Tuluk's Shadow Artists: Now With More Flavor

[Taven]

You absolutely can.  It says so.

You are right. I missed this:

Contracts provided by your patron may be discussed with the patron. This is considered a necessary part of training up the city-state's artists. However, contracts for other parties (which remain unknown to you) may not be discussed with anyone, including your patron.

I stand corrected for that point. This makes far more sense then the way I had understood it. 

I think adding a bullet point to the list on this page about the patron thing might be useful, although I realize that it does spell it out more over here.

Finally, why is the example of death a bard whose song you don't want to hear? It gives the impression that killing off bards because they sing a song you don't like is commonplace.

...that's not intended to be an example of death, I was thinking more of poisoning a bard with something that would keep them from performing rather than something that would keep them from living.  Maybe it can be made more clear.

Good deal.

[janeshephard]

That is actually close to correct. A skilled slave has more worth than an independent hunter.

Not to derail, but for what it's worth, we need this to become more apparent in the game. There's a lot of fun reasons to stay out on your own and jump on a plot bandwagon when you see it.

I know a quick way to do it: a life-sworn only bar Or more apparent restrictions if you're not clearly in a faction.

[Molten Heart]

While it might be a foolish choice, would Chosen or merchant house family members be able to be shadow artists?

[Jherlen]

And what happens if you take out a contract on the Templar's new pet/partisan? Paperwork goes missing? Is redirected against you? Oh, sure, the contract terms are correct, Mr. Amos. Why, I'll have it filed and notarized immediately. Don't you worry! Mwhahaha.

I guess Templars better not have pets or partisans they aren't willing to lose, eh?

This is the kind of thing I'm worried about when I see docs try and impose such a strict system like this. I'm sure templars will have pets and partisans they aren't willing to lose, unless they are robots with no emotions and value the abstract rules of a system more than they value something that gives them personal power and utility. There should be room for corrupt templars who "forget" contracts, or find out that another templar contracted somebody against their man, and that shadow agent disappears.

Likewise, as Taven said, there should be room for an artist who does value his work and his reputation over personal relationships, and is willing to kill his lover and family - but this type of person is most certainly a sociopath. That's fine! But as written, this stuff implies everybody in Tuluk who is a shadow artist is essentially a sociopath, and that there's no room for a character who is a skilled assassin or thief by trade, but also has some boundaries she isn't willing to cross or people she isn't willing to hurt.

Consider the other implications too. If you as a Tuluki know a shadow artist is obligated to kill/maim/embarass/steal from you as soon as a templar walks up and tells them, do you want to be associating with that person at all? It's one thing if you're not aware, but shadow artists get tattoos, so if you're that person's lover or family member you're probably gonna notice sooner or later. It seems like it would be very difficult to have meaningful social relationships while roleplaying a shadow artist, in addition to the sociopathic tendencies.

The problem isn't that shadow artists sound like that, it's that it sounds like this is all they'll realistically be able to be. That might be fun for some people, but it could be so much more if the absolutes were relaxed and some more variation were allowed in.

One final thought: what happens to criminals who want to work outside the bounds of this system? What happens to people who work with/hire them?

[Malken]

Hey Nyr, I think that you should also had an option where shadow artists could be information gatherers, where someone pays to have all the dirt and information gathered on someone else, and the fee paid could be in relation to the depth of the information gathered by the artist.

[palomar]

While it might be a foolish choice, would Chosen or merchant house family members be able to be shadow artists?

The Chosen are already exempt to most laws, so it'd probably make very little sense for one to be a shadow artist. They gain social status through other means after all. As for GMH family... It'd most likely be a quick way to reassignment, though maybe it'd still be a viable option in some cases.

One final thought: what happens to criminals who want to work outside the bounds of this system? What happens to people who work with/hire them?

They're criminals, like you said, and will probably be treated as such. That's how things are now. Working with a criminal, hiring them? That's bad from a social standing point of view. A lack of respect and appreciation of Tuluki tradition and law sounds like an unhealthy path to walk.

[HavokBlue]

One final thought: what happens to criminals who want to work outside the bounds of this system? What happens to people who work with/hire them?

I'm curious about this as well. It almost seems like there's no reason to be a lawless criminal when you can do all the same things for the Templarate (which is probably intentional but... I'd still like to see a real Tuluki criminal role flourish).

[LauraMars]

One final thought: what happens to criminals who want to work outside the bounds of this system? What happens to people who work with/hire them?

THE SAME THING THAT HAPPENS TO EVERYONE ELSE

[palomar]

And what happens if you take out a contract on the Templar's new pet/partisan? Paperwork goes missing? Is redirected against you? Oh, sure, the contract terms are correct, Mr. Amos. Why, I'll have it filed and notarized immediately. Don't you worry! Mwhahaha.

I guess Templars better not have pets or partisans they aren't willing to lose, eh?

This is the kind of thing I'm worried about when I see docs try and impose such a strict system like this. I'm sure templars will have pets and partisans they aren't willing to lose, unless they are robots with no emotions and value the abstract rules of a system more than they value something that gives them personal power and utility. There should be room for corrupt templars who "forget" contracts, or find out that another templar contracted somebody against their man, and that shadow agent disappears.

Likewise, as Taven said, there should be room for an artist who does value his work and his reputation over personal relationships, and is willing to kill his lover and family - but this type of person is most certainly a sociopath. That's fine! But as written, this stuff implies everybody in Tuluk who is a shadow artist is essentially a sociopath, and that there's no room for a character who is a skilled assassin or thief by trade, but also has some boundaries she isn't willing to cross or people she isn't willing to hurt.

Consider the other implications too. If you as a Tuluki know a shadow artist is obligated to kill/maim/embarass/steal from you as soon as a templar walks up and tells them, do you want to be associating with that person at all? It's one thing if you're not aware, but shadow artists get tattoos, so if you're that person's lover or family member you're probably gonna notice sooner or later. It seems like it would be very difficult to have meaningful social relationships while roleplaying a shadow artist, in addition to the sociopathic tendencies.

The problem isn't that shadow artists sound like that, it's that it sounds like this is all they'll realistically be able to be. That might be fun for some people, but it could be so much more if the absolutes were relaxed and some more variation were allowed in.

Not all Shadow Artists will be assassins by trade. Some will be various kinds of thieves etc. My understanding is that Shadow Artists must be ready to set their personal agendas aside and do what the Faithful require of them. Unaffiliated people involved with Shadow Artists who are either of another affiliation or unaffiliated will be at risk of being targeted. I think there's some paranoia related to associating with the current types of artists (thieves/assassins) already, and it will be more formalized with the new approach. It does seem limiting for those who have various moral boundries, I agree with that.

[janeshephard]

This is the kind of thing I'm worried about when I see docs try and impose such a strict system like this. I'm sure templars will have pets and partisans they aren't willing to lose, unless they are robots with no emotions and value the abstract rules of a system more than they value something that gives them personal power and utility. There should be room for corrupt templars who "forget" contracts, or find out that another templar contracted somebody against their man, and that shadow agent disappears.

One solution. Since His Legion is exempt from contract killings, all aides/partisans/whathaveyous end up as servants in His Legion or you're going to have a conflict of interest. Heck, you'll have that "recruit" in His Legion stay a recruit forever and just report to the one Faithful It's a little too brazen to do it that way though.

Likewise, as Taven said, there should be room for an artist who does value his work and his reputation over personal relationships, and is willing to kill his lover and family - but this type of person is most certainly a sociopath. That's fine! But as written, this stuff implies everybody in Tuluk who is a shadow artist is essentially a sociopath, and that there's no room for a character who is a skilled assassin or thief by trade, but also has some boundaries she isn't willing to cross or people she isn't willing to hurt.

This is a fair point. An artist should be able to say "sorry, not for me" but of course never mention that a hit is out or risk breaking the code.

Consider the other implications too. If you as a Tuluki know a shadow artist is obligated to kill/maim/embarass/steal from you as soon as a templar walks up and tells them, do you want to be associating with that person at all? It's one thing if you're not aware, but shadow artists get tattoos, so if you're that person's lover or family member you're probably gonna notice sooner or later. It seems like it would be very difficult to have meaningful social relationships while roleplaying a shadow artist, in addition to the sociopathic tendencies.

A master artist who is known to be a master artist would end up like Severian from The Shadow of the Torturer. No one would want to associate with him, and innkeepers would ask him to eat his food quickly and leave.

One final thought: what happens to criminals who want to work outside the bounds of this system? What happens to people who work with/hire them?

Tuluk is very oppressive of those who live without regard to its laws.


EDIT:

BTW, I think the social status thing is very good. If it was more fleshed out and official in the docs it would give people motivation to rise up in the ranks of GMHs and Noble Houses.

[manonfire]

I keep coming back to the notion that a Shadow Artist is the Tuluki version of a gemmer.

I'm curious how this affects PCs who operate under the current system.

If they're given a choice between doing the Shadow Artist thing and the alternative and they go for the latter, they suddenly find themselves existing outside the good graces of the templarate.

[HavokBlue]

I keep coming back to the notion that a Shadow Artist is the Tuluki version of a gemmer.

I'm kind of worried it will play out the same way, except using them as Seal Team Six Uber Hit Squad is no longer limited to the Templarate.

[Jherlen]

I keep coming back to the notion that a Shadow Artist is the Tuluki version of a gemmer.

That's a sort of good analogy. Gemmed, though, get their gems because they HAVE to, more or less, and while they can't really say no to templars directly, they can still hate them and avoid them. Shadow Artists sound like they do it because they WANT to work for the templars, and they're willing to place allegiance to the Faithful above everything else in their whole life up to and including their friends and loved ones. Moreover, they know whatever is asked they can't refuse, so while an "old school" criminal can laugh in someone's face if offered 200 sid for a very hard job, a Shadow Artist has to say okay I'll do it because you say so.

These sound like people who would end up working for templars anyway whether there was a formal system in place or not. Short of adding another way to play a fanatical devotee to Tuluk, what else is this adding to the city?

[palomar]

I keep coming back to the notion that a Shadow Artist is the Tuluki version of a gemmer.

I'm kind of worried it will play out the same way, except using them as Seal Team Six Uber Hit Squad is no longer limited to the Templarate.

Except that some will not be publicly known, and those who are publicly known will actually be able to work up a decent amount of social status/rank based on their accomplishments in the shadow arts. They won't be feared or shunned in the same way, though I suppose there could be some similarities.

[Nyr]

Shadow artists don't work for templars per se. They work for the contracting agent. They just don't know who that is. The templarate is the cutout between the two.

Some of the docs are not up that should be and some are mixed in with the templar stuff. I had better dig them out!

Will try to answer more after class. Thanks for the feedback, it should improve the final product.

[Cutthroat]

I personally like the fact that it makes social relationships more awkward. If you're in a "So I Mated A Shadow Artist" situation, shouldn't that make RP more interesting? And shouldn't it apply the same way if you're a shadow artist mated to a prime target? It adds a thick layer of conflict to an area where players on the GDB often bemoan the smiley-happy nature of it all.

[Bluefae]

I think this kind of clarification/updating to the Shadow Artist system is both due and welcome.  I also agree with many of Jherlen's points, particularly the difficulties in an Artist never being able to refuse a contract.

Not sure on the solution to that difficulty, though.

[Jherlen]

Shadow artists don't work for templars per se. They work for the contracting agent. They just don't know who that is. The templarate is the cutout between the two.

And the double-blind system with a broker in between the contractor and the agent is one of the parts of the system I like. When you make that broker explicitly the templarate, though, the question of who an agent is working for starts becoming academic. The templars are the ones telling them what they will be doing and how much they will be paid.  There is no room for negotiating the terms and no room for refusal on behalf of the artist. The former is fine, the latter is where it becomes way too restrictive. Loosening that part up to say the artist has the option to refuse (but must keep his silence), but artists who start refusing too many contracts will probably stop getting them, would go a long way.

The system also seems like it would benefit from a more neutral broker. Templars (at least PC templars) are typically anything but neutral when it comes to city politics, and I don't think we want to encourage them not to be. Are there alternatives to having templars administrate a system which could be used by their own enemies to work against them? Maybe a new, true-neutral templarate-backed, templarate-protected organization of some sort?

[Malken]

Maybe if instead of the shadow artist absolutely being unable to refuse a contract, they could be allowed to, but it would be seen as a loss of reputation depending on how ranked the artist was?

An apprentice shadow artist wouldn't lose much reputation by refusing a contract, but it would be "remembered" by the Templar, as opposed to a Master Artist who would take a much bigger hit to his reputation if they were to refuse one, seeing as how at this point their own loyalty would be to Tuluk first and above everything else.

[janeshephard]

Maybe if instead of the shadow artist absolutely being unable to refuse a contract, they could be allowed to, but it would be seen as a loss of reputation depending on how ranked the artist was?

An apprentice shadow artist wouldn't lose much reputation by refusing a contract, but it would be "remembered" by the Templar, as opposed to a Master Artist who would take a much bigger hit to his reputation if they were to refuse one, seeing as how at this point their own loyalty would be to Tuluk first and above everything else.

Nyr just said they wouldn't work for the Templars. The Templars are just brokers.

If you refuse a contract it should be like refusing work.

[Malken]

Maybe if instead of the shadow artist absolutely being unable to refuse a contract, they could be allowed to, but it would be seen as a loss of reputation depending on how ranked the artist was?

An apprentice shadow artist wouldn't lose much reputation by refusing a contract, but it would be "remembered" by the Templar, as opposed to a Master Artist who would take a much bigger hit to his reputation if they were to refuse one, seeing as how at this point their own loyalty would be to Tuluk first and above everything else.

Nyr just said they wouldn't work for the Templars. The Templars are just brokers.

If you refuse a contract it should be like refusing work.

If that's the case, then who decides who's an apprentice artist and who's a Master artist if the Templars are just truly neutral about it all?

[Nyr]

If an artist can refuse contracts, it increases the chances of the target finding out (regardless of the contract's goal). That is one reason for no refusal.

Refusal also means that there is a small chance a contract just won't get done because no artist wants to do it. That does not serve the system so well.

As for templars and neutrality...you are right. In general, templars have political bias. In this case, part of their job becomes brokering this system. That means making it work. It sounds as though you don't believe it or feel another group would handle it better. What exactly is the problem with the templarate running it if they run it by these guidelines?

[Nyr]

Maybe if instead of the shadow artist absolutely being unable to refuse a contract, they could be allowed to, but it would be seen as a loss of reputation depending on how ranked the artist was?

An apprentice shadow artist wouldn't lose much reputation by refusing a contract, but it would be "remembered" by the Templar, as opposed to a Master Artist who would take a much bigger hit to his reputation if they were to refuse one, seeing as how at this point their own loyalty would be to Tuluk first and above everything else.

Nyr just said they wouldn't work for the Templars. The Templars are just brokers.

If you refuse a contract it should be like refusing work.

If that's the case, then who decides who's an apprentice artist and who's a Master artist if the Templars are just truly neutral about it all?

The templarate, based on the quality of work of the artist as well as how much they have done. I already know I need to add more docs. Doh!

[janeshephard]

As for templars and neutrality...you are right. In general, templars have political bias. In this case, part of their job becomes brokering this system. That means making it work. It sounds as though you don't believe it or feel another group would handle it better. What exactly is the problem with the templarate running it if they run it by these guidelines?

Problems with Templars running it:

* It's time for a big battle. A northern born GMH Agent shows up and asks for a contract against a Noble's Sergeant (who also happens to be a fearsome warrior and a proven battle veteran). We're not talking internal politics anymore. Removing this Sergeant could hurt the tide of battle. This Sergeant kanked the Agent's mate and stole her.

* A Chosen Lord decides over the course of a month to pay heavily to have key employees removed from another Chosen Lord's House. The Templars are getting valuable information from these employees about southron plans.

I'd give you a third example, but I'm showing you ones that don't involve internal politics -- instead they relate to external threats. If contracts are never refused then a refusal would raise red flags (oh I wonder what that dude has that I don't?). Instead of an artist can refuse, the Templar can sit on the contract for a couple of weeks and then inform the buyer that a suitable artist can't be found for the job.

Of course this also means Templars won't put out contracts on friends and pets.

[Jherlen]

If an artist can refuse contracts, it increases the chances of the target finding out (regardless of the contract's goal). That is one reason for no refusal.

Right - but is that so bad? An artist who spills the beans on a contract is a bad artist and can't be trusted with any future work. The templars will have Ways of figuring out who the leak was and closing it. That all sounds like great avenues for intrigue that shouldn't be shut down oocly via documentation.

Refusal also means that there is a small chance a contract just won't get done because no artist wants to do it. That does not serve the system so well.

If no one wants to do it, maybe that's a sign that the contracting agent needs to make the offer sweeter or less difficult. Once again that seems like a good thing to me, because it makes the negotiation aspect a bit more dynamic?

As for templars and neutrality...you are right. In general, templars have political bias. In this case, part of their job becomes brokering this system. That means making it work. It sounds as though you don't believe it or feel another group would handle it better. What exactly is the problem with the templarate running it if they run it by these guidelines?

The problem is a few things. First, we keep referring to "the templarate" as if it's one entity that always mostly agrees with itself internally. In Tuluk past, that may or may not have been the case inside the two separate Orders, but now we don't have that. So, hopefully(!!) the Tuluki templarate is going to have internal strife and templars actively working against each other and each other's allies. It's really incongruous to me to think a Tuluki templar is going to participate in administering contracts against his own power base. If he has a lick of sense, the moment he hears that someone has put a job out to mess up his plans, he's going to counter it somehow.

Suppose I'm the templar approached by whoever to kill merchant Talia from your earlier example. You didn't know it, but Talia is my partisan, I'm propping her up and supporting her because I hate Salarr and their stupid high prices. Am I going to just happily take your money to kill Talia at a fair price and then give it to a shadow artist who's good enough to do the job well? Heck no. I'm going to charge you way more than Talia is worth, and/or I'm going to give the job to some dunce who I don't think can actually kill her, if I remember to give the job to anyone at all. Essentially I'm going to be doing everything I can to make the system not work. Because I'm a templar and I should be able to do that.

"Okay Jherlen," you say, "a good contracting agent will know relationships like that in advance and will pick the right templar to approach and set up the contract." Sure, that's a little better. But now we've admitted that templars will not always be receptive to putting contracts on people, which seems to go against the docs you've laid out, and makes the system a little less trustworthy from the perspective of someone who'd like to set a contract up.

My point is that the system could work one of three ways, and I only like one of those ways:

• Have shadow artists be brokered by some neutral party that's not immediately touchable by your everyday PC templar,
• Allow PC templars to administrate the system fully knowing that if they're smart, they're going to be bending and breaking the rules when it suits them (meaning it won't work nearly so cleanly as you seem to intend from the docs), or
• Force PC templars to do things "by the book", even if it means they're shooting themselves and their ambitions in the foot (which really does not sound very fun for them at all)

A neutral broker removes all these issues, and even lets PC templars participate themselves(!!) because both the agent and artist now know the broker has no stake in the game besides money.