be set up that seems to force them into taking jobs, or do they just want jobs to be easier to find and consider? Your other point, about the system being prone to corruption, sounds GREAT. Why do we want it to be less corrupt?

Nyr, you're talking about a lot of these problems being fixed because people will "have faith in the system", "templars have rules they will follow", "templar's won't/shouldn't do this or that", etc. Many of these scenarios are plausible ICly, under the system we've seen so far. It's a shame to shut them down because of documentorial fiat. What we haven't seen is a compelling incentive why templars will want to enforce the system fairly. What do they, personally, gain from it? Or are we admitting Tuluk is a culture where templars aren't motivated by personal/political gain?

If they enforce a fair system, more people use it, they get more contracts.
More contracts = more money.
Also, conveniently, they have NSA-like fingers in the goings-on of the city-state, and having a forced information network is useful.

So enforcing the system fairly (against yourself) = potential of more contracts down the road. But enforcing the system fairly against yourself also = certainty that your assets are going to be harmed, plans disrupted, etc. Is a bird in the hand really not worth (potentially, later) two in the bush to every Tuluki templar? If given the certainty of immediate pain for possible future financial gain, I don't think we can categorically expect every templar to want to shoot themselves in their own foot in every situation. The potential for corruption is there, as it should be. Unfortunately that corruption would undermine trust in the system, and then no one would use it. It goes back to what I said back on page 2 or 3 about expecting templars to act against their own best interest. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Templars won't screw you over with this system.  They will screw you over every other way.  This is their meal ticket (or if not their meal ticket--since they get taxes coming in--it is certainly a tidy bit of money it can make them).  You don't cut off the hand that feeds you.

It wouldn't even take a mildly clever templar to figure out how to exploit the "meal ticket" part of the system while also neutering it against his interests. Tulukis are not too dumb to figure that out. And the presumption has to be that if a templar can do something in his own best interests (not the City's, not the Templarate's, his own), he will. It would seem that if you wanted to take a contract out on someone, you had better be damn certain the Faithful you approach wants the same things you do. This just doesn't seem like something the whole city will take on trust.
 

Also, this is Tuluk.  Words like "fair" and "rules" and "templar" can and do go hand in hand because words like "Hlum" and "utterly destroyed" and "never existed" go hand in hand, and can't be spoken.  It's not impossible to hold two conflicting ideas in mind at the same time, and it's not impossible for a corrupt government to have one area deemed above corruption and yet be corrupt itself.

ICly, in terms of propaganda, yes. But in terms of the game, OOCly? I just don't buy that we should be forcing templars to be fair and follow some rules just so documentation "works". And like I said, ICly NOT in terms of propaganda, I don't buy templars would have the incentive to make their hands actually match their mouths behind the scenes.

This system can still work, but maybe it requires some sort of new role to broker the contracts so that PC templars can go on being the corrupt conniving assholes we all want them to be. A merchant house, a special type of bard, a self-run Shadow Artist's Guild , or some other Arbiter in Tuluk that is indirectly managed by the templarate, but has a charter of staying neutral, staying out of political affairs, and ensuring just that contracts are brokered fairly and violations of the process are punished severely. Such an entity could easily sprout up, and if it did indeed stay neutral, would have a much easier time commanding the trust of everyone involved. I'd not only love to play a Shadow Artist then, I'd love to be the guy brokering the deals.

I really hope you'll consider all this feedback and give these ideas and others some serious thought. I'm going to back out of this thread until we can see a new round of Beta docs for public comment. Thanks for all you've shared.

[Nyr]

If you want to go after a templar?  I've got news for you, and it might not be a newsflash or anything...but if you want to kill a templar, why do you care about the rules of this system?  You're already bucking the "rules" by wanting a templar dead; how you choose to make that happen at that point probably isn't going to consider the intricacies of Tuluk's shadow artist system.  Just like people that kill templars as Allanaki citizens typically don't get to hang out in Allanak afterwards, you can probably bet on the fact that killing a templar as a Tuluki citizen isn't going to typically leave you with a city retirement.

I'd hazard to guess because if you want to kill a Templar through this system, you're already playing a Templar and care about the system deeply. Or those who approached you for patronage on this do. How one goes about such a thing is exactly what separates the North from the South. The "why's" of such a scenario are always the same, everywhere. It's the "how's" that separate true-inked loyalists from southron barbarians.

While yes, anyone can theoretically kill a Templar, that's not what this discussion's about. Anyone can be gotten to, assuming the simple fact that staff's willing to permit it. Resurrections clearly state what happens when that isn't the case. However this is about how this ties into Tuluki culture. One can be a Northern loyalist and still wish to see a specific Templar dead.

You seem to be focusing on the polished, ivory-carved veneer of the culture you're trying to renovate, and ignoring the maggot-ridden mass of murder, corruption and betrayal that lies beneath it. The North is civilized, but far more brutal than the South is, beneath that. Ask any player that's tried to "buck the system" in the North and they'll be happy to share their experiences.

I think if you want to kill a templar in Tuluk and you're a templar, you have ways of doing that and if you want to do that, you should talk to your staff, who are more than happy to discuss it with you!

Let me shine a different light on this... Historically examine the number of Southern Templars that have died to PK's (and not been resurrected) against those of Northern Templars.

Okay, cool, I can do this!

There have been 11 templar PCs that have died since 2010.

Of those 11 PCs, 7 were Tuluki templars.
Of those 7, 5 died to PK, 2 others to NPCs.
Of the 4 Allanaki Templars, 2 died to PK.

You might then see why the North needs a way for this to happen, within its culture and documentation. This system doesn't open the floodgates to the death of Northern Templars, but at least it can offer a slim chance at a semblance of balance, in a documented and structured system that staff can oversee properly.

And at the end of the day, what's the worse that can happen? A lack of eternal, ever-present and omnipotent Templars in the North? The South seems to have done just fine with its Templars being rotated now and then, I'm sure the North could survive the loss of an occasional Templar. In fact, I'd go as far as to say some regular rotation would do the North more good than harm. In my experience many sponsored roles go stale after a few RL years, and need to be taken out before they spoil. The higher the position, the more lethal the stink, when that happens.

I think what I see is that we need to kill more Allanaki templars.  Hop to it!

[Ouroboros]

So are you saying you want this system to be biased and allow templars to abuse it in ways they see fit?  I'm not saying that's a bad thing or an intended thing or whatever, just trying to understand your intent.

No, what I'm saying is that we can accept that players are biased as a whole, and instead of pretending it isn't the case, recognize it, minimize it where we can, and balance it where we can't so that at least the playing field is level from an OOC standpoint.

If a templar wants to kill another templar in their same city-state, we'd like to know about it.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility, no, but when this sort of thing occurs, on an OOC level, it's nice to know on a staff level so we can both be aware and decide the potential reaction of the templarate to such a thing--whether it fails or succeeds.  It helps us get prepared for either possibility as well.

I'm not sure what this is in argument towards, since within this system or without it, staff would be appraised of such actions regardless. If anything, they're guaranteed to be appraised if such a hit is made through this system, than they might be otherwise. Unless you're confusing being appraised of, with approving of, I'm not sure what you meant to say with the above.

So now...we want to keep from having it abused by templars? I'm not following you.  

Neither am I, it seems. How does opening up the system to use by Templars against Templars translate into abuse? By that line of thought, anyone using this system is abusing it, no? I think you've mistaken two separate issues. One is that Templars shouldn't be brokers, because they are biased and will remain so by the very nature of the roles they play. The other is that Templars shouldn't be above the system itself, among other reasons because they have no other checks and measures towards their inherent bias in the North, other than direct staff intervention.

We are not going to do this.  It'll come up normally as it does already.

You were the one that shared Rathustra's idea in the first place, so I assumed it was under discussion and we're not presented with things already set in stone here. No worries either way though, just clearing up why I brought it up.

Speaking as a staff member, I can't live with that and won't.  I'm not increasing the workload of the Tuluki team just to satisfy players that feel an IC system is biased.  The idea of a lot of these things are to improve with an eye towards simplifying when possible or just documenting it better so that it can remain in player hands.  Putting it in staff hands and increasing staff workload is not part of the deal.  If an off-peak player needs a contract and seriously cannot find a templar (even one that is also off-peak), then they can contact staff like they already do.

If you're intent on keeping Templars as brokers, be it because your can't think of a system that doesn't increase the workload on staff or because your faith in the players you select for Northern Templars is unshakable, it only further emphasizes the need for them be not be above the system they're essentially administrating.

I think if you want to kill a templar in Tuluk and you're a templar, you have ways of doing that and if you want to do that, you should talk to your staff, who are more than happy to discuss it with you!

If such ways exist already, what's one more, that's actually working within the Tuluki system of assassination? Is it an issue of the method, of informing staff, or of gaining approval from staff? And what if you're not a Templar that wants to kill another Templar, but a Templar that's considering patronage of such a contract for whatever suitable benefits that might offer them?

Okay, cool, I can do this! There have been 11 templar PCs that have died since 2010. Of those 11 PCs, 7 were Tuluki templars. Of those 7, 5 died to PK, 2 others to NPCs. Of the 4 Allanaki Templars, 2 died to PK.

And how many of those Tuluki Templars were Lirathans? Because I should just leave this right there.

I think what I see is that we need to kill more Allanaki templars.  Hop to it!

Oddly enough, what I get from those numbers is that there's a lot less hate towards Southern Templars from the player population. It makes one wonder why that is.

[Nyr]

What you're asking for is in the system today, but it's also a system today that is underused and seemingly prone to corruption; these docs would fix that.

You know better than we do how well the system gets used. So certainly, we can try and tweak the system to eliminate underuse. But does this go overboard? Are shadow artists, or players who would potentially play them, really looking for a system to be set up that seems to force them into taking jobs, or do they just want jobs to be easier to find and consider? Your other point, about the system being prone to corruption, sounds GREAT. Why do we want it to be less corrupt?

It's not prone to corruption.  It's "seemingly" prone to corruption.  This would remove the seemingly entirely and make it not prone to corruption.  Why do we want it to be less corrupt?  Not sure.  I just want it to be used if it's there.  If it requires it to look like it's a system that works, and requires some restrictions initially, I'm all for trying it.

Nyr, you're talking about a lot of these problems being fixed because people will "have faith in the system", "templars have rules they will follow", "templar's won't/shouldn't do this or that", etc. Many of these scenarios are plausible ICly, under the system we've seen so far. It's a shame to shut them down because of documentorial fiat. What we haven't seen is a compelling incentive why templars will want to enforce the system fairly. What do they, personally, gain from it? Or are we admitting Tuluk is a culture where templars aren't motivated by personal/political gain?

If they enforce a fair system, more people use it, they get more contracts.
More contracts = more money.
Also, conveniently, they have NSA-like fingers in the goings-on of the city-state, and having a forced information network is useful.

So enforcing the system fairly (against yourself) = potential of more contracts down the road. But enforcing the system fairly against yourself also = certainty that your assets are going to be harmed, plans disrupted, etc. Is a bird in the hand really not worth (potentially, later) two in the bush to every Tuluki templar? If given the certainty of immediate pain for possible future financial gain, I don't think we can categorically expect every templar to want to shoot themselves in their own foot in every situation. The potential for corruption is there, as it should be. Unfortunately that corruption would undermine trust in the system, and then no one would use it. It goes back to what I said back on page 2 or 3 about expecting templars to act against their own best interest. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, but there's a loophole in the system for templars in the form of soldiers, so I think they'll be okay.

Templars won't screw you over with this system.  They will screw you over every other way.  This is their meal ticket (or if not their meal ticket--since they get taxes coming in--it is certainly a tidy bit of money it can make them).  You don't cut off the hand that feeds you.

It wouldn't even take a mildly clever templar to figure out how to exploit the "meal ticket" part of the system while also neutering it against his interests. Tulukis are not too dumb to figure that out. And the presumption has to be that if a templar can do something in his own best interests (not the City's, not the Templarate's, his own), he will. It would seem that if you wanted to take a contract out on someone, you had better be damn certain the Faithful you approach wants the same things you do. This just doesn't seem like something the whole city will take on trust.

Well...I guess we'll see.  I'm not sure which points you're trying to make here...that it can be exploited if a templar wants to?  That people just wouldn't believe that templars are handling the system neutrally?  On the other hand, you're saying it should be corrupt because that's cool.  Which is it?

Also, this is Tuluk.  Words like "fair" and "rules" and "templar" can and do go hand in hand because words like "Hlum" and "utterly destroyed" and "never existed" go hand in hand, and can't be spoken.  It's not impossible to hold two conflicting ideas in mind at the same time, and it's not impossible for a corrupt government to have one area deemed above corruption and yet be corrupt itself.

ICly, in terms of propaganda, yes. But in terms of the game, OOCly? I just don't buy that we should be forcing templars to be fair and follow some rules just so documentation "works". And like I said, ICly NOT in terms of propaganda, I don't buy templars would have the incentive to make their hands actually match their mouths behind the scenes.

This system can still work, but maybe it requires some sort of new role to broker the contracts so that PC templars can go on being the corrupt conniving assholes we all want them to be. A merchant house, a special type of bard, a self-run Shadow Artist's Guild , or some other Arbiter in Tuluk that is indirectly managed by the templarate, but has a charter of staying neutral, staying out of political affairs, and ensuring just that contracts are brokered fairly and violations of the process are punished severely. Such an entity could easily sprout up, and if it did indeed stay neutral, would have a much easier time commanding the trust of everyone involved. I'd not only love to play a Shadow Artist then, I'd love to be the guy brokering the deals.

Yes, something could sprout up.  But until then, I think it's possible to at least give it a shot.

I really hope you'll consider all this feedback and give these ideas and others some serious thought. I'm going to back out of this thread until we can see a new round of Beta docs for public comment. Thanks for all you've shared.

Definitely, thanks for chiming in, and good to see you back!

[GithMaster]

Let me shine a different light on this... Historically examine the number of Southern Templars that have died to PK's (and not been resurrected) against those of Northern Templars. You might then see why the North needs a way for this to happen, within its culture and documentation.

Templars are normally resurrected for what reasons?

[Nyr]

No, what I'm saying is that we can accept that players are biased as a whole, and instead of pretending it isn't the case, recognize it, minimize it where we can, and balance it where we can't so that at least the playing field is level from an OOC standpoint.

I don't think we're pretending it isn't the case that players can be biased.  I think we're asking that players play above that and roleplay since it's the first rule of the game.  If it doesn't work or seems horrible to play, we can change it, but I'd rather give the playerbase the opportunity to try something out that is different rather than just assume "well...this will never work because players can't handle it."

If a templar wants to kill another templar in their same city-state, we'd like to know about it.  It's not beyond the realm of possibility, no, but when this sort of thing occurs, on an OOC level, it's nice to know on a staff level so we can both be aware and decide the potential reaction of the templarate to such a thing--whether it fails or succeeds.  It helps us get prepared for either possibility as well.

I'm not sure what this is in argument towards, since within this system or without it, staff would be appraised of such actions regardless. If anything, they're guaranteed to be appraised if such a hit is made through this system, than they might be otherwise. Unless you're confusing being appraised of, with approving of, I'm not sure what you meant to say with the above.

I'm saying that if a templar wants to kill another templar, we want to know about it, and that has very little to do with a system that allows them to do that or not.  Making rules that include the outliers isn't needed, I don't think.

So now...we want to keep from having it abused by templars? I'm not following you. 

Neither am I, it seems. How does opening up the system to use by Templars against Templars translate into abuse? By that line of thought, anyone using this system is abusing it, no? I think you've mistaken two separate issues. One is that Templars shouldn't be brokers, because they are biased and will remain so by the very nature of the roles they play. The other is that Templars shouldn't be above the system itself, among other reasons because they have no other checks and measures towards their inherent bias in the North, other than direct staff intervention.

You said abuse earlier...

Abuse of power has occurred repeatedly in many player's eyes, over the years. It's not a topic I'd like to open because I know where it will lead. But my point here is, making Templars liable for their actions and susceptible to the very system they're sworn to uphold, is a small step towards ensuring that abuse is minimized to some extent.

And you said that it should be kept out of templar hands...

In those instances, when those roles become so crucial that losing the character would have game-wide effects, the roles should be in the hands of NPC and not PC.

and then you threw in this, which...not really sure what you mean here, but apparently we have roles where staff and players can't adjust to their loss:

No sponsored role should ever be offered to players if the game or staff can't adjust to their loss. And unfortunately such roles have and still do exist in the game.

So yes, you seem concerned with abuse on one hand and allowing abuse on the other and I'm not sure what side you are taking here.

We are not going to do this.  It'll come up normally as it does already.

You were the one that shared Rathustra's idea in the first place, so I assumed it was under discussion and we're not presented with things already set in stone here. No worries either way though, just clearing up why I brought it up.

His idea was originally a confession-style booth unrelated to your idea.  I expanded it to include your thoughts, and then pointed out how your expanded idea wouldn't be ideal because of the additional work required.

Speaking as a staff member, I can't live with that and won't.  I'm not increasing the workload of the Tuluki team just to satisfy players that feel an IC system is biased.  The idea of a lot of these things are to improve with an eye towards simplifying when possible or just documenting it better so that it can remain in player hands.  Putting it in staff hands and increasing staff workload is not part of the deal.  If an off-peak player needs a contract and seriously cannot find a templar (even one that is also off-peak), then they can contact staff like they already do.

If you're intent on keeping Templars as brokers, be it because your can't think of a system that doesn't increase the workload on staff or because your faith in the players you select for Northern Templars is unshakable, it only further emphasizes the need for them be not be above the system they're essentially administrating.

I think if you want to kill a templar in Tuluk and you're a templar, you have ways of doing that and if you want to do that, you should talk to your staff, who are more than happy to discuss it with you!

If such ways exist already, what's one more, that's actually working within the Tuluki system of assassination? Is it an issue of the method, of informing staff, or of gaining approval from staff? And what if you're not a Templar that wants to kill another Templar, but a Templar that's considering patronage of such a contract for whatever suitable benefits that might offer them?

Okay, cool, I can do this! There have been 11 templar PCs that have died since 2010. Of those 11 PCs, 7 were Tuluki templars. Of those 7, 5 died to PK, 2 others to NPCs. Of the 4 Allanaki Templars, 2 died to PK.

And how many of those Tuluki Templars were Lirathans? Because I think you know as well as most everyone does in this discussion...I should just not talk about IC things.

...I see this is about more than this system and about you.  Let's not go there.  Moderated.

I think what I see is that we need to kill more Allanaki templars.  Hop to it!

Oddly enough, what I get from those numbers is that there's a lot less hate towards Southern Templars from the player population. It makes one wonder why that is.

Given your opinions towards this area, erm...we probably won't be seeing eye to eye on anything related to Tuluk.

[Law&Order]

10  With the Shadow Artists being sub-contractors for the City-State, will there be an established "artists union" being put in place to guide new players as well as veterans learning the system?

Not sure what you mean exactly...can you elaborate?

It seems that it's going to be recognized pretty well outright that most new players will be discouraged from playing Shadow Artists, from the standpoint that they won't be deemed worthy IC'ly because of the natural stumbling blocks that come from learning the new culture outright.  But having said that, there needs to be some actual system put in place where masters are put together with the less skilled, if they chose to garner the full benefit of these relationships with the City-State, for training and apprenticeships.  It would also allow such artists to keep an eye on prospective rivals and talent, while "working" for the unified goal of what can only be classified as organized crime.  Now is that a clan, an IC labor union, Artist's Guild, whatever?  There will need to be some concessions for this to be newbie friendly, because like it or not, Tuluk is a major starting point for newbies, and there is an allure to the wording of this system that would make new players as well as curious veterans and wary old timers to want to try it out.  It certainly sounds in the way it is written that the journey from newly inked apprentice to Master should be one that is a career of years, there needs to be something more in place to reward and support this.



As an aside, I have an awful time not seeing Shadow Artist and not being snarky and calling them Shartists.  In a city that's all about Radiance and Light...wouldn't being an artist of shadows be very, very bad? 

[Nyr]

10  With the Shadow Artists being sub-contractors for the City-State, will there be an established "artists union" being put in place to guide new players as well as veterans learning the system?

Not sure what you mean exactly...can you elaborate?

It seems that it's going to be recognized pretty well outright that most new players will be discouraged from playing Shadow Artists, from the standpoint that they won't be deemed worthy IC'ly because of the natural stumbling blocks that come from learning the new culture outright.  But having said that, there needs to be some actual system put in place where masters are put together with the less skilled, if they chose to garner the full benefit of these relationships with the City-State, for training and apprenticeships.  It would also allow such artists to keep an eye on prospective rivals and talent, while "working" for the unified goal of what can only be classified as organized crime.  Now is that a clan, an IC labor union, Artist's Guild, whatever?  There will need to be some concessions for this to be newbie friendly, because like it or not, Tuluk is a major starting point for newbies, and there is an allure to the wording of this system that would make new players as well as curious veterans and wary old timers to want to try it out.  It certainly sounds in the way it is written that the journey from newly inked apprentice to Master should be one that is a career of years, there needs to be something more in place to reward and support this.

"deemed worthy" is there as an out for templars so they don't have to ink people that are obviously bad for the job.  You can get a new PC inked up pretty quickly if need be already, and this system wouldn't be much different.

But a newbie-friendly thing, hrm...that's worth thinking about.

As an aside, I have an awful time not seeing Shadow Artist and not being snarky and calling them Shartists.  In a city that's all about Radiance and Light...wouldn't being an artist of shadows be very, very bad? 

ha!  Shartists.  I like it.

In a city that's all about Radiance and Light, Utep is the Radiant one, so that means every person casts a shadow, and the artist is the one that works within that shadow.  Or something.

[ShaLeah]

That's my point. I don't think it's very Tuluki like to hire outside your homeland. I'd think it as a major act of treason, and isn't it all about appearances?

Isn't it already a major act of treason to WANT TO KILL A TEMPLAR?

I mean if I'm a respected member of northern society and I wanted to kill a Faithful, I probably don't give a flying fuck about what Muk Utep thinks of me and give way more fucks about doing the job quickly and efficiently and hoping it never leads back to me.

If I'm not a respected member of northern society and I want to kill a Faithful, I still give zero fucks about Muk Utep and am probably planning on leaving town once the job's been done.

lol, yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking here...

I'll try and bring to light some shades of grey that really allow the beholder to judge between sanctioned and not sanctioned, why, in some instances, murdering a templar might not be so treasonous, besides the OBVIOUS if they're summoned by Muk into a locked room sands their guards.

Murder: Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder)  and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder)

Murder bad, right? Except in Tuluk, where murder is an art and where the only thing that makes it bad is a set of laws set forth by the Sun King. The same can be said for burglaries. In Tuluk these things are sanctioned. We're on the same page, right? Good.

So what makes murdering a lawmaker treasonous? The thoughts, the act?

If a Templar wants to murder another Templar, that's treason too? How about Legion to Legion? Right, so really the only thing that would make a Tuluki citizen treasonous is not -thinking- they hate a Templar, it's acting against it? 

As a commoner who hates templar X and decide to take it upon myself to get rid of it and commit said treason, I may, being the devout Tuluki that I am, beg the Sun King for forgiveness, castigate myself for going against my King's rule and a shitload more of RP besides running away. I could also not feel treasonous at all, if that mate of mine went into the Heart with the Templar and didn't come out, I might feel justified and vindictive, and separate said Templar from the all knowing Sun King in order to keep my delusion of faithful citizen. 

So yes, the act would be treasonous, but that doesn't and shouldn't go hand in hand with -not giving a fuck- about my Godking. You want a black and white statement keeping in with the rigidity of these new and intricate nuances of shadow artistry? Plotting against the Sun King, treason. There better be a difference between THAT and anything under Him being put into the "just as bad" category.

Feeling justified and acute, poetic love for your city and His Radiance,  you think:
                           "It's just a litttttttttttttttle treason, not like I'm plotting to kill the Sun King Himself."


I'll cede in the whole black and white they're really untouchable thought and change to a they're NOT SO entirely untouchable frame of mind, but in a land where the social classes -are- much less able to be crossed, how much would YOU be willing to risk as a favor for a commoner?

[Taven]

As an aside, I have an awful time not seeing Shadow Artist and not being snarky and calling them Shartists.  In a city that's all about Radiance and Light...wouldn't being an artist of shadows be very, very bad? 

ha!  Shartists.  I like it.

In a city that's all about Radiance and Light, Utep is the Radiant one, so that means every person casts a shadow, and the artist is the one that works within that shadow.  Or something.

Well, I personally feel like the term "shadow artist" was sort of a way of saying without saying that there's shadows in the city of light, and yes, they will kill you. A way of acknowledging the darker side of the city, but a term that's become so common-place, people don't recognize it for what it really suggests--That not only is it okay for you to be killed, Muk Utep actually has laws that support this, and His Faithful are administering the contract.

[Nyr]

Let me shine a different light on this... Historically examine the number of Southern Templars that have died to PK's (and not been resurrected) against those of Northern Templars. You might then see why the North needs a way for this to happen, within its culture and documentation.

Templars are normally resurrected for what reasons?

I don't think they generally are.  Bugs and stuff is about it.

[palomar]

If a new player wants to be a Shadow Artist, and the Templar PC doing the registration notices that the player on the other side is new to Armageddon, it would be easy to suggest to the PC that they find patronage/employment. Increased emphasis on patronage for Shadow Artists in order to get contracts, training etc would make it easier to guide those new players along. The new, expanded documenation will hopefully make it easier to understand how these things work, for both new and old players alike.

[Desertman]

I just read over all of the docs.

It is Durzo Blint and the Sa'Kage from Brent Weeks' Night Angel Trilogy.

The Templarate is the Sa'Kage basically for the purpose of managing the wetboys, and the shadow artists are the wetboys.

The setup is exactly the same, the social structures are almost identical, and the rules surrounding the arts of "law breaking" etc are basically the same within the organization.

A few minor differences, but basically, the same.

I like it. I love those books.

If whoever wrote these docs hasn't read The Night Angel Trilogy, I would be extremely surprised, and if you haven't, go do that, it will give you some fantastic ideas to add to what you have here already.

[Nyr]

Please note before posting that you shouldn't reveal or event hint at some IC stuff.  If you do want to discuss that IC stuff or just need to vent to staff about something, you can do that via the request tool.  This is not the place to go into things like that.  Just pre-empting anything that I think might be about to be posted because I can see Who's Online and about to post, and I know what I had to moderate earlier, and I want to not have to moderate more or throw out temporary bans.