Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Nyr]

The "can't refuse contracts" is an artist provision. Were either of these scenarios to play out, we can go with one of a few things:

1. It doesn't matter; rules are rules.
2. The broker controls enough in the situation that they can delay it.
3. That will cost you enough to get us some new spies in place.

We will definitely do some more work on it.

As for templars and these scenarios, OK. Cool. Now consider a scenario where templars run the system by these rules.

[Nyr]

I will need to pick back up tomorrow. Thanks for the feedback so far, and again, you will be helping make the documentation better (even if what you prefer is not added).

[Kryos]

The idea that Templars are not able to save pets from retribution, I feel, is a good thing.  People will be more encouraged to be very careful about whose toes they openly step on.  And makes the system of 'quiet' retribution with non-lethal action more heavily played upon, opening up bigger plots and spats that last years, not just until you greb enough salt to buy a contract.

As a middle ground, for particularly valued people who have gone and done stupid things, perhaps they can opt to put in a buyout.  Where the intended victim is told by their templar that a) cease and desist b) pay for their grievance(an amount that they likely cannot afford, meaning they must turn to a master for help or more humorously be abandoned), or they don't walk out of the meeting.

This would allow for a measure of discretion, and a chance to betray and corrupt during and after trying to scramble to cover your behind.

[HavokBlue]

One more thing that comes to mind:

If the agent generally has no idea who the artist is, is the Templar in the deal responsible for negotiating the artists cost? Will there be a system in place to ensure that more reputable successful shadow artists are getting rewarded more for their work?

[Jherlen]

Since the system is double-blind, the broker has all the power in negotiating the cost and the artist. So depending who you're after and how the templar feels about it, you might get Nightshade Silentstrike the unparalleled assassin to do your contract for 200 sid (because he can't refuse anyway), or you might get charged 5000 sid for Amos the tall, muscular 0-day burglar. This is why it seems like the broker shouldn't be a political entity so that contracting agents can at least entertain an illusion of fairness and impartiality.

.... or, you get fed up with this system and go hire yourself a REAL criminal, negotiating the hit yourself, at a price you want to pay, knowing who's going to do your dirty work, because you don't trust the Faithful to be in the middle of things. If you really wanted someone dead in Tuluk, what would you rather do?

[Taven]

If an artist can refuse contracts, it increases the chances of the target finding out (regardless of the contract's goal). That is one reason for no refusal.

Right - but is that so bad? An artist who spills the beans on a contract is a bad artist and can't be trusted with any future work. The templars will have Ways of figuring out who the leak was and closing it. That all sounds like great avenues for intrigue that shouldn't be shut down oocly via documentation.

Refusal also means that there is a small chance a contract just won't get done because no artist wants to do it. That does not serve the system so well.

If no one wants to do it, maybe that's a sign that the contracting agent needs to make the offer sweeter or less difficult. Once again that seems like a good thing to me, because it makes the negotiation aspect a bit more dynamic?

I think there should be a way for an artist to have a "buy out". This is similar to what Malken suggests, but perhaps it could also include countering in coin or something. Coin, favors, some way that extremely rarely someone could refuse a contract.

The idea that Templars are not able to save pets from retribution, I feel, is a good thing.  People will be more encouraged to be very careful about whose toes they openly step on.  And makes the system of 'quiet' retribution with non-lethal action more heavily played upon, opening up bigger plots and spats that last years, not just until you greb enough salt to buy a contract.

Okay, so they can't refuse having a pet killed, but what about killing the shit out of whoever hurt their pet? It seems like a big risk, because even if a templar is forced to sit back and watch someone useful to them die... Are there really going to be no repercussions for the person who contracted the hit? Even if you hire a templar other then the one who's favorite it was, that's no guarantee that the templar whose favorite just died wouldn't find out. They're templars with more means then the average Amos.

[Kryos]

If the person asking has equal or more importantly low status Taven, I think not.  Again, this forces people to lean towards non-lethal solutions first, trying to send the message, as Nyr says.  And since that would promote and prolong conflict:  great.

[Delirium]

While I'm agreeing with a lot of what Jherlen says, I think you guys are focusing too much on assassinations.

Think outside the box beyond the knife!

[Cutthroat]

Yeah, the main benefit of this system is exactly what Nyr and Kyros said. The old system goes from zero to killing, the new system offers viable opportunities for extended conflict and plotting.

[Jherlen]

While I'm agreeing with a lot of what Jherlen says, I think you guys are focusing too much on assassinations.

Think outside the box beyond the knife!

Fair point. Still, though, I can't always see a templar being like "oh sure, go right on ahead and embarass/steal from/maim/break the heart of my partisan, I'm sure it won't affect their work for me at all." Ditto for less-than-lethal contracts against people close to a shadow artist.

Right-of-refusal (or a buyout option) + non-(PC)-templar brokership and I think this could go somewhere. Otherwise I worry it's not going to have the impact or adoption in Tuluk people are hoping for.

[Kryos]

Behave (or don't get caught misbehaving) or suffer and die?  I think that will have a *big* impact.  In some ways, it'll be more brutal than Allanak.

[HavokBlue]

While I'm agreeing with a lot of what Jherlen says, I think you guys are focusing too much on assassinations.

Think outside the box beyond the knife!

My point applies to things beyond assassination though. If I want to hire a shadow artist to steal Talia's diamond necklace, how do I negotiate for a better artist if I don't know what artist I'm hiring? If I pay the Templar 3000 coins, what guarantee do I have that he isn't going to go set Amos the Day One Burglar on the job? If I'm a 30-Days-Played Burglar and I'm getting contracted to steal things for 200 coins, how do I know the Templar isn't pocketing another 2800? What is my motivation to operate within the system if I'm proficient enough to operate outside it without being caught AND with the power to negotiate my own fees?

[Taven]

Yeah, the main benefit of this system is exactly what Nyr and Kyros said. The old system goes from zero to killing, the new system offers viable opportunities for extended conflict and plotting.

While I'm agreeing with a lot of what Jherlen says, I think you guys are focusing too much on assassinations.

Think outside the box beyond the knife!

Of course there are lots of options other then assassinations, and lots of other ways to send messages. Those can lead to great conflict and RP, because when someone is dead, that kind of stops anything further (at least with that individual). And it is interesting that the system allows for a lot more non-lethal possibilities.

The reason that assassination is being focused on so much is that when killing people happens that things reach a level where the system might not work. I've got a lot of faith that the templars can broker other people's murders, but nobody likes to have to kill their own dudes. Unless you make some sort of rule like "Templars cannot look into assassinations of their own dudes if it was a contract, or terrible things happen to them", then that could work--if the citizens all also knew about it.

[Kryos]

Yeah, the main benefit of this system is exactly what Nyr and Kyros said. The old system goes from zero to killing, the new system offers viable opportunities for extended conflict and plotting.

While I'm agreeing with a lot of what Jherlen says, I think you guys are focusing too much on assassinations.

Think outside the box beyond the knife!

Of course there are lots of options other then assassinations, and lots of other ways to send messages. Those can lead to great conflict and RP, because when someone is dead, that kind of stops anything further (at least with that individual). And it is interesting that the system allows for a lot more non-lethal possibilities.

The reason that assassination is being focused on so much is that when killing people happens that things reach a level where the system might not work. I've got a lot of faith that the templars can broker other people's murders, but nobody likes to have to kill their own dudes. Unless you make some sort of rule like "Templars cannot look into assassinations of their own dudes if it was a contract, or terrible things happen to them", then that could work--if the citizens all also knew about it.

I hate to use one liners, so I'll expand, after, but "Welcome to Armageddon."

If you're a registered artist, the reality of your life is that anyone you might hold dear may one day be under your knife.  And that feels particularly right for this game, doesn't it?

[LauraMars]

I have to agree with what other people in the thread are saying - I can't really see a templar realistically being cool with a contract of ANY kind being taken out on their partisan, despite being told by staff that they have to be.  Even if the contract is "throw a dung pie in Holten Irofel's face while he's at a competition to make him look bad in public because he spat on my shoes the other day," I think it's more likely they'd do what they can to stop it or hamper it in some way, because that's how politics works - no templar wants to lose face, which is what would happen if someone moved against their partisan.

Anyway to switch topics slightly, let's be hypothetical some more and say the following happens:

There's 3 Shadow Artist pcs registered in the city - one of them happens to be an accomplished assassin, say a Journeyman Shadow Artist. The other two are thief and/or spy types who won't do wet work.  For an unrelated reason, Chosen Lord Winrothol is furious with Journeyman Assassasin because her cover story is that she's the bard of his political rival and she wrote a mean song about him.  He goes to his local templar and takes out a contract on her TO KILL HER because he's the laughingstock of the city now and is too dumb to know how to deal with it any other way.

What happens?

Does the templar, not being able to refuse a contract:

a) Tell one of the two thiefly types to kill the assassin, even though it's not their specialty
b) Arrest and disappear the assassin for being so politically clumsy
c) Inform Winrothol that shadow artists are immune to contracts (are they?) and blow Journeyman Assassin's cover
d) Comic fourth option ("For your final contract, you must KILL YOURSELF")

?

[Kryos]

This post

Even Templars have clear and superior masters:  their higher ranking templars and ultimately, the Sun King.  And if Old Boy Muk says, "this is how it is" any Templar who disagrees is going to disappear themselves.  Or, they can try and find wiggle room and risk being vanished for their decision.  They too, get to suffer.  So great!

[Taven]

I hate to use one liners, so I'll expand, after, but "Welcome to Armageddon."

If you're a registered artist, the reality of your life is that anyone you might hold dear may one day be under your knife.  And that feels particularly right for this game, doesn't it?

Well, I mean... If you're lifesworn to Winrothol, and your mate or friend pisses them off, it could suck for you. If you're a legionnaire, and your beloved breaks the law, could suck for you. If you're in Tenneshi and your mate messes up, Tenneshi could order you to do terrible things!

If you're a Mastershadow artist, any of the above get pissed off, and it sucks for you. Hell, depending on who your mate is (if they are an indie hunter) some indie hunter could get pissed off at your mate, and, wow, sucks for you.

If I'm going to be forced into murder and betrayal, I wanted it to not be by any random dude in the whole city, you know?

[LauraMars]

I hate to use one liners, so I'll expand, after, but "Welcome to Armageddon."

If you're a registered artist, the reality of your life is that anyone you might hold dear may one day be under your knife.  And that feels particularly right for this game, doesn't it?

Well, I mean... If you're lifesworn to Winrothol, and your mate or friend pisses them off, it could suck for you. If you're a legionnaire, and your beloved breaks the law, could suck for you. If you're in Tenneshi and your mate messes up, Tenneshi could order you to do terrible things!

If you're a Mastershadow artist, any of the above get pissed off, and it sucks for you. Hell, depending on who your mate is (if they are an indie hunter) some indie hunter could get pissed off at your mate, and, wow, sucks for you.

If I'm going to be forced into murder and betrayal, I wanted it to not be by any random dude in the whole city, you know?

I guess that's when you have to make a choice.  Do the job, or pack up the kids and run away to Red Storm.  And it isn't against the rules to choose the latter, as far as I know.

[Kryos]

True, but, this system *does* have some wiggle room.  There's nothing saying a Templar couldn't gladly inform a victim they'd better take out a contract, and, since there's delay, discretely manage to have the option for the goof ball trying to murder someone for some trivial matter disappear first.  Or purposefully hire a failed and incompetent artist, setting them up to fail.  And so on.

They *technically* did their job, after all.

[Dar]

A few suggestions, thoughts, concerns, and commentaries.

One.

Would it be possible to create a board somewhere, in some ritual place. That board will be flagged as unreadable by everyone, except the templarate. But it would be possible to post there by 'anyone'. The first thing a person does to set up the contract is going to that board and posting in it something simple. "<Insert title> Amos seeks the Templarate's help, in order to hire a shadowrunner ... I mean, shadow artist, for a job on <insert victim's name here>.   There might be some default phrases, or it can be detailed, doesn't matter.

The reasoning for this is simple. This board will be read by 'all' templars. And if the templar chooses to 'lose' the paperwork. His rival templars will snitch him/her out in a heart beat. Add some massive punishment to a Templar who got found out to be cheating the system, and we're good to go.

Two.

Would it be possible to create some kind of a ritualized conversation that happens between a Templar and the Shadowrunner (Come on, Nyr. Admiiiit it ... you've been playing shadowrunner). Arghem. Anyway. A ritualized conversation that would briefly and vaguely describe the type of a job, certain caveats, and the danger level of the victim.

Templar: You are called upon a Task.
Shadow: I listen to the call.
Templar: The task of great cunning and stealth, no trace, no sight in your wake.  (The job is a stealthy one. No playing on the public, no need to reveal yourself or be caught).  The task is of great artistry, every move fluid, His city in awe of your performance (The job has showmanship elements. Possibilities/requirements of being revealed, etc). The task of great complexity, cunning and wisdom will be your guides. (It's up to the artist, how it will be done. The job is a hard one and not standard. Pay Hike)
Shadow: I hear the call.
Templar: The hunt is for the vestric/tandu/duskhorn/raptor/gwoshi/kryl/bahamet (The difficulty of the victim. It's very vague and really depends on the judgement of the templar.)
Shadow: I hear the call.
Templar: The hunt elusive, but sometimes seen in early days/late days. (This is iffy, but basically ... the victim plays early in the day/ middle of the day/late in the day? I dont like it myself ,but there MUST be SOMETHING like that in consideration somehow. Sometimes people simply can NOT meet another person due to IRL time belts difference).
Shadow: I heard the call and I am ready.

At any point until the Shadow Runner says he is ready, he can refuse the contract. There might be some ritual phrase like "I see another prey and I am drawn to it". Or whatever really. The point is, the shadow runner refuses the task without hearing any details. A shadow runner may for example prefer stealth work, or prefer loud work, or he hears the word 'kryl/bahamet', and realizes the Templar's trying to freaking kill him.

This 'could' affect the speed with which a shadowrunner can progress from rank to rank. But 'not' overly so, because ... sometimes it's just something a person is not great at and the Templar who approached him failed to see this. Obviously, normally the Templars should be wiser and pick the shadowrunners with appropriate skills. But sometimes, they will not have that much of a selection.

I also think that it should be possible for a shadow artist to refuse the contract even after hearing the job, but with massive punishments. And not in terms of coin either, but something like ... a year's exile. Or an indefinite exile until he performs an act of great valour in an enemy city. Or perhaps the punishment of BOREDOM, where he is to go to the territory that requires watch and spends a year there, reporting in. Which I guess could be linked to exile. Basically something that seriously benefits Tuluk, and prevents the artist from refusing it willy nilly. Fines will not do it. Slicing off arms and tongues would be wasteful. If it was possible to do something like for example, block the artist's ability to use the way until his exile is over, it would also be kinda cool.

It might also be possible to make the rejection ability vary by the rank. An apprentice can refuse a contract during the rituyal. A Journeyman can refuse the contract during and after details are given out. Master can not refuse a contract 'period'. But the Templar suffers massive punishments should he/she get a Master artist killed by giving him a job that's obviously unsuited to him/her. Wasting City Resources, that is!

Some Scenarios.

Training backstab can be very awkward sometimes. Especially for Celves who dont leave the city. Before, Akai Sjir, or whomever could explore Undertuluk and 'defend' themselves, or whatever. Now, it's different. Would it potentially be possible for a patron to make a 'broad' contract for his partisan?  Like say ... A patron wishes to create some sense of danger in the warrens, making their populace choose to cling and respect the legionnaires more. So he hires his partisan through the Templarate, to simulate that danger. This may involve ... a lot of murders, actually.

Some assassinations. (90% of them in my case), are done by more then one person. Sometimes people dont know I exist and they're helping me kill the dude, sometimes they're following my instructions. I find that type of killing to be very fun, since it involves a great many people in little or large ways. Even if it's as simple as hiring a whore to lure a dude into an apartment.

But your type of 'no talking about a contract' kind of prevents this, doesnt it? Every artist seems to require to be a loner, since these things should not be talked about. And if you impliment a system where a shadow runner who gets the job, goes right back to the Templar to hire a 'whore' shadow runner, and 'flasher' shadow runner, and 'pickpocket' shadow runner. Suddenly, something that a group of 3-4 vagrants could scheme, discuss, and carry out in a single day evening, turns into a 7 day ordeal, where the Templar is seeking all these people out.

[Malken]

My point applies to things beyond assassination though. If I want to hire a shadow artist to steal Talia's diamond necklace, how do I negotiate for a better artist if I don't know what artist I'm hiring? If I pay the Templar 3000 coins, what guarantee do I have that he isn't going to go set Amos the Day One Burglar on the job? If I'm a 30-Days-Played Burglar and I'm getting contracted to steal things for 200 coins, how do I know the Templar isn't pocketing another 2800? What is my motivation to operate within the system if I'm proficient enough to operate outside it without being caught AND with the power to negotiate my own fees?

Then the Templar is an idiot and I'm sure he will be dealt with eventually by his superiors.

[Law&Order]

1. 

Similarly, the templarate is brokering the contract to the artist, and will not punish an artist for fulfilling a contract as given. If a contract does call for more unusual practices, the templar providing the contract will go over it carefully with the artist to be sure they understand how it works. There is art to be found in any number of practices. 

Templar to dwarven Shadow Artist:  The contract as it is stated requires that you engage sexually, dwarf, with this half elf, while wearing a conical hat and a fake mustache, for political reasons, and only then once you've done this twice, and after the second act of sexual congress, you must sing The Wisdom of Trees by Methyas Groot before enacting the kill armed only with forks.  Mind you, this is to be done precisely in this manner, to make the most appropriate statement possible.  You cannot say no, dwarf.  In return you get four hundred coins now and another four hundred on completion of the job.

2. 

Artists are only granted the highest rank (master) with proven skill and evidenced dedication to the city-state of Tuluk. Artists of that rank are loyal to the city-state of Tuluk, and must be prepared to either sever ties with their patron...or to begin taking contracts against their patron. Patrons often dismiss partisans that achieve this rank precisely because their loyalty is no longer to the patron.

Who determines the changes in rank?  Is racial bias a method of hampering progress, as it should be?  Is there potential for bribing one's way into a higher status of artistry?  With a name like "Shadow Artist" does this preclude spies, informants, and non thief/burglar/assassin style workers of the system?  Why would a Surif wish to invest their time and energy into fostering a relationship with a potential Shadow Artist if they will only have such loyalty and service rewarded with a blank-eyed automaton who has no ability to back out of deals against their friends, employers and loved ones?

3.  With the social status chart being a more of a guideline than a living, breathing document to actually play off of and adhere to, will the onus be on the player of the Templar involved to be 100% certain of the social caste position for the individuals involved, or will there be some grandiose method of allowing the playerbase to be absolutely sure where they are in the social pecking order, so they cannot under any circumstances pull off a contract without help?

4.  How will non-citizen GMH employees be handled when it comes to being subject to a contract, does their status automatically reflect the relative position of one of their northern peers, or are they considered non-citizens who can be contracted against at any time?

5.  Will all contracts in this regard be restricted to Gol Krathu, or will contracts that take the artist abroad, not necessarily as far as Allanak, be forbidden?

6.  If this system is going to be reliant on status and power brokers willing to take the chances, isn't it perhaps time to open up the Surif on a much broader level than is currently being seen in Tuluk?

7. Will the templarate pcs have a recommended chart for rates or will it totally be at the discretion of the parties involved how much coin changes hands?

8.  Is the barter system allowed or is it all coin for contract?

9.  So the Shadow Artist can be known socially as a master burglar, who cannot talk to anyone about their jobs, and if they choose to, can show off their display of inks as a method of affirming their status and caste?   I this subtle?

10  With the Shadow Artists being sub-contractors for the City-State, will there be an established "artists union" being put in place to guide new players as well as veterans learning the system?

Just a couple questions while I consider eating dinner.

[Jherlen]

To those saying PC templars who buck this system will get dealt with by their superiors, I think that goes back to putting them in straightjackets. "This is what the docs say, this is how it is, and this is what you must do", says Muk (aka the staff).

In Allanak, everybody knows blue robes are corrupt as all hell and half are only paying lip service to Tek, and Tek doesn't care. Tek is so far above blue robes that he cares what they're doing about as much as we care about what the colony of ants in our back yard is up to. Muk should be the same way in Tuluk. Muk is a god-king and sees years pass by the way mortal people see days. He has way, way, way better things to do than crack down on low level templars who aren't upholding their duties to the sacred shadow artist rituals. The same can be said for black robes and red robes and the Tuluki equivalents on down to the level of PC templars, who are so unimportant to the power structure in the templarate that THEY are the ones getting stuck actually dealing with the common folks.

'nakki blue robes generally don't have much proscribed to them in terms of how they must deal with day-to-day things. What they do have is some hard-and-fast rules (kill any threats to the city such as defilers), and then wide latitude to do anything else they can get away with. I think that lack of rules works well to foster corruption, oppression, and brutality, and I'd like to see it in Tuluk too.

If on the other hand we say Tuluk's templars will be smacked down if they don't do things like this in very certain ways, even if that conflicts with their personal interests, we're cutting off ways for them to be corrupt and disloyal and generally Zalanthan. I think we all WANT them to be able to be corrupt bastards if they want to be. I sure do. But systems like this seem too rigid to allow that.

[Blur]

What is my motivation to operate within the system if I'm proficient enough to operate outside it without being caught AND with the power to negotiate my own fees?

You know there is a reason no real crime in Tuluk unlike allanak, and i think the reason for that is not only because Tuluk has no place like the rinth. Anyways what will probably motivate your character to choose to operate within the system is probably similar to those reasons. I think Lauramars said it best though:

One final thought: what happens to criminals who want to work outside the bounds of this system? What happens to people who work with/hire them?

THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE ELSE

Maybe. Its how its felt to me once in a while. There are still a lot of things changing so who knows.

[Dar]

In Allanak, entire societies are capable of thriving without ever needing to interact with a templar. Tuluk is different. They're two different cities. For this licensed thing to work, there has to be faith in that system. In the third doc about taking the contract out, it states "You have faith in the system" ... well, in Allanak, nobody has any faith in any system. There are no systems. They are two different cities.