Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Taven]

Yeah, so maybe that's a perk of having several artists under your employ?  You might have 3 Journeymen that won't ever go higher in rank because they want to stay with your House...but you can use all three on one job, ensuring success.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

My new question is: If a shadow artist can't refuse contracts, can they refuse to be raised in rank?

Because that would be a way to have some sort of choice. You don't want to kill your employer's dudes? Choose not to become a Master-level artist. Depending on the rules for who can take what job, and how high your lover/friends social statuses are, this might be a way to avoid killing them, too. Not as ideal as being able to refuse to take a contract, in my opinion, but potentially workable.

[Nyr]

How do we stop this happening?

The pretty obvious answer seems to be "talk to staff", at least to me.  If someone's not playing anymore, they're virtually around and can't be targeted.  This is an entirely OOC situation and I imagine it'd be easier to tell all involved "uh, the player of that PC's not playing.  So maybe this will need to be called off til they do return."  Virtually killing them would be unfair to the victim.  Storage would be unwarranted for the victim, I think, too.  Leave it at an OOC issue and I think it's fine.

Um. In my example, the target, Malik, was quite definitely playing. Plenty of other PCs are interacting with Malik, including the increasingly annoyed person who took out the contract.

The cited problem is that Amos and Malik have no playing time overlap, and it's liable to take some time to discover this. Possibly quite a long time. Having discovered this, the player of Amos can talk to staff, but - Malik's logging in regularly, what are they going to do? By the time the situation is resolved and Amos is given a free pass on this one and someone else is set on Malik's track, we might be RL months down the road, and any number of events may have happened since. Talking to staff takes time, and if it's not as clear-cut as "so-and-so is dead / not logging in", it's quite probable that the first request won't clear things up. It also seems like a burden for staff if they have to field a new request every time a target leaves the city or doesn't log in for a couple of weeks or is generally hard to find.

Oh, derp, I misread!

In that case, definitely should be a way to fix things because it is an OOC problem.

Besides this, it seems to me that if taking out a contract becomes "pay a large sum up front, and then your target might get hit a long time from now", people are going to cut out the middle man and make private, faster-acting arrangements. I strongly feel that there needs to be some easy way to write off a contract that cannot be completed within a reasonable timespan for OOC reasons (or IC reasons, such as a fleeing target) which leads to no worse than a slap on the wrist for the artist - even if it's just that there exists a time limit, and the artist reaching that time limit without success incurs a fine for their very discreet failure and is taken off the contract.

I agree, there needs to be a way to back out for OOC problems.  Time limits we talked about but left out for the purposes of freedom on the artist end, but you bring up a good point about the agent's end.

I think there remains a problem with templar oversight, though - even with very close OOC scrutiny, it may not be possible to be sure that a templar is deliberately setting a contract up to fail rather than just screwing up.

I'll be blunt about it...if that's a concern, it already is one and it's way worse now in perception than it is in reality (i.e., people already think templars are biased to their house of origin or that they deliberately screw up contracts, so how is this any different?)

[Nyr]

As an employer can you ask? Can you opt not to hire anyone who may have conflicting loyalties? Can you ask them to strip to check them for clues?

Do it if you want.  Monthly strip check to see who's a master and who's getting their throat cut by the boss for not telling the boss!

Yeah, so maybe that's a perk of having several artists under your employ?  You might have 3 Journeymen that won't ever go higher in rank because they want to stay with your House...but you can use all three on one job, ensuring success.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

My new question is: If a shadow artist can't refuse contracts, can they refuse to be raised in rank?

Yeah, I didn't make that clear but that was implied.  Or maybe just implied in my head.  Just like a bard could choose to NOT be a bard in rank (and thus stay with their house), an artist can choose to NOT become a master artist.  However, this probably would need some teeth...as in, if you refuse, you are never going to be a master artist.

[Taven]

Yeah, so maybe that's a perk of having several artists under your employ?  You might have 3 Journeymen that won't ever go higher in rank because they want to stay with your House...but you can use all three on one job, ensuring success.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

My new question is: If a shadow artist can't refuse contracts, can they refuse to be raised in rank?

Yeah, I didn't make that clear but that was implied.  Or maybe just implied in my head.  Just like a bard could choose to NOT be a bard in rank (and thus stay with their house), an artist can choose to NOT become a master artist.  However, this probably would need some teeth...as in, if you refuse, you are never going to be a master artist.

I think it was implied, but I may have skipped over the implication, since there's not yet (nor may there ever be) public documentation on how you go from rank-to-rank.

Would it have to be that you do it now or never? Because if I'm a shadow artist, and I adore that loveable noble from House X, and she goes and dies... I may not give a shit about her replacement or the new employees said replacement hires. Or if I'm worried about my mate, who's just some nobody hunter that I could be ordered to kill, I might not want to be a Master. But, oh hey, a tregil ate him. Since I know that I will never love anyone the way I love him, I may want to be a Master shadow artist in the future.

I guess it really depends if Master rank is something thrust upon you (in which case there should be some sort of penalty for refusing), or if it's something you seek (if I have to do X, Y, and Z to become a Master, I'll just never do Z, until I'm ready). I personally think that the latter case offers more flexibility, which is good.

[Taven]

I realize the above example might be silly, since a mid-level assassin could probably be hired to kill some hunter nobody, but pretend it makes sense for the sake of argument. You can mentally adjust it in your head for "oh, my mate is actually this that and the other thing, so I can't kill them now, but could be forced to later as a Master assassin". Or something. >.>

[Kryos]

I have grave concerns about partisans requiring the status of their patron in order to act against.  This means if Amos joins up with Faithful Lord Fatpants, he can basically screw all the rules regarding anyone who isn't a Templar and never face any consequences.  If that partisan in just Joe Hunter otherwise, that seems like quite an extreme immunity if Chosen Lady FooFoo can't even get rid of some out of line commoner.

Further, I'm curious if you intend to work more incentive into reasons to avoid murder as the contract option, especially for low ranking people.  Amos stole Jim's girlfriend seems far too petty a reason for Templars to act on some commoner's behalf.  Perhaps a line to draw on for who can actually request eliminations? (Sergeant + commoner ranks for instance)   This would mean you'd have to get your boss in line with your reasoning in order to bring the knife on someone.  

[Quirk]

Actually Rathustra hit on a fun idea of having a confession-booth style thing.  I never really thought of it being its own script-worthy event where someone goes in, writes on a board, then leaves, and it goes to staff, but...hmm...

Would that really get rid of the appearance of bias?  Maybe...but would it increase staff work?  Yep...we'd have to review these cases ourselves or sub it out to templar PCs, which would be defeating the purpose anyway.

You wouldn't need to review all the cases. The knowledge that some cases are reviewed and the poster's might be among them could be enough to influence behaviour, Panopticon-style.

[LauraMars]

I wonder how the non-lethal contracts will be accomplished.

If you're a maxxed burglar and a templar says "Your mission is to Deface Kadian Property" - and you sneak into their estate and trash the garden, will the imms help out and change the room description?  Or do you need to rely on coded drop descs and stuff that will vanish with the next reboot?

[Bluefae]

Furthermore, doesn't rejecting a contract compromise the solvency of the system?  Now, you can go and warn your friend.  They slip the next assassin, and the system fails.  Your reputation is ruined, and you're likely the new guest of honor at a half-giant hackfest.

     Yep.  Sounds like this generates the conflict us Care Bears typically dread, but others desire. 

     Seriously, though, I anticipate that Artists who open their mouths after declining a contract would rapidly find the "invisible hand" of Tuluki customs correcting them.

[ShaLeah]

Oh my God. I'm not even through the first page and already I'm [self edited].


1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.


2) How are these Templars supposed to know if the prospect is worthy? Set them to task BEFORE getting inked? Have them, egads, break their own laws?!?!? Jeepers!

3) Finding a Templar to take out a contract is like finding a frigid gypsy. Let's hope the new one order, under the Sun King, indivisible with the illusion of liberty and "justice" for all (unless the person you're trying/wanting to kill is the templar that killed your sister, in which case, you're shit out of luck) proves better for those people having a hard time getting in touch with an agent.
Are we forbidding Templars from killing anyone then? Course we're not.

4) Failure to complete a contract appropriately may result in punishment ranging from simple fines to revocation of registration to outright disappearance. - So are we now putting on a time limit on contracts? What happens if your target doesn't log in for a month (cause the player is fighting a war in Afghanistan) is staff gonna be telling these templar players/artist players/contracting players that the OOC reasons are valid and you can't kill off the one who failed?


I'm gonna stop and take a step back, maybe read everything, smoke a joint/have a drink/murder a puppy and think about this so much. All I keep thinking is, all the more reason to not play in Tuluk, and I really wanna. I really do.

[Jherlen]

What you're asking for is the ability to perform like an independent, unaffiliated contract killer with the full rights to negotiate contracts while simultaneously working within the system and retaining all of the privilege and status of that institution.  You want your cake and you wanna eat it, too, as the saying goes.  I can't blame you for that, but it doesn't make you right.  An oppressive city-state run by a god-King dictator is an oppressive city-state;  there is no democracy, or even illusion of choice.
<snip>
If you wanna be that guy, do it, but outside of the system.

Yeah, I guess I am asking for independent contractors who want to work but don't want to be more-or-less sworn agents of the Templarate to be viable. For a thriving criminal community that has more than one dimension, I think they need to be. The thing is, what I'm asking for is already in the system today. I'm worried that by making Shadow Artistry the only viable way to be a sneaky lawful criminal in Tuluk, you're actually shutting out many other types of characters who would want to play that role, and work within a lawful system like they can today, but with different motivations.

You seem to want to play somebody who's cold-blooded and totally devoted to whatever jobs the templars would throw at you, and that's a cool role too, but should that really be the only role available for lawful crime in Tuluk? Let's be honest, you can play that same cold-blooded devotee in Allanak, with a templar's backing, and it'd be pretty much the same in practice. Tuluk has just set up more formality around it, but hasn't expanded the area of the game. I'd like to see it expanded.

Right now, we have two issues that seem to plague Tuluk.  It's not terrible, it's not horrible, it is just kinda "how it has been."  I call these issues Reluctant Artist Syndrome and Loyal Artist Syndrome.

RAS -- you dabble in the art but you're not committed, so you may do something every now and then but that's it.
LAS -- you work just for one person and that's it.  All work has to be approved through them.

Put both together and what happens when someone who is not employing an artist directly wants something done?  They can't get it done because no PC artists are available, whether due to reluctance or loyalty.

I think this would fix that, at least, and make it a system that works for those that want artists on their payroll/partisanship (they have the perks of being able to choose their own guy and even take a cut from what their guy gets paid for work, if that's part of their arrangement) and those that want artists to do work without being fingered overtly as the contractor (they can indirectly use someone else's artist already being trained/patron'd up, and appropriately, the patron would get a cut of the proceeds).

You've identified part of the problem, but I think your solution is just going to create more issues of its own. The way to encourage more lawful criminals in Tuluk is not necessarily to force those criminals to do jobs for templars. It's perhaps encouraging more ways for them to find jobs - the templars could have a hand in that, but putting all the coins in their basket raises issues that have come up across this thread.

Since the system is double-blind, the broker has all the power in negotiating the cost and the artist. So depending who you're after and how the templar feels about it, you might get Nightshade Silentstrike the unparalleled assassin to do your contract for 200 sid (because he can't refuse anyway), or you might get charged 5000 sid for Amos the tall, muscular 0-day burglar. This is why it seems like the broker shouldn't be a political entity so that contracting agents can at least entertain an illusion of fairness and impartiality.

But again, that's an expectation that the templar is going to do that...when the rules are such that they won't, at least not at this time.

Nyr, you're talking about a lot of these problems being fixed because people will "have faith in the system", "templars have rules they will follow", "templar's won't/shouldn't do this or that", etc. Many of these scenarios are plausible ICly, under the system we've seen so far. It's a shame to shut them down because of documentorial fiat. What we haven't seen is a compelling incentive why templars will want to enforce the system fairly. What do they, personally, gain from it? Or are we admitting Tuluk is a culture where templars aren't motivated by personal/political gain?

Part of what makes a templar scary is that by and large, there are no rules around what they can do to the average Commoner Amos. They have to face consequences for their actions, but I think it's a huge loss if we tell people that they can just trust templars won't screw them over because they have this abstract system defined by documentation to uphold. I want templars to be corrupt and screw people over. I want them to have internal struggles and fight each other and try desperately to foil each other's plans, ruin their contracts, etc. That all goes out the window if we start placing constraints that they have to adjucate things like this fairly. Words like "fair" and "rules" and words like "templar" should not go hand in hand.

Tuluk needs a system where crime can be considered lawful, where PCs are able to find other PCs to commit crimes for them, where lawful-criminal PCs can have incentive to work within the system while still being self-serving, and where the templarate can tacitly approve of such activities without templars needing to get their hands dirty administering all of them, at the expense of their own interests. I think that's achievable! I just think this system needs to be iterated on to get there. I think the gaps can be closed by removing some of the rigid "this always is how things go" language, rather than by demanding the IC and OOC trust of people involved that the system will Always Work.

[Nyr]

Actually Rathustra hit on a fun idea of having a confession-booth style thing.  I never really thought of it being its own script-worthy event where someone goes in, writes on a board, then leaves, and it goes to staff, but...hmm...

Would that really get rid of the appearance of bias?  Maybe...but would it increase staff work?  Yep...we'd have to review these cases ourselves or sub it out to templar PCs, which would be defeating the purpose anyway.

You wouldn't need to review all the cases. The knowledge that some cases are reviewed and the poster's might be among them could be enough to influence behaviour, Panopticon-style.

But we already have the ability to review all contracts now, and we do.  We don't step in and manage it directly.  We're aware of what's going on.

I wonder how the non-lethal contracts will be accomplished.

If you're a maxxed burglar and a templar says "Your mission is to Deface Kadian Property" - and you sneak into their estate and trash the garden, will the imms help out and change the room description?  Or do you need to rely on coded drop descs and stuff that will vanish with the next reboot?

This sounds like an area in which we can help out.  Plus, breaking into the estate might be better done with staff assistance anyway so that the world can be animated properly.

[Riev]

Concerning the idea that an Artist may not be on at the same time as a Victim, should it be considered more... good form if an Artist is to be given a contract, to put it immediately into a Character Report (as I'm sure the Templar would have) just so staff can review it? Not that it'd be a REQUIREMENT per se, but if you can't complete a contract a RL month later and you expect staff to know why, it'd be foolhardy.


Which runs into the issue that you're sort of an "independent" that now has to inform staff of all your kills, which could get .... time consuming. If you're X-D.

[Ouroboros]

Just like an artist would have to do their job, a templar would have to do their job--which means making the system work.  Sure, they might HAVE IC biases.  Acting on them by manipulating this brokerage system would be foolhardy.  Acting on those in other ways sounds more reasonable.

Foolhardy it might be, but far beyond the realm of impossibility. Templars are frequently corrupt, in-character, I think this is something we can share in an open discussion that involves them. It goes back to absolute power corrupting absolutely. By documentation and public perception they might be paragons of virtue, but both from an IC and OOC standpoint that myth can't be made real. A Templar would have to be played a robot in order to remain unbias, be that IC or OOC, as a player or staff. The difference is in the South this is commonly accepted, whereas in the North it hides behind a veneer of virtue.

Justifying biased actions through convenient ruses is one of the things Templars excel in, especially in the North where there's a facade to be maintained. I hardly think it's a stretch to consider the very plausible abuse of this system by a Templar, when they only have staff to answer to and can devise IC justifications for their actions on a whim. That's also not something I feel can or will change, but I do think it can be taken under consideration when trying to fool-proof a new system being implemented.

We brought this up in the first place and here's why we disagreed on it... [snip] First, it'd need at LEAST a templar to do the contract in the first place. Second, if a templar in Tuluk wants another templar in Tuluk dead, that sounds like a plot ripe for some discussion with staff so we can figure out whether this makes sense or not.

A contract of any sort, be it assassination, theft, or otherwise, would certainly need that. And I included that in my statement as well, as presented. I'm not arguing that anyone other than a Templar should be able to put out a contract on another Templar, but I am arguing that at least that much should be open to the system. Templars are above the law, but should not be above the political machinations of other Templars. It's the only thing that can keep them in check, from an IC standpoint, outside of the long arm of staff.

As for a Templar wishing another Templar dead, or stolen from, or defamed in other ways... It's clearly not beyond the realm of possibility. It never has been, and recent public events clearly illustrate it remains to be the case. Should it be common or frequent? Of course not. But the possibility should be there, and when we're writing things in stone it's a good time to consider that.

Maybe it can be loosened up in the future, but as stated above and earlier, making it fast and loose now might spell trouble for those wishing to find the holes in the system that were NOT intended to be there.

I think we're simply coming at it from opposite ends. I see the current system in place, the one in place for the past decade or so, as fast and loose and full of loop holes. Abuse of power has occurred repeatedly in many player's eyes, over the years. It's not a topic I'd like to open because I know where it will lead. But my point here is, making Templars liable for their actions and susceptible to the very system they're sworn to uphold, is a small step towards ensuring that abuse is minimized to some extent. The only reason to keep this as it stands, is to continue to protect certain roles from being held accountable to their actions and the environment around them. In those instances, when those roles become so crucial that losing the character would have game-wide effects, the roles should be in the hands of NPC and not PC. No sponsored role should ever be offered to players if the game or staff can't adjust to their loss. And unfortunately such roles have and still do exist in the game.

Actually Rathustra hit on a fun idea of having a confession-booth style thing.  I never really thought of it being its own script-worthy event where someone goes in, writes on a board, then leaves, and it goes to staff, but...hmm... Would that really get rid of the appearance of bias?  Maybe...but would it increase staff work?  Yep...we'd have to review these cases ourselves or sub it out to templar PCs, which would be defeating the purpose anyway.

I think Rathustra's idea is spot on, minus that being subb'ed to Templars of course. Reviewing contracts is already bound to happen since each contract would likely find itself in several player reports, be it from the artist, the agent, or the broker in question. So being "subjected" let's say to these is unavoidable. Which only leaves the simple act of any one of our talented storytellers to animate an NPC and Way or meet the artist in question.

And while I agree that it would increase the workload on staff to some extent, keeping in mind obviously that contracts won't be set forth on a daily basis by every player in the north... I can live with that, as should any staff member who's made the decision to volunteer their time. Ensuring a fair system is in play is one of the key aspects staff is here for, and why they're offered the power to act as judge, jury and executioners when players misstep. Personally I would have no issues with a contract taking a few days longer to see it executed, if I knew that bias was limited through this system. If nothing else, this system would actually ensure even an off-peak player has a chance at setting forth or taking on a contract, without having to track down whatever the current Templar PCs might be.

[Taven]

1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

I actually like that social status is a factor. It makes the Tuluki caste system, patronage, and a number of other things more relevant which should be relevant. Tuluk is very much about social standing, and the proposed system reinforces that. I don't know what to say about the fact that Templars can't be targets, however.

2) How are these Templars supposed to know if the prospect is worthy? Set them to task BEFORE getting inked? Have them, egads, break their own laws?!?!? Jeepers!

Well, I'd assume you'd ink them, give them easy jobs to start with, and then if they fail horribly you take back the ink. Since the templars decide who gets what job anyway, it's not like you're immediately trusting them with super assassin plans (or super not-assassin plans).

3) Finding a Templar to take out a contract is like finding a frigid gypsy. Let's hope the new one order, under the Sun King, indivisible with the illusion of liberty and "justice" for all (unless the person you're trying/wanting to kill is the templar that killed your sister, in which case, you're shit out of luck) proves better for those people having a hard time getting in touch with an agent.
Are we forbidding Templars from killing anyone then? Course we're not.

Uh... So the complaint here is not being able to find templars? Or the complaint is that you can't kill templars? The first is probably not as much of an issue as you think, and as to the second, you already mentioned it.

4) Failure to complete a contract appropriately may result in punishment ranging from simple fines to revocation of registration to outright disappearance. - So are we now putting on a time limit on contracts? What happens if your target doesn't log in for a month (cause the player is fighting a war in Afghanistan) is staff gonna be telling these templar players/artist players/contracting players that the OOC reasons are valid and you can't kill off the one who failed?

Staff has already said that allowances need to be made for OOC issues.

[Jherlen]

+1 to what Ouroboros just said above.

[janeshephard]

Wrapping up
Talia has gone missing. It's been several weeks. The Chosen Lord has a private meeting with a Faithful Lord/Lady and mentions which contracts were fulfilled that month. He never discloses the names of who did what.

So the templarate doesn't know what's going on?

Yes. I'd rather they were kept in the dark but only stepped in to check licensing when they suspect the rules were broken, than to make them always agree to contracts. I'll be frank. I think you'll see a steep drop in artistry if they get turned into automaton that must accept every contract their offered. I think you'll see Templars avoiding contact with people who keep asking for contracts that don't suit His Faithful's political agenda.

I understand you don't like my idea, and I think it's not perfect, but it solves some of the problems in your proposed system.

[Nyr]

1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

Anyone socially above you is up for grabs if they're not a templar.  You just have to get a patron that is equal or greater in rank to that person to put in the contract for you (this expands the patron/partisan relationship in Tuluk).   What stopping the patron from snitching?  Well, you'd probably want to go to a patron willing to actually agree with you on this point.  As the docs for the agents lay out, it's a good idea to approach an agent with something juicy enough that they're willing to do this on your behalf.  Culturally, there would probably be a "snitching is not good" mentality in Tuluk, but if you're not smart enough to go to a person that bills themselves as a "neutral party" willing to accept all takers on contracts...and you instead go to a patron that is buddy-buddy with your intended target...I'd say you deserve to be snitched on in that case.

(As a side note, this brings up the possibility of the permanent noble agent patron.  Nobles trump pretty much everyone.  Suck up to that noble and they can get you a contract on pretty much everyone.  Nobles could use that to their advantage, thereby again increasing the view of a noble in the eyes of Tulukis.)

If you want to go after a templar?  I've got news for you, and it might not be a newsflash or anything...but if you want to kill a templar, why do you care about the rules of this system?  You're already bucking the "rules" by wanting a templar dead; how you choose to make that happen at that point probably isn't going to consider the intricacies of Tuluk's shadow artist system.  Just like people that kill templars as Allanaki citizens typically don't get to hang out in Allanak afterwards, you can probably bet on the fact that killing a templar as a Tuluki citizen isn't going to typically leave you with a city retirement.

2) How are these Templars supposed to know if the prospect is worthy? Set them to task BEFORE getting inked? Have them, egads, break their own laws?!?!? Jeepers!

No, it's basically a way for templars to have an out if a person wants to be an artist but you know they are a blabbermouth, too newbie-ish, or otherwise unfit for the job in that regard.

3) Finding a Templar to take out a contract is like finding a frigid gypsy. Let's hope the new one order, under the Sun King, indivisible with the illusion of liberty and "justice" for all (unless the person you're trying/wanting to kill is the templar that killed your sister, in which case, you're shit out of luck) proves better for those people having a hard time getting in touch with an agent.

I've gone over this somewhere else, but redundancy is one of the large reasons we had OOC reasons for removing both Orders:  because you had to go to a templar in one order to get contracts done.  Now you go to any templar.  We have 3 PC templars.  That triples your chances.

Are we forbidding Templars from killing anyone then? Course we're not.

Not sure what this has to do with this system, but no, we are not forbidding templars from killing anyone.

4) Failure to complete a contract appropriately may result in punishment ranging from simple fines to revocation of registration to outright disappearance. - So are we now putting on a time limit on contracts? What happens if your target doesn't log in for a month (cause the player is fighting a war in Afghanistan) is staff gonna be telling these templar players/artist players/contracting players that the OOC reasons are valid and you can't kill off the one who failed?

...yes?  I mentioned that above, if there's an OOC concern, it can be dealt with by staff, there's no reason to panic.

I'm gonna stop and take a step back, maybe read everything, smoke a joint/have a drink/murder a puppy and think about this so much. All I keep thinking is, all the more reason to not play in Tuluk, and I really wanna. I really do.

You're in luck, most of your concerns with this system are handled already.

[ShaLeah]

1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

I actually like that social status is a factor. It makes the Tuluki caste system, patronage, and a number of other things more relevant which should be relevant. Tuluk is very much about social standing, and the proposed system reinforces that. I don't know what to say about the fact that Templars can't be targets, however.

2) How are these Templars supposed to know if the prospect is worthy? Set them to task BEFORE getting inked? Have them, egads, break their own laws?!?!? Jeepers!

Well, I'd assume you'd ink them, give them easy jobs to start with, and then if they fail horribly you take back the ink. Since the templars decide who gets what job anyway, it's not like you're immediately trusting them with super assassin plans (or super not-assassin plans).

3) Finding a Templar to take out a contract is like finding a frigid gypsy. Let's hope the new one order, under the Sun King, indivisible with the illusion of liberty and "justice" for all (unless the person you're trying/wanting to kill is the templar that killed your sister, in which case, you're shit out of luck) proves better for those people having a hard time getting in touch with an agent.
Are we forbidding Templars from killing anyone then? Course we're not.

Uh... So the complaint here is not being able to find templars? Or the complaint is that you can't kill templars? The first is probably not as much of an issue as you think, and as to the second, you already mentioned it.

4) Failure to complete a contract appropriately may result in punishment ranging from simple fines to revocation of registration to outright disappearance. - So are we now putting on a time limit on contracts? What happens if your target doesn't log in for a month (cause the player is fighting a war in Afghanistan) is staff gonna be telling these templar players/artist players/contracting players that the OOC reasons are valid and you can't kill off the one who failed?

Staff has already said that allowances need to be made for OOC issues.

1) Think of social climbing. You should be able to kill -anyone- above you for gain and status. Period. Anyone in your way is a target. I should be able to take a contract out on CL Winrothol to please my CL Dasari and gain favor, status, promotion. They should cost more, way more if they are above you, but NO ONE should be beyond the reach of a supposed "shadow artist". Including Templars.

2) They're supposed to be deemed worthy before they're inked. "Should the prospective artist be deemed worthy of handling these duties, the artist will be given a tattoo that signifies that they are a registered shadow artist." - Anyone should be able to register, the inking should either come WHEN the person is deemed worthy OR you shouldn't be inked at all. What newb shadowy artistry person isn't gonna suck? Isn't gonna be seen? Maybe they're implying that you shouldn't register until you've twinked out all your skills? I dunno. I only know it doesn't make sense for me to say I'm an ubersassin, register for it when my skills are for shit and then be penalized with death when I suck at my job. Makes for a difficult time to get any good and really REQUIRE a patron which, I'll have to leave at some point if I'm good anyway.

3) It's both, especially since you have to basically get another templar to patron you for you to be able to kill the one you wanna kill anyway... get it?

[williamson]

Oh my God. I'm not even through the first page and already I'm [self edited].


1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

You can still put a contract on a Tuluki templar. However, you'll need to find an assassin that's willing to work outside the licensed system or pay one a huge amount of money to break the rules. Obviously, there will still be assassins located in Luir's, Allanak, and Red Storm and they'll be less likely to worry too much about breaking the Tuluki system's rules.

[ShaLeah]

Oh my God. I'm not even through the first page and already I'm [self edited].


1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

You can still put a contract on a Tuluki templar. However, you'll need to find an assassin that's willing to work outside the licensed system or pay one a huge amount of money to break the rules. Obviously, there will still be assassins located in Luir's, Allanak, and Red Storm and they'll be less likely to worry too much about breaking the Tuluki system's rules.

That's my point. I don't think it's very Tuluki like to hire outside your homeland. I'd think it as a major act of treason, and isn't it all about appearances?

[Taven]

1) Think of social climbing. You should be able to kill -anyone- above you for gain and status. Period. Anyone in your way is a target. I should be able to take a contract out on CL Winrothol to please my CL Dasari and gain favor, status, promotion. They should cost more, way more if they are above you, but NO ONE should be beyond the reach of a supposed "shadow artist". Including Templars.

Uh... But you can. Just have your CL Winrothol get the contract for you. If you're their partisan, they can hire you to do the killing (via templars), and reward you gloriously when you succeed.

Why should being a Shadow Artist make you have the right to kill everyone? Nobody IS above the reach of a shadow artist (excepting templars) IF someone with social standing hires said artist against someone. Again; social standing counts for a lot in Tuluk. The more respected you are and more position you have, the harder it should be to kill you. This system allows for that by who can take out contracts.

2) They're supposed to be deemed worthy before they're inked. "Should the prospective artist be deemed worthy of handling these duties, the artist will be given a tattoo that signifies that they are a registered shadow artist." - Anyone should be able to register, the inking should either come WHEN the person is deemed worthy OR you shouldn't be inked at all. What newb shadowy artistry person isn't gonna suck? Isn't gonna be seen? Maybe they're implying that you shouldn't register until you've twinked out all your skills? I dunno. I only know it doesn't make sense for me to say I'm an ubersassin, register for it when my skills are for shit and then be penalized with death when I suck at my job. Makes for a difficult time to get any good and really REQUIRE a patron which, I'll have to leave at some point if I'm good anyway.

Nyr addressed this. It's also somewhat addressed that a patron can hire you to claim you as their own for awhile (though there have also been some stated concerns if someone becomes a Master artist). Basically, their incentive to train your newbie self is getting to keep your services when you get better.

3) It's both, especially since you have to basically get another templar to patron you for you to be able to kill the one you wanna kill anyway... get it?

It's both of what? Right now, templars can't be killed. If you want to have someone killed, a templar cannot reject you unless it's for social standing issues. Which, as mentioned, have ways to address that--ways intended to build plot, it seems like.

[Wish]

Oh my God. I'm not even through the first page and already I'm [self edited].


1) I really hate that you can't put a hit out on someone socially above you or Templars.  Like hate it. It means that in the land of the Sun King you'll have to break his precious law to do so, which means you'll never get a shadow artist -to- do it, which means you'll have to resort to finding people outside Tuluk to do your dirty work. How realistic is that for a notoriously racist, heretic society? To have to go elsewhere? What's to stop that"patron" from snitching on the one who wants to kill the higher caste victim. For shame! So I, as a shadow artist am gonna go with my "patron" and say "Yes, Lady Templar, I'd like to purchase a contract on YOU. Oh yes, thank you for the fast approval! Do pick someone who'll actually -get- you, or do I take my half back now?". Oh no, cause "Templars are exempt as contracted targets.". This is hugely unfair to the game world and it makes templars as untouchable as fucking Tek and Utep themselves in Tuluk. Ridiculous.

You can still put a contract on a Tuluki templar. However, you'll need to find an assassin that's willing to work outside the licensed system or pay one a huge amount of money to break the rules. Obviously, there will still be assassins located in Luir's, Allanak, and Red Storm and they'll be less likely to worry too much about breaking the Tuluki system's rules.

That's my point. I don't think it's very Tuluki like to hire outside your homeland. I'd think it as a major act of treason, and isn't it all about appearances?

Isn't it already a major act of treason to WANT TO KILL A TEMPLAR?

I mean if I'm a respected member of northern society and I wanted to kill a Faithful, I probably don't give a flying fuck about what Muk Utep thinks of me and give way more fucks about doing the job quickly and efficiently and hoping it never leads back to me.

If I'm not a respected member of northern society and I want to kill a Faithful, I still give zero fucks about Muk Utep and am probably planning on leaving town once the job's been done.

[Jherlen]

I agree that templars ought to be off limits to the "lawful" formal criminal system in whatever shape it takes. The social caste part of who can take a hit out on who, I think, is pretty solid.

Now, should anything stop a templar from trying to recruit a really good shadow artist assassin "off the books" to take out a rival templar? No, but of course those two are fully aware of the consequences for them both if they get caught.

[Taven]

Now, should anything stop a templar from trying to recruit a really good shadow artist assassin "off the books" to take out a rival templar? No, but of course those two are fully aware of the consequences for them both if they get caught.

On the other hand...

I think generally, it's a lot easier to uncover murder plots in Tuluk then it is in Allanak. In Allanak, I'd have more faith that as a noble (or templar) I could arrange a templar's death and get away with it then in Tuluk. In Tuluk... I don't feel like it's an option you can really even consider. The chance of being found out seems drastically higher.

I think it's that way as-is though, I don't think the new docs change that at all.