Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Nyr]

I guess that's when you have to make a choice.  Do the job, or pack up the kids and run away to Red Storm.  And it isn't against the rules to choose the latter, as far as I know.

Yep, you could do either one of those.

A few suggestions, thoughts, concerns, and commentaries.

One.

Would it be possible to create a board somewhere, in some ritual place. That board will be flagged as unreadable by everyone, except the templarate. But it would be possible to post there by 'anyone'. The first thing a person does to set up the contract is going to that board and posting in it something simple. "<Insert title> Amos seeks the Templarate's help, in order to hire a shadowrunner ... I mean, shadow artist, for a job on <insert victim's name here>.   There might be some default phrases, or it can be detailed, doesn't matter.

The reasoning for this is simple. This board will be read by 'all' templars. And if the templar chooses to 'lose' the paperwork. His rival templars will snitch him/her out in a heart beat. Add some massive punishment to a Templar who got found out to be cheating the system, and we're good to go.

This is similar to what is in place now for templars.  The templars do NOT cheat the system under this system, they must work through it and if they don't like it or there is some special case that deserves consideration, it must be brought before staff or the group of the templarate that is directly over this system.

Two.

Would it be possible to create some kind of a ritualized conversation that happens between a Templar and the Shadowrunner (Come on, Nyr. Admiiiit it ... you've been playing shadowrunner). Arghem. Anyway. A ritualized conversation that would briefly and vaguely describe the type of a job, certain caveats, and the danger level of the victim.

Templar: You are called upon a Task.
Shadow: I listen to the call.
Templar: The task of great cunning and stealth, no trace, no sight in your wake.  (The job is a stealthy one. No playing on the public, no need to reveal yourself or be caught).  The task is of great artistry, every move fluid, His city in awe of your performance (The job has showmanship elements. Possibilities/requirements of being revealed, etc). The task of great complexity, cunning and wisdom will be your guides. (It's up to the artist, how it will be done. The job is a hard one and not standard. Pay Hike)
Shadow: I hear the call.
Templar: The hunt is for the vestric/tandu/duskhorn/raptor/gwoshi/kryl/bahamet (The difficulty of the victim. It's very vague and really depends on the judgement of the templar.)
Shadow: I hear the call.
Templar: The hunt elusive, but sometimes seen in early days/late days. (This is iffy, but basically ... the victim plays early in the day/ middle of the day/late in the day? I dont like it myself ,but there MUST be SOMETHING like that in consideration somehow. Sometimes people simply can NOT meet another person due to IRL time belts difference).
Shadow: I heard the call and I am ready.

At any point until the Shadow Runner says he is ready, he can refuse the contract. There might be some ritual phrase like "I see another prey and I am drawn to it". Or whatever really. The point is, the shadow runner refuses the task without hearing any details. A shadow runner may for example prefer stealth work, or prefer loud work, or he hears the word 'kryl/bahamet', and realizes the Templar's trying to freaking kill him.

This 'could' affect the speed with which a shadowrunner can progress from rank to rank. But 'not' overly so, because ... sometimes it's just something a person is not great at and the Templar who approached him failed to see this. Obviously, normally the Templars should be wiser and pick the shadowrunners with appropriate skills. But sometimes, they will not have that much of a selection.

I also think that it should be possible for a shadow artist to refuse the contract even after hearing the job, but with massive punishments. And not in terms of coin either, but something like ... a year's exile. Or an indefinite exile until he performs an act of great valour in an enemy city. Or perhaps the punishment of BOREDOM, where he is to go to the territory that requires watch and spends a year there, reporting in. Which I guess could be linked to exile. Basically something that seriously benefits Tuluk, and prevents the artist from refusing it willy nilly. Fines will not do it. Slicing off arms and tongues would be wasteful. If it was possible to do something like for example, block the artist's ability to use the way until his exile is over, it would also be kinda cool.

It might also be possible to make the rejection ability vary by the rank. An apprentice can refuse a contract during the rituyal. A Journeyman can refuse the contract during and after details are given out. Master can not refuse a contract 'period'. But the Templar suffers massive punishments should he/she get a Master artist killed by giving him a job that's obviously unsuited to him/her. Wasting City Resources, that is!

...okay, this is definitely a neat idea.  Fleshing out the culture of the artists sounds great.  I worry a bit about the entirety of it being too complicated to follow even with documentation, but I like the idea of it and we will consider more along those lines.

Some Scenarios.

Training backstab can be very awkward sometimes. Especially for Celves who dont leave the city. Before, Akai Sjir, or whomever could explore Undertuluk and 'defend' themselves, or whatever. Now, it's different. Would it potentially be possible for a patron to make a 'broad' contract for his partisan?  Like say ... A patron wishes to create some sense of danger in the warrens, making their populace choose to cling and respect the legionnaires more. So he hires his partisan through the Templarate, to simulate that danger. This may involve ... a lot of murders, actually.

Could be interesting...

Some assassinations. (90% of them in my case), are done by more then one person. Sometimes people dont know I exist and they're helping me kill the dude, sometimes they're following my instructions. I find that type of killing to be very fun, since it involves a great many people in little or large ways. Even if it's as simple as hiring a whore to lure a dude into an apartment.

But your type of 'no talking about a contract' kind of prevents this, doesnt it? Every artist seems to require to be a loner, since these things should not be talked about. And if you impliment a system where a shadow runner who gets the job, goes right back to the Templar to hire a 'whore' shadow runner, and 'flasher' shadow runner, and 'pickpocket' shadow runner. Suddenly, something that a group of 3-4 vagrants could scheme, discuss, and carry out in a single day evening, turns into a 7 day ordeal, where the Templar is seeking all these people out.

That's an interesting point to bring up, but I think we can make room in the system so that if an artist needs help, they can ask the templarate to sub out parts of it to other artists for assistance (and if assisting, well, they do have to talk to each other, no?).

[Nyr]

1. 

Similarly, the templarate is brokering the contract to the artist, and will not punish an artist for fulfilling a contract as given. If a contract does call for more unusual practices, the templar providing the contract will go over it carefully with the artist to be sure they understand how it works. There is art to be found in any number of practices. 

Templar to dwarven Shadow Artist:  The contract as it is stated requires that you engage sexually, dwarf, with this half elf, while wearing a conical hat and a fake mustache, for political reasons, and only then once you've done this twice, and after the second act of sexual congress, you must sing The Wisdom of Trees by Methyas Groot before enacting the kill armed only with forks.  Mind you, this is to be done precisely in this manner, to make the most appropriate statement possible.  You cannot say no, dwarf.  In return you get four hundred coins now and another four hundred on completion of the job.

Barring the absurd, a contract may stipulate any number of things.

2. 

Artists are only granted the highest rank (master) with proven skill and evidenced dedication to the city-state of Tuluk. Artists of that rank are loyal to the city-state of Tuluk, and must be prepared to either sever ties with their patron...or to begin taking contracts against their patron. Patrons often dismiss partisans that achieve this rank precisely because their loyalty is no longer to the patron.

Who determines the changes in rank?  Is racial bias a method of hampering progress, as it should be?  Is there potential for bribing one's way into a higher status of artistry?  With a name like "Shadow Artist" does this preclude spies, informants, and non thief/burglar/assassin style workers of the system?  Why would a Surif wish to invest their time and energy into fostering a relationship with a potential Shadow Artist if they will only have such loyalty and service rewarded with a blank-eyed automaton who has no ability to back out of deals against their friends, employers and loved ones?[/quote]

In order:

Mentioned earlier, but templars, upon adequate quality of work/quantity of work proved.  Yes, racial bias exists.  No, you can't bribe your way into being a master artist.  Spies/informants/etc could be a part of the system but it doesn't mean they HAVE to be part of this; this is more for short-term projects, not long-term ones where infiltration/spying is needed.  Because that shadow artist won't act against the Surif or the Surif's House while the Surif is over them for the apprentice and journeyman ranks.  At Master rank, it's up to the Patron if they want to keep them around to have them for tasks; at that point it is generally inadvisable.

3.  With the social status chart being a more of a guideline than a living, breathing document to actually play off of and adhere to, will the onus be on the player of the Templar involved to be 100% certain of the social caste position for the individuals involved, or will there be some grandiose method of allowing the playerbase to be absolutely sure where they are in the social pecking order, so they cannot under any circumstances pull off a contract without help?

Why not both?

4.  How will non-citizen GMH employees be handled when it comes to being subject to a contract, does their status automatically reflect the relative position of one of their northern peers, or are they considered non-citizens who can be contracted against at any time?

If you do review the old chart, it handles that already.

5.  Will all contracts in this regard be restricted to Gol Krathu, or will contracts that take the artist abroad, not necessarily as far as Allanak, be forbidden?

Maybe.

6.  If this system is going to be reliant on status and power brokers willing to take the chances, isn't it perhaps time to open up the Surif on a much broader level than is currently being seen in Tuluk?

Frankly, we've been running full steam since an HRPT 2 months ago; we can't change everything overnight even if we do have plans.  Yes.  It would be nice to have another Surif noble, and we'll put up a call, but it might be a bit longer.

7. Will the templarate pcs have a recommended chart for rates or will it totally be at the discretion of the parties involved how much coin changes hands?

Yes to the former.

8.  Is the barter system allowed or is it all coin for contract?

I don't see why it couldn't involve barter.

9.  So the Shadow Artist can be known socially as a master burglar, who cannot talk to anyone about their jobs, and if they choose to, can show off their display of inks as a method of affirming their status and caste?   I this subtle?

Inks = yes.  Subtle, I dunno.  The old system was such that it allowed for "Master Thieves" and "Master Assassins" yet there was no determined tattooing, rank, or public status afforded to these individuals.  It was a "soft rank" that will now be something noteworthy if noticed (or if it is something that needs to be noticed).

10  With the Shadow Artists being sub-contractors for the City-State, will there be an established "artists union" being put in place to guide new players as well as veterans learning the system?

Not sure what you mean exactly...can you elaborate?

[Quirk]

Wow.

My hat's off, Nyr. Answering the whole thread like this is a heroic undertaking.

[Marauder Moe]

I suppose I should say something here.  Pardon me if I say something redundant, I haven't read the entire discussion.

Random shadow thoughts:
*Overall, seems interesting.  I feel like things could slip out of hand, but I don't see any reason why not to at least give it a try.
*This should be one of those things that everyone knows about but no one talks about.  I'm not even sure that the term "Shadow Artist" should actually be an IG phrase.
*You guys should implement the system without public announcement or documentation update.  The first round of agents should be recruits rather than volunteers.
*It seems like displaying your tattoo and/or publicly making it know you're a registered agent would be the quickest/surest way to let everyone (including His Faithful) know that you're a really BAD agent.
*I think it's important to express to agents that just because you have templarate consent/support doesn't mean that if you wind up in jail you can just walk out without consequence.  Being arrested by the Legions should be considered a gross failure of a contract, even if the actual goal is completed.  Payment, or more, may be forfeited in such a case.

[Nyr]

In Allanak, entire societies are capable of thriving without ever needing to interact with a templar. Tuluk is different. They're two different cities. For this licensed thing to work, there has to be faith in that system. In the third doc about taking the contract out, it states "You have faith in the system" ... well, in Allanak, nobody has any faith in any system. There are no systems. They are two different cities.

That's a good point as well.

I still want to know what happens when there's only one PC Shadow Artist in the city and someone takes out a contract to kill them.

Is that when they find out the Sun King has a time machine?

lol

How about if instead of a contract system it was more of a bounty system?

This one is a nice idea, too, with the only problem being the secrecy involved (a board that tells artists what is needed and how much it charges...well...it seems prone to leaks).

I'm having some trouble with the rigidity. Along with many of you, I agree that the 'no refusal' clause is difficult to swallow.  Random example; Say you are a shadow artist in Tuluk, a patron (or employer) has taken you in, fed/clothed/trained you up. Now you are 'in the system' and a Templar calls you up to mess with someone else that your Patron/employer is involved with (or is friends with, political allies etc). You can't refuse, you can't talk to your Patron about it. Your only option is to go in and actively work against your Patron's best interests. I get that this game is 'murder, corruption, betrayal' but usually you have some choice in *who* you are actively betraying, and for what interests you are doing the betraying.

Simply put, if you don't want to face the possibility of murder, corruption, and betrayal in a role that you volunteer to play, don't volunteer to play that role.  Your patron doesn't need to know about what you do against their allies because you aren't working against their allies--the hiring agent is!  You're simply a tool.

Why would a patron/employer take on the cost and effort of training up a shadow artist, who could then easily be used in a contract against them? I get the 'so that you can use them yourself' answer...but why put in the effort and time and energy if they can just as easily be used against you (maybe not against you personally, but could easily be used against your best interests). Why build up a tool that can be used by others to tear yourself down? I have a hard time seeing patrons and employers going through the trouble and expense. Is it that the only people that would really benefit from spending the time and energy to help train up a shadow artist would be the templarate?

Because it's a tool, and good tools are good for the interests of Tuluk as a whole.  Your rivals are also training tools that will have to be released "into the wild" later on, too.  You can also work out a deal with your artist so that they agree to stay on with you and not go higher in artist rank or whatever (in other words, they can stop at Journeyman and be your artist--they're still there for generic use, but never against your house or you).

Am I understanding correctly that almost all thievery/burglery would have to be contract driven and done through the templarate? So random muggings or pick pocketing would be basically nonexistent in Tuluk? I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this concept. So nobody in the Warrens who is a poor little thief ever steals just because they are hungry or because they are poor?

That depends on enforcement.  Petty theft is illegal.  You get thrown in jail for it even now, inked or not.  You could just as easily say "so nobody in the Warrens who is a poor little thief gets caught and thrown in jail for their petty theft to feed themselves/make ends meet?"  This could easily be a "theft is illegal" *wink wink nudge nudge thing*, too.

[Nyr]

To those of you replying now, I see your stuff, but I'm wading through, like...page 4...and replying to questions.  Sorry for the delay.

[Nyr]

The question isn't so much why anyone else would want to have relations with a Master Assassin, Malken -- you make some great points -- the question is why such a person themself would want to place their art or trade above their loved ones. Some people might, but some might not - by not allowing any avenue of refusal, the system as proposed pretty much ensures that anyone not fully devoted to Tuluk above all else and the artistry of their trade probably wouldn't be a shadow artist. And the people that -are- fanatical devotees, well, they probably have their niche in Tuluk just fine.

That might be a bit of the point behind it, though.

Right now, we have two issues that seem to plague Tuluk.  It's not terrible, it's not horrible, it is just kinda "how it has been."  I call these issues Reluctant Artist Syndrome and Loyal Artist Syndrome.

RAS -- you dabble in the art but you're not committed, so you may do something every now and then but that's it.
LAS -- you work just for one person and that's it.  All work has to be approved through them.

Put both together and what happens when someone who is not employing an artist directly wants something done?  They can't get it done because no PC artists are available, whether due to reluctance or loyalty.

I think this would fix that, at least, and make it a system that works for those that want artists on their payroll/partisanship (they have the perks of being able to choose their own guy and even take a cut from what their guy gets paid for work, if that's part of their arrangement) and those that want artists to do work without being fingered overtly as the contractor (they can indirectly use someone else's artist already being trained/patron'd up, and appropriately, the patron would get a cut of the proceeds).

[palomar]

Some assassinations. (90% of them in my case), are done by more then one person. Sometimes people dont know I exist and they're helping me kill the dude, sometimes they're following my instructions. I find that type of killing to be very fun, since it involves a great many people in little or large ways. Even if it's as simple as hiring a whore to lure a dude into an apartment.

But your type of 'no talking about a contract' kind of prevents this, doesnt it? Every artist seems to require to be a loner, since these things should not be talked about. And if you impliment a system where a shadow runner who gets the job, goes right back to the Templar to hire a 'whore' shadow runner, and 'flasher' shadow runner, and 'pickpocket' shadow runner. Suddenly, something that a group of 3-4 vagrants could scheme, discuss, and carry out in a single day evening, turns into a 7 day ordeal, where the Templar is seeking all these people out.

That's an interesting point to bring up, but I think we can make room in the system so that if an artist needs help, they can ask the templarate to sub out parts of it to other artists for assistance (and if assisting, well, they do have to talk to each other, no?).

It would be easy for Shadow Agents employing Shadow Artists to set up group contracts with the local Templar, because the Shadow Agents can pick their own Artists for specific jobs. It would be trickier when it comes to unaffiliated Artists or Artists of a different affiliation.

[Nyr]

THE DISLIKES

All those mandates.

The templar is mandated to accept any and all contracts provided the contracting agent has the proper status and money, the templar is mandated to not futz with the choosing of the "shadow artist" to execute the contract, the executing sneaky-type is mandated to accept any and all contracts, the executing sneaky-type is mandated to speak of the contract to nobody, and sneaky-types are all mandated to be independent of everyone when they reach high levels, even independent of their patron/employer.

I feel this will cut down on RP at each mandated step in the process above.  There's no weighing of risks and benefits before taking out a contract, no give and take between contracting agent and sneaky-type or contracting agent and templar, and so on.  All these interactions are drastically reduced.

It's a possibility, but I'd rather implement a system with controls to ensure it works at start BEFORE loosening them...than implement a system with fewer controls and implement those later.  It's easier to loosen guidelines up than it is to strengthen them.

The incentives for patrons/employers to hire sneaky-types are far outweighed by the disincentives.

Furthermore, why would you want to patron a shadow artist? ... ... Why pour in all that effort?

Because you'd be able to use them for contracts if you wanted to do so.

I agree that this IS an incentive for a patron or employer to hire a sneaky-type, but I just think it's a very small incentive.  After all, why does Chosen Lady Dasari care if the sneaky-type that the templarate compels to complete her contract is her own partisan/employee or not?  The templarate is mandated to pick a sneaky-type sufficient to the contract's task, right?  And that sneaky-type chosen by the templarate is mandated to accept the mission.  So Chosen Lady Dasari gets a competent sneaky-type for her mission either way.

That's the only (small) advantage that I see for a patron/employer to hire a sneaky-type, but the disadvantages are many.

1. Interviewing, hiring, equipping, and training sneaky-types isn't easy.  It takes money and, more importantly, it takes a lot of OOC time and energy on the part of the leader PC.
2. You're training up PCs that can be put to use by your rivals, maybe not directly against you at first, but to further the goals of your rivals in other ways.
3. Your sneaky-type underling will eventually be required to take jobs directly against you if they rise to a high enough level.
4. If your sneaky-type underling fails publicly in a task then it reflects badly on YOU.  Remember, your underling sneaky-type PC can't refuse any contract given to her, so if she fails miserably at a contract initiated by your rival or anybody else it will still hurt you and it won't touch the contracting agent at all because of the anonymity of the system.

So why bother?  There's a teensy upside and major downsides.  Let someone else go through the trouble and expense of hiring, cultivating, and equipping those sneaky-types.  Let someone else run the risk of their sneaky-types failing publicly at a mission.  You can just sit back and let the other PC leaders go through the trouble of all that work... but you can still put their hard work to your own use because of the mandates.  It's the Tragedy of the (Red Sun?) Commons: all leader PCs will want sneaky-types around to execute their compulsory contracts brokered by the templarate, but no PC leaders will want to personally go through the trouble of hiring and training PC sneaky-types.

Well, there's actually a couple other upsides.  You know the capabilities of your own artist, so you know what they can do and you can ensure they do a task exactly how you want it done once it goes through the templarate from you.  You also can arrange to get your own cut from any contracts they take from the "system" that do not come from you.  You also can arrange discounted rates with your artist (either on the front end or the back end) for them doing work for you (you're providing them with other benefits like training, after all).

As to your points,

1.  Yes, it does.
2.  Yes, you are.  So are your rivals, so is everyone that is employing an artist.  If everyone is in that boat then it is not much of a detriment (though it is still one in some views).
3.  And you can get rid of them if they get to that level, or beef up security if you expect a rival of equal or higher status is going to try to take you out.
4.  Yes, it would reflect badly on you, but probably not as much as such things did in the past.

As for the Tragedy of the Commons, at least it would be a system that worked.  You can sit back and let someone else train their own artists, and know that you're probably paying more to a patron than to the artist in the long run, which benefits the patron and makes it less of a "tragedy" when they've got a fat pocketbook that can then be used to drive more plot.

The changes undermine the power of leaders and clans (except the templarate).

One route to coded influence in the game is for PC leaders and clans to build their own bevy of sneaky-types to do their bidding.  That advantage is (or was) what makes all the costs, headaches, and risks of cultivating PC sneaky-types ultimately worth it.  But with these changes everyone will have greatly increased access to the services of sneaky-types, nullifying any advantage that the hard work of the PC leaders and clans put into recruiting their own sneaky forces.  Why would anyone fear House Sneaksalot over any other House, if any of the Houses can just as easily hire several burglars (including a few from House Sneaksalot invariably!) to harass their rivals?  What leverage would House Sneaksalot have for their sneaky services if literally anyone can anonymously contract sneaky-types to do their work with the knowledge that the templarate must broker their contract in good faith?

I guess House Sneaksalot needs to diversify.  A House's goals shouldn't revolve around maintaining a bevy of shadow artists unless that IS the House's goal or unless a noble just happens to have that kind of coin or resources sitting around to devote towards that end.  In that case, Kassigarh or Nenyuk would probably be the Houses with the most under this future system, seeking to draw in as much cash as possible from these contracts.

PC to PC roleplay has little role in policing the system.

Because of the way the system is set up, it seems that the only way that a templar PC would run afoul of the system is from an Imm intervening, which the quotes above both suggest.  There's no way for a contracting agent PC to know if they're being ripped off , screwed, or ignored by the PC templar and there's no way for a contracted sneaky-type PC to know if they're being ripped off or being sent to their death by the templar PC.  If the contracting agent and the "shadow artist" are both in the dark there's no way for their RP to provide a counterbalance, however small, to the major leverage that the templarate will have.  The many mandates seem to be in place to promote OOC trust in the system despite all the IC and OOC secrecy and reliance on the templarate PCs as brokers.  This is a personal preference, but I would rather see a system that relies less on secret Imm enforcement of mandates and more on roleplay between PCs providing the majority of the counterbalance.

There's no way for an agent to know if they're being ripped off, but they have faith in the system which is set up by this documentation.
There's no way to know if they're being ignored by the templar, but they have faith in the system...etc.
See above for the artist.

It's not secret IMM enforcement of mandates, it's the culture of the city that would enforce it by documentation.  There's no secret stuff going on.

[Nyr]

I'd be more interested to see the non-lethal "message sending" situations. Its not very "Tuluki" to mug someone, or to beat them down in the street because they spat near a Winrothol or whatever. Tuluk is very about snide comments, and things happening out of the way.

Not anymore.  It's not very Tuluki to mug someone, but if you need to send a message to someone that's encroaching on your turf (political, economic, or social), hiring an artist to go beat the shit out that person sure sounds like fun.  Tuluk is not just about snide comments.

Which is why, I thought, the "Assassination Contracts" were the only thing you could do in Tuluk. Otherwise, it was Bard's territory. I mean, who would deface someone's home? Not a true Tuluki, for sure, that'd be too obvious! They'd add something in, that didn't match the decor, and snicker the next time they were at the bar.

A Tuluki Artist would deface someone's home on a contract to do that very thing.  Sure beats spamstealing from NPCs as far as drama goes...

[Nyr]

Of course there are many virtual people in the game, but they don't really effect other players directly (at least not regularly).  If there's only one active shadow artist PC that's an assassin and someone takes out a contract on their lover, who's the assassin for the contract going to be?  I'm sure staff could, if the templarate didn't want to approach this PC assassin, create some npc to do the job, but this seems problematic.

We've talked about this and we'd like to avoid it in two ways.

First, there'd need to be a few artists operating.  Second, templars could go about "recruiting" if they felt there was a need to have more artists.

You're right, there are problems involved with creating NPCs to handle this role, and we don't really want to go down that road unless we have to do so.

[Nyr]

Maybe just add in a wrinkle to allow shadow artists to work for themselves on occasion for occasions when business is slow, or for a shadow artist whose skill set/skill level doesn't quite match any current contract. You could require the shadow artist to pre-clear small self-sustaining jobs with their templar handler, with the understanding that a small percentage of the profits belong to the government, and that would add in some IC flexibility while maintaining the new feel that the government really does own every contracted criminal in the city.

That might be interesting if there were an IC tie in to it, not really sure...but it's a good idea.

Krath, that would just suck to have you contracted to kill your own mate or lover or whatnot. Perhaps there should be something about registering who your lover or mate might be so that the Faithful don't choose you for those contracts.

I might be morbid in the kind of roleplay I prefer, but if I were going to play a Tuluki artist assassin-type under this system, I'd relish the chance to have to face this kind of decision in-game.  Would I kill the mate?  Would I protect them and run off to Red Storm?  Would I try to figure out some way to call off the contract so that I'm not "refusing?"  Would I try to figure out who hired me for the task, kill my mate anyway--but then find a way to kill the person that made me kill my mate?

[Nyr]

Crazy idea out of left field:

Move actual licensing to His Chosen. Keep registration with The Faithful.

Recruitment
The Shadow Agent approaches a noble and says "I'll work for you or your buddies." Or a noble finds promising individuals and offers to be their broker (and even helps get them registered).

Brokering
The noble then acts as a broker for those who hold some influence with him. Same rules apply on the caste system and targets. If these rules are broken and His Faithful find out a heavy fine is levied, qynars re-assigned etc. Don't do it unless you notify staff and are super careful.

This reintroduces Loyal Artist Syndrome.

Wrapping up
Talia has gone missing. It's been several weeks. The Chosen Lord has a private meeting with a Faithful Lord/Lady and mentions which contracts were fulfilled that month. He never discloses the names of who did what.

So the templarate doesn't know what's going on?

Exemption

His Legion, His Faithful and His Chosen are all immune. They shouldn't be killing each other anyway. There's a war on!

It's a very Tuluki solution I think.

Thoughts?

They totally should be killing each other if they have good reason.  Political power plays don't stop for external threats; if anything, they might use them to their advantage.  Honestly I'm not a big fan of this idea.

[Ouroboros]

The project seems like an interesting direction to take things in. It's documented, unlike many aspects still up in the air right now with most clans undergoing revamps, and that helps. It's in the spirit the North was (re)made in, and goes a ways towards promoting the [slowly diminishing] distinctions with the South. I only have two issues with it.

1) Templars will never be unbiased in acting as brokers, regardless of however many rules might be set forth. This is due to OOC as well as IC biases every player/character inevitably has, even those trusted in sponsored roles. Even if one assumes OOC bias can be somehow overcome, the IC bias of the Templars will continue to prevail. Now more then ever, when their political status and plans are in turmoil over the merger. We can be asked to imagine a world where that won't happen, but after decades of experience, some elephants in the room can at least be acknowledged and worked around even if they can't be removed. Bias being one of them. Which brings me to my second issue...

2) Templars themselves should not be exempt from contracts. They become political targets the moment they take on the mantle, from both within and without the government. They continue to hold a family name, which carries it's own allegiances regardless of appearances, and the are quite simply, human. Tuluk is built on the principle of blind faith in the system, and none are supposed to believe that more deeply than the Templars. That means they should be willing to accept the consequences of that system, and their own actions. Even if that means another Templar might try to take them out or otherwise hinder them for political reasons. Their status protects them from contracts from anyone below them, but they should not be immune to the system as a whole.

If the system as proposed can't work directly with patrons acting as brokers, or agents themselves being able to directly contracts artists, then I firmly believe some third, neutral party is needed. This could be any number of things, including a family tasked with the brokering of contracts by Muk himself. They should have no high social benefits from this status, should not be exempt from the law, and should be barred from any and all political maneuvers or alliances. This could be a PC, or perhaps more ideally, a staff-animated NPC at least at higher levels. At least if bias exists in such cases, it can be closely monitored by staff as a whole and there won't be any IC loopholes that can be used for OOC vendettas.

Those are my thoughts and concerns, thus far. How this plays out in reality, passed the docs, will be telling.

[Nyr]

How did we get in that situation to begin with? I'd say the templar done fucked up, he should have known to pick an artist that wasn't emotionally attached to the target. That's an IC mistake he can bear IC consequences for. Since the broker is a templar, he can of course kill the artist for refusing anyway if he really wants to keep the hit ultra-secret. But that shouldn't be the only avenue to go down. I can see times when disappearing a skillful shadow artist because he didn't want to take a contract would probably be worse than just risking the target might learn and be on their guard. Leaving it open to possibilities is way better than having a doc saying This Must Always Happen Exactly Just So.

We can relax the standards on the wording of the documentation to allow some leeway in the case of a problematic contract, but your point is quite valid that a templar probably shouldn't be picking an artist to kill their own lover.

As for these points:

But besides love, there are lots of other viable reasons I can see an artist wanting to refuse -- most of these will probably be far more common anyway.

• The contract is beyond their skill and they know it, and they don't want to risk failure or death.
• The contract is beneath their skill and isn't a challenge, and they don't want to waste their time
• The reward offered isn't worth the risk, or isn't enough to cover expenses
• They're too busy with other work

1)  Templar shouldn't be giving a contract to someone that can't do it.
2)  Artist shouldn't have that kind of attitude; if they got asked to do it is because they were the best one for the job (or the only PC available?)
3)  This should never, ever, ever be an issue; the reward should always be worth the risk and also be enough to cover expenses
4)  Not being able to refuse is not the same as not being able to delay or negotiate details.

All of those reasons and more are part of a typical negotiation if you're trying to hire a criminal anywhere else, but in Tuluk, since the criminal has no power to refuse offers, they're at the helpless mercy of the broker arranging their deal. And that broker is a templar. And the templar will kill you if you refuse. So who are the only people who become shadow artists in Tuluk? People who have criminal skills but are anything but criminals, and are willing to use those skills any way they're told to by the templars. And who won't become shadow artists? Anyone who has criminal skills but would prefer to be the master of their own destiny and take jobs on their own terms. I suspect the latter group is larger than the former, especially since your typical criminal type probably has issues with following the rules/laws to begin with. Shadow artistry would seem to be more of a niche, when the docs apparently want it to be the norm. So how do you bring it back to the norm? Make the system less rigidly do-or-die for the artist. There have been lots of great suggestions on how to do that in this thread besides mine.

The helpless mercy of a templar they should be trusting to have the best interests of this system at heart...yeah.  And no, it doesn't say what happens when you refuse, but killing might not be the first or only option of punishment.  As for the rest of this, the best I have to offer is a *shrug*.  If you want to play a criminal that plays by guidelines and has this kind of contract work, play a shadow artist.  If you want to play a criminal that does stuff on their own terms, do what you want, there are other places that allow that much more easily, and you can even give it a go in Tuluk if you think you can handle it. This isn't meant to be for everyone.

[Nyr]

I just hopes this gives people something to do.

I've played in tuluk as a fairly well known assassin. Nobody wanted anyone dead, nobody even tasked him to spy on their rivals.

Thanks, I'm glad some former assassins are chiming in...it got a little lonely, no?

How do we stop this happening?

The pretty obvious answer seems to be "talk to staff", at least to me.  If someone's not playing anymore, they're virtually around and can't be targeted.  This is an entirely OOC situation and I imagine it'd be easier to tell all involved "uh, the player of that PC's not playing.  So maybe this will need to be called off til they do return."  Virtually killing them would be unfair to the victim.  Storage would be unwarranted for the victim, I think, too.  Leave it at an OOC issue and I think it's fine.

This also fixes the lovers case, and possibly the partisan case, without Amos ever getting the right of refusal. In the lovers case, if Amos is engaged to kill his lover, he will return much later and admit his failure. Talia isn't likely to engage Amos for the task, because the cost to money and reputation is unlikely to deter him. In the partisan case, a patron who has instilled sufficient loyalty in their partisan might still be safe; a templar would have to exercise great care in turning such a tool against its creator.

That's one interesting take on it as well...

We will however also need some means of escape for a templar asked to handle contracts for tasks where no suitable Shadow Artist exists, or the Shadow Artist who's perfect for the job accepts it and then goes out and gets eaten by a defiler.

They can sit on it or even tell the person they'll need to try and find someone worthy of handling it.  In the case of the latter, I think I covered that--refund the agent half of their money (or all, if we want to be more generous) and try again with another artist later.

[Nyr]

What happens if there's a *templar* who wants someone's reputation smeared, or loot looted, or life taken - but the target hasn't broken any actual laws so there's no grounds for arrest? She can make something up, and avoid having to pay an Artist or even getting another party involved. Or, she could pretend there's a broker, and hire an Artist herself. Or, if that's not allowed, she could easily wait for someone else to get pissed off by the target, and broker the deal. Which she would find her absolute best person, charge the absolute least money to the person wanting the job done - and cover the balance to the best person out of her pocket with no one being the wiser.

I think we'd discourage templar PCs from just trumping up crap so they can get someone killed.  We sorta do that anyway.  There are multiple templars, and if a templar wants someone smeared/looted, they can certainly go that route through another templar as broker.  And since it's a templar, of course, they can run things through to the artist almost directly (still needs to go through another templar?).  If they want them killed, I think we'd like to know on our end first before that proceeds, especially if it's just a personal thing.

Seems to me like the templar holds ALL the cards - not just most of them, or some of them. The templar can do the reverse, for the reverse scenario - a broker asks for the ruination of someone the templar wants to remain unsullied. So the templar charges an exhorbitant fee, contracts the absolute least competent person to do the job, pays that least competent person a fraction of what that person -should- get for it, knowing that the artist is likely to not even bother trying, and fail miserably.

They could if they weren't disallowed from that.  Again, they're meant to keep this system working; evidence of corruption in this system makes it not work.

Also, if you're the artist and you don't want to do the job, you could just take it, and not do it. And claim you tried but failed.

I guess you could...now what would that mean afterwards, though?

In other words - there should be more of an incentive to WANT to be licensed, other than "it's required." Because what assassin in their right mind would volunteer to get a license to kill people, if he knows that at some point he might be required to kill his own family?

Because it pays pretty damn well.  Again, you'd be surprised what the stipulations were on that before.

[Nyr]

I'm not caught up with this whole thread yet. I like the idea of buyouts for assassins. I hate the idea of but outs for victims. Now there is a real disincentive to using the system. In stead of getting what you paid for you've now alerted someone. Now they can come back at you. Now they're alert that you're out to get them. (And really we can usually figure out who our enemies are. We can narrow the field at least) so the person who contracted is in a worse position than when they started.

I agree, the idea of an assassin buyout might be a good idea, but definitely not for the victim.

And do you get your upfront fees back?
Years ago (2002? 04?) the guild would take money to kill someone then let them buy out of that contract. This always struck me as a crappy business practice. Sure you get paid twice for one job, but would ever want to use you a second time. After all you could have people not dead for free.

Right now it's planned to be:

agent pays broker
broker pays half to artist
artist fails?  agent gets half or more back (templarate still would keep its cut in most if not all cases)

[Nyr]

Master shadow artists, perhaps, are the exception to this rule; you'd rather see them alive, I'm fairly sure. But then, consider what kind of a place Tuluk is. Tuluk is a city-state where the armed forces are lead by direct delegates of an immortal sorceror-king, fielding soldiers such as religiously fanatic elite slaves and immensely loyal legionnaires whose practices I cannot detail, but who are very much immensely loyal as well. Novice or journeyman shadow artists aside, if a master shadow assassin is not comparable in loyalty to a templar, fanatic or officer, they are not cut out to be the epitome of artistry. If, by the time you're a master shadow artist, you hold things in more value than the orders you receive, you aren't a good master shadow artist.

Good point.

Also consider the whole situation of 'what if person X wants to off templar partisan Y.' Firstly, assassinations aren't your everyday occurence; I'm imagining they'd cost a whole lot more than things like rumors spread, people roughened up or items planted/stolen. Now consider that, though it may be secret that said partisan is a shadow artist, said person still is a templar's affiliate. The money to afford such an operation would be well above what any mere commoner would realistically be able to pay*, and no templar would choose a partisan commoner's wellbeing over that of such a rich person's. Secondly, consider that, since being a partisan is a supposedly prestigious job, a Templar should be able to find a dozen people to replace their now-lost pet and fund them well with the contract's money even if their affiliate ends up dead. Between commoners being far, far below templars, commoners being utterly and entirely displosable, and the amount of money and social class that such money requires to attain, contracts on templar pets being manufactured is nothing more than a passing nuisance.

Also another good point.

I'm sorry, but I don't see this as any sort of good change.

It puts even more power into the hands of Templars (especially new Templars) of questionable integrity, and does not provide incentive to choose non-killing options in any way.

Well, it provides the options there to do those at least, which didn't exist before.  Also, templars of questionable integrity?  Sure, the templars might be in general, but that doesn't mean they can't be seen as neutral in one area.  Tuluk is becoming a bit more Orwellian; "fear the templarate" and "trust the templarate" shouldn't be too difficult to maintain in a Tuluki's mind when the two thoughts are about different aspects of the Templarate.  The players are not of questionable integrity, for sure.  They're playing sponsored roles, these are part of their docs, and while they've been briefed on them prior to the general playerbase and have offered their own feedback...they do know that the way the docs are is the way that the sponsored roles should be handled.

Plus there are the problems such as Quirk mentions in his post - problems like overlapping time zones or lack thereof.

That's an OOC problem, not an IC problem--pretty easily fixed.

Also the no refusal thing is the part where I said to myself, "Yep, never going to be a licensed shadow artist ever."

If you want to play a role where you get to pick and choose what jobs you want, an indie not tied to this system would be better for you.

[Nyr]

Wow.

My hat's off, Nyr. Answering the whole thread like this is a heroic undertaking.

I don't think this kind of change could be done in a different way.  Not everyone is going to like it, everyone has their own ideas on what might be better, and some have criticism that needs to be addressed BY the documentation.  Even with people going over the docs earlier on before this public release, we couldn't possibly cover every eventuality in advance.

[Nyr]

I suppose I should say something here.  Pardon me if I say something redundant, I haven't read the entire discussion.

Random shadow thoughts:
*Overall, seems interesting.  I feel like things could slip out of hand, but I don't see any reason why not to at least give it a try.
*This should be one of those things that everyone knows about but no one talks about.  I'm not even sure that the term "Shadow Artist" should actually be an IG phrase.
*You guys should implement the system without public announcement or documentation update.  The first round of agents should be recruits rather than volunteers.
*It seems like displaying your tattoo and/or publicly making it know you're a registered agent would be the quickest/surest way to let everyone (including His Faithful) know that you're a really BAD agent.
*I think it's important to express to agents that just because you have templarate consent/support doesn't mean that if you wind up in jail you can just walk out without consequence.  Being arrested by the Legions should be considered a gross failure of a contract, even if the actual goal is completed.  Payment, or more, may be forfeited in such a case.

Three points here need a response for sure:

*This should be one of those things that everyone knows about but no one talks about.  I'm not even sure that the term "Shadow Artist" should actually be an IG phrase.

Maybe there's a better word for it, but people have used this as a euphemism for assassins and thieves since forever ago, even though it's not in docs.  Not sure where it originated, honestly.

*You guys should implement the system without public announcement or documentation update.  The first round of agents should be recruits rather than volunteers.

Templars recruiting potential artists is something that would be nice to see.  As far as how to implement it, it IS more complicated than it was before and ICly, no one has any clue about this, so I think we'd have to...uh...say something...right?

*It seems like displaying your tattoo and/or publicly making it know you're a registered agent would be the quickest/surest way to let everyone (including His Faithful) know that you're a really BAD agent.

Well, assuming actual rank associated with each artist...how would someone know you're a Master if you don't have a sweet tattoo saying you're one?  You can't talk about what it is you do, but having it "written" all over your body is a little like a calling card itself.

Some assassinations. (90% of them in my case), are done by more then one person. Sometimes people dont know I exist and they're helping me kill the dude, sometimes they're following my instructions. I find that type of killing to be very fun, since it involves a great many people in little or large ways. Even if it's as simple as hiring a whore to lure a dude into an apartment.

But your type of 'no talking about a contract' kind of prevents this, doesnt it? Every artist seems to require to be a loner, since these things should not be talked about. And if you impliment a system where a shadow runner who gets the job, goes right back to the Templar to hire a 'whore' shadow runner, and 'flasher' shadow runner, and 'pickpocket' shadow runner. Suddenly, something that a group of 3-4 vagrants could scheme, discuss, and carry out in a single day evening, turns into a 7 day ordeal, where the Templar is seeking all these people out.

That's an interesting point to bring up, but I think we can make room in the system so that if an artist needs help, they can ask the templarate to sub out parts of it to other artists for assistance (and if assisting, well, they do have to talk to each other, no?).

It would be easy for Shadow Agents employing Shadow Artists to set up group contracts with the local Templar, because the Shadow Agents can pick their own Artists for specific jobs. It would be trickier when it comes to unaffiliated Artists or Artists of a different affiliation.

Yeah, so maybe that's a perk of having several artists under your employ?  You might have 3 Journeymen that won't ever go higher in rank because they want to stay with your House...but you can use all three on one job, ensuring success.

[Nyr]

The project seems like an interesting direction to take things in. It's documented, unlike many aspects still up in the air right now with most clans undergoing revamps, and that helps. It's in the spirit the North was (re)made in, and goes a ways towards promoting the [slowly diminishing] distinctions with the South. I only have two issues with it.

1) Templars will never be unbiased in acting as brokers, regardless of however many rules might be set forth. This is due to OOC as well as IC biases every player/character inevitably has, even those trusted in sponsored roles. Even if one assumes OOC bias can be somehow overcome, the IC bias of the Templars will continue to prevail. Now more then ever, when their political status and plans are in turmoil over the merger. We can be asked to imagine a world where that won't happen, but after decades of experience, some elephants in the room can at least be acknowledged and worked around even if they can't be removed. Bias being one of them. Which brings me to my second issue...

Just like an artist would have to do their job, a templar would have to do their job--which means making the system work.  Sure, they might HAVE IC biases.  Acting on them by manipulating this brokerage system would be foolhardy.  Acting on those in other ways sounds more reasonable.

2) Templars themselves should not be exempt from contracts. They become political targets the moment they take on the mantle, from both within and without the government. They continue to hold a family name, which carries it's own allegiances regardless of appearances, and the are quite simply, human. Tuluk is built on the principle of blind faith in the system, and none are supposed to believe that more deeply than the Templars. That means they should be willing to accept the consequences of that system, and their own actions. Even if that means another Templar might try to take them out or otherwise hinder them for political reasons. Their status protects them from contracts from anyone below them, but they should not be immune to the system as a whole.

We brought this up in the first place and here's why we disagreed on it...but first, a quick correction.  Templars do hold the name of their family.  They do not have allegiance to their family.  That is drilled into the heads of templar PCs (despite beliefs otherwise).

First, it'd need at LEAST a templar to do the contract in the first place.
Second, if a templar in Tuluk wants another templar in Tuluk dead, that sounds like a plot ripe for some discussion with staff so we can figure out whether this makes sense or not.

Maybe it can be loosened up in the future, but as stated above and earlier, making it fast and loose now might spell trouble for those wishing to find the holes in the system that were NOT intended to be there.

If the system as proposed can't work directly with patrons acting as brokers, or agents themselves being able to directly contracts artists, then I firmly believe some third, neutral party is needed. This could be any number of things, including a family tasked with the brokering of contracts by Muk himself. They should have no high social benefits from this status, should not be exempt from the law, and should be barred from any and all political maneuvers or alliances. This could be a PC, or perhaps more ideally, a staff-animated NPC at least at higher levels. At least if bias exists in such cases, it can be closely monitored by staff as a whole and there won't be any IC loopholes that can be used for OOC vendettas.

Actually Rathustra hit on a fun idea of having a confession-booth style thing.  I never really thought of it being its own script-worthy event where someone goes in, writes on a board, then leaves, and it goes to staff, but...hmm...

Would that really get rid of the appearance of bias?  Maybe...but would it increase staff work?  Yep...we'd have to review these cases ourselves or sub it out to templar PCs, which would be defeating the purpose anyway.

[Quirk]

How do we stop this happening?

The pretty obvious answer seems to be "talk to staff", at least to me.  If someone's not playing anymore, they're virtually around and can't be targeted.  This is an entirely OOC situation and I imagine it'd be easier to tell all involved "uh, the player of that PC's not playing.  So maybe this will need to be called off til they do return."  Virtually killing them would be unfair to the victim.  Storage would be unwarranted for the victim, I think, too.  Leave it at an OOC issue and I think it's fine.

Um. In my example, the target, Malik, was quite definitely playing. Plenty of other PCs are interacting with Malik, including the increasingly annoyed person who took out the contract.

The cited problem is that Amos and Malik have no playing time overlap, and it's liable to take some time to discover this. Possibly quite a long time. Having discovered this, the player of Amos can talk to staff, but - Malik's logging in regularly, what are they going to do? By the time the situation is resolved and Amos is given a free pass on this one and someone else is set on Malik's track, we might be RL months down the road, and any number of events may have happened since. Talking to staff takes time, and if it's not as clear-cut as "so-and-so is dead / not logging in", it's quite probable that the first request won't clear things up. It also seems like a burden for staff if they have to field a new request every time a target leaves the city or doesn't log in for a couple of weeks or is generally hard to find.

Besides this, it seems to me that if taking out a contract becomes "pay a large sum up front, and then your target might get hit a long time from now", people are going to cut out the middle man and make private, faster-acting arrangements. I strongly feel that there needs to be some easy way to write off a contract that cannot be completed within a reasonable timespan for OOC reasons (or IC reasons, such as a fleeing target) which leads to no worse than a slap on the wrist for the artist - even if it's just that there exists a time limit, and the artist reaching that time limit without success incurs a fine for their very discreet failure and is taken off the contract.

I think there remains a problem with templar oversight, though - even with very close OOC scrutiny, it may not be possible to be sure that a templar is deliberately setting a contract up to fail rather than just screwing up.

[Barzalene]

As an employer can you ask? Can you opt not to hire anyone who may have conflicting loyalties? Can you ask them to strip to check them for clues?

[slvrmoontiger]

As an employer can you ask? Can you opt not to hire anyone who may have conflicting loyalties? Can you ask them to strip to check them for clues?

Considering Zalanthas I don't see why one couldn't.