Do you feel the love?

[charas]

I've noticed increased effort being made lately to attract new players to the mud. While this is undoubtedly very important, I wonder if enough effort is made to keep the veteran players, well, playing. And if not, what could be done to improve that?

Discuss. Or don't.

Cheers.

[Barzalene]

I've noticed increased effort being made lately to attract new players to the mud. While this is undoubtedly very important, I wonder if enough effort is made to keep the veteran players, well, playing. And if not, what could be done to improve that?

Discuss. Or don't.

Cheers.

Mid 2011 I left mad. I mean really mad. It started with an argument on the GDB. And while I don't mind if people disagree, I do mind being treated like an idiot. I think the single most important thing we can do for each other is pretend it's not the Internet and treat one another courteously. There are polite ways to differ and we should ( and I think over the years do) employ them.

With regards to play I think that we all need to self censor. Play the game in your mud-client and not your instant messenger.

[Marauder Moe]

Veteran players are largely subject to forces beyond anyone's control but their own: burnout, malaise, and general lifestyle changes that make it hard to find time/energy for Armageddon.

I think extended subguilds and skill bumps are a good way to let vets utilize their karma without necessarily playing supernatural classes, though.  The best change that could be made to those is make them coded/regular applications already.  (I also think for skill bumps you should be allowed as many bumps as you have karma/CGP, though possibly with limits on how many can go into any one skill and/or diminishing returns.  So skill bumps beyond the first X would cost 2 CGP instead of just one for some skills.)

[Marauder Moe]

Mid 2011 I left mad. I mean really mad. It started with an argument on the GDB. And while I don't mind if people disagree, I do mind being treated like an idiot. I think the single most important thing we can do for each other is pretend it's not the Internet and treat one another courteously. There are polite ways to differ and we should ( and I think over the years do) employ them.

With regards to play I think that we all need to self censor. Play the game in your mud-client and not your instant messenger.

Actually, this too.  I do know of a few players that quit the game angrily under circumstances that could have been handled better by all parties involved.

[Delirium]

I'm definitely feelin' the love. I just wish I had time to binge play like I did in my wild, irresponsible youth.

[Barzalene]

I'm definitely feelin' the love. I just wish I had time to binge play like I did in my wild, irresponsible youth.

I feel bad now. Because the answer is yes for me too and my post was so negative. I have had a great experience this go round, in game, with staff via the request tool and on the boards.

[Molten Heart]

If there were one thing about this game that's kept me hooked over the years it'd have to be what's been dubbed "gee-whiz factor".  This is when you discover or experience something new about the game that makes you think "Wow, that's cool!"  This game has many mysteries, secrets and experience that are just waiting to be discovered.  The downside is that after a while the gee-whiz factor wears off.

Most of the players that have been around a while, have pretty much seen everything.  While I'm not not personally claiming to have seen everything, there's probably little that I haven't seen or much that would surprise me anymore.  

A fluid and changing world is a sure way to make sure that the game world isn't static and gives veteran players something new to discover and experience.  The most recent HRPT does exactly this.  I think it's awesome and am glad to see this kind of thing happening again, and so frequently.  While I may not agree with some things (I loved the idea of Hlum nobility in Tuluk, I guess I'm falling out of love with Tuluk... maybe I'll manage to avoid smiting if I court Tektolnes), I love the idea that things are changing, especially when PC actions can and do influence those changes.  One thing that is stifling is when player's actions and influence are the only things driving change.  I'm of the opinion that while players should be able to initiate and influence changes, staff should be the driving forces relegating players to influence.  While players should be expected to do things to make them happen, they should be able to expect that the game world is available to them to change when they do something.  All players want feel like they (or anyone else) can leave their own mark on the game world.  That's one of the things that makes our game so great, it's filled with a history created by the players.

After a few runs in the same clan, they can get boring with the only thing that is making them any different is their leader.  There used to be (and this still might be the case) there were certain leaders that players would flock to.  When people noticed these leaders, their clan's numbers would soar.  Everyone knew that if they joined the clan with that leader they were going to have fun.  LoD is the only one I feel comfortable naming, but there are several others that come to mind.  People have fun in these clans because these leaders are proactive.   They change the daily routine of their clanmates, they often inspire and empower the other members and give them purpose.  It depresses me when I see role calls go out for sponsored leadership roles only to see another one go out only a month or two after.  I think, "there goes another one".  Being a leader in this game isn't for everyone.  It takes some time, dedication, skill, knowledge and ambition.  For the many of us that don't posses these natural abilities, we get inspired when leaders and staff are able to synergize more effectively, when staff let leaders know clearly what they want from their leaders while not only struggling leaders direction but the freedom to do their own thing, allowing them to engage their own creativity and take owner ship of whatever it is that they're doing.  Often times the players vision and the staff's don't mesh, but when a clan leader and their clan staff can connect on new exciting ideas for a direction for their clan, this is where the magic beings to happen.  Conversely, sometimes it's for a clan leader to feel like their on their own, I think this can contribute to leader atrophy, where some leaders lose their ambition and eventually give up.

Basically it comes down to Staff and their time, something that's always been scarce and in demand.  I'm just glad that staff are currently doing much of this.  Just knowing about the world changing events of the last HRPT alone make me want to play more, knowing that there's something new lurking in the future.

[Zoltan]

I'm definitely feelin' the love. I just wish I had time to binge play like I did in my wild, irresponsible youth.

That pretty much sums up my current experience. Every time I play, I'm left feeling warm and fuzzy. I just don't play at all like I used to. It was actually that lack of available play time that killed Arm for me up until recently. It profoundly changed the game for me, especially when contrasted with past "successful" characters I've run. But that's not something staff can make better, it's just something I had to adjust to.

I like the current direction of the game. I get the impression even as a fly on the wall that if I had the time and drive these days, I could make some new and interesting things happen while working with the staff. I feel like we've entered a good compromise on the player/staff-driven aspect of the game. It's good that all staff resources are focused on the current game these days, and it really shows.

As for the feeling of discovery, there's only so much that the world itself is going to give you. The real twists and turns are going to come from the characters themselves. I do have my own gripes about certain tropes that seem to be played over and over and over again. In fact, at my most "bitter, jaded veteran" moments, I'm prone to drop a sarcastic remark about the nature of PCs and pretend shock that something happened. Getting to know other Arm players can lead to this effect. Stupid me, I got married to one and RUINED ARM FOREVA. Note that none of this has anything to do with the codebase of the world, or staff actions; people change and so do perspectives.

[Harmless]

There are some good thoughts in this thread. I'll just answer the question from my perspective. I don't have any insight yet. Also I agree with the "let's be cordial with each other" and the "can we pretend we're not in the interbutts." I think that the whole, "I can troll anybody I want or I can be as cruel as I like because it's the interbutt" philosophy sucks ass. I don't mind cruelty with a purpose, but thoughtless trolling is just that, thoughtless trolling, which dumbs down the environment both IG and on the GDB, so I am all for toning that down.

First played over a decade ago, been playing religiously (sigh, to the detriment of RL) for at least half as many years. I need roleplay in my life to survive daily stresses. In the past, when I was so new to the game I could only tolerate its difficulty in spurts, I would play P&P/tabletop games with friends to RP for the most part. Nowadays, because my schedule sucks, this MUD is the easiest way to get a quick fix of RP goodness.

Do I feel the love, being here this long? At times, I do, but half of the time it's tough love. Other times, I don't feel any love at all. I have felt like the imms have just outright hated on me in the past. But, I know they want me to play -- it's just, do they just want someone to kick around and treat like shit for the lulz? Am I a permanent loser in this game? I don't know. Also, I can't climb the social ladders, not the ones IG, not the GDB for sure. These are all really discouraging.

If you've ever gone into the learning theory literature, I am most definitely right at the "competent" phase (from novice to advanced beginner to competent to proficient to expert). The competent phase is defined by being emotionally invested in your outcomes. In my case, I feel a lot of pain when I fail to do something in this game, but also feel intense joys now and then when I rarely succeed. This phase in the player's development is the most difficult to get through -- in life, I usually fail to progress at many skills once I reach this phase. But if I'm going to keep going, dammit, because if I don't give it my all I can't look back and say that it was worth it. I apply the same philosophy to keep me going in my RL career path.

I also have the desire to see change: I want to see this game grow and inspire more and more people. It is a fantastic roleplaying environment. The world is just inspiring sometimes. I want to see the staff become larger, too. I think if there were 50 more players on every day, and 5 more staff to keep them all active and keep the world moving forward, that would just be amazing. I want to see this game attract major attention from the world, and I want to see this game used as a model for what immersive gaming is supposed to be.

So, I ain't quittin'. But, as I said above -- I don't feel the love a lot of the time.

[James de Monet]

Was anyone else vaguely hoping that this thread was going to be a poll with just the options "Yes" or "No"?  Might just be me.

In terms of the game, I definitely feel the love. Staff have been amazing lately, and big things are happening. I like that.  Our player numbers have jumped though the roof, and even late at night you stand a good chance of running into people in the population centers.  If you never played when logging on after midnight meant seeing 'There are 2 players in the world, other than yourself' then you don't know how awesome that is.  The Merchant clans are all staffed. The open noble Houses are all staffed. Could they use more people? Yes. But they're all there, and the gameworld gets a huge bump in variety and depth, as a result.

As to the GDB...don't look for love on the GDB.  Self-love is the rule of law here.  People may start to respect you, after you've been around a while, but what good is that? It won't keep newbs from mouthing off at you, it won't save you the moment someone who's been around longer disagrees with you, and since most veterans use alts in clan forums anyway, it won't even really help you to get to know people, seeking that ever elusive camaraderie some people seem to have.

Personally, my philosophy has been more to try to bring love to the GDB. Add to the gameworld. Make art. Write stories. Write utilities. Make interesting posts. If people like them, maybe you walk away with a little of that affection in change. And if not, well, at least YOU like them, right? Will it keep you from turning into a GDB troll necessarily? No. But at least it might put you on the black and help the next player to enjoy the game a little more.

[Fredd]

Tough love. Sometimes. At best? I don't know. I love the game itself. And I appreciate the hard work the staff put into the game. But I've been playing for 5 years, and I can't get above 2 karma for different reasons at different times. And it seems silly. I have never missused power in the game, I've played a good raider before, and drov, there is even a statue to remember one of my No karma, no special app, completely normal guild/subguild commoner somewhere in the game world, built by someone else.

Why is this important to me? I know the usual arguement,  "Don't worry about karma." Well after 5 years, it is nice to know that I am appreciated. Plus, the whole reason I started playing Arm 5 years ago was because I wanted to play a shadow mage.

[James de Monet]

Fredd, there was a reorg on the karma tree. Shadow mages are now 4 karma, which is withinh spec app distance of your current karma.


Also, I just wanted to be clear that I am not saying all veteran players are self-involved trolls who are only here to crush the spirit of newbs in favor of the way THEY want the game or the culture to be. But I am saying they all can be, myself included. It's a daily balancing act, but I think most everyone comes down on the aide of the community.

[Drayab]

I bet I can guess what Fredd's question was about... 

Don't feel too bad. I'm up to ten years and only have two karma. Granted, I took some long hiatuses, and I've never asked for my account notes. I once special app'd a shadow mage because they also seem cool to me, but my app was rejected because I hadn't played another kind of mage yet. And since I'm not interested in playing a water or stone mage, I guess I'm just going to be forever playing mundanes.... which is fine by me, actually. The love I feel playing this game comes mostly from interactions with other players - the interpersonal relationships that my characters form. My interactions with staff have been pleasant all around. Of all the RPIs that I have played (pretty much all of them), I would say that Armageddon has the most professional staffing, which is a main reason that I keep coming back. So yes, I feel the love from staff, too, but is more of an efficient, benevolent dictator sort of love.

What can staff do to keep more vets around? Just keep up the good work. I like the game how it is already. As was pointed out by Marauder Moe, vets typically leave for reasons beyond staff control. When I leave for a while, it is usually due to either burnout or RL issues.

[Marauder Moe]

You should go ahead and play a stone mage.  They are pretty rockin'.

Water mages are rather slick too.

[Wastrel]

lol

[LauraMars]

You should go ahead and play a stone mage.  They are pretty rockin'.

And it's said the ladies love them.

[Delirium]

But those wind mages know how to blow.

(I miss that bard.)

[Marauder Moe]

Krathi girls are hot.  I dig redheads.

Elkrans keep things lively.

Drovians are at their best when the lights are off.

Nilazi... hmm... eh...  I got nothing.

[Wastrel]

stop it

[Narf]

Fredd, there was a reorg on the karma tree. Shadow mages are now 4 karma, which is withinh spec app distance of your current karma.

Yeah dude, special app one. Play one now!

I kinda hear you though. I've been playing for a while and all I ever wanted to play was a half-giant. Then they put in a more coherent special app system that I understand and feel comfortable with so I did. And it was fun.

True story.

Vaguely thread related even.

[Delirium]

http://www.armageddon.org/original/type/Songs/search/ladies%20love%20a%20stone%20mage

For those who are confused.

[slvrmoontiger]

But those wind mages know how to blow.

(I miss that bard.)

>think frustration Maybe if I just found the right Whiran girl to settle down with I would feel the love.

You think, with frustration:
     "Maybe if I just found the right Whiran girl to settle down with I would feel the love."

[Drayab]

You should go ahead and play a stone mage.  They are pretty rockin'.

Water mages are rather slick too.

Heh, I might one day. I'm about to start a new character soon, and I'm planning on using a (mundane) special app that I've had waiting in the wings for a long time now. So... maybe next time? I guess the most appealing idea of playing a magicker to me would be going through the manifestation process after having already socially integrated my character into a job and circle of friends. Somehow I have so far always come up with a more interesting mundane concept.

A bit more on topic: the addition of extended subguilds did help inject some new life into the game for me. That was a good idea.

[Cutthroat]

First of all, I think veteran players are more likely to quit the game over a lack of time to play than they are over frustration about the game itself. You'd have to be really pissed to permanently give up a hobby of several years (and vets who do leave out of frustration tend to cool off and come back).

But I think a lot is being done lately to improve the experience of all players. The recent happenings in the game are a hopeful sign of more player-driven plots to come. Extended subguilds and the retuning of the karma system are pretty good. And additional players in the game thanks to increased voting helps overall with plots, clan population, etc. What may improve the experience further is looking at the more restrictive/subtractive changes that have been made, like closed clans, closed slave roles and ending certain types of promotions and considering whether there is a feasible way to reopen them (feasible as in, players are ready to handle it and staff have enough hands to take on the workload) or consider some kind of alternative, so the end result is additive.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Slaves and world expansion. To me, these are the two things that I currently dislike the state of. The latter appears to be happening which makes me very happy. Fix the former. When I play a mul, I want a master 90 percent of the time. Maybe I need to start a thread to collect ideas about how to make slavery a viable option. Of all the things that have changed over the past fifteen years, this is the thing we lost that made me the saddest.