Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

Started by Nyr, September 26, 2013, 02:11:06 PM

The hyperbole is in somehow asserting that anyone who sees a problem with this somehow is a Care Bear who wants nice happy endings for their character, and the tregil too. Nobody is arguing from that angle; what people are saying is the system is too rigid; from the artists' perspective, from the templars' perspective, and from the contracting agent's perspective. It sounds great on paper. I have serious doubts if it's flexible to hold up well when faced with the diversity of characters and situations the actual game is going to throw at it. That flexibility is a must in a roleplaying game. The roles this system seems to encourage are already very viable in Tuluk if that's your bag, and it presents a well-documented system for them, but just them. It really needs to have some fixes to make it broader and more workable for everyone involved.
subdue thread
release thread pit

Let's look at it like this, Jherlen ...

If your character cares so much about someone that they won't perform a contract kill on them, would they really just walk away from that meeting and never speak a word of it?  No sane Templar is going to believe that.  So, how do you fix it?

Now that I've fully read the docs, I have to say I like them largely as they are written. It makes sense that a criminal would have to give up much more than they currently do in Tuluk in exchange for state-sponsorship and protection. And it opens up room for real criminals to step in and fill in some gaps. Right now there is no downside to getting a license if you plan on breaking the law in Tuluk.

Maybe just add in a wrinkle to allow shadow artists to work for themselves on occasion for occasions when business is slow, or for a shadow artist whose skill set/skill level doesn't quite match any current contract. You could require the shadow artist to pre-clear small self-sustaining jobs with their templar handler, with the understanding that a small percentage of the profits belong to the government, and that would add in some IC flexibility while maintaining the new feel that the government really does own every contracted criminal in the city.

Krath, that would just suck to have you contracted to kill your own mate or lover or whatnot. Perhaps there should be something about registering who your lover or mate might be so that the Faithful don't choose you for those contracts.
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Quote from: slvrmoontiger on September 27, 2013, 01:48:45 AM
Krath, that would just suck to have you contracted to kill your own mate or lover or whatnot. Perhaps there should be something about registering who your lover or mate might be so that the Faithful don't choose you for those contracts.

It would be interesting. It would be drama.

It's perfect, IMO.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on September 27, 2013, 01:49:50 AM
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on September 27, 2013, 01:48:45 AM
Krath, that would just suck to have you contracted to kill your own mate or lover or whatnot. Perhaps there should be something about registering who your lover or mate might be so that the Faithful don't choose you for those contracts.

It would be interesting. It would be drama.

It's perfect, IMO.

True it would be.
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Crazy idea out of left field:

Move actual licensing to His Chosen. Keep registration with The Faithful.

Recruitment
The Shadow Agent approaches a noble and says "I'll work for you or your buddies." Or a noble finds promising individuals and offers to be their broker (and even helps get them registered).

Brokering
The noble then acts as a broker for those who hold some influence with him. Same rules apply on the caste system and targets. If these rules are broken and His Faithful find out a heavy fine is levied, qynars re-assigned etc. Don't do it unless you notify staff and are super careful.

License check:

If His Faithful catch a Shadow Agent in the act they check licensing, and excise the 'fine' themselves. If you're going to target Faithful Lord Amos' partisan the lovely Talia then you better not get your license checked, ever. Do the deed and move on.

Wrapping up
Talia has gone missing. It's been several weeks. The Chosen Lord has a private meeting with a Faithful Lord/Lady and mentions which contracts were fulfilled that month. He never discloses the names of who did what.

Promotion
A noble has to sponsor you for promotion. Only one promotion is allowed each year per broker. This ups the competition on doing your job well.

Problems solved

(1) No one is really safe.
(2) There's an obvious bias. Pick your broker. Play on that side of the field.

Problems created

* Nobles in Tuluk are severely under represented, and there aren't many who stick to the role for a long time. All it takes is one broker to store or take a hiatus to derail a lot of people's aspirations. The way to solve this is to tie brokerage to each House, so any noble of that House can act as a broker to the same pool of shadow agents.

* GMHs will need to ally themselves with a Chosen Lord to dip into his pool of licensed assassins.

Exemption

His Legion, His Faithful and His Chosen are all immune. They shouldn't be killing each other anyway. There's a war on!

It's a very Tuluki solution I think.

Thoughts?

Quote from: Morrolan on July 16, 2013, 01:43:41 AM
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


September 27, 2013, 02:20:43 AM #107 Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 02:24:17 AM by LauraMars
Quote from: OnlyChicken on September 27, 2013, 01:29:29 AM
Let's look at it like this, Jherlen ...

If your character cares so much about someone that they won't perform a contract kill on them, would they really just walk away from that meeting and never speak a word of it?  No sane Templar is going to believe that.  So, how do you fix it?

Smoke trailing from the end of her tube of spice, the ice-cold-eyed Lirathan templar asks, in sirihish:
    "I need ya to snuff a moll. Got herself a life, a family. She's a real piece of work. You might have heard of her, but it don't matter, see? So give her the ol pyramid shoes an toss her in the crater, see? You understand what I'm saying to you?"

Eyes glinting ominously in the shadows of his hood, you exclaim, in sirihish:
    "His Will be done, Faithful Lady! I will fulfill the contract!"

(The tall and thick figure in the skull-embroidered hooded greatcloak's fingers tremble.)

You suffer from the use of the Way.

You think:
    "Aw hell. It ain't worth it."

>w
>w
>w
>enter apartment

Bursting through the doors, ripping off his skull-embroidered hooded greatcloak and replacing it with a jaunty fedora, you shout, in sirihish:
    "Sally! Pack your bags, we gotta split! Eunoli's girls is after ya, and they's hot on my tail!"

Stuffing garments and other possessions frantically, desperately into a large bag, you shout, in sirihish:
     "Managed to buy us a little time by playin patsy, but we've gotta beat it! I've been tangling with the wrong crowd all along!"

The ice-cold-eyes Lirathan templar has arrived from the east, holding a loaded crossbow in one hand and a carefully rolled tube of spice in the other.

The ice-cold-eyes Lirathan templar smokes her carefully rolled tube of spice.

The ice-cold-eyes Lirathan templar looks down at you.

Child, child, if you come to this doomed house, what is to save you?

A voice whispers, "Read the tales upon the walls."

September 27, 2013, 02:23:04 AM #108 Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 02:29:33 AM by Jherlen
QuoteIf your character cares so much about someone that they won't perform a contract kill on them, would they really just walk away from that meeting and never speak a word of it?  No sane Templar is going to believe that.  So, how do you fix it?
How did we get in that situation to begin with? I'd say the templar done fucked up, he should have known to pick an artist that wasn't emotionally attached to the target. That's an IC mistake he can bear IC consequences for. Since the broker is a templar, he can of course kill the artist for refusing anyway if he really wants to keep the hit ultra-secret. But that shouldn't be the only avenue to go down. I can see times when disappearing a skillful shadow artist because he didn't want to take a contract would probably be worse than just risking the target might learn and be on their guard. Leaving it open to possibilities is way better than having a doc saying This Must Always Happen Exactly Just So.

Not to mention, a sane Templar shouldn't be believing that the norm is a shadow artist is going to be willing to betray his loved ones all for the sake of the abstract ideals of shadow artistry anyway. Some will be willing and some won't. I suspect many will take the "flee Tuluk and go live in Red Storm" route out of the situation. Maybe somebody should start up an express desert escort service.

But besides love, there are lots of other viable reasons I can see an artist wanting to refuse -- most of these will probably be far more common anyway.

  • The contract is beyond their skill and they know it, and they don't want to risk failure or death.
  • The contract is beneath their skill and isn't a challenge, and they don't want to waste their time
  • The reward offered isn't worth the risk, or isn't enough to cover expenses
  • They're too busy with other work

All of those reasons and more are part of a typical negotiation if you're trying to hire a criminal anywhere else, but in Tuluk, since the criminal has no power to refuse offers, they're at the helpless mercy of the broker arranging their deal. And that broker is a templar. And the templar will kill you if you refuse. So who are the only people who become shadow artists in Tuluk? People who have criminal skills but are anything but criminals, and are willing to use those skills any way they're told to by the templars. And who won't become shadow artists? Anyone who has criminal skills but would prefer to be the master of their own destiny and take jobs on their own terms. I suspect the latter group is larger than the former, especially since your typical criminal type probably has issues with following the rules/laws to begin with. Shadow artistry would seem to be more of a niche, when the docs apparently want it to be the norm. So how do you bring it back to the norm? Make the system less rigidly do-or-die for the artist. There have been lots of great suggestions on how to do that in this thread besides mine.
subdue thread
release thread pit

Quote from: Jherlen on September 27, 2013, 02:23:04 AM
Leaving it open to possibilities is way better than having a doc saying This Must Always Happen Exactly Just So.

What you're asking for is the ability to perform like an independent, unaffiliated contract killer with the full rights to negotiate contracts while simultaneously working within the system and retaining all of the privilege and status of that institution.  You want your cake and you wanna eat it, too, as the saying goes.  I can't blame you for that, but it doesn't make you right.  An oppressive city-state run by a god-King dictator is an oppressive city-state;  there is no democracy, or even illusion of choice.

And really, what is the point of this debate?  It's likely to almost never arise, as a good Templar is going to keep tabs on their tools.  In the bizarre and rare circumstance it does happen, it would make for interesting roleplay.

Also, I have to point out the lack of realism in denying such a contract in the first place.  Put yourself in that character's boots.  Imagine you're a killer.  Your "broker" (we'll use that term, the actual term is, funny enough, an "agent") tells you they want you to kill a woman.  They didn't do their research, obviously, because it turns out the target is your wife.  Do you say "I can't do that, it's my wife!!"  Do you turn that job for someone else to do?  Or do you take it, and figure out how to deal with it?

Food for thought, I suppose.

Your other viable reasons don't make sense to me, at all.  Why take a position like that if you don't want to do it?  It seems the grudge in those cases is you don't want to work for the Templarate, you want to work for yourself.  Again, you're desiring an indie killer role in a state-sponsored environment.  If you wanna be that guy, do it, but outside of the system.

Anyway, I've said my piece.  That'll do, pig.

Quote from: janeshephard on September 26, 2013, 06:12:13 PM
Quote from: Nyr on September 26, 2013, 06:06:21 PM
As for templars and neutrality...you are right. In general, templars have political bias. In this case, part of their job becomes brokering this system. That means making it work. It sounds as though you don't believe it or feel another group would handle it better. What exactly is the problem with the templarate running it if they run it by these guidelines?

Problems with Templars running it:

* It's time for a big battle. A northern born GMH Agent shows up and asks for a contract against a Noble's Sergeant (who also happens to be a fearsome warrior and a proven battle veteran). We're not talking internal politics anymore. Removing this Sergeant could hurt the tide of battle. This Sergeant kanked the Agent's mate and stole her.

* A Chosen Lord decides over the course of a month to pay heavily to have key employees removed from another Chosen Lord's House. The Templars are getting valuable information from these employees about southron plans.

I'd give you a third example, but I'm showing you ones that don't involve internal politics -- instead they relate to external threats. If contracts are never refused then a refusal would raise red flags (oh I wonder what that dude has that I don't?). Instead of an artist can refuse, the Templar can sit on the contract for a couple of weeks and then inform the buyer that a suitable artist can't be found for the job.

Of course this also means Templars won't put out contracts on friends and pets.

1. A) The templar sits on the contract- waiting until after the battle. B) The templar gives the contract to an artist, and lets them figure out that offing the Sergeant during the battle might be a convenient time. C) The templar DGAF about the sergeant and finds an artist.

2. A) The templar insinuates to the purchaser that, although legal, the contract would be inconvenient. B) The templar DGAF about anything and lets the contract go.

Basically- the PC templars can have a big effect, but they need to not dictate everything in the sandbox. This gives a bit of political manuevering to be done. What if you want a rival removed, who -happens- to be an important spy for Lady Templar Girla? You either push the contract through another templar who seals the contract until the deed is done, or find a way to make it worthwhile to the Lady Templar to push your contract through.

"Everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

"Do not become addicted to water, it will take hold of you and you will resent its absence."

I just hopes this gives people something to do.

I've played in tuluk as a fairly well known assassin. Nobody wanted anyone dead, nobody even tasked him to spy on their rivals.
Now you're looking for the secret. But you won't find it because of course, you're not really looking. You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled.

Quote from: Jingo on September 27, 2013, 03:43:34 AM
I just hopes this gives people something to do.

I've played in tuluk as a fairly well known assassin. Nobody wanted anyone dead, nobody even tasked him to spy on their rivals.

It will. Most people who roll Tuluk don't know this exists until they find out IC. Nyr is writing much clearer documentation on this.
Quote from: Morrolan on July 16, 2013, 01:43:41 AM
And there was some dwarf smoking spice, and I thought that was so scandalous because I'd only been playing in 'nak.


I believe I have an angle which doesn't seem to have been covered much.

Characters:
We have:
Amos, Shadow Artist. The player of Amos puts in a solid couple of hours each night after the kids are in bed, and has been doing so for a long time now.
Malilk The Insulting Grebber. His mastery of invective has won him many exciting and powerful enemies. The player of Malik is a few time zones away, and pops on to play fairly briefly.
Talia, The Conscientious Templar. Talia's just been approved last week and is all new and shiny. Player of Talia is playing lots and lots.

Scene:
Talia had hardly been in game long enough to meet with her first Chosen before someone important in Kadius came up and requested to take out a contract on Malik. Talia's done some homework: Amos is by reputation the best shadow artist of his type among active PCs. She approaches Amos and tells him to kill Malik. Amos hasn't met Malik, but expects to meet him soon.

But he doesn't.

The player of Amos logs in and logs in and occasionally Amos meets someone who knows Malik who says he's often seen in such and such a place, or some other place, and he goes there, but Malik's never there. The player even resorts to staying up late some nights, to the detriment of marital harmony, but it so happens that on those nights, Malik's player is forced to work late and Malik isn't around either.

Time ticks by.

We're an IC year on, now, and Talia's getting frustrated. The Kadian has been quite discreet in asking why Malik's still around and saying things to his crafters that make them cry, but last time Talia ordered a new gemmed bangle, the price quoted made her wince. She hauls Amos in and quizzes him.

All Amos can do is make excuses.

Finally, Malik wanders off down the North Road to see who he can annoy in Luir's. He's got enough enemies now that he thinks he might try on a new name for a bit.

Talia asks Amos: is Malik dead yet?

Amos hasn't heard anything about Malik in some time, but really can't say for sure. If he does try his luck with a "yes", Malik's sure to be bored of Luir's and come home to torment the Salarri. If he says "no", his wait to meet the grebber is prolonged further, and Malik may well run into a carru next time he goes walkabout.

How do we stop this happening?

There needs to be some fashion of graceful failure which is accessible to a Shadow Artist in cases where the target logs on at the wrong times, goes off on holiday and doesn't log on for a bit, or goes out and gets killed by something. There should also be some kind of set time period so jobs don't drag on indefinitely.

I would suggest that Amos gets to return to Talia and say, "Faithful Lady, killing Malik is beyond my art. He evades me at every turn. I have failed to complete this contract." And then Amos must pay back the bounty, and perhaps a fine besides, and suffer the consequences to his reputation with Talia. Frustrating, certainly, when it's an OOC circumstance beyond Amos' control, but not character-destroying.

This also fixes the lovers case, and possibly the partisan case, without Amos ever getting the right of refusal. In the lovers case, if Amos is engaged to kill his lover, he will return much later and admit his failure. Talia isn't likely to engage Amos for the task, because the cost to money and reputation is unlikely to deter him. In the partisan case, a patron who has instilled sufficient loyalty in their partisan might still be safe; a templar would have to exercise great care in turning such a tool against its creator.

We can keep the "no right of refusal". We can keep the "master shadow artists may be asked to turn against their patrons". We just need to add something that we need anyway: a device to handle OOC inabilities to do the job.

We will however also need some means of escape for a templar asked to handle contracts for tasks where no suitable Shadow Artist exists, or the Shadow Artist who's perfect for the job accepts it and then goes out and gets eaten by a defiler.
I am God's advocate with the Devil; he, however, is the Spirit of Gravity. How could I be enemy to divine dancing?

On reflection, the templar case is the tricky one.

It's clear both templars and shadow artists need outs against the contract target who's seldom online, or has run to Red Storm, or dies of her own volition.

With the shadow artist, we get the pleasing bonus that these outs can also be employed to constitute an effective refusal of a job.

With the templar, it becomes an issue that these outs can be employed to constitute an effective refusal of a job; but the templar needs them even more, because the templar has also to deal with the situation where the target is perfect but the last reliable shadow artist vanished just after taking the job on, or the shadow artist botches it. Once the templar is able to admit failure of the contract, there are many things the templar can do to skew the result with no effective IC oversight, from deliberately putting work into inexperienced hands (and hey, new shadow artists have to learn too) to delaying the transmission to the artist to suggesting to their favourite partisan that sometimes people go to Red Storm for the sake of their health. More than that, some of these will be beyond OOC oversight: if Talia deliberately hires Amos, gambling on his hours not overlapping with Malik's, it can be passed off as an honest mistake.

I may have to ponder this for a bit.

I am God's advocate with the Devil; he, however, is the Spirit of Gravity. How could I be enemy to divine dancing?

What happens if there's a *templar* who wants someone's reputation smeared, or loot looted, or life taken - but the target hasn't broken any actual laws so there's no grounds for arrest? She can make something up, and avoid having to pay an Artist or even getting another party involved. Or, she could pretend there's a broker, and hire an Artist herself. Or, if that's not allowed, she could easily wait for someone else to get pissed off by the target, and broker the deal. Which she would find her absolute best person, charge the absolute least money to the person wanting the job done - and cover the balance to the best person out of her pocket with no one being the wiser.

Seems to me like the templar holds ALL the cards - not just most of them, or some of them. The templar can do the reverse, for the reverse scenario - a broker asks for the ruination of someone the templar wants to remain unsullied. So the templar charges an exhorbitant fee, contracts the absolute least competent person to do the job, pays that least competent person a fraction of what that person -should- get for it, knowing that the artist is likely to not even bother trying, and fail miserably.

Also, if you're the artist and you don't want to do the job, you could just take it, and not do it. And claim you tried but failed.

In addition, I feel there should be -minimum- pay for the different ranks of artist. An apprentice assassin should be worth no less than 400 - with the templar keeping 100 and the assassin getting the other 300. A journeyman - no less than 700 - with the templar keeping 200 and the journeyman keeping 500. Master artist should be able to name their own price, and the templar should be able to demand a minimum of a 10% fee, and a maximum of 50% of the fee.

A thief stealing an individual item from a target's person - maybe it'd work in reverse. Give the apprentice 500 sids to successfully steal an item - because if he does, it's not going to be very likely he'll be able to get a second item for his own profit, since he's still an apprentice and not all that competent. A journeyman could get 250 - and a "free pass" at a second item of his choice. A master thief could get 200, his choice of items plus the item needed by the guy contracting the job, and the continued high esteem of the templarate.

Or something to that effect.

In other words - there should be more of an incentive to WANT to be licensed, other than "it's required." Because what assassin in their right mind would volunteer to get a license to kill people, if he knows that at some point he might be required to kill his own family?
Talia said: Notice to all: Do not mess with Lizzie's GDB. She will cut you.
Delirium said: Notice to all: do not mess with Lizzie's soap. She will cut you.

I'm not caught up with this whole thread yet. I like the idea of buyouts for assassins. I hate the idea of but outs for victims. Now there is a real disincentive to using the system. In stead of getting what you paid for you've now alerted someone. Now they can come back at you. Now they're alert that you're out to get them. (And really we can usually figure out who our enemies are. We can narrow the field at least) so the person who contracted is in a worse position than when they started.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

And do you get your upfront fees back?
Years ago (2002? 04?) the guild would take money to kill someone then let them buy out of that contract. This always struck me as a crappy business practice. Sure you get paid twice for one job, but would ever want to use you a second time. After all you could have people not dead for free.
Varak:You tell the mangy, pointy-eared gortok, in sirihish: "What, girl? You say the sorceror-king has fallen down the well?"
Ghardoan:A pitiful voice rises from the well below, "I've fallen and I can't get up..."

Quote from: HavokBlue on September 26, 2013, 06:47:51 PM
One more thing that comes to mind:

If the agent generally has no idea who the artist is, is the Templar in the deal responsible for negotiating the artists cost? Will there be a system in place to ensure that more reputable successful shadow artists are getting rewarded more for their work?

Yes to both.
Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 08:17:36 PMPaint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.



Quote from: Jherlen on September 26, 2013, 06:58:46 PM
Since the system is double-blind, the broker has all the power in negotiating the cost and the artist. So depending who you're after and how the templar feels about it, you might get Nightshade Silentstrike the unparalleled assassin to do your contract for 200 sid (because he can't refuse anyway), or you might get charged 5000 sid for Amos the tall, muscular 0-day burglar. This is why it seems like the broker shouldn't be a political entity so that contracting agents can at least entertain an illusion of fairness and impartiality.

But again, that's an expectation that the templar is going to do that...when the rules are such that they won't, at least not at this time.

Quote from: Taven on September 26, 2013, 07:00:57 PM
Okay, so they can't refuse having a pet killed, but what about killing the shit out of whoever hurt their pet? It seems like a big risk, because even if a templar is forced to sit back and watch someone useful to them die... Are there really going to be no repercussions for the person who contracted the hit? Even if you hire a templar other then the one who's favorite it was, that's no guarantee that the templar whose favorite just died wouldn't find out. They're templars with more means then the average Amos.

Yes, that does seem like a big risk.  I imagine we could make it so that targeting a partisan of someone requires equal or greater social status of that patron, then?
Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 08:17:36 PMPaint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Quote from: HavokBlue on September 26, 2013, 07:14:02 PM
My point applies to things beyond assassination though. If I want to hire a shadow artist to steal Talia's diamond necklace, how do I negotiate for a better artist if I don't know what artist I'm hiring? If I pay the Templar 3000 coins, what guarantee do I have that he isn't going to go set Amos the Day One Burglar on the job? If I'm a 30-Days-Played Burglar and I'm getting contracted to steal things for 200 coins, how do I know the Templar isn't pocketing another 2800? What is my motivation to operate within the system if I'm proficient enough to operate outside it without being caught AND with the power to negotiate my own fees?

On the templar side of things, we are working on docs for minimum standards.  You would be surprised in a very "lol are you SERIOUS, those were the minimum standards before?"

Things that affect the price:
--difficulty of the task
--skill requirements (i.e., you need someone that can break and enter)
--special requests (you want the body found, you want something left arranged in a certain way, you expect some other strange thing)

Generally we'd like to see tasks meet a certain standard of payment, and some of that might be public...depending on the difficulty/special factors it raises from there.
Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 08:17:36 PMPaint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Quote from: Taven on September 26, 2013, 07:15:19 PM
The reason that assassination is being focused on so much is that when killing people happens that things reach a level where the system might not work. I've got a lot of faith that the templars can broker other people's murders, but nobody likes to have to kill their own dudes. Unless you make some sort of rule like "Templars cannot look into assassinations of their own dudes if it was a contract, or terrible things happen to them", then that could work--if the citizens all also knew about it.

If it's handled well, this might be a good provision to add in, we'll need to look it over.  You're right, the areas where it might not work need to be reviewed very carefully before implementation.
Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 08:17:36 PMPaint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Quote from: Kryos on September 26, 2013, 07:18:16 PM
I hate to use one liners, so I'll expand, after, but "Welcome to Armageddon."

If you're a registered artist, the reality of your life is that anyone you might hold dear may one day be under your knife.  And that feels particularly right for this game, doesn't it?

And on the other side of things, this is exactly what we had in mind when considering this system.  If you are going to become a registered artist to kill people that other people want dead...you'd best be careful with who you befriend or make relationships with, lest you end up having to kill them.  Unless you're the kind of sociopath that wants to do that...in which case, have at it.

Quote from: LauraMars on September 26, 2013, 07:19:04 PM
Anyway to switch topics slightly, let's be hypothetical some more and say the following happens:

There's 3 Shadow Artist pcs registered in the city - one of them happens to be an accomplished assassin, say a Journeyman Shadow Artist. The other two are thief and/or spy types who won't do wet work.  For an unrelated reason, Chosen Lord Winrothol is furious with Journeyman Assassasin because her cover story is that she's the bard of his political rival and she wrote a mean song about him.  He goes to his local templar and takes out a contract on her TO KILL HER because he's the laughingstock of the city now and is too dumb to know how to deal with it any other way.

What happens?

Does the templar, not being able to refuse a contract:

a) Tell one of the two thiefly types to kill the assassin, even though it's not their specialty
b) Arrest and disappear the assassin for being so politically clumsy
c) Inform Winrothol that shadow artists are immune to contracts (are they?) and blow Journeyman Assassin's cover
d) Comic fourth option ("For your final contract, you must KILL YOURSELF")

?


A:  really couldn't send people that aren't "killers" to kill someone, that'd be a problem for the agent (expecting good work) and the templar (expecting to have work done properly) and the "non-killing artist" (expecting to do burglary things).
B:  I don't follow this one, I don't think this would quite be the case, no.
C:  Shadow artists aren't immune from contracts.
D:  That would be hilarious if it was a contract worded poorly on the part of the Winrothol Lord.  "You said you wanted to see his body decorating the floor before you; well, you didn't say it had to be dead."  Pay the artist with the money from the dumb Chosen Lord.

This system relies on having active people registered that are interested in doing work in their field (as well as active players interested in using all sorts of artists to score political points).  If there's no one that can do a job, it needs to wait until there is someone to do it.
Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 08:17:36 PMPaint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

I think some of you are making very wrong interpretations of what being a shadow artist means, and of what the templarate embodies and practices.

The amount of citizens of Tuluk numbers in the hundreds of thousands. The number of templars is somewhere between two hundred and three hundred. There is going to be multiple artists per templar. Outside any possible effects on being effective, a Templar has no reason to care about the wellbeing of their assets; they are replaceable and very much beneath even the greenest of templars.

Master shadow artists, perhaps, are the exception to this rule; you'd rather see them alive, I'm fairly sure. But then, consider what kind of a place Tuluk is. Tuluk is a city-state where the armed forces are lead by direct delegates of an immortal sorceror-king, fielding soldiers such as religiously fanatic elite slaves and immensely loyal legionnaires whose practices I cannot detail, but who are very much immensely loyal as well. Novice or journeyman shadow artists aside, if a master shadow assassin is not comparable in loyalty to a templar, fanatic or officer, they are not cut out to be the epitome of artistry. If, by the time you're a master shadow artist, you hold things in more value than the orders you receive, you aren't a good master shadow artist.

Also consider the whole situation of 'what if person X wants to off templar partisan Y.' Firstly, assassinations aren't your everyday occurence; I'm imagining they'd cost a whole lot more than things like rumors spread, people roughened up or items planted/stolen. Now consider that, though it may be secret that said partisan is a shadow artist, said person still is a templar's affiliate. The money to afford such an operation would be well above what any mere commoner would realistically be able to pay*, and no templar would choose a partisan commoner's wellbeing over that of such a rich person's. Secondly, consider that, since being a partisan is a supposedly prestigious job, a Templar should be able to find a dozen people to replace their now-lost pet and fund them well with the contract's money even if their affiliate ends up dead. Between commoners being far, far below templars, commoners being utterly and entirely displosable, and the amount of money and social class that such money requires to attain, contracts on templar pets being manufactured is nothing more than a passing nuisance.
Quote
You take the last bite of your scooby snack.
This tastes like ordinary meat.
There is nothing left now.

I'm sorry, but I don't see this as any sort of good change.

It puts even more power into the hands of Templars (especially new Templars) of questionable integrity, and does not provide incentive to choose non-killing options in any way.

Plus there are the problems such as Quirk mentions in his post - problems like overlapping time zones or lack thereof.

Also the no refusal thing is the part where I said to myself, "Yep, never going to be a licensed shadow artist ever."
Like a lithium flower, about to bloom.