Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[LauraMars]

I still want to know what happens when there's only one PC Shadow Artist in the city and someone takes out a contract to kill them.

Is that when they find out the Sun King has a time machine?

[BadSkeelz]

So that's what happened to people who got Lirathowned...

I'm glad I'm not the only one whose getting Shadowrunner and Looper vibes from this. Makes for good reading.

[Blur]

How about if instead of a contract system it was more of a bounty system?

1. Noble wants commoner Amos dead.
2. He goes to Templar, tosses some heavy pouches of coin and gives him the instructions.
3. Noble>commoner. Therefore Templar sanctions it and receives coins for his trouble.
4. Templar places the instructions on a special IC board only shadow artists would have access.
5. Templar also states the bounty: coins, jewels, steel sword. Whatever the noble have given the Templar to sweeten the deal.
6. Shadow artists check the board regularly if they see a generous bounty and think they can handle the job, they contact Templar and take it.
7. Shadow artist performs the job, and Templar decides how well and pays the artist the bounty accordingly.
8. The Templar will decide if the bounty has been carried out and thus complete or if the job should remain available for other artists to attempt
9. This finally decision will probably be dictated by how well the Templar was paid himself for the trouble.
10. The bounty will remain on the board for up to an IC year. At which point noble would have to reconsider the bounty, either withdrawing it or paying the Templar again to put it up again.


Alright so this system allows shadow artists to choose whether or not to take jobs. While the bounty is important, the harder the job the more prestige. A good hit and performance might still warrant a bonus from the contractor. Shadow artists would be sworn to secrecy on the contents of the board, violating that rules could mean disappearing. However,  it wouldn't be uncommon for the victim to somehow still find out there was a hit on them. At which point they might decide to pack up and run to Luirs or Redstorm for an IC year or two until it blows over. That kinda sends a nice message too. The system also covers for the fact there might be no shadow artists capable of attempting the hit unlike the contract system.

The victim now having the potential to know that someone is going to try to kill them does makes things a lot harder for a shadow artist. Thus I feel they would need a bit more leeway in order to perform their duties. There for there should be more emphasis for performance and effectiveness rather then just discretion. Also since legionnaire are roughly excepted from harm by a shadow artist, perhaps good artists would they would have a working relationship with soldiers. I don't think legionnaires should be allowed to be shadow artists themselves but I can see them being paid to look the other way or move crowds along as someone attempts to assassinate someone in a tavern in the middle of the day. The citizen themselves maybe even giving the artist an applause if they are able to kill their target efficiently without making a ruckus ( and initiating crime code). Equally though some victims might pay legionnaires to help them out instead so there is room for a lot of treachery. Also knowing or hiring shadow artist once again becomes profitable.

[Irulan]

I have a few thoughts after reading through the docs. I found myself agreeing with Jherlen quite a bit while perusing the responses. I think having specific documents on the shadow arts in Tuluk is wonderful and will go a long way to improving the role play in and around Tuluk. Thank you guys (imms) for putting so much time and energy into these!

I'm having some trouble with the rigidity. Along with many of you, I agree that the 'no refusal' clause is difficult to swallow.  Random example; Say you are a shadow artist in Tuluk, a patron (or employer) has taken you in, fed/clothed/trained you up. Now you are 'in the system' and a Templar calls you up to mess with someone else that your Patron/employer is involved with (or is friends with, political allies etc). You can't refuse, you can't talk to your Patron about it. Your only option is to go in and actively work against your Patron's best interests. I get that this game is 'murder, corruption, betrayal' but usually you have some choice in *who* you are actively betraying, and for what interests you are doing the betraying.

Why would a patron/employer take on the cost and effort of training up a shadow artist, who could then easily be used in a contract against them? I get the 'so that you can use them yourself' answer...but why put in the effort and time and energy if they can just as easily be used against you (maybe not against you personally, but could easily be used against your best interests). Why build up a tool that can be used by others to tear yourself down? I have a hard time seeing patrons and employers going through the trouble and expense. Is it that the only people that would really benefit from spending the time and energy to help train up a shadow artist would be the templarate?

Am I understanding correctly that almost all thievery/burglery would have to be contract driven and done through the templarate? So random muggings or pick pocketing would be basically nonexistent in Tuluk? I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this concept. So nobody in the Warrens who is a poor little thief ever steals just because they are hungry or because they are poor?

Some of my immediate thoughts and questions. Overall, I'm glad to see some specific docs about sneakity type play in Tuluk. I think in general people will be much more inclined to play these roles if specific guidelines are mapped out for them. Sneakity type stuff does happen in Tuluk, they just like to be neat and tidy about it all.

[Malken]

Blur, your system would work in a city like Allanak, not in Tuluk, where secrecy is often more valuable than bronze.

With a system like yours, everyone and their cousins would end up knowing who has a bounty on their head, both in an IC and OOC manner.

[Malken]

Am I understanding correctly that almost all thievery/burglery would have to be contract driven and done through the templarate? So random muggings or pick pocketing would be basically nonexistent in Tuluk? I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around this concept. So nobody in the Warrens who is a poor little thief ever steals just because they are hungry or because they are poor?

I don't really understand that part either.. It seems to me that a pickpocket would have been doing that from his early ages, picking pockets from wealthy traders and warren folks alike. I seriously doubt that anyone would suddenly find themselves at 16 and decide that for a living they want to be a shadow artist focusing on pickpocketing only.

Unless I misread and it means more like, "If you get caught unlicensed as a pickpocket, prepare to pay a heft fee/spend some time in jail", as opposed to getting caught pickpocketing while licensed.

But even THEN, a licensed shadow artist who ONLY pickpockets when a contract is given to him would quickly lose the "art" gained if he never practices his theft on random passerbys, stealing small amount of coins here and there.

[Dar]

I've played random joke merchants in Tuluk who were never bards/seekers/respected members of society. I was probably better at various ... performances then some bards at the time, but I still did not have the influence and respect that they did. Only difference? I'm just a dude who sings ditties, and they are bards, parts of an organization and tradition of Tuluk. Same goes for shadow runners. You can steal crap to your hearts content, until you get caught and get your hands cut off. Or ... you can be a shadow artist.  I wonder how many shadow artists became so, 'after' getting caught and put to "the choice".

[Malken]

I've played random joke merchants in Tuluk who were never bards/seekers/respected members of society. I was probably better at various ... performances then some bards at the time, but I still did not have the influence and respect that they did. Only difference? I'm just a dude who sings ditties, and they are bards, parts of an organization and tradition of Tuluk. Same goes for shadow runners. You can steal crap to your hearts content, until you get caught and get your hands cut off. Or ... you can be a shadow artist.  I wonder how many shadow artists became so, 'after' getting caught and put to "the choice".

Then I would think that Tuluk would have thousands of so-called shadow artists, considering that most, if not all elves have done some pickpocketing at some point or another in their life.

I would also think that at least 1/4 of them would have been caught at some point for petty theft, and seriously doubt that they all have their hands cut off or given a choice they can't refuse.

[Dar]

I'd debate, but the point of the thread is to improve the concept of legalized crime in Tuluk. So I wont argue.

[Malken]

I'd debate, but the point of the thread is to improve the concept of legalized crime in Tuluk. So I wont argue.

Fair enough, I'm mostly confused about the whole thing so I'll step away and wait till there's more information about it all

[hyzhenhok]

Bah. If you're a wannabe "shadow artist" and you want to get licensed, you're a nobody and it can be annoying to set up that meeting with the templarate. Getting yourself arrested is basically the best way to do it.

[OnlyChicken]

Crime in Tuluk has always been licensed, so I'm not sure what the confusion is about.  This is only a model that gives us clear cut lines on who you can take a license on, and creates accountability for the Templars who dish those out.

Gone are the days of Joe Commoner, a salt-grebbing nobody, cotton-picking your way to ordering a hit on that partisan Seeker because they made a quip about your dull wit in the Sanctuary, and it goes through because the Templar who did your license is enemies with said Seeker's patron.

This is an improvement on the old system.

And you're worried about getting a contract against your PC's friend/sibling/lover?  I hate to ruin your Care Bear fantasy, but that's the kind of conflict on which this game thrives.  Don't play with fire if you don't want to get burned.

I do think there should be more oversight on what artist is selected to do the job.  A Templar sabotaging a contract, for instance, would be making a mockery of Tuluki culture by creating an opportunity for failure and risking a "public scene".  Punishment for such an act should range from being shamed and labeled incompetent, and after repeat offenses, being relieved of their duties as a broker (and therefore taking a hit to a viable source of income).  To make this easier, if an artist fails?  The Templar fails.

[Irulan]

Crime in Tuluk has always been licensed, so I'm not sure what the confusion is about.  This is only a model that gives us clear cut lines on who you can take a license on, and creates accountability for the Templars who dish those out.

Crime has always been licensed, but it has not always been *contracted*. The new docs specifically say that all thievery is to be done under contract or not at all. Under the current system thieves are licensed, but that is it. They aren't really followed, and basically it just means if they end up getting caught thieving, then they will get less of a penalty than if they weren't licensed. Getting contracted to perform said thievery is a different thing. I'm not saying it is a bad change, it is just a change that is a little bit confusing to me. I feel like it is a little be unrealistic that zero stealing or burglarizing would take place without a contract, especially to those that are poor or starving. I wouldn't mind if that part of the docs was a little bit more explicit.

[OnlyChicken]

Then perhaps I misunderstood this, as well.  In the current system, you buy a license for assassination, and it's a one and done.  It is more or less a contract killing.  For thievery, yes, it is an umbrella license that makes you a state sponsored thief.  Now, you must acquire a contract for each individual theft, correct?

But that doesn't change much.  The poor and elven will continue to steal, and they will do their damnedest not to get caught.  It would be culturally instilled in them to not be overt or do something that would risk getting caught, right?

But there's a core difference here.  This is petty theft.  The other is contracted theft.  You might see them as analogous to the person stealing a Snickers from the corner store and that jewel thief who breaks into a museum to nab that rare diamond.

[Irulan]

I went back and read the FAQ again, and I think I misunderstood it the first time. It wasn't really saying that nobody would ever commit thievery, it was just saying that it would be illegal to do so and would incur more penalties if caught. I'm cleared up a little bit.

[Jherlen]

And you're worried about getting a contract against your PC's friend/sibling/lover?  I hate to ruin your Care Bear fantasy, but that's the kind of conflict on which this game thrives.  Don't play with fire if you don't want to get burned.

The only character I can see being willing to carry out a job against a lover/friend/family member is a total sociopath. It's great if people want to play one, but that probably shouldn't be the only type of shadow artist that's workable. It'd be really cliche if every shadow artist ends up being That Guy -- you know, the dark, solitary, brooding, dangerous-glance-emoting "I'm not an assassin but I'm toooooootally an assassin" dude who sits in taverns not talking at all while he drinks his ale ominously, then stands up and raises the hood on his skull-embroidered greatcloak and slips off into the night.

You should be able to be a shadow artist, have some friends, have a life in the city, without being That Guy.

By the way, OnlyChicken, you could ditch the hyperbole a bit and post on your normal account. It wouldn't kill you.

[BadSkeelz]

Perhaps institute a "I know this man" type rule, where a Shadow Artist may refuse a contract, but must also keep any information to themselves, and not try to interfere when the contract goes to another?

[Malken]

Well, for one, I thought that being recognized as a Master Assassin would be something of pride, akin to being known as a great Bard.. And that people would recognize you as such and show you the respect that comes with it.

And why wouldn't someone want to be friends or lovers with a Master Assassin? That person stands the same chance of being assassinated whether they are mated with that assassin or not.

So as much as I understand the assassin being reluctant to take a contract to kill his sweetheart, I really don't see why someone would not want to be in a relationship with a recognized artist.

Again, that person stands as much chance to be assassinated in the end whether she is mated with an assassin or not, the only difference is that she shares the honor of her mate's reputation.

That person is not a murderous freak, that person is a known and celebrated contracted "artist", working to free His Awesome City of all evil-doers within.

[Molten Heart]

Well, for one, I thought that being recognized as a Master Assassin would be something of pride, akin to being known as a great Bard.. And that people would recognize you as such and show you the respect that comes with it.

And why wouldn't someone want to be friends or lovers with a Master Assassin? That person stands the same chance of being assassinated whether they are mated with that assassin or not.

So as much as I understand the assassin being reluctant to take a contract to kill his sweetheart, I really don't see why someone would not want to be in a relationship with a recognized artist.

Again, that person stands as much chance to be assassinated in the end whether she is mated with an assassin or not, the only difference is that she shares the honor of her mate's reputation.

That person is not a murderous freak, that person is a known and celebrated contracted "artist", working to free His Awesome City of all evil-doers within.

It might also depend on how many capable assassin shadow artist PCs are active.

[Jherlen]

The question isn't so much why anyone else would want to have relations with a Master Assassin, Malken -- you make some great points -- the question is why such a person themself would want to place their art or trade above their loved ones. Some people might, but some might not - by not allowing any avenue of refusal, the system as proposed pretty much ensures that anyone not fully devoted to Tuluk above all else and the artistry of their trade probably wouldn't be a shadow artist. And the people that -are- fanatical devotees, well, they probably have their niche in Tuluk just fine.

[Sayyadina]

I share a lot of the excitement and concerns already mentioned in this thread, and I have others as well.

THE LIKES

Documentation and Clarification!

IIRC this system is basically the same as the old (except with the double blind method of hiring artists which was always an option but now always the case), and it's documented much better.

Independent of the specifics of the system, I think that having public documentation about the contracting system for sneaks will encourage more use by the playerbase.  Previously I think most players were uncertain of how it was supposed to work, and what would or wouldn't land them in hot water, but now having clear public documentation should lead to much more use.

Social status means something!

I really like that there is more emphasis on caste and social status now.

BTW, I think the social status thing is very good. If it was more fleshed out and official in the docs it would give people motivation to rise up in the ranks of GMHs and Noble Houses.

Totally agreed.  The social status system of Tuluk is one of my favorite parts of the northern culture and with these changes then social status will actually affect behavior.  I'm thrilled!


THE DISLIKES

All those mandates.

The templar is mandated to accept any and all contracts provided the contracting agent has the proper status and money, the templar is mandated to not futz with the choosing of the "shadow artist" to execute the contract, the executing sneaky-type is mandated to accept any and all contracts, the executing sneaky-type is mandated to speak of the contract to nobody, and sneaky-types are all mandated to be independent of everyone when they reach high levels, even independent of their patron/employer.

I feel this will cut down on RP at each mandated step in the process above.  There's no weighing of risks and benefits before taking out a contract, no give and take between contracting agent and sneaky-type or contracting agent and templar, and so on.  All these interactions are drastically reduced.

The incentives for patrons/employers to hire sneaky-types are far outweighed by the disincentives.

Furthermore, why would you want to patron a shadow artist? ... ... Why pour in all that effort?

Because you'd be able to use them for contracts if you wanted to do so.

I agree that this IS an incentive for a patron or employer to hire a sneaky-type, but I just think it's a very small incentive.  After all, why does Chosen Lady Dasari care if the sneaky-type that the templarate compels to complete her contract is her own partisan/employee or not?  The templarate is mandated to pick a sneaky-type sufficient to the contract's task, right?  And that sneaky-type chosen by the templarate is mandated to accept the mission.  So Chosen Lady Dasari gets a competent sneaky-type for her mission either way.

That's the only (small) advantage that I see for a patron/employer to hire a sneaky-type, but the disadvantages are many.

1. Interviewing, hiring, equipping, and training sneaky-types isn't easy.  It takes money and, more importantly, it takes a lot of OOC time and energy on the part of the leader PC.
2. You're training up PCs that can be put to use by your rivals, maybe not directly against you at first, but to further the goals of your rivals in other ways.
3. Your sneaky-type underling will eventually be required to take jobs directly against you if they rise to a high enough level.
4. If your sneaky-type underling fails publicly in a task then it reflects badly on YOU.  Remember, your underling sneaky-type PC can't refuse any contract given to her, so if she fails miserably at a contract initiated by your rival or anybody else it will still hurt you and it won't touch the contracting agent at all because of the anonymity of the system.

So why bother?  There's a teensy upside and major downsides.  Let someone else go through the trouble and expense of hiring, cultivating, and equipping those sneaky-types.  Let someone else run the risk of their sneaky-types failing publicly at a mission.  You can just sit back and let the other PC leaders go through the trouble of all that work... but you can still put their hard work to your own use because of the mandates.  It's the Tragedy of the (Red Sun?) Commons: all leader PCs will want sneaky-types around to execute their compulsory contracts brokered by the templarate, but no PC leaders will want to personally go through the trouble of hiring and training PC sneaky-types.

The changes undermine the power of leaders and clans (except the templarate).

One route to coded influence in the game is for PC leaders and clans to build their own bevy of sneaky-types to do their bidding.  That advantage is (or was) what makes all the costs, headaches, and risks of cultivating PC sneaky-types ultimately worth it.  But with these changes everyone will have greatly increased access to the services of sneaky-types, nullifying any advantage that the hard work of the PC leaders and clans put into recruiting their own sneaky forces.  Why would anyone fear House Sneaksalot over any other House, if any of the Houses can just as easily hire several burglars (including a few from House Sneaksalot invariably!) to harass their rivals?  What leverage would House Sneaksalot have for their sneaky services if literally anyone can anonymously contract sneaky-types to do their work with the knowledge that the templarate must broker their contract in good faith?

PC to PC roleplay has little role in policing the system.

This post

Even Templars have clear and superior masters:  their higher ranking templars and ultimately, the Sun King.  And if Old Boy Muk says, "this is how it is" any Templar who disagrees is going to disappear themselves.  Or, they can try and find wiggle room and risk being vanished for their decision.  They too, get to suffer.  So great!

My point applies to things beyond assassination though. If I want to hire a shadow artist to steal Talia's diamond necklace, how do I negotiate for a better artist if I don't know what artist I'm hiring? If I pay the Templar 3000 coins, what guarantee do I have that he isn't going to go set Amos the Day One Burglar on the job? If I'm a 30-Days-Played Burglar and I'm getting contracted to steal things for 200 coins, how do I know the Templar isn't pocketing another 2800? What is my motivation to operate within the system if I'm proficient enough to operate outside it without being caught AND with the power to negotiate my own fees?

Then the Templar is an idiot and I'm sure he will be dealt with eventually by his superiors.

Because of the way the system is set up, it seems that the only way that a templar PC would run afoul of the system is from an Imm intervening, which the quotes above both suggest.  There's no way for a contracting agent PC to know if they're being ripped off , screwed, or ignored by the PC templar and there's no way for a contracted sneaky-type PC to know if they're being ripped off or being sent to their death by the templar PC.  If the contracting agent and the "shadow artist" are both in the dark there's no way for their RP to provide a counterbalance, however small, to the major leverage that the templarate will have.  The many mandates seem to be in place to promote OOC trust in the system despite all the IC and OOC secrecy and reliance on the templarate PCs as brokers.  This is a personal preference, but I would rather see a system that relies less on secret Imm enforcement of mandates and more on roleplay between PCs providing the majority of the counterbalance.

Whew, I'm tired and it's late so I'll have to share my additional questions and suggestions later.

P.S. Still stoked about the concept of Tuluki Kanly.

edit:  one "hire" changed to "contract" for clarity

[Riev]

I'd be more interested to see the non-lethal "message sending" situations. Its not very "Tuluki" to mug someone, or to beat them down in the street because they spat near a Winrothol or whatever. Tuluk is very about snide comments, and things happening out of the way.


Which is why, I thought, the "Assassination Contracts" were the only thing you could do in Tuluk. Otherwise, it was Bard's territory. I mean, who would deface someone's home? Not a true Tuluki, for sure, that'd be too obvious! They'd add something in, that didn't match the decor, and snicker the next time they were at the bar.

[Malken]

It might also depend on how many capable assassin shadow artist PCs are active.

But then you would just be dismissing the hundred of other virtual shadow artists that might be working in the city, even if there's only 1 active shadow artist PC present.

and Jherlen, I totally understand your point and agree with it, I was mostly making a point to those who said that if the shadow artist couldn't refuse a contract, then no one in their right mind would want any friendship/relationship with them

[OnlyChicken]

By the way, OnlyChicken, you could ditch the hyperbole a bit and post on your normal account. It wouldn't kill you.

Who is using hyperbole here?  Your "That Guy" rant takes the cake.

Anyway ...

At the very minimum, you have that classic killer-with-a-conscious scene that ends in "Run.  Leave the city, and don't ever come back.  I SAID GO!!  *cue emotional soundtrack*"

I would take a scenario where a player is forced to be creative in resolving a conflict over the "white picket fences, two kids and a tregil" scenario any day of the week.  That's me.  That might not be your cup of tea, but you don't have to play a Shadow Artist, though, do you?

Furthermore, doesn't rejecting a contract compromise the solvency of the system?  Now, you can go and warn your friend.  They slip the next assassin, and the system fails.  Your reputation is ruined, and you're likely the new guest of honor at a half-giant hackfest.

And maybe, just maybe, there are assassins who do make attachments, but value their loyalty to country over their loyalty to personal attachments.  A belief in a higher cause.  You don't have to be that lone wolf badass cliche to make that work.  You don't even have to be a sociopath.  I would even suggest the roleplay of dealing with your grief of having to perform such an act could be quite an experience.

How many mafia movies have you seen where some soldier has to off one of his pals?  Actually, how many mafia movies have you seen where that doesn't happen?

And no, I won't post on my normal account.  It certainly won't kill me.  I certainly don't have to.

[Molten Heart]

It might also depend on how many capable assassin shadow artist PCs are active.

But then you would just be dismissing the hundred of other virtual shadow artists that might be working in the city, even if there's only 1 active shadow artist PC present.

Of course there are many virtual people in the game, but they don't really effect other players directly (at least not regularly).  If there's only one active shadow artist PC that's an assassin and someone takes out a contract on their lover, who's the assassin for the contract going to be?  I'm sure staff could, if the templarate didn't want to approach this PC assassin, create some npc to do the job, but this seems problematic.